[x] [Behaviour] Brave - Would have engaged the Lahmian, wouldn't have shot the Von Carstein in the most recent update.
[WHF] The Broken Mirror - A Divided Loyalties Peggy Sue
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] [Retcon] No
[X] [Behaviour] Brave - Would have engaged the Lahmian, wouldn't have shot the Von Carstein in the most recent update.
[X] [Behaviour] Bold - Would have shot the Von Carstein, but wouldn't have given chase.
I don't think we need a vote for every possible combat encounter. Certainly no one complained at fighting the Lahmian earlier. This Mathilde just needs to learn a decent amount of caution.
[X] [Behaviour] Brave - Would have engaged the Lahmian, wouldn't have shot the Von Carstein in the most recent update.
[X] [Behaviour] Bold - Would have shot the Von Carstein, but wouldn't have given chase.
I don't think we need a vote for every possible combat encounter. Certainly no one complained at fighting the Lahmian earlier. This Mathilde just needs to learn a decent amount of caution.
- Location
- Europe
- Pronouns
- Ne/Nym/Nyr
And neither me nor picklepikki is advocating for voting on every combat encounter. That would be silly. But a vampire is a big deal, a non-trivial opponent, as pickle said, and we really should've had a vote for that.
And since it seems you haven't read the thread, the reason why the Lahmian was okay was that there were reinforcements nearby (Melkoth and Starke, very powerful wizards, were explicitly chasing the vampire we engaged) and we had an escape route. With the Lahmian, we could've just stalled until backup arrived, or shot once and then retreated. Here, neither option was really available. We had no backup and no guaranteed way out should things go sour. We almost died because of a fight that Mathilde never should've started. We can't reliably take out vampires on our own.
Last edited:
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
Derpmind wasn't addressing you specifically.
The current lead behaviour vote is:
[ ] [Behaviour] Case-by-case - would have taken a vote in all of those cases if the previous vote wasn't explicit about how to respond to such a situation
- Location
- Utrecht
Hell, lord Magister Mathilde couldn't reliably take Vampires on her own.
Even with her top notch gear, she almost got Killed.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
She could pretty reliably take on vampires on her own. What she couldn't reliably take on was Alkharad who was hero-tier for a vampire.
The Lahmian was an unknown of high tier - not a match for Alkharad, but close - while the Von Carstein was middling tier, he'd have been no-question outmatched by fully-equipped Mathilde.
"Vampire" is no more a strength level than "human", "dwarf" or "elf" is. Gabriella took down a centuries old vampire with a lucky hit with a stake she luckily found - Kasmir battered his way through a bunch of Blood Dragons and described them as a "bunch of Bretonnian knights doing their best to outdo each other at most hammy villain. Terrible fighters without their horses, but still faster and stronger than you'd expect."
Last edited:
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
You are the GM so what ever you say goes for your quest but in universe this is explicitly wrong. Vampires are a state change upgrade to humanity. It's straight jump in Strength, Speed, Toughness you name it. It grants mundane humans that had no witch sight the ability to perceive and manipulate the winds of magic. Gabriella taking on a centuries old vampire isn't saying much as she's by her own admission rocking a lot of years of her own and might be over a hundred thanks to Shallyan blessings and is heavily blessed by Ranald as well.
- Location
- Utrecht
I don't mean to be argumentative about this, but I don't think "Mook" vampires are a thing. Or, putting it another way, even the lowest level vampires are pretty superhuman.
Iirc, the lowest vampire you could recruit on TT were the Blood Knights, and the only thing that keeps them from being hero-level is that they only have 1 wound. Their Statlines were still pretty impressive (WS5, S5, T4 and A2), before weapon bonus.
Pitting a mook vampire against a hero tier human should be a dangerous fight. Against a Mook human, it should be foregone conclusion. Vampires are automatically stronger, tougher and faster than humans or elves.
