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A Simple Transaction I

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Wolfy said:
Of course, while these points contextualize the price and explain why it's not as bad as your kneejerk reaction might make you believe, they also admit that the cost is quite high! Still, we knew what we were signing up where we choose to Hold The Line, so we should be ready to tank losses and make good choices.
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A more serious meta-level critique: Hunger being shattered is going to either massively depress voter enthusiasm or make people ragequit outright. While we do have Pillars and Ruling Ring to somewhat make up the difference, given the circumstances we're currently in, losing out on significant amounts of Arete generation could really fuck us, especially if our decision making continues as it has been. And it will continue in that way, given the character implications of Follow Through.
 
Birdsie said:
It's not that. Every Arete you add to the pool is another percent of Hunger's mind that can be salvaged if people vote Follow Through. Mining Arete right now in any form is giving them further incentive to do so - and I refuse to partake.
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Votes are not everything, we got Overwhelm despite being back in votes due to omake power. If you wish your vote to win you can actually do it with enough omake power. You can summond DSB with your vote marker, sell your vote for several other markers - choice is always in your hands.
 
Gabriel97 said:
Your "cold hard reasoning" is facing some technical difficulties, man, if you actually think going for 'Follow Through' is in any way intelligent. I come from a background of a very particular kind of Questing/Storytelling that has led me to gain a keen eye on what is a smart choice or not. THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM.
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This is the part where you explain why. It's a simple truth that Follow Through is the safest action here.
Birdsie said:
You mistake sheer existential horror for impulse, Wolfy.
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As I've said, you are kneejerking. Wait a bit, try too look at things from different angles and I'm sure you'll come to see light of reason.
No, it's clear that you don't have "prudence" or "reason" in mind. You've stated numerous times you're doing this to extract the most "epic boss battle" possible; that's why you voted Hold the Line and advocated it, even when Call On or Fall Back would have been far more prudent. You took the emotional side, and right now, you're trying to argument the new choice as being "prudent," and "rational." That's because you're not voting for either.

No. I think you're voting for the tragic option for tragedy's sake: because it's the most visceral choice you can access. Because you want Hunger and everything he strove for to die in a blaze of glory or a massive explosion.
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I merely make the most efficient arguments for option I am arguing for. I didn't argue that Hold the Line was the prudent choice, because it wasn't. I'm arguing that Follow Through is the prudent choice, because it is. But just because it's me who is making argument doesn't make those same arguments are any less true.
 
Birdsie said:
Not only did you select the option where our chances of death are the highest - and in doing so, expended Aab's Defensive Wish against his will - but you're also voting for the option that's basically labeled, "Oh, also, please: Delete our character development just as we reached its pinnacle!" like it's some pleasant junket.
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I believe Hold the Line won in part because a number of people namevoted Aabcehmu, who then voted for it. Regardless, no Defensive Wishes have been discharged because Hunger hasn't died yet.

Birdsie said:
@Rihaku
If at all possible, I'd like to ask if I can write omake without converting the efforts into Arete, and instead receive only the voting power that comes with it.
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You'd probably instead want to delay the Arate generation until after this vote, but any kind of special exception like this creates more work for me, so I'll provisionally say yes as long as it doesn't create more work for me, but someone will have to do the administrative work of separating your fanworks from everyone else's for the duration.

Though you guys won't have any ability to spend Arete until after this vote anyway, so there wouldn't be any effective difference so long as no Arete counts are given in the interim.

runeblue360 said:
Counterpoint: OHKOing the Armament is a pretty lame fight scene.
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You shouldn't expect such results against an Armament. The point is to weaken it enough that the resulting shattered Hunger and/or his companions and Nilfel's legions can beat it!
 
Gabriel97 said:
I don't know why any of y'all crazies would go for the "Delete character development" button. Do you not care about the story? Do you just want to win so badly? What sense does it make to build a character for so long, and then just erase all of it?
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Nothing is being deleted. The past updates will still be there. All our posts and omakes will still be there. All his past character development is still here. Not a single word will be erased.

