Magical_Duck
The One Who Quacks
- Location
- A Pond
- Pronouns
- Duck
[X] Hold the Line
[X] Full Measure
[X] Midnight's Ambition
"Qu Q Quack!"
[X] Full Measure
[X] Midnight's Ambition
"Qu Q Quack!"
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
how could we possibly Fall Back?
Last edited:
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
Oh, and since I forgot to vote:
[X] Call Up
[X] Call Up
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
Hm.
Fall Back is... Not my favorite. "Less likely to risk his own life on improbably difficult fights" I like, the rest of it I really dislike. It's thematically opposed to the revelation about heroism we just had, it sacrifices the many for the sake of the few, it causes political problems for our home-base when we're about to leave for the Human Sphere (something that just became ever more crucial now that they're sending Armaments against us). There's a lot that's unpleasant about it.
Call up is the middle-ground path. It makes use of the Power of Progression, our greatest asset, without the problems inherent in Fall Back. It's not nearly as risky as Hold the Line, which is also good.
Hold the Line... I admit, it's tempting. The heroic stand against a vastly superior force is always cool. The epic fights with narrow chances of victory in the Temple of the False Moon were the high-point of this quest IMO. And suicidal face-offs against massively overpowered opponents are a Rihaku quest tradition. The old-fashioned "Red Option," as it's sometimes called. If this is taken, then no matter what I think it'll be the biggest high-point of the entire quest. It might also end the quest.
I'm torn. Wordcount is always the most valuable resource and has been rapidly dwindling lately. If the quest is going to slow down so much, it may be worth going for a truly inspiring battle, with the chance that it may be our final battle being mitigated somewhat by the fact that updates would have been infrequent anyways. On the other hand, the first gang I was ever a member of was Not Dying, back in the very first vote of the quest when I fought against the VSword builds. And now matter how cool the fight is, ending the quest on a downer, with Hunger perishing and failing in his job as a bodyguard for Letrizia, would put a damper on things.
Put like that, I think my decision is made for me. I'm not Holding the Line. And I'm still not a fan of Fall Back's thematic dissonance, even if it's the most optimal.
[X] Call Up
Fall Back is... Not my favorite. "Less likely to risk his own life on improbably difficult fights" I like, the rest of it I really dislike. It's thematically opposed to the revelation about heroism we just had, it sacrifices the many for the sake of the few, it causes political problems for our home-base when we're about to leave for the Human Sphere (something that just became ever more crucial now that they're sending Armaments against us). There's a lot that's unpleasant about it.
Call up is the middle-ground path. It makes use of the Power of Progression, our greatest asset, without the problems inherent in Fall Back. It's not nearly as risky as Hold the Line, which is also good.
Hold the Line... I admit, it's tempting. The heroic stand against a vastly superior force is always cool. The epic fights with narrow chances of victory in the Temple of the False Moon were the high-point of this quest IMO. And suicidal face-offs against massively overpowered opponents are a Rihaku quest tradition. The old-fashioned "Red Option," as it's sometimes called. If this is taken, then no matter what I think it'll be the biggest high-point of the entire quest. It might also end the quest.
I'm torn. Wordcount is always the most valuable resource and has been rapidly dwindling lately. If the quest is going to slow down so much, it may be worth going for a truly inspiring battle, with the chance that it may be our final battle being mitigated somewhat by the fact that updates would have been infrequent anyways. On the other hand, the first gang I was ever a member of was Not Dying, back in the very first vote of the quest when I fought against the VSword builds. And now matter how cool the fight is, ending the quest on a downer, with Hunger perishing and failing in his job as a bodyguard for Letrizia, would put a damper on things.
Put like that, I think my decision is made for me. I'm not Holding the Line. And I'm still not a fan of Fall Back's thematic dissonance, even if it's the most optimal.
[X] Call Up
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
A thought on tactics, no matter which path is taken:
We know that Armaments start ablating rank after a certain amount of damage. We also know that Armaments can't manifest a Shroud if they drop below a certain point (rank 9 I think?), and that the Shroud and the Ultimate are the only things that really threaten Hunger. If the Ultimate is weaker when used with lower rank, our best chance at beating an Armament is to damage it to the point where it starts dropping rank, and then force it below the point where it can manifest a Shroud.
As such, blitz tactics are our best bet. The faster we can seriously damage Procyon the better our chances get. Fortunate, then, that RoQ and Artful Thorn exist, they're pretty ideal for this fight.
The fact that our baseline chances are not good even with that combination is not encouraging.
We know that Armaments start ablating rank after a certain amount of damage. We also know that Armaments can't manifest a Shroud if they drop below a certain point (rank 9 I think?), and that the Shroud and the Ultimate are the only things that really threaten Hunger. If the Ultimate is weaker when used with lower rank, our best chance at beating an Armament is to damage it to the point where it starts dropping rank, and then force it below the point where it can manifest a Shroud.