--
On a different tack, how difficult/dangerous is it to Enchant Battle magic if you're not actually casting the spell yourself? We need a GOOD sword.
Also, when does our Deactivated plot armor return? Does it affect Ranald's Coin?
- Location
- Earth
Mathilde in DL has a learning stat that most Vampire would be envious of.
With her gear in DL she does have superhuman toughness and strength (Kragg's Rune).
Fittingly it was the speed that was her problem against Alkharad. She won by having good timing with her greatsword.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
It's an upgrade, but elves are also stronger, faster and tougher than humans. "Elf" still isn't a strength level; Asarnil is not the same as a random elf you'd find in the elven quarter of Marienburg.
Treating vampire as a strength level means acting as though Alkharad and newly-minted Blood Dragon no. 2253 who hasn't even learnt dismounted swordplay are the same thing.
Last edited:
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I think the point is that being a Wizard is an upgrade over a normal combatant as well, but that doesn't automatically mean they win every fight against non-wizards. Not every Vampire is going to be able to singlehandedly take on a group of knights or vampire hunters.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Elves are categorically not tougher or stronger than humans, they are only faster.
I understand the point you're making but the base level of what a Vampire can be is still 'hero' tier for humanity. Vampires simply don't make chaff vampires if you're getting turned it's because the vampire that did so finds you impressive in some way. Kasamirs statements can be read as him underplaying and being humble about his achievement.
Last edited:
The thing with Kasimir is that he's a spellcasting priest of Sigmar when many vampires are specifically weak to faith, and possibly specifically to Sigmar. Turned Bretonnian Knight Errants are likely to be particularly vulnerable to this, as Night's Dark Masters notes that those vampires that were faithful devotees of a god, as Knight Errants should be to the Lady, are particularly vulnerable to the faithful.
In most of the presentation even a basic blood dragon is as skilled, strong, and tough as a human hero. Vampires are physically and mentally superhuman to a quite significant degree.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Vampires are categorically cooler than Elves, therefore you can't expect any Elf to ever defeat a Vampire in a dance-off.
- Location
- Europe
- Pronouns
- Ne/Nym/Nyr
I know? It's not like I got quoted, after all. I was clarifying the best I could, and thus arguing for case-by-case, because I seriously doubt you would make every single combat encounter, including like, random thieves or something, a vote. That would be juuuust a little bit of a waste of time. Saying that that option is voting on every combat encounter is thus a exaggeration, and not one everyone's guaranteed to pick up on. Unless that actually is what you're intending to do if case-by-case wins, in which case I'll happily change my vote to Brave.
Gabriella's luck was probably augmented by Ranald and Kasmir was literally lying in a pool of his own blood from fighting a Blood Dragon. Singular. He probably only managed to batter his way through due to Sigmar, being able to heal afterwards, and taking them one at a time. And also ambushes. Neither of them is really your average person.
Vampires having varying levels of strength does not mean you should engage any you see. They're still way stronger than humans, and Mathilde is currently greatly weakened and only somewhat above a normal human. We're missing most of our high level spells (including the offensive ones), and all of our good gear. Even assuming it's a somewhat even fight, an even fight that we didn't initiate still deserves a vote.
Last edited:
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
That's nice propaganda for vampire supremacists, and is thus popular amongst pretty much all vampire clans, but it's explicitly not true in WFRP per Night's Dark Masters - people get turned because the Vampire thinks of them as a friend, or because they fall in love, or because they want someone to boss around - and doesn't seem to be DL canon either.
It only takes 1 (ex-)Blood Knight who doesn't have particularly discerning standards and wants to feel powerful to make 100 folk on the level of basic infantry (or even untrained human) into 100 vampires who I have called "mook-tier vampires" because they're mook-tier for vampires. Not because they're mook-tier for a human.
Obviously that terminology is confusing, so I'll stop using it in future.
