Refinement of Battle definitely doesn't interest me nearly as much as other options cause of that. I'm also pretty reluctant to invest further in pure 'power' EFBs when we already have a huge number of them and with Hunger transitioning into the midgame, it might be more prudent to re-focus on potential-type abilities for medium to long-term growth.
Bruh....
[ ] Refinement of Battle (7 Praxis + 1 ordinary pick) - Increase the practitioner's offensive and defensive parameters to 700% of their previous level; applies if necessary to weapons or vehicles personally operated. Degree of increase can improve without upper bound. Permanent once executed; causes slight Investiture, decreasing your ability to use other draining techniques by a small degree.

*Sometimes one doesn't need conceptual power, but sheer undeniable force within one's existing sphere.
*Becoming 7x more dangerous and tankier means a roughly fifty-fold increase in overall combat strength.
*Scales quickly and with rapidly increasing returns.
Yes it is power EFB but it also Scales quickly and with rapidly increasing returns without upper bounds. This is both immediate and potential power.
Tell me which EFB is better at this moment for better long-term growth than one that scales without bounds?

EDIT: Only Ruling Ring probably to be fair
 
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Could we take some notes on the magics of myth for Adorie to learn about? I'm assuming she wasn't allowed to learn them while trapped by Augustine but given her advantages, they might prove very useful to her in the Human Sphere and beyond. And of course, the more interactions we're allowed to access, the more likely it is we'll eventually find some super powerful wombo combo.
 
So. @vali had an extremely interesting theory that lets us speculate on what the Secret Cursebearer benefits from Armaments actually are. Armaments are Seeds of Genesis. Letrezia with Tears of Winter could have unlocked Secret Cursebearer benefits she could have used.

For Reference:
[ ] Seed of Genesis - Remittance will be sequestered into a psuedo-autonomous vessel with corporeal form separate from your own. The vessel's personality and values will be created favorable to your interests. The vessel is subject to your Curses and affected by them. The vessel gains XP at 70% of your own rate and is responsible for administration, advancement, and control of the Remittance. If its physical form is destroyed, the vessel will re-manifest over time so long as you remain alive.

So under the Seed of Genesis Hypothesis, what would Letrezia/Verschlengorge have gained with Tears of Winter?

1. Verschlengorge would gain experience at 70% Letrezia's Rate.
2. Letrezia has Sharpbright. If Sharpbright was treated as a Remittance by Verschlengorge, then Letrezia could use Sharpbright in Totality. Or Letrezia could give Verschlengorge access to Sharpbright for Administration, advancement, and control. Or something. With an Armament's rank and shrouds, the advantage of having Sharpbright would be immense.
3. If Verschlengorge died, it would eventually respawn for Letrezia.

For comparison, what would the Cursebearer benefits for the Apocryphal Armament have gotten

1. The Apocryphal or any other Armament would grow at 70% of Hunger's Rate.
2. Hunger has a boatload of magic systems and accumulated abilities at this point that could potentially be used in Totality or given to the Armament for Administration, advancement, and control. Blood powers? Through an Armament? It's more likely than you think.
3. If the Armament died, it would eventually respawn for Hunger.

Hunger's Main Remittance was a restoration of some measure of his Rank/Accretion Power via King's Scepter. In the form of a Seed of Genesis, would that have made the Seed into a Power Amplifier for our Rank? That sounds suspiciously like Rank Hybridization if so.
 
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If Armaments gained experience, you'd expect them to be varying in statistics and Rank though. Instead, they seem more or less evenly distributed in that regard, only varying in their construction, Curses and Ultimates.
 
If Armaments gained experience, you'd expect them to be varying in statistics and Rank though. Instead, they seem more or less evenly distributed in that regard, only varying in their construction, Curses and Ultimates.

Which brings me to the next part of my Hypothesis. Remember Evangelion? All those biotech robots? The Foremost tech could be as much a restraining bolt as it is a power enhancer/uniformizer. In spite of that possibility though, there is more variation than you realize. Fervenweirr is the Runt of the Litter but its power is terrifying even to other Armament pilots when provoked. It eclipses even Attramemnar. Implying Attramemnar is a badass by Armament standards. Meaning 100% Fervenweirr is not Attramemnar's equal but his superior. The Doom of Lunacy is not a Crowning Curse. Nor is the Doom of the Tyrant which is a reasonably hypothesis for the Imperial Armament's Curse. It even fits thematically with the name, Tyrant/Imperial. They are both difficult to Mitigate(Lunacy can only reasonably be mitigated via conversion to Geas, and Tyrant is just difficult to mitigate in general).

Given the Curses are equal in value, by your logic shroud abilities and Ultimates should be more or less balanced right if Fervenweirr's full power is in play. Yet Fervenweirr at full power is the more feared. Republic techbase weapons are presumably tangential and likely would be usable at full power regardless of Fervenweirrs current power level. A non-ancient tech advantage could not explain the fear of 100% Fervenweirr. The only thing that could conceivably explain the fear of 100% Fervenweirr from a tech standpoint is if it has Foremost bullshit weapon X that only works at 100% and probably makes cross shaped explosions because Evangelion.