This vote isn't about winning or survival, we're passed all that. We are not picking how Hunger wins, we are picking how he dies. We are voting for which epilogue Rihaku should write for Hunger's story. Shroud and Seize are kinda lame epilogues that are liable to result in both Hunger and Letrizia dead. I'd prefer Follow Through because while Hunger still dies there's a small chance he'll injure the Armament enough for Letrizia to live. It also ties his whole story up neatly. "Every story spoken has been spoken before", and here's Hunger, repeating the exact same behaviors that killed him the first time.

I care a lot about this story, and that's precisely why I don't see this as Hunger erasing his character development, I see this as the final culmination of everything that's come before, the thesis of every vote and every bit of past character development. I see this as Hunger reaching the conclusion of one character arc and beginning a new one. End of book 1, start of book 2. Change is inevitable, and I think this change will be interesting to read about.
 
Wolfy said:
This is the part where you explain why.
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Purely story-telling reason, which Birdsie already explained: ego-death, throwing Hunger back into the same fate that MADE HIM A CURSEBEARER in the first place. A waste of Arete to save half of his advancement is a massive waste, and that's just plain fact. There is no way in hell anyone in their right mind would think erasing a character is 'prudent,' even if you can preserve half of that character. WHY would ANYONE choose to erase a character they've grown to like and empathize with?

Follow Through is not a smart choice, because it has consequences too big to be handled; and as Birdsie said - the Apocryphal Curse will just see this opportunity and finish Hunger off with an even stronger opponent.
 
Birdsie said:
Just be glad we have the Defensive Wish that you already so magnanimously spent on another person's behalf
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I don't think you can get mad a someone for spending a defensive wish when they're voting for the option least likely to spend a defensive wish. As far as I understand, the defensive wish gets spent if and when we would otherwise die, and Wolfy is voting for the option with the highest chance of defeating the Armament (and I presume not defeating the Armament = death). You could be mad that you've been forced into a situation in which there are things which you value more than preserving the sanctity of Aabcehmu's wish, but that isn't the same thing.
 
Birdsie said:
I'm not sure if this is actually your motivation, and if it's not, forgive the unjust accusation, but this is what I can perceive, Wolfy. This is what my eyes see, and what my eyes see makes my heart sickened to the core.
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Wolfy is probably at least somewhat memeing but his arguments aren't necessarily wrong. It's pretty simple:

A) If you want the highest chance of coming out of this alive (if not necessarily whole) Following Through is our best bet, given that's explicitly what the option says.
B) The mechanical costs are high but they aren't quite as high for our total combat power as they'd initially seem due to [various factors]
C) The price in memories is harsh but with the support of our friends, we can heal, as Hunger's already done previously

Yeah, it's pretty rough for Hunger but I don't necessarily think any of this stuff is untrue. If you want to argue against it, you can point out stuff like how this'll change Hunger's future behavior to massively reduce his odds of survival, how enough Shattering is eventually going to end up with a Hunger who can't keep up with the power curve, how Shroud has a decent chance of success already and would be greater due to our rerolls. If you're really going meta, you can point out how the chance of spending a Defensive Wish (after rerolls and such) to guarantee success here is worth preserving our Advancements and memories.
 
Gabriel97 said:
Follow Through is not a smart choice, because it has consequences too big to be handled; and as Birdsie said - the Apocryphal Curse will just see this opportunity and finish Hunger off with an even stronger opponent.
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Imagine if we had some sort of Terminator like opponent that grows as fast as Progression type Cursebearer and if that Terminator kills Aobaru we would be fucked by Apocryphal...oh wait.
 
Wolfy said:
As I've said, you are kneejerking. Wait a bit, try too look at things from different angles and I'm sure you'll come to see light of reason.
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You say, "we knew what we were signing up where we choose to Hold The Line," but you fail to account for the fact that not every fellow voter was suicidal. This isn't a kneejerk reaction, or I do not think it is - if it is, then it's one that flows from a place of incredible clarity.

