[ ] Enough Gun - Gives Dien an extra week to prepare, but lets us buy as many as two different 7P techniques. Cold Light + SitS would be a potent combination, for example.

[ ] On the Trail - Lets Hunger start the war, and slows down Dien.

[ ] Do Something Else - Speeds up the reunion with Gisena + Nova, ensuring that they can visit the Realm of Evening.

[ ] Keep it Simple - Provides communications between the two prongs of the attack, allowing Gisena & co. to continue operating independently.

[ ] A Hard Counter - Provides wordcount to the Elementalists + Armaments, while Gisena attacks the problem at a strategic level.

[ ] A Promising Lead - Provides L O R E about the Foremost.

[ ] A Broken Kaleidoscope - Lets Gisena fix another Apocryphal proc, at the cost of ruinous damage to herself & the death of the Azure Ring.




It's been a while since I did a proper effort post. I still don't really have time to spare, but I think that the thread is completely ignoring the selling points of 'On the Trail' and 'Do Something Else'. Meanwhile, debate about Gisena is going to focus on 'Broken Kaleidoscope' & 'A Promising Lead' without realizing the choice being offered between the two different 0-Arete options.


Trying to be brief, 'On the Trail' is good because "In a battle of cosmic resources, there was nothing so crucial as initiative". Giving Hunger the time to stumble his way into hands-on experience with fighting the bad guy has the added benefit of somewhat limiting the exponential growth of Dien's Rank & army-generation. Applying any kind of logistical pressure means that Dien can no longer turtle & build up contingencies with impunity. He will be forced to react & consider second-best strategies in the face of Hunger's more imminent threat.

Similarly, 'Do Something Else' (Search for the Party) has the massive benefit of ensuring that our allies are close enough to enter the Realm of Evening. We will have a serious problem if Gisena loses the 3-week stint and has to try to match the Surgeon with only her current loadout of Graces.

This is a question of expectations. Do you think Hunger will be able to beat Dien if the Surgeon gets another 7 days of exponential Rank grinding? Maybe. But will it be easier if the party has managed to coordinate attacks, or combine research material? Definitely.


Meanwhile, the choice of Gisena's plans is going to dominate the thread, because Arete. Since we spurned Shoguness, I'd be foolish to turn down the opportunity to talk to a different Foremost Shard. However, if Gisena can complete a Hard Counter for Dien's findross biotinkering, then Hunger's job will be made much simpler.

The choice here is about which party member's contribution will shine out most. 'Broken Kaleidoscope' lets Gisena resolve yet another Apocryphal proc. 'Hard Counter' gives some screentime to the Teenage Surgecrafters, while Gisena works in the background. 'Keep it Simple' calls the entire 2nd expedition back to Hunger's sign with the maximum possible speed. 'Promising Lead' grants Foremost L O R E.

My inclination is to think that the Teenagers should get their moment, which leaves Gisena free to work on the Orc-repellant. A Hard Counter is literally why we invested in True Shadowcord + True Vigorflame + Company of the King.


So, there are some good voting combos:

[] Do Something Else
-[] Search for the party
[] A hard Counter
This combination lets Gisena deliver an anti-Orc weapon into Hunger's hand with the minimum possible delay. This is a good combination.

[] On the Trail
[] Keep it Simple
This combination lets Hunger start the war, and allows for coordinated attacks on multiple locations simultaneously. It would ensure that the squad can rendezvous before Pillars activates.


And here is a bad voting combo:
[] Enough Gun
[] & SPENDING ARETE
It's important to SAVE if we go with Enough Gun, because buying SitS + Cold Light won't be cheap.

TLDR: Don't reflexively vote for Praxis, because it gives Dien more time to grind. Do vote for a Hard Counter because it lets the Teenagers do something cool.
 
I'll agree Hard Counter is a extremely good pick in this situation, but I think the big problem with picking it is ostenibly we don't know that Dien is actually incapable of choosing using a different biological base for his army, and even if he can't, Orc's are basically walking anti-magic even without advanced foremost bs.

Of any mook busting ability, one targetting specifically Orcish physiology just seems like the kind that Dien would paradoxically be best suited to whip up a countermeasure for.

Just finding his shards and taking them out seems like a more permanent solution to our problems and one Dien specifically seems less suited to counter, which I suspect is why Hard Counter doesn't cost us Arete.

Edit: besides, Diens not the only Foremost we're going to have deal with, just the first.
 
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We can barely scrounge up a pick for a single Praxis technique, so saving up Arete when Gisena has delivered us a solution to finding Foremost on a silver platter sounds overly conservative to me. Ofc On the Trail mentions the possibility of finding a Surgeon-produced challenge worth some picks, so that might be an alternative way to spend the Arete, but I'm uncertain how likely such a thing is.
 