Sources for Doom of the Tyrant speculation for Attramemnar: The Publically Visible portion of The Pauper Prince. Pursuit to the Utmost. The fact it's called the Imperial Armament as mentioned.

The Pauper-Prince

Clad in the gold and grey of Empire, the Armament loomed before him, the long angular bulk of its shadow casting his path into darkness. Bare yellow lighting flanked its sides, alone and unadorned in the vast industrial cage of its launching bay. Through the thick thermplast windows flanking its Deployment Column he saw a whirl and spray of stars, gleaming detritus like a cracked egg as they hurtled through the depths of space.

He proceeded steadily down the catwalk, helmet tucked under his right arm, the ungloved hand of his left idly rubbing the burns on his face. Two on his cheeks, ragged and lean like a saber-cat's fangs; one thick and mottled along the lower side of his neck, well wide of his jugular; and finally the crescent-shaped scar over his left eye which they said was so distinctive of the Seventh Pauper-Prince. It was curious, how often the staff would ask if his burns hurt, questioning why he hadn't gotten them removed. Of course they hurt, but what did that matter? Seventh of seven he'd once been, and now the only one remaining. What had he to remind him of them except for those burns?

Attramemnar was in a good mood today, the lackadaisical slump of its shoulders lending it an unseemly jauntiness as it lounged in its Column. The Imperial Armament was usually a coldly reserved sort, though it'd always belied a special fondness for Seven. Sometimes he wondered whether that was the only reason his counterparts had all died.

"You are a Pauper-Prince," Father had told him, the day he'd reached ten years of age. "The Seventh and the smallest, as I was. You will be scorned, beaten, shot at and burned. The world will be your enemy, your family no less so. Fight desperately as you may avoid the grave. Merely survive and you will be hunted, cut apart like game, your corpse displayed as such."

'To live you must thrive. You must grow strong, stronger than any of the others, alone or alongside their allies. Do not envy the Royals, who appear to be afforded every choice and luxury. They may dance through life, but they will never rule. They will never wear my crown. They will only ever be Highness, never Majesty. Only a Pauper-Prince, or Princess, may rule. Attramemnar will accept nothing less."

"Ugh," Letrizia tossed her hair. "Don't tell me you're a fan of the pauper-prince system House Hegellian uses. That's just to humor Attramemnar. Verschlengorge's decimation is rough, but Attramemnar's selection criteria is even more brutal, and worse, almost completely pointless! It has nothing to do with its fundamental nature as an Armament, Attramemnar is just an asshole!"

Procyon might find it harder to go Tsubasa wo Kudasai like in Evangelion 2.0(If it can) depending on what precisely the deal is with the Plenary Core being reconstituted from a box of scraps. Verschlengorge could. An Armament unrestrained by Foremost tech (If it is a restraining bolt) and having accumulated sufficient experience would I suspect be like a Rihakuverse version of the Third Impact entity from Evangelion 2.0.
 
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Given the Curses are equal in value, by your logic shroud abilities and Ultimates should be more or less balanced right if Fervenweirr's full power is in play. Yet Fervenweirr at full power is the more feared.

Presumably, Fervenweirr's Ultimate is balanced around the fact that he can either only use it reactively or in an uncontrollable berserker rage that would destroy everything around him within a few light years.
 
Yes it is power EFB but it also Scales quickly and with rapidly increasing returns without upper bounds. This is both immediate and potential power.
Tell me which EFB is better at this moment for better long-term growth than one that scales without bounds?
Since it is a Praxis tech, presumably Imperial Refinement can unlock a better version of it. What's not to like about getting upgraded options of all these super cool powers?

Given the Curses are equal in value, by your logic shroud abilities and Ultimates should be more or less balanced right if Fervenweirr's full power is in play. Yet Fervenweirr at full power is the more feared. Republic techbase weapons are presumably tangential and likely would be usable at full power regardless of Fervenweirrs current power level. A non-ancient tech advantage could not explain the fear of 100% Fervenweirr. The only thing that could conceivably explain the fear of 100% Fervenweirr from a tech standpoint is if it has Foremost bullshit weapon X that only works at 100% and probably makes cross shaped explosions because Evangelion.
They could be afraid of Fern's losing all rationality or turning on its allies or otherwise being unreasonable. Perhaps the other Armaments can be somewhat logical and you can work around them, but the Lunatic Armament would definitely be uncontrollable.

It doesn't need to be powerful to be feared, you can also fear an uncontrollable but slightly less powerful being because they could fuck things up more for you.
 
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Since it is a Praxis tech, presumably Imperial Refinement can unlock a better version of it. What's not to like about getting upgraded options of all these super cool powers?


They could be afraid of Fern's losing all rationality or turning on its allies or otherwise being unreasonable. Perhaps the other Armaments can be somewhat logical and you can work around them, but the Lunatic Armament would definitely be uncontrollable.

It doesn't need to be powerful to be feared, you can also fear an uncontrollable but slightly less powerful being because they could fuck things up more for you.