I've read your effortpost, and I've given its points due consideration, but your points are a drop of pressure against a tidal wave of pure "nope," that Follow Through represents. I think I'd rather Hunger die than what Follow Through is going to do to him.

Grek said:
Birdsie's points are deeply compelling!
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Didn't laugh.

Dark Lord Bob said:
I don't think you can get mad a someone for spending a defensive wish when they're voting for the option least likely to spend a defensive wish.
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The reason we're in this situation in the first place is because of Hold the Line, which I opposed from day zero. And I lost that battle: that's fine. It might be suicidal, but I suppose worse things have happened in the past.

But Follow Through isn't even suicide. As far as I'm concerned, it's worse.

runeblue360 said:
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Your post is true; I don't consider Follow Through to be worth the costs it has tacked on. I'd rather spend Aab's Defensive Wish if he wants it, and even if he didn't want it or didn't have Defensive Wish, there's a part of me that says it'd be better for Hunger to just die at that point.

Wasn't that the goal of Hold the Line? To go out in a blaze? I'm fine with that; I just don't want to see him reduced again.
 
vali said:
This vote isn't about winning or survival, we're passed all that. We are not picking how Hunger wins, we are picking how he dies. We are voting for which epilogue Rihaku should write for Hunger's story. Shroud and Seize are kinda lame epilogues that are liable to result in both Hunger and Letrizia dead. I'd prefer Follow Through because while Hunger still dies there's a small chance he'll injure the Armament enough for Letrizia to live. It also ties his whole story up neatly. "Every story spoken has been spoken before", and here's Hunger, repeating the exact same behaviors that killed him the first time.
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One could argue it's the same behavior that saved him against the Tyrant, since he would have died if he couldn't kill the Tyrant in that moment. How analogous this moment is to that one, is harder to say: but a Hunger that failed to use the Shattering Blow the first time may not have made it even this far.

There were of course decisions earlier that may have allowed Hunger to avoid or outscale this enemy, but those decisions had their own risks and costs and have already been passed. This one is still in the air.
 
Gabriel97 said:
Purely story-telling reason, which Birdsie already explained: ego-death, throwing Hunger back into the same fate that MADE HIM A CURSEBEARER in the first place. A waste of Arete to save half of his advancement is a massive waste, and that's just plain fact. There is no way in hell anyone in their right mind would think erasing a character is 'prudent,' even if you can preserve half of that character. WHY would ANYONE choose to erase a character they've grown to like and empathize with?
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But we can get better. Portion of our memories and personalities lost due to Follow Through can be recovered thanks to our friends - which would honestly be pretty amazing and wholesome.

The point is that alternative is death, the kind you can't bounce back from. Now, I am not necessarily against Shroud - it's bold choice that risks for greater reward, and honestly something I'd usually go for if not for entire Hold the Line requiring good choices thing. The issue here is that current rush for Shroud is not because people understand the choices and have decided to make informed decision, but because they have convinced themselves that Follow Through is "kill ourselves" choice when its actually the safest.
Birdsie said:
You say, "we knew what we were signing up where we choose to Hold The Line," but you fail to account for the fact that not every fellow voter was suicidal. This isn't a kneejerk reaction, or I do not think it is - if it is, then it's one that flows from a place of incredible clarity.
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I mean, it's kneejerk post. You dislike Follow Through because you dislike it and your arguments are either about you disliking Follow Through or about trying to frame my past choices as incompatible with my current ones. I'm not trying to diss your or anything, but if you go "well i don't like Follow Through" there's not much I can do other than go "ok".
 
Birdsie said:
Your post is true; I don't consider Follow Through to be worth the costs it has tacked on. I'd rather spend Aab's Defensive Wish if he wants it, and even if he didn't want it or didn't have Defensive Wish, there's a part of me that says it'd be better for Hunger to just die at that point.