Last edited:
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
I'll grant I haven't read Nights dark masters in literal years but that's where I got that from. Could be my memory is faulty though guess I'll give it a re-read later this week.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
Each of the clans has an explicit policy on who to recruit, and then a mention of how that policy doesn't always apply - and every vampire is capable of siring any number, unless a more powerful vampire gets upset and kills them for it, so one exception can lead to many more.
Von Carstein's official criteria is basically "being posh" - which means most of them don't start out as highly skilled warriors or mages, they start out as nobles, diplomats or politicians - and even then:
There are tales of the Vampire counts transforming common stable boys or serving wenches because they liked their looks, not to mention their favourite horses, dogs, and cats. Such exceptions are frowned upon (especially since favourites can be stuffed or resurrected as Zombies), but eccentricities are also seen as the right and privilege of the noble blooded. If one is eccentric enough, he may become the talk of the season and thus redeem his social standing— one stableboy is an insult, but a harem of half a hundred is a grandiose diversion. In short, when it comes to the Blood Kiss, as with almost everything in the life of these idle rich, there is a great deal of propriety to be observed—but every rule can be broken if one is powerful enough to do so.
Pretty sure the pets are tall tales though...
EDIT: The vampires that took the tax records out of Wurtbad Castle were probably of the stableboy variety. It's hard to imagine a nobleborn of the Von Carstein clan performing that sort of gross manual labour.
Last edited:
- Location
- Utrecht
Idk... Neferata definitely had a Cat before the stupid end times.
But then again she invented the Elixir... so her Cats are probably on the level of Master vampires
Edit: dug this up
Article: Bastet:
Bastet is Neferata's familiar, a slender black Khemrian cat who was entombed with her beloved Queen. Now she is just a feline shadow that follows Neferata and protects her from danger. In the Old World it is said that black cats presage bad luck, and maybe in this case it could be true… At the beginning of each of her turns Neferata can send Bastet to any enemy unit on the battlefield, regardless of distance. Place the model of Bastet next to the affected unit. Bastet looks just like an ordinary black cat and therefore will be ignored by the enemy (the model can be moved through, it doesn't stop the enemy from marching, etc.). The target unit will be afflicted by miserable bad luck and everything that can go wrong will. To represent this, the unit must re-roll any successful Armour Save it takes while under Bastet's influence.
Last edited:
consequences
Not A Nice Person At All
- Location
- Jerkville
Ranald: "That's a Grudgin"
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
To paraphrase "All cats are born of Ranald, but not all die that way - that is a moderately bad reason on a list of very strange reasons".
- Location
- USA
[X] [Retcon] Yes
[X] [Behaviour] Case-by-case - would have taken a vote in all of those cases if the previous vote wasn't explicit about how to respond to such a situation.
[X] [Behaviour] Case-by-case - would have taken a vote in all of those cases if the previous vote wasn't explicit about how to respond to such a situation.
- Location
- Leeds
I don't think the statement is "On average all these a typical representative of these races have a 50/50% chance of beating each other" what is meant when we say they aren't tiered is that "the difference in power from Hero to Mook for each race is much more significant than the race itself, and so the large overlap in possible ability means that race is less important by comparison."
We expect a human hero to beat a non hero vampire consistently right?
If you hadn't told me we would live I would have voted to retcon the choice so a part of me wants to vote for the retcon but having the knowledge that neither we or wolf die I'm thinking that this would be better as another learning moment like from the goblin chase where we need to lock in actions to avoid getting a bad trait. Attacking now doesn't seem out of line with her normal behavior from the last thread except this time she lost the gamble because she doesn't have the knowledge and equipment that she was used to having. I would think that we should switch to cautious until we get back to normal and having something go wrong is needed to justify taking a more careful stance in the future.
[X] [Retcon] No
[X] [Behaviour] Brave - Would have engaged the Lahmian, wouldn't have shot the Von Carstein in the most recent update.
[X] [Retcon] No
[X] [Behaviour] Brave - Would have engaged the Lahmian, wouldn't have shot the Von Carstein in the most recent update.