As such, blitz tactics are our best bet. The faster we can seriously damage Procyon the better our chances get. Fortunate, then, that RoQ and Artful Thorn exist, they're pretty ideal for this fight.
The fact that our baseline chances are not good even with that combination is not encouraging.
Its been stated before that Letrizia is biased. When we were back at the Elixir Sovereignity, she initially disliked them for being seperatists even though apparently they have legitimate grievances. Don't explicitly trust her on this one.
Hm... to devil's advocate a bit, Refinement of Battle's probably our best bet if we try and Hold the Line. The circumstances allowing for flash Praxis purchases are unclear but 'fighting to save a nation from a massive, overpowering foe' parallel what happened when Hunger faced the Rotbeast, so anticipating a spending point is reasonable. It's a thin hook to hang his life on, but in terms of thematic appeal? Telling this Shinji knockoff that he shall not pass the Walls of Myth is a clear frontrunner.
If he wants Letrizia's life, he can come and claim it. A hero prevails when in the defense of others. Hunger has accepted the rewards of heroism, prioritizing immediate power despite the ruinous opportunity cost of not being able to resurrect his wife. It's good to live and grow strong. But there comes a time when one must actually use that strength or forfeit the right to be called hero.
If he wants Letrizia's life, he can come and claim it. A hero prevails when in the defense of others. Hunger has accepted the rewards of heroism, prioritizing immediate power despite the ruinous opportunity cost of not being able to resurrect his wife. It's good to live and grow strong. But there comes a time when one must actually use that strength or forfeit the right to be called hero.
The problem is that an Armament has still access to overwhelming Physical Stats and superweapons even without its Shroud. We need to initially burst it down so its Shroud gets disabled then have enough stamina to contend with a probably same level of Rank but a still insane gap in stats. Its why I think Call Up is not an enough measure.
We really need more time, picks and rare advancements to stand even a chance against an Armament.
[X] Fall Back
[X] Call Up
I don't think anyone will insist that Hunger's fight against the Tyrant wasn't heroic. Maybe the war wasn't Heroic, but running away in the face of superior power doesn't invalidate one's later actions. There is something to the words 'live and grow strong', especially when one has the unlimited potential of Progression. When there is no other recourse, there is no shame in retreating. Hunger isn't new to having to sacrifice other people to eke out one more chance, I would even say it's quite familiar ground.
But fuck that.
I'm not quite in the mood for Hold the Line, because 5-pick fight, but I don't think I have it in me to just abandon Nilfel either. The idea of potentially giving Apocrypha more toys to play with in this situation is pretty scary, but we're sitting on a heap of Arete, so it would be a shame not to at least try.
Though I've got to admit that Apo-chan has a weird way of enforcing Spare the Innocent. 'Not my fault if you run away from the fight and the enemy takes it out on the populace'?
I don't think anyone will insist that Hunger's fight against the Tyrant wasn't heroic. Maybe the war wasn't Heroic, but running away in the face of superior power doesn't invalidate one's later actions. There is something to the words 'live and grow strong', especially when one has the unlimited potential of Progression. When there is no other recourse, there is no shame in retreating. Hunger isn't new to having to sacrifice other people to eke out one more chance, I would even say it's quite familiar ground.
But fuck that.
I'm not quite in the mood for Hold the Line, because 5-pick fight, but I don't think I have it in me to just abandon Nilfel either. The idea of potentially giving Apocrypha more toys to play with in this situation is pretty scary, but we're sitting on a heap of Arete, so it would be a shame not to at least try.
Though I've got to admit that Apo-chan has a weird way of enforcing Spare the Innocent. 'Not my fault if you run away from the fight and the enemy takes it out on the populace'?
- Location
- Louisiana
Hnnnnnnng the idea of 1v1ing a god damn armament to save the people, overwhelmed by the truth of heroism, rising to the challenge and giving a nod to haeliel is so appealing, but it's honestly too risky. 5 pick fights are not a cake walk. The guaranteed flash praxis pick would probably cause me to change my mind, multiplying our stats when we already received exponential OaF 2 would make it extra value, and might push us up to armament territory. With that said I also do not approve of leaving everyone to die while we vacation for a month. We literally received a visit from the personification of heroism and the first thing we do after is run and let other people suffer from the consequences of our actions. How could we ever look haeliel in the eye again?
[X] Call Up
[X] Call Up
Tactics, let's see...
It'd be nice to know who we're fighting for sure. If Gisena can't confirm it's Procyon with the Azure's aspect of Truth, Nilfel's intelligence apparatus might be able to. Their scouts are weaker beyond the Walls of Myth, but a nation so rich in magi's surely got diviners other than Augustine. Could also be a mission for Aeira since she doesn't rely on ambient mythos, though reconnaissance is a risky business as the fate of the recent Republic scouts attests.