Wasn't that the goal of Hold the Line? To go out in a blaze? I'm fine with that; I just don't want to see him reduced again.
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And that's fair but this isn't necessarily the most productive way to express that opposition since people will reflexively memevote against you. The thread's naturally consequence-averse inclinations are already on your side, you can just crush Follow Through with pure omake power. While your feelings might not be kneejerk, the way they manifested seem to be. If you don't want something to happen, focus on what you can do to change it.
 
Wolfy said:
But we can get better. Portion of our memories and personalities lost due to Follow Through can be recovered thanks to our friends - which would honestly be pretty amazing and wholesome.
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The obliteration caused by the Shattering Blow is not so easily undone, against enemies or self. Does Hunger recall his original name?
 
By the way, remember that approval voting for two options dilutes your voting power between them! If you want an option to not win, it's best to focus on the singular option most likely to beat it, via coordinating with your fellow questers!
 
runeblue360 said:
C) The price in memories is harsh but with the support of our friends, we can heal, as Hunger's already done previously
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Wolfy didn't even mention the built-in month of convalescence in the Realm of Evening!

However, I feel like the majority vote rejected point (a) in the previous update. Even if it is true that survival probability is maximized under [] Follow Through, there are a lot of voters that care about the amount of suffering that occurs along the path to infinite power. Retroactively canceling out that suffering with newfound Omnipotence doesn't cancel out the dislike that I'd feel along the way.

My counterargument would be to say that (a) (b) & (c) do not sufficiently demonstrate the truth of the claim [you should vote for Follow Through] even if they are all true. Furthermore, I think that (a) can be attacked as mechanically untrue and (b) can be attacked on untrue from various aesthetic positions. The last part is probably true, but (c) still neglects the opportunity cost of zeroing out Arete right before we go to the Realm of Evening.
 
Rihaku said:
The obliteration caused by the Shattering Blow is not so easily undone, against enemies or self. Does Hunger recall his original name?
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F U C K I N G F I N A L L Y

I love you, Rihaku, have my babies.

Rihaku said:
By the way, remember that approval voting for two options dilutes your voting power between them! If you want an option to not win, it's best to focus on the singular option most likely to beat it, via coordinating with your fellow questers!
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Well!

[X] His Shroud Was Down
 
Wolfy said:
But we can get better. Portion of our memories and personalities lost due to Follow Through can be recovered thanks to our friends - which would honestly be pretty amazing and wholesome.
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If this were so easily undone, it wouldn't be stated with consequences. 25% of Hunger's memories are worth an EFB in raw Arete.

Wolfy said:
I mean, it's kneejerk post. You dislike Follow Through because you dislike it and your arguments are either about you disliking Follow Through or about trying to frame my past choices as incompatible with my current ones. I'm not trying to diss your or anything, but if you go "well i don't like Follow Through" there's not much I can do other than go "ok".
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I dislike Follow Through for these reasons:
- I didn't vote Hold the Line, the option labeled as, "death or glory."
- It won anyway.
- Okay.
- People now want to vote, "keep living, but instead of glory, become a wretched husk again."

Also, everything Rune said in his post. It will cause Hunger to become more reckless and the Apocryphal won't go any easier on us so it reduces our chances of long-term survival massively, because Hunger won't be able to keep up with the power curve. Shroud already has a good chance of winning because of rerolls and, after rerolls, we still have a Defensive Wish left over. Shroud is the better choice, because it offers actual glory: we can preserve Hunger but win nonetheless, in spite of the seeming impossibility of the task.

Not only is Follow Through a terrible choice as far as story is concerned, it's a terrible choice as far as Hunger's long-term prospects are concerned.
 
Wolfy said:
Arete is big one, of course. With ability to retain everything else with Arete expenditure, pouring as much as we can is the thing to do, although burning our hard earned resource on virtually nothing hurts. Still, it is what it is, and Follow Through does offer a Haeliel Favor point, which refunds 25 Arete we spend on this choice, subsiding cost by a half. As such, spending 50 Arete on preserving Hunger is more like spending 25 Arete - still painful, but it hurts less, for sure
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The only thing I'm willing to spend Arete to save is Hunger's memory of Catherine since that is critical to the plot. No Catherine, no Vengeance. But if voters go for Freedom over Vengeance and burn Hunger's memory of Catherine as well then Freedom Hunger could be an interesting change of pace.
 