The exact words from The Curtain Rises were:

Fervenweirr - Pilot is an idiot, according to Letrizia, who is also a coward and socially awkward. He apparently only got in due to a combination of nepotism and sheer luck, and has nearly non-existent combat skills. Nonetheless, the sheer power of an enraged Fervenweirr eclipses even Attramemnar in a direct contest. If enraged, probably the strongest Republic Armament overall and certainly the strongest in a melee fight, virtually inescapable once it has your scent.

Further, On July 10th in the Discord general there's a Rihaku remark in response to the prospect of a Procyon X Verschlengorge Ship

eww



[8:40 PM]
Procyon that weakling



[8:40 PM]
does not deserve the majesty
 
Just wanted to clarify that I don't dislike the Voyaging Realm. But at this moment there are more plot threads that are time-limited that also happen to be in the Human Sphere. We promised to deliver Letrizea back but have been much slower than we could have been, and now her family is being threatened by the war. There's a looming prospect of a Ringwar, which we have a vested interest in due to owning and being Hunger.

I'm not saying there isn't enough material in the Voyaging Realm to build an engaging plot - we have Aobaru's quest and the Foremost fragments and need to unify the straggling parts under our domain. But I feel like it isn't as time relevant as the Human Sphere plots especially with the war going on and so at this moment, staying in the Voyaging Realm when Hunger could stand to greatly influence the Human Sphere feels like a lost opportunity.

I really appreciate the clarification, because (1) i obviously got too salty about the original phrasing and didn't need to be so agitated, and (2) in this version of your post there's actually some ideas that we can discuss for Arete!

One of the features of the quest that hasn't gotten enough consideration (imo) is the Geas Task's time limit. We have 2500 years to conquer & hold the Human Sphere. That is a huge amount of time considering that in two months we have ramped up enough to (implausibly) fight toe to toe with an Armament. Imagine what we can do with another month, or more.

There were some strong arguments during the Long Voyage vote about why we should head to the Human Sphere. Letrizia's family is a major consideration, because we aren't roleplaying a heartless monster. Her holdings & the Empire as a whole are also relevant in case Hunger the Bodyguard wants to get paid. There's also an idea that we can direct the trajectory of the war - early intervention is likely to have a larger effect on the end result.

These are some of the reasons that you might be feeling time-pressure to go into the Human Sphere. (There might be others, but these are the ones that occur to me right now.) The thing is, I am not convinced that any of these three arguments means that we should be withdrawing our connections to the Voyaging Realm. Instead, I think we should be focusing on the VR!

With regards to Letrizia's family, her dad & family are alive or they aren't. If they are in Republic custody then mounting a rescue operation into the Human Sphere is a high priority. However, once we spring them from their jail cell, where do we take them? The Republic has already abducted them from the seat of their power once. The Voyaging Realm (and Nilfel in particular) seems like a potent staging ground for the Empire to set up a government-in-exile.

With regards to Letrizia's holdings (& Hunger's Paycheck) we will know more after Hunger & Letrizia visit home. I will not argue against a visit to the Empire for information gathering & cashing our first paycheck. However, the Voyaging Realm has a resource that none of the Human polities can match: Magic Systems. The Republic obviously values magic enough to deploy various kill & retrieval squads. Hunger + Gisena can get considerably more value from a team of Wizards than any mere Human government. Severing our connections to Nilfel seems to scorn a major tactical & strategic asset for the coming conflict.

With regards to intervening in the War, there are two major benefits to waiting before we get involved. First of all, the morals of the thread have balked at directly causing even statistical loss of lives, let alone the kind of Imperialism needed to claim 90% of the Galaxy against organized opposition. If we intervene too soon, we might have the opportunity (& therefore feel a moral obligation) to broker peace. This would be disastrous for our progress towards completing the conquest phase of the Geas Task.

The reason that peace is so disastrous forms my second objection to early intervention. At the start of the war, the Republic has mobilized its troops & marshaled its military-industrial complex. Even caught off guard, the Empire will be able to fight back. There will be damage to the standing military on both sides, and various strategic "trump cards" are likely to come out as things get more desperate. Civilian populations have only a limited patience for warfare, and enthusiasm will be highest at the war's outset. Entering the conflict too soon pits Hunger against interstellar civilizations at the peak of their power. If we wait, both sides will be bloodied and worn out from fighting each other.

There are lots of really engaging narrative goals in the Voyaging Realm (Aobaru's quest, the Chains enemy, Foremost lore, improving quality of life for the locals). The quest so far has been about the Voyaging Realm, and I am totally on board. We can't bury our heads in the sand about the Human Sphere, but that doesn't mean we need to leap headfirst into a dangerous new setting without doing any kind of surveillance or investigation.
 
I realized/possibly remembered something. Why Seed of Genesis in AST Original Is a Remittance you have to pay for.