I don't know why people are complaining about By Other Means when Dien eating everything is probably the best case scenario for Hunger personally. Consider how rough things could be if Dien decided to eat only 99% of the people and turned the remaining 1% into like... a segmented hypertech baby armour exoskeleton for an upgraded Armament. That would both counter Artful Thorn and do a real number on our boy's Mental Stability. In comparison, this will only reaffirm his resolve to kill Dien, who has proven himself to be a sick son of a bitch who doesn't deserve to live.

By Other Means is honestly an unambiguous positive here, especially since we can rely on the Nimbus to spread tales of our heroism and relative mercy in comparison to Dien's monstrous evil. It's a very solid vote combo, assuming we manage to put this guy down.
 
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Hmm, the idea seems a bit amoral given what these Ringwastes etc were created from, but if these sorts of instruments are good enough to improve Dien's Rank and stats, couldn't Hunger steal them to do the same? Abduction is a talent of his, after all. And Conqueror's Nimbus will shade these actions in an unquestionably positive light!

We would probably have to transform Hunger's physiology to be more orc-like to better absorb findross, but Hunger has yellow eyes anyway, what's some green skin to go with them...
 
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Hmm. Actually, on the topic of Conquerer's Nimbus, I wonder if we can seek out the Republic's leaders and get them to surrender to us. When you have a choice between an insurmountable tyrant with unknown wants and an insurmountable tyrant who wants to genocide your species to fuel his ascent, well, I know what I'd pick.

From there, if we pick up Sword in the Stone, we'd be able to slow down Dien's growth speed somewhat and allow the areas that he attempts to consume some ability to resist his power, at which point we just need Gisena to hunt him down and we can hit him with the Hour of Reckoning + Closed Fist and kill him dead.
 
I don't know why other people are complaining about By Other Means when Dien eating everything is probably the best case scenario for Hunger personally. Consider how rough things could be if Dien decided to eat only 99% of the people and turned the remaining 1% into like... a segmented hypertech baby armour exoskeleton for an upgraded Armament.

He can't do anything that would cause Etrynome to turn on him... yet...

That would both counter Artful Thorn and do a real number on our boy's Mental Stability. In comparison, this will only reaffirm his resolve to kill Dien, who has proven himself to be a sick son of a bitch who doesn't deserve to live.

DIEN: Only the capable deserve to live, and sometimes not even them! That is the lesson of natural selection.

Hmm, the idea seems a bit amoral given what these Ringwastes etc were created from, but if these sorts of instruments are good enough to improve Dien's Rank and stats, couldn't Hunger steal them to do the same?

Hunger's not an orc! Like other humans he's technically a member of the Maker caste!
 
I must say, this was extremely predictable. Currently the Surgeon has a greater ability to exploit his strategic assets, enough to keep up and eventually surpass our Progression eventually. Since we are unable to do shit like turning suns into findross and then eating them; we should probably kill him as early as we can. Killing his "main branch" so to speak his hugely important because that's what's overseeing and directing his strategic endeavors; without them, containing him becomes much more manageable.

Presumably the next best opportunity to pursue him will come after our next Pillars proc where we suddenly spike in power; and as such we should spend as much as we can here preparing for this potential blow. So:

[X] On the Trail
[X] A Promising Lead
[12 Arete]

Trail so we actually understand what the fuck is he doing and hopefully who is. Chance of a pick, but that's whatever if we are waiting until Pillars to strike. The information gained will hopefully be useful enough to contribute to Pillars planning. Another Pillars contribution would be a Foremost Shard who hopefully has some information about him. Plus the Shard might also benefit from Pillars time? Unclear. The Foremost-detecting Grace I consider a must, however; the Surgeon's main advantage is the fact that he incredibly difficult to put down permanently; so anything that helps contain and find him is a huge plus.

Plan is simple: Gather as much information as possible until Pillars time, grind in Pillars, then seek him out so he stops escalating in power. The cleanup phase will likely be much messier, but as long as we stop him from growing faster than us that it's fine. While the body won't die if we cut the head of the snake here, it should still be weakened enough that dealing with it becomes a much simpler problem.
He can't do anything that would cause Etrynome to turn on him... yet...
That's good news, actually. If he has to fear not only us but Novakhron, for example, it makes catching him and subduing him far easier, and hopefully it's Rank will also help when dealing with his annoying offshoots.
 
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[X] Enough Gun
[X] Keep it Simple


I'm pretty split on this vote - Enough Gun definitely seems to offer a more tangible solution in terms of actual power to counter and kill Dien but it doesn't build off well with Breaker of Suns; it'd be much easier to support if Tower Above won. On the Trail allows Hunger to leverage his newly gain STATs and maybe even acquire some measure of Rank gains (which may or may not be relevant depending on whether Dien's Rank growth-speed exceeds Hunger's, which seems very possible given the scale the Ruhuk Hero operates at).

