And I like having fun. The issue is that I don't want this quest that provides me fun to stop and I think this 5 pick fight will stop that because Hunger has a high chance of getting pasted or we have to pay a high price and that wiil lead the participants in this quest to tear each other apart.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Sigh, it is going to be one of those days. I prefer not to let that wretched gang win so sacrifices have to be made:
[X] Call Up
Anyway:
Are there a finite number of Cursebearers?
Hmm, actually, shouldn't our Rank be superior here? We have 9.6 which is less than what Procyon packs, sure, but that should get elevated by 0.2 ISH. Going by current theory, our Rank should be somewhere in 1.9~2.0, while Procyon's should be at 2.0. Thus, with OaF II we'd have 2.1~2.2 ISH Rank, which is significantly higher than Procyon's Rank.
.. man, OaF 2 is so good.
.. man, OaF 2 is so good.
- Location
- Louisiana
Also just a point for the people saying we have no chance of victory, Rihaku did state we have a decent but not assured chance without improved odds from tactics or flash picks. I don't think it's the equivalent of some of the insane fights we've had the option of picking before, maybe because it's an enemy we're well suited to beating, we have more options.
Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Pronouns
- Any/All
This is not true. Hunger estimates his chances as being "decent, but nowhere near assured, chance of prevailing with the help of Aeira, Aobaru, Letrizia, Gisena, Adorie, and all the forces of Nilfel at their disposal. "
That help will likely require many deaths on the part of the Nilfellians, and additionally, put our own party directly at risk. Death Chance for not only Hunger but also everyone else are almost certainly present. Plus, this is an in-character estimate, and is likely subject to Hunger's lack of personal experience regarding full-power Armaments and unfamiliarity with Procyon in specific.
The "decent" chance is an estimation by Hunger (who never fought Rank 10 Armament with shroud) - in reality we could be doomed.
Also a very interesting thing I noticed - none of the people who voted for Hold the Line provided any tactics - curious
, but I am sure Dying Gang are peerless tacticians.Also a quote from a nice lad who explained 5 pick fights way better than me:
So Dying Gang who rely on tactics but have not proposed anything - what would it be:
A) Rely on spiky hair and our Ninja Way
B) Rely on power of friendship
C) Hope for Hunger 100 roll and a 1 roll from the Armament
D) Die in a stupid way (with 30 Arete in the bank) and quietly leave after that
I am dying to see your plans - I am sure they would rival Home Alone traps
🧂🧂🧂
- Location
- Louisiana
To be fair I don't think there's any option that doesn't put something at risk. Running away throws away Nifellian lives while risking that pillars will give us enough strength to make that worth it. Call up brings up a very powerful ally of convenience that could easily become another problem, while also running the risk of not actually finding anything and having to default to another option half cocked with the enemy through the gates. You're correct that hunger might be overestimating his chances, and that maybe the direct solution is not the way to go, but don't imply that the other options don't have their own risks and sacrifices.
Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Pronouns
- Any/All
Honestly, I think that more Nilfellians will die in Hold the Line than in Fall Back, albeit most of those lives will be of Legionnaires. Procyon and the republic aren't here to conquer Nilfel, they're here to kill Letrizia. Doing anything else is a waste of time and resources.
Meanwhile, while it is technically a 'risk', we have at least 30 arete in our back pocket, and Pillars of Creation is a much more reliable way to spend them than hoping we can find and defeat a level-appropriate challenge in a few hours.
Birdsie
Sharp Talons Cleave The Worthy
- Location
- Poland
You're doing God's work, son.The "decent" chance is an estimation by Hunger (who never fought Rank 10 Armament with shroud) - in reality we could be doomed.
Also a very interesting thing I noticed - none of the people who voted for Hold the Line provided any tactics - curious
Also a quote from a nice lad who explained 5 pick fights way better than me:
So Dying Gang who rely on tactics but have not proposed anything - what would it be:
A) Rely on spiky hair and our Ninja Way
B) Rely on power of friendship
C) Hope for Hunger 100 roll and a 1 roll from the Armament
D) Die in a stupid way (with 30 Arete in the bank) and quietly leave after that
I am dying to see your plans - I am sure they would rival Home Alone traps
🧂🧂🧂
Here I was, accursed - I had believed I would be confined to eating my fries without common salinity, but then you came... you came, and saved my meal, with a generous delivery of the substrate that generates infinite salt. Thank you, Sharkey, or should I say: Thank you, o, glorious Knight of Sodium Chloride.
Also, nice newspaper bro.
I'm going for Call, but even then, Fall is 500% better than Hold the Line. I can get behind the idea of saving Nifellian lives, but not when it puts our entire party at risk. There's priorities at work here.
Then let's fight for Fall. Once you held the entire thread in your hand - are you ready to fight for Aobaru again? He is a teenager with feeling of inferiority (last update vs Hunger) and he would probably want to prove to himself and the others he is not weak. Armament Shroud is no joke but what is Rank 10 compared to the teenager self delusions of invincibility. If only there is a way to protect him and move him away from combat...
But alas with current trajectory we are going to fight with no preparations (2 hours) and hope for some picks so we can get OaF 3.
PS: RIP Aobaru, you were not meant to be.
- Location
- Louisiana
I think if we want any shot of battling either armament we have to use their weaknesses against them. Each of the two armaments we are proposed to be fighting have their own clearly stated weak points. Procyon is completely incapable of fighting through cunning, he relies on flawless execution and raw power to fight, but this puts him at a handicap if the enemy comes at him from an unexpected angle. This is not an enemy to simply cut through, this is an enemy to outmaneuver. I'll brainstorm some ways to do that in a minute but extra ideas are always welcome.