You can get other powers besides the Remittance eventually. But the Seed of Genesis? It just keeps training and making your remittance stronger. It's an extension of you, a loyal, pseudo-autonomous ally that gets 70 percent of your experience and advances your remittance for you since it handles administration, advancement, and control of the remittance. You still get 100% Experience for any non-remittance abilities you may pick up. It's an Experience Multiplier.

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

A Simple Transaction Original

Prologue It began, as so many things did, with a meme. Live thirty years a virgin, and at the...
No, it's still based on your level of injury. The Seed of Genesis pokemon/dog/superweapon can still train in tandem with you, though, leading to faster advancement.


It's also an Affliction of Slumber bodyguard.

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

A Simple Transaction Original

Prologue It began, as so many things did, with a meme. Live thirty years a virgin, and at the...
Come on guys, why not just take Seed of Genesis and Slumber? You can stagger your waking hours with your pet so together you have 16 hours of coverage a day!
 
Source? What are you extrapolating from to get that number?
The ring Hunger provides ++Progression during active conflict and a Progression malus to training, which I presume would be of similar magnitude. Accretion has TSH so its growth during active conflict would be 400 times faster than training another system, and training seems to be the only way to make graces.
So, uh. King of Winter is even better than I previously assumed. Guys, let's not ignore the opportunity to literally cut the majority of incoming damage to a quarter.
It would be the same as a 4 times increase to health, so while it would be nice to have it wouldn't be that great unless it also applies to things where increasing health wouldn't improve the ability to tank them, like essence damage.
Yes it is power EFB but it also Scales quickly and with rapidly increasing returns without upper bounds. This is both immediate and potential power.
Tell me which EFB is better at this moment for better long-term growth than one that scales without bounds?
Refinement of battle doesn't provide increases up the ISH so the large amounts of power it provides will eventually cease to be relevant.
 
How dare you relitigate this Zamp, I won the Long Voyage vote knife fight fair and square :p
With regards to Letrizia's family, her dad & family are alive or they aren't.
There's a clear third option to 'they're alive or they aren't' though, namely 'they're alive right now but won't be indefinitely as the war goes on and they're juicy targets to take out after whittling away their defenses. Its fundamentally the argument for them this entire time really, and one we have to take into account because we're the ones who control if Hunger shows up before the world sim kills them off or not.
The Voyaging Realm (and Nilfel in particular) seems like a potent staging ground for the Empire to set up a government-in-exile.
We're not really aiming towards this result right now however, especially minus information about the lay of the political landscape we'd be meddling in to even think of doing this first.
However, the Voyaging Realm has a resource that none of the Human polities can match: Magic Systems.
We currently have access to more magic systems than we have time to exploit right now. Its been several real life months since unlocking the ability to construct graces and we've armed Hunger with precisely none, instead actually gaining other magic systems.
Hunger + Gisena can get considerably more value from a team of Wizards than any mere Human government.
I'd agree with this in terms of a comparable sized group of humans or a normal human polity. But we could be negotiating with entire planets worth of people at once, the technological fruits of stellar system industries should not be discounted.
With regards to intervening in the War, there are two major benefits to waiting before we get involved. First of all, the morals of the thread have balked at directly causing even statistical loss of lives, let alone the kind of Imperialism needed to claim 90% of the Galaxy against organized opposition. If we intervene too soon, we might have the opportunity (& therefore feel a moral obligation) to broker peace. This would be disastrous for our progress towards completing the conquest phase of the Geas Task.
On the flipside, the Galaxy is split up into three factions currently. Taking control of three governments seems astoundingly cleaner than an alternative where a polity splits into a hundred sub factions on different worlds, each of which needs to be conquered. Conquering a hundred different planets might be easier to do militarily than a united front, but I balk at the idea that it would result in fewer casualties.
Much better to have Gisena and Hunger subvert a working political apparatus that controls a third of the galaxy than having to do it manually.
The reason that peace is so disastrous forms my second objection to early intervention. At the start of the war, the Republic has mobilized its troops & marshaled its military-industrial complex. Even caught off guard, the Empire will be able to fight back. There will be damage to the standing military on both sides, and various strategic "trump cards" are likely to come out as things get more desperate. Civilian populations have only a limited patience for warfare, and enthusiasm will be highest at the war's outset. Entering the conflict too soon pits Hunger against interstellar civilizations at the peak of their power. If we wait, both sides will be bloodied and worn out from fighting each other.
I am... unsure of of the meta ethics of 'people going to die needlessly is bad, but if we delay Hunger enough he'll be too late to have prevented them from being used as ablative armor for a bloody proxy war'
There are lots of really engaging narrative goals in the Voyaging Realm (Aobaru's quest, the Chains enemy, Foremost lore, improving quality of life for the locals). The quest so far has been about the Voyaging Realm, and I am totally on board. We can't bury our heads in the sand about the Human Sphere, but that doesn't mean we need to leap headfirst into a dangerous new setting without doing any kind of surveillance or investigation.
I'm on board with this, but I have not yet seen any proposal to do investigation or surveillance that hasn't involved poking our head into Voyaging City first.
 