Rihaku said:
The obliteration caused by the Shattering Blow is not so easily undone, against enemies or self. Does Hunger recall his original name?
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Well, we can make new memories and so on, you get the point. It's still pretty wholesome.
Birdsie said:
I dislike Follow Through for these reasons:
- I didn't vote Hold the Line, the option labeled as, "death or glory."
- It won anyway.
- Okay.
- People now want to vote, "keep living, but instead of glory, become a wretched husk again."
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But we went into Hold The Line for boss battle that would require good gameplay from us. This is what we need to do to win, it's that simple.

If you want to throw yourself into risk for sake of thrill, by all means do so. But do acknowledge that it's a risk.
Also, everything Rune said in his post. It will cause Hunger to become more reckless and the Apocryphal won't go any easier on us so it reduces our chances of long-term survival massively, because Hunger won't be able to keep up with the power curve. Shroud already has a good chance of winning because of rerolls and, after rerolls, we still have a Defensive Wish left over. Shroud is the better choice, because it offers actual glory: we can preserve Hunger but win nonetheless, in spite of the seeming impossibility of the task.

Not only is Follow Through a terrible choice as far as story is concerned, it's a terrible choice as far as Hunger's long-term prospects are concerned.
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Your arguments are getting pretty hectic, I thought that using Defensive Wish was a Bad Thing just five posts ago? Well, I guess that I can add "preserving Defensive Wish" to the list of things Follow Through has going for it.

Issue with that kind of argumentation is that it pretends that there are just two possible outcomes - death and absolute victory. It's entirely possible for Shroud to eke out a victory and stuff suffer damage similar or even greater than Follow Through. Mind, I do agree that successful Shroud is the best possible scenario. But I don't think that there's the need to take that risk when Follow Through offers alternative that, while on surface horrifying, is actually pretty reasonable, if very pricy.
 
vali said:
The only thing I'm willing to spend Arete to save is Hunger's memory of Catherine since that is critical to the plot. No Catherine, no Vengeance. But if voters go for Freedom over Vengeance and burn Hunger's memory of Catherine as well then Freedom Hunger could be an interesting change of pace.
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Secret Path (True): Tyrant romance resurrection option unlocked
 
[X] Follow Through

Half of these drawbacks aren't even drawbacks in my book.

Loss of character development? Personally I don't find Hunger that compelling of a protagonist (unlike muh Ishida), so I'm literally nuetral on this. I doubt the most important details of his character development so far (for example, memories of Catherine) are going to die anyway, so I'm reasonably sure he won't become something of a blank state. Hell, he'll be better off than when the Quest started!

Loss of power, included Rank? It hurts, but quite frankly the thread has picked quite a few terrible upgrades. This is not me grumbling about wrong choices, it can happen - sometimes you need a quick fix even if anti-synergic, sometimes you think X is good but then Y shows up and it's better. Looking at this from another perspective, this is basically an opportunity to have a respec. As far as Rank is concerned, Hunger has picked quite a few Developments centered around boosting Rank increase - and besides, Progression type.

Another Favor and Refinement of Purpose give me a spiritual boner, so there's those too.

Finally, it's easy to talk about heroism. It's easy to think you can have your cake and eat it too while proclaiming the moral high ground. It's easy to sacrifice others and pat yourself on the shoulder for a job well done.

But this isn't Heroism. A hero is someone who stands for something or someone, even at great cost for themselves. It's no senseless martyr, but it's not a min-maxing hypocrite either.

Those of you who define Hunger a hero through words, do you have the balls to make him one through deeds?
 
Wolfy said:
Mind, I do agree that successful Shroud is the best possible scenario.
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Another reason to vote for successful Shroud: it retroactively justifies[/s] the very good choices we have made as we stumbled our way into a build that can 1v1 an armament.

rerolls exist, after all
 
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