Fervenweirr is a much easier enemy to take advantage of his weakness, with the downside of being a nigh undefeatable enemy if we make the wrong move. An incapable pilot and a weak base form means we can potentially drive him away, but provoking him through the brand of lunacy is almost assured death. Honestly the best bet we probably have is finding a way to take advantage of the incapable pilot.
Another plan I've seen thrown around is to somehow lure Feevenweirr to Procyon and proc his berserker form. I'm admittedly wary of this because of how powerful that form is said to be, I wonder if we could even prevail against Feevenweirr after Procyon weakens him. I am wary of any plan that provokes Feevenweirr into a battle rage.
Fervenweirr is a much easier enemy to take advantage of his weakness, with the downside of being a nigh undefeatable enemy if we make the wrong move. An incapable pilot and a weak base form means we can potentially drive him away, but provoking him through the brand of lunacy is almost assured death. Honestly the best bet we probably have is finding a way to take advantage of the incapable pilot.
Another plan I've seen thrown around is to somehow lure Feevenweirr to Procyon and proc his berserker form. I'm admittedly wary of this because of how powerful that form is said to be, I wonder if we could even prevail against Feevenweirr after Procyon weakens him. I am wary of any plan that provokes Feevenweirr into a battle rage.
- Location
- Louisiana
With all that said I'm not gonna be rash about it, it's definitely a risky move I just don't know if it should be dismissed out of hand. If it doesn't have a clear majority with a well thought out plan of attack then I completely agree that Call is the option we should go for, I'm even voting for it right now because without a plan I think hold the line is too much bravery without enough preparation.
And NotDying folks keep trying to dodge arguments - fitting, given their proclamations. But that's not how you can win against the Hidden Masters. They are foes that Hunger can not beat, with any amount of finite or infinite time, for they are the cold reality itself. To think that you can even hope to best them by giving in into hell of calculations and excuses for lack of valor is mere folly, for here's a simple truth - if they could been bested by mere effort and efficiency, they would perish million times over by now. Only way Hunger can hope to reach these beings is if he goes above and beyond, over and over again. He needs to raise to occasions and keep going forwards, walking an impossible road. Only at the end of such road lies path to hidden masters of destiny.
But, even that is secondary here. I understand people choosing mere expediency over deeper meanings. What I really don't get it is fun part.
Like, we had the same argument back on Shard of Arcanists vote(which we sadly didn't pick because of same boring people), but this is honestly ten times worse. We have opportunity to face an Armament in overwhelming boss battle! This entire quest we were building up Armaments as the ultimate enemy. And they are here! The stage is set our crew is gathered, the end hours is near, we will have cool interlude from Procyon setting this up etc. and instead of saying yes to the simple question of "do you want to read the single most awesome scene in this quest", you would much rather fuck off and train until you can zero dif this fight, removing any tension from it.
What the fuck. Did you guys have your fun bone surgically removed or something?
But, even that is secondary here. I understand people choosing mere expediency over deeper meanings. What I really don't get it is fun part.
Like, we had the same argument back on Shard of Arcanists vote(which we sadly didn't pick because of same boring people), but this is honestly ten times worse. We have opportunity to face an Armament in overwhelming boss battle! This entire quest we were building up Armaments as the ultimate enemy. And they are here! The stage is set our crew is gathered, the end hours is near, we will have cool interlude from Procyon setting this up etc. and instead of saying yes to the simple question of "do you want to read the single most awesome scene in this quest", you would much rather fuck off and train until you can zero dif this fight, removing any tension from it.
What the fuck. Did you guys have your fun bone surgically removed or something?
Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Pronouns
- Any/All
Your first point seems to be mistaken. Freedom could not gain the power needed to strike down the Hidden Masters in finite time. It is the privilege of Progression, of Vengeance, to do so, and that is the path Hunger has chosen. Hunger is a Progression Cursebearer, nothing is beyond his reach given time.
And personally, I like it when we win epic fights, and I'm happy to vote for the option that actually gives us good odds of winning, not '50-70%' or 'decent' odds.
That is incorrect. Progression is a power gifted by Accursed and is a as powerless as his maker is against opponents of higher caliber. At our level it would eventually allow us to do anything, but it alone will never do more than make us a High Cursebearer. And even that is highly suspicions, as I doubt that mere chance is enough for that, because otherwise producing High Cursebearers would just require simple statistics.
What you need is not someone who can do basic risk assessment and train. What you need is someone who beats odds again and again and, who can shoulder the weight of heavens on his shoulders and still solder on.
What you need is a legend.
So, what's it gonna be? Will we make this the highest point of this quest, on way or another, or will you just do boring things that make numbers go up?
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
I will grant you, if we win it'd be the coolest thing to happen in this quest.
But if we lose, it will not be a high point. It will be Hunger falling, failing in his job to protect Letrizia, who will surely die soon afterwards. That's not a high point, it'll be a downer ending.
I understand being willing to take that risk. You're shooting for what will make the best story, not what's the wisest choice. That's a valid viewpoint in a quest. Not everyone shares it though. I'm sympathetic, and have waffled a little bit on whether to support Hold the Line or not, but for now I'm going for the middle-of-the-road route. The Balanced route. There'll still be an epic armament fight if we go for Call Up, but we'll have better chances of survival.
Dying for good can in fact be a very high point - because you will talk about that in future. It's always a good fun.
That being said, Hunger's own death is highly unlikely. Ignoring the prospect of burning our Defensive Wish for a moment, we are so damn tanky that it's much likelier that failure stat includes Procyon managing to bypass hunger to kill Letrizia and then fucking off once his mission is successful. And while I would be the last person to vote for Letrizia dying, you do need to put something on a line for tension to happen, for fight to matter. Otherwise it's just boring numbers go up game, at which point we could just collectively play Cookie Clicker.