Refinement of battle doesn't provide increases up the ISH so the large amounts of power it provides will eventually cease to be relevant.
By that logic there is only one Advancment that is actually relevant. Also until the 2.0 breakpoint the stats do matter. A guy with 1000 STR 1.3 ISH would beat a guy with 10 STR 1.4 ISH. You have to pass ISH 2 to become conceptually stronger.

Also - @Rihaku how are the matchups when there is 0.2 difference in ISH but one of the combatants have passed the 2.0 mark - for example 1.9 vs 2.1 ISH ?
 
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How dare you relitigate this Zamp, I won the Long Voyage vote knife fight fair and square :p
1. Thank you for the smiley face, i was genuinely worried at first :V
2. SO MUCH has changed since we first climbed the Tower. It would be silly to ignore the vastly improved suite of assets that Hunger has access to now that we're flirting with a +21 Relationship modifier for Adorie.
3. sorry for responding to your post out of order. Originally I was going to just do part of it but I got carried away
I'm on board with this, but I have not yet seen any proposal to do investigation or surveillance that hasn't involved poking our head into Voyaging City first.
I'm happy to poke our head into VC! I even think we should visit Letrizia's holdings. But the attitude that we are finished with the VR needs to be challenged, always, and at every point of intervention.
I am... unsure of of the meta ethics of 'people going to die needlessly is bad, but if we delay Hunger enough he'll be too late to have prevented them from being used as ablative armor for a bloody proxy war'
The meta-ethics come from meta-concerns: the thread tore itself apart at the idea of causing a (large) number of statistical deaths. Whatever consensus came out of the Tower vote was held by a broad enough voting coalition to make the Lord of Stalks vote nonviable when we needed a Huntress' Moon target. We further objected to imperialism as a solution to existential diminishment for Nilfel's economy, which would have certainly harmed the citizens of Nilfel. (The harms of imperialism were not painted in particular detail - quality of life arguably would go up for anybody living under a rank 10+ Mirellyian.)

The thread has demonstrated a refusal to knowingly risk even minor harms to large-enough groups of people. Whatever the philosophical framework you use to weigh the pros and cons, the war associated with Hunger's conquest is going to involve more deaths than we've been willing to accept so far.

At the same time, there is a (probably separate) voting block that disdains rulership and does not want responsibilities to tie us to any particular faction. Thread participation cratered when we tried government building (and we didn't do a great job of it anyway, tbh).

So. The question becomes: what are the morally acceptable methods of going about a war of conquest, that the Thread's participants will be able to discuss with equanimity? Of those methods, which will maximize voter enjoyment and participation? I think that I'm willing to argue that the division between in-universe and out-of-universe knowledge makes it permissible for voters to arrange a plotline where the War has already begun, even if Hunger himself may not be justified in using such a strategy.

(I also might argue in the future that Hunger is justified in making that choice, but we'll burn that bridge when we come to it.)

There's a clear third option to 'they're alive or they aren't' though, namely 'they're alive right now but won't be indefinitely as the war goes on and they're juicy targets to take out after whittling away their defenses. Its fundamentally the argument for them this entire time really, and one we have to take into account because we're the ones who control if Hunger shows up before the world sim kills them off or not.

Zampano said:
<something about a government in Exile>
We're not really aiming towards this result right now however, especially minus information about the lay of the political landscape we'd be meddling in to even think of doing this first.
This was an argument in favor of isolationism for House Artriez, which we have personal connections to. If Hunger knows that Letrizia's family is in danger, he can justifiably try to convince them to seek safety from the galaxy-conquest that he knows is coming. Hunger & Co are immortal, there's no reason that this Galactic war has to be the one where we take over. The problem with diving head-first into Human Sphere politics is that it constricts the space of very long term plans. We can try to take over the galaxy once a generation and still have a few dozen attempts. But we can only introduce ourselves to the Galaxy once.

I have not really thought about what I'd vote for if he fails to overcome the patriotism of House Artriez.



We currently have access to more magic systems than we have time to exploit right now. Its been several real life months since unlocking the ability to construct graces and we've armed Hunger with precisely none, instead actually gaining other magic systems.

I'd agree with this in terms of a comparable sized group of humans or a normal human polity. But we could be negotiating with entire planets worth of people at once, the technological fruits of stellar system industries should not be discounted.
When I mentioned exploiting magic systems, I meant as a strategic or logistic resource rather than as an additional skill for Hunger to learn himself. I think that Hunger & Gisena can do more with 100 Mages than the Republic can do with the same 100 mages. Since the Republic obviously thinks that Mages are a valuable resource, we should focus on Hunger's comparative advantage in exploiting magic.

(I don't think Hunger needs any more systems right now!)

On the flipside, the Galaxy is split up into three factions currently. Taking control of three governments seems astoundingly cleaner than an alternative where a polity splits into a hundred sub factions on different worlds, each of which needs to be conquered. Conquering a hundred different planets might be easier to do militarily than a united front, but I balk at the idea that it would result in fewer casualties.
Much better to have Gisena and Hunger subvert a working political apparatus that controls a third of the galaxy than having to do it manually.