But given the tremendous amount of Arete currently available, I'd really rather invest it into definitely useful magics and increase Hunger's power level as much as possible. I'm not sure if pursuing the Praxis would be considered 'sheer thoughtless might' or a 'spectacular feat of sudden advancement' but I would definitely bet on the Praxis qualifying for those terms over other possibilities. And funnelling Arete into Praxis training scenes not only offers substantial power, it lets us get more description of the Realm of Forms and a deeper look into how advancing in the Praxis works! That's definitely content I'm excited about and I'd really like to read another Praxis training session.

As always, companion EFBs do little for me, particularly now when Broken Kaleidoscope actively harms Gisena's sanity to the point that whatever results might well be just a figment of Gisena Allria. It's a huge expense that destroys the Ring of Artifice (which took the Temple arc to save!) and might even kill a companion. Too crazy for me. The thread actually did manage to avoid using Shattering Blow despite the stakes of the Procyon fight and I'd really prefer to avoid such losses during the quest if possible. Would seem a bit self-defeating if it turned out Shattering was just pushed down the line and redirected to Gisena.

If we're pursuing Praxis, I certainly think two Praxis EFBs would offer more value than Promised Land, given the nebulous utility and power level of a Foremost Shard. An ally might be able to offer relevant tactical information, but I think advancements just offer more definite benefits and also contribute to Hunger's strength in the long-term.

12 Arete can get us Closing the Fist, btw! That's just great value.

I could be convinced to On the Trail though, it's early days still.
 
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Hmm. I wonder if we could buy some kind of Praxis augmentation to our attacks that let the damage propogate outwards along sympathetic connections. IIRC that was a trick Odyssial had and while he's still probably much stronger than we are, the Praxis can also attain cool effects a lot easier than a Solar Exaltation can. That would let us turn Dien's biggest advantages (armies, powerup machines, clone backups) into liabilities, which would be pretty handy considering how things seem to be going currently. The fact that it covers the big weakness of Artful Thorn is just icing on the cake.
 
[X] On the Trail
I'd prefer not wasting time, better to go against Dien right away now that he's weakened. Training can be done in the realm of evening, when the time comes.
[X] Keep it Simple
Hard counter was a bit tempting, but I'd rather make sure the party gets together in time. Not really seeing the appeal of a Promising Lead TBH, I'd rather save the points.

Bonus points for full red option.
 
Actually, Artful Thorn can apparently strike at nebulous concepts on its own at higher levels- 'At this level, only works on coherent enemies (can target the Rotbeast, but not "all Rotspawn")'. Though I'd rather just go CLoV on his ass.
 
Have you guys considered Gisena's opinion on Broken Kaleidoscope, as well as the Ring you gave her? I don't think there are any who would argue that the value of the Azure exceeds that of what she's creating with it...

That's good news, actually. If he has to fear not only us but Novakhron, for example, it makes catching him and subduing him far easier, and hopefully it's Rank will also help when dealing with his annoying offshoots.

It would be most accurate to say that Etrynome turning on Dien would be extremely inconvenient for him, and slow down his growth curve considerably. But at this juncture it would not be a fatal blow. Still, he's unlikely to take any actions that would provoke them directly, at least in a manner that they would find out about immediately.
 
Have you guys considered Gisena's opinion on Broken Kaleidoscope, as well as the Ring you gave her? I don't think there are any who would argue that the value of the Azure exceeds that of what she's creating with it...
Oh? Is the Azure fine with sacrificing itself to create it's ultimate masterpiece, so to speak? It would be fitting enough, I suppose. This might be enough to convince me to switch votes.
 
SitS would probably won't save us as our territories lack the Rank to contest the Surgeon without issue (the Orc's Rank is higher after all). We should go SJUC to take the initiative in Rank power and affect the theatre of war.
 
I don't think it counts for SJUC purposes. It's still a temporary enhancement, only active while there's a war happening. Doesn't sound like something SJUC can build upon.
Not like that. The point is that it makes Breaker's War rank count as General. In total, Breaker and Tower would have same "general" Rank while Tower would have +1 on War and Blood rank. Except Breaker could also get massive Wisdom buff too(140 or 200 depending on how much points we use).
 
[X] On the Trail
[X] A Broken Kaleidoscope


Y'know what, I don't think there will be any more fitting moment for this, and it's something both Gisena and the Azure seem to want dearly. Why not take the opportunity for something of this grandeur, something explicitly better than her own Ring of Artifice?
 
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