If it's Fervenweirr we're in a lot less danger (though this is an Apocryphal proc, so we shouldn't get our hopes up) and should focus on exploiting the pilot's supposed cowardice to trigger a retreat without tripping the berserker state. He sounds less able to operate independently than the Shinji-alike (together, the two form a complete expy!) if the rest of the strike force succumbs to social combat. It goes without saying that psychological profiles of the pilots/the capabilities of their Armaments are valuable information that Letrizia can provide.
Hunger has captured a fireteam and their accompanying magus. If Gisena can subvert them thoroughly enough, could they be used to buy time by feeding the Republic forces false information? This is dicey, as releasing them leaks what they've seen of our capabilities, but all Hunger needs is enough time to trigger Pillars of Creation and then we're in a different situation entirely. Or even true information; Nilfel has a lot of advantages as a place to make our stand, but making a stand against an attacking Armament isn't a great position to be in. We know naively teleporting out won't save Nilfel, but perhaps the two in conjunction?
Augustine kidnapped Letrizia out of Totality, a feat presumably enabled by Versch's weakened status. Can Gisena replicate anything like this against a full-strength Armament? Even a moment's hesitation would be useful. The Rank-ablation in response to damage is promising, manifesting a Shroud's restricted to Rank 9+ so with enough whittling they won't be able to manifest it and may become vulnerable to Augustinian shenanigans.
Sharpbright manipulates Pressure and Nilfel's got an abundance of heroes with active Rank. Take a leaf from Uryū's book and try to forge from lesser spirits a Pressure capable of contesting an Armament, augmenting the effects of the Walls. Hopefully Letrizia can wield her Element while piloting Verschlengorge. Speaking of Versch, the ostensible purpose of this mission is to kill Letrizia and/or secure the Armament. Might be useful as bait to misdirect Procyon? Alternatively, Hunger can try targeting thefodder troops in Armor Prototypes as a distraction. Not very heroic, but that still makes for less dissonance than the gap between the Republic and its stated ideals.
So much for 'Liberty, Unity, Legacy'! All we've seen so far are ops so deniable they'll only be declassified ten generations later, and now we have this shit to deal with. I know, I know, it's an Apocryphal proc, but the Curse doesn't create motives ex nihilo. Some Senator or other signed off on this mission. Letrizia was giving serious thought to going native and just... not going back, guys!
It'd be nice to know who we're fighting for sure. If Gisena can't confirm it's Procyon with the Azure's aspect of Truth, Nilfel's intelligence apparatus might be able to. Their scouts are weaker beyond the Walls of Myth, but a nation so rich in magi's surely got diviners other than Augustine. Could also be a mission for Aeira since she doesn't rely on ambient mythos, though reconnaissance is a risky business as the fate of the recent Republic scouts attests.
If it's Fervenweirr we're in a lot less danger (though this is an Apocryphal proc, so we shouldn't get our hopes up) and should focus on exploiting the pilot's supposed cowardice to trigger a retreat without tripping the berserker state. He sounds less able to operate independently than the Shinji-alike (together, the two form a complete expy!) if the rest of the strike force succumbs to social combat. It goes without saying that psychological profiles of the pilots/the capabilities of their Armaments are valuable information that Letrizia can provide.
Hunger has captured a fireteam and their accompanying magus. If Gisena can subvert them thoroughly enough, could they be used to buy time by feeding the Republic forces false information? This is dicey, as releasing them leaks what they've seen of our capabilities, but all Hunger needs is enough time to trigger Pillars of Creation and then we're in a different situation entirely. Or even true information; Nilfel has a lot of advantages as a place to make our stand, but making a stand against an attacking Armament isn't a great position to be in. We know naively teleporting out won't save Nilfel, but perhaps the two in conjunction?
Augustine kidnapped Letrizia out of Totality, a feat presumably enabled by Versch's weakened status. Can Gisena replicate anything like this against a full-strength Armament? Even a moment's hesitation would be useful. The Rank-ablation in response to damage is promising, manifesting a Shroud's restricted to Rank 9+ so with enough whittling they won't be able to manifest it and may become vulnerable to Augustinian shenanigans.
Sharpbright manipulates Pressure and Nilfel's got an abundance of heroes with active Rank. Take a leaf from Uryū's book and try to forge from lesser spirits a Pressure capable of contesting an Armament, augmenting the effects of the Walls. Hopefully Letrizia can wield her Element while piloting Verschlengorge. Speaking of Versch, the ostensible purpose of this mission is to kill Letrizia and/or secure the Armament. Might be useful as bait to misdirect Procyon? Alternatively, Hunger can try targeting the
So