Do we need to subvert only 1/3 of the galaxy, though? If the Republic succeeds in conquering the Empire, we'd only need to subvert one polity. Maybe the Empire are the bad guys - Letrizia did casually mention allowing Versch's curse mitigation to lapse briefly. (By the Thread's standards, that's... very bad.)

Do we need to subvert 1/3 of the galaxy right now? We've got like 20 generations before facing any kind of time-crunch. There are so many strategies that become viable if we wait a generation or two for the splintered polities to rebuild themselves.

What I'm saying is that burning bridges in the VR in favor of a Human Sphere plot ignores a lot of strategic flexibility from staying aloof.
 
The most practical way is probably to have Adorie conquer the Human Sphere upon our behalf. This avoids us having to rule anything and does qualify for our Geas Task. It might even be very low in casualties overall.
 
1. Thank you for the smiley face, i was genuinely worried at first :V
Blessed be smilies for signifying playful intent.
I'm happy to poke our head into VC! I even think we should visit Letrizia's holdings. But the attitude that we are finished with the VR needs to be challenged, always, and at every point of intervention.
Out of curiosity, how would you propose doing this without, you know, having Liz present herself to her parents to tell them she's alive? Seems like something she'd really want to do, for both patriotic and personal reasons.
I think that I'm willing to argue that the division between in-universe and out-of-universe knowledge makes it permissible for voters to arrange a plotline where the War has already begun, even if Hunger himself may not be justified in using such a strategy.
Thread versus hunger lets go
If Hunger knows that Letrizia's family is in danger, he can justifiably try to convince them to seek safety from the galaxy-conquest that he knows is coming.
Right, but if he doesn't poke his head out of the VR he won't know when it would happen or even be able to convince them to do so.
When I mentioned exploiting magic systems, I meant as a strategic or logistic resource rather than as an additional skill for Hunger to learn himself. I think that Hunger & Gisena can do more with 100 Mages than the Republic can do with the same 100 mages. Since the Republic obviously thinks that Mages are a valuable resource, we should focus on Hunger's comparative advantage in exploiting magic.
This makes more sense to me.
Do we need to subvert only 1/3 of the galaxy, though? If the Republic succeeds in conquering the Empire, we'd only need to subvert one polity.
I find it highly likely that a massive interstellar war with hundreds of worlds on the line between near peer opponents is going to result in a bunch of splinter and successor states with planetary warlords or whatever rather than one polity subsuming all of its peers. Galactic war tends to tear down political infrastructure rather than build it up, as I understand it.

Maybe the Empire are the bad guys - Letrizia did casually mention allowing Versch's curse mitigation to lapse briefly. (By the Thread's standards, that's... very bad.)
I mean on one hand sure, on the other hand if they lacked a Decimation Lens and have been managing Versh's curse for centuries then I presume at various points there are going to be logistical issues that prevent full coverage even if they were wholly benevolent. I'm not ascribing benevolence to an empire's military apparatus, but you get the point.
Do we need to subvert 1/3 of the galaxy right now? We've got like 20 generations before facing any kind of time-crunch. There are so many strategies that become viable if we wait a generation or two for the splintered polities to rebuild themselves.
I do have to wonder if Hunger would IC go for waiting 50 years, or if the thread could stomach waiting that long.
I mean I fully believe that just putting it off and then surviving 50 years Apocryphal procs would be enough to power level us to the point where a single gesture with Crimson Flare would solve the geas task through sheer power difference, just wondering how timeskips work.
 
The ring Hunger provides ++Progression during active conflict and a Progression malus to training, which I presume would be of similar magnitude. Accretion has TSH so its growth during active conflict would be 400 times faster than training another system, and training seems to be the only way to make graces.
I think you misremembered TSH first of all. TSH is a 400% Advancement speed boost and improved ability to break a systems conceptual limits though we can do that anyway somewhat as a Progression cursebearer supposedly.

Second, The Ring of Hunger is a 10x XP multiplier. 1000% Percent. If you think they're multiplicative(They rarely are in the Rihakuverse IIRC) shouldn't it be 400,000%(Edit:3900-4000 percent accounting for corrections)? 1400-1500% (The additive version accounting for that word of Rihaku way back) is more Probable IMO.

[ ] To Shatter Heaven - An additional exertion by the Accursed will modify the Remittance for superior intuitive compatibility with the Cursebearer, increasing rate of advancement for Skills pertinent to the Remittance by 400%. Conceptual limits of the Remittance can be broken with sufficient training.

Further, Edeldross is an extension of Accretion/the Empyrean Mantle at this point opening up the question of how Accretions TSH interacts with Edeldross per Sovereign Jewel/Silver of Evening and what constitutes "Pure" Accretion training. Is Ring power pure accretion for example? We could have gotten TSH for other magic systems that may or may not be extensions of Accretion via Rune King.

If this substance was capable of vastly greater feats at such densities, could the same be achieved with Edeldross? Weeks ago he'd integrated the Mire Wolf's ghosflame by projecting it as light from his Cloak of Evening; incorporating it into his panoply had enormously enhanced his influence over its effects.

Edeldross was too vast and too potent to be similarly contained, but perhaps the solution was sufficient density, no diffuse radiance but a single brilliant jewel, a star of shining Edeldross set amongst the heavens of his Mantle. Experimentally he expanded the mantle so that it was a cloak proper again, covering the entire span of his form, and began to focus.

He directed the incipient power of his triumph over the Rotbeast, expelling all his reserves of Edeldross to form a blazing ingot first the size of a melon, then a fist, a knuckle, and finally a glittering nucleus no larger than the jewel of his ring. This he placed atop the Evening Sky, and directed the cloak to encompass and contain it, to fuse the Element as indelibly into his panoply as the power of Blood afforded by his Ring.

If we all we have is a 1000% Percent training malus from baseline? Then if Edeldross Adept is Multiplicative with Philosopher's Wreath(I don't know if it is or not but if it is holy shit). Then taking into account Hunger's 1000% Buff from baseline as an additional 1000% to subtract for a total of 2000 percent, we have a 5680 percent minimum Grace Creation advantage over the Ring of Hunger. If it's merely additive, we have a 1940% minimum grace creation advantage over the Ring of Hunger. I say minimum because I realized I forgot to account for Advanced Edeldross enhancement when calculating Philosopher's Wreath Advancement boosts.

Basic Edeldross Enhancement:
Current intelligence per our most recent charsheet = 23*1.6 = 3600% advancement speed buff.
After Philosopher's Wreath's 1 point intelligence buff it's = 24*1.6 = 3840% advancement speed buff.

Grace Creation(Additive): 3940% Grace Creation speed buff
Grace Creation(Multiplicative): 7680% Grace Creation Speed buff


Advanced Edeldross Enhancement(Usable in bursts, half again without Magnitude Training AKA 1.9)
Current Intelligence per our most recent charsheet = 23*1.9 = 4370% Advancement Speed Buff
After Philosopher's Wreath's 1 point intelligence buff it's = 24*1.9 = 4560% Advancement Speed Buff.

Grace Creation(Additive): 4660% Advancement Speed Buff
Grace Creation(Multiplicative): 9120% Advancement Speed Buff

Accounting for advanced enhancement and the fact we can only use it in bursts by splitting the difference/averaging, our advancement buff immediately after Philosopher's Wreath before we start training magnitude or getting more intelligence is:

Normal = 4200% Advancement speed buff

Grace Creation(Additive): 4300% Advancement Speed buff
Grace Creation(Multiplicative): 8400% Advancement Speed buff
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And then of course, you've got the other stuff, like the recursive self-improvement, more Edeldross Grace options, more conceptual potency for Edeldross Graces, the ability to take those Graces Even Further Beyond what Philosopher's Wreath enhanced Edeldross can provide by getting Total Eclipse(Presuming the Edeldross Grace patterns are Findross Runes that work using Edeldross, that Edeldross is the Space in the Venn Diagram where Findross/Elixirdross Overlap per my theorycrafting crusade during the Synthesis vote) or Elixirdross.

Gisena might reach 75% of a progression class Cursebearer's Growth rate. Aobaru's advancement improves making him a harder target. The additional point of Wisdom and Charisma the Wreath provides. All that stuff.
 
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Second, The Ring of Hunger is a 10x XP multiplier. 1000% Percent. If you think they're multiplicative(They rarely are in the Rihakuverse IIRC) shouldn't it be 400,000%? 1400-1500% (The additive version accounting for that word of Rihaku way back) is more Probable IMO.
If they multiplied, it would be 1000 * (400%) % = 4000% . Not disputing your other WoG references or whether they actually multiply.
 
If they multiplied, it would be 1000 * (400%) % = 4000% . Not disputing your other WoG references or whether they actually multiply.
Fair enough thanks for the correction. It's really annoying when that happens. *Facepalms at self*



A 100 percent improvement is a doubling(2.0x)
A 200 percent improvement is a tripling(3.0x)
A 400 percent improvement is 5.0x

A 1000 percent improvement is 11.0x
A 1400 percent improvement is 15x.

So that's where Rihaku got the 15x from the temple. So Hunger and Accretion TSH is exactly a 1400 percent improvement.

As for the multiplicative side?

1000/100=10
400/100 = 4

That's 40x? 4000/100= 40

Yet a 3900 percent improvement is the 40x multiplier by my earlier logic.

Seriously it's annoying that I keep tripping on these 1s.

It keeps happening
I told you about 1's Bro! I TOLD you about 1's
 
I do look forward to Grace research, assuming the Philosopher's Wreath isn't much harder to pursue than summoning a Mage-type enemy while in Pillars.

Not because of its power, though more of that is always nice. But because we've already passed up Orb once, and Feat: Saber (Heroic) is about to go too. Hear me out: we were offered the Orb from the Fifth Sign: As Above. Both offered supreme dominion over their particular subject, and both guaranteed access to Orb later on. Why? I assume it's because we currently do not qualify. Accordingly I would guess we require exceptional skill and ability within a field to obtain Feat: Orb, presumably so we can use it as part of seizing glory in battle.

With Saber (Heroic) and [V]: As Above down the drain, our next best bet may be mastery of Edeldross.
 
[X] The Tears of Winter: King of Winter

Getting this feels kinda super bad given how boring the powerup is, but it is what it is. At least I get to look forward to new Curse/Adorie 20+ Loyalty.
 
Discord said:
[11:41 PM] R': I do predict
[11:41 PM] R': that you will regret not getting Season's Greetings
[11:41 PM] Aabcehmu: I'm going to quote that in the thread
[11:41 PM] R': Given your overall disposition to the Apocryphal Curse
[11:41 PM] R': the thread has tended to underestimate it

So the word of the QM is a tough argument to counter. The vote was neck and neck beforehand, and a lot of people were pretty happy with either option winning. In light of a strong QM warning, at least 4 people flipped CF->KoW and now the vote tally is 42 - 32. However, there is still a strong showing of Omake power pledged to CF. I'd like to unpack the warning above, and then propose an argument for why CF is a good vote even in the face of the comment above.


The main thrust of my argument comes from Rihaku's very next comment:
Discord said:
[11:59 PM]R': if you changed you voting behavior such that the Apocryphal Curse was less of a problem
[11:59 PM]R': then Apocryphal mitigation would be comparatively less valuable
[11:59 PM]R': given how Hunger approached this latest Apocryphal proc, however
[11:59 PM]R': it does seem like you need all the mitigation you can get

His endorsement of Season's Greetings comes from observing the thread's behavior. Working backwards from the most recent update, we did not vote for Shattering Blow, which had the highest probability of survival. We overwhelmingly rejected the option to Fall Back, and then chose to Hold the Line instead of Call Up an opportunity to use our Progression. (I'm still not sure how that vote lost, tbh.) Before that, the thread (narrowly) picked personal power options from Haeliel as a response to the unknown threat of a boosted AC proc. Before that, we chose to spend 50A on Haeliel, rather than Wolber or Daylian. Before that, we (narrowly) chose Strain, seeking the Fourth and Fifth Signs.

Now, I will admit that I argued hard for most of these risky options. (Notable exceptions were SAVE with Daylian, which likely would have granted us 7th Sign via wealth acceleration, and Call Up, which would have been less expensive in terms of re-rolls). We can dispute whether the Armament was on its way without the Strain, we can dispute whether Praxis training or Signs would have been a better use of time, we can even dispute whether the Procyon fight was "interesting" or "risky and unnecessary."

But no matter what you think of the last few updates, the outcome is clear: lots of people have vowed that we will never have another 5-pick fight. I don't want to call anybody out specifically, but there are quotes in-thread and on discord saying that this shouldn't happen again. So. What is the best way to ensure that we are never forced to take a 5-pick fight?

1. Proactive risk assessment, including awareness of activity on a national, planetary, or Galactic scale. Bloodcasting achieves this goal. It is one of the first wide-range divination abilities that Hunger has been offered personally. (Gisena's divination seems to have limited bandwidth.) Knowing that an enemy is on the way allows us to use a lot of our spells much more effectively. If nothing else, it lets us collect our Adorie Backpack for Praxis spam.

2. Strategically picking our battles. Crimson Flare facilitates this goal. With advance knowledge of enemies, we can devise specific counters using biotechnology & blood casting. Our high-Rank allies may also have insights about solving problems that would not otherwise occur to Hunger. There have been several fights where it seemed like the enemy had an ability uniquely designed to target Hunger. With enough warning & a wide enough base of invention, Hunger could tinker up silver bullets for potential threats.

3. Caution and Variety in which tactics we use in battle. Crimson Flare incentivizes this approach. CF!Hunger knows his enemy is coming, and can attack via blood casting from a very long distance. CF!Hunger has high rank allies, who all have combat-relevant abilities that might be a good matchup. Also, Hunger's base stats & regenerative abilities are further improved, in case we do get forced into battle.

4. Avoiding Bad Incentives. King of Winter rewards getting close and hitting things with our sword. It rewards bringing Adorie into battle, despite her current lack of experience. This option quarters damage to both Hunger and Adorie, but it also puts them in a position to receive more damage overall. If you want to vote for fewer options with an immediate risk of injury to Hunger & Adorie, maybe our build should incentivize approaches other than close quarters combat.



I understand that the knee-jerk reaction to QM information is basically 'compliance.' But if you look at Rihaku's argument, he is saying that we will regret missing Season's Greetings if our behavior doesn't change. We've been promising for months IRL that Hunger will stop taking so many risks. Right now, we have the option to take a Heroic Advancement that will make it easier than ever to change our approach to risks. It will give us advance notice of incoming threats, combat-relevant allies, and ranged/esoteric methods of engagement that Hunger currently lacks.


If you vote for Crimson Flare, you're basically pre-committing to making more cautious plans with additional support from our allies. That's a play style that won't regret skipping Season's Greetings, imo. And it's a playstyle that will reward our heavy investment into our companions.

[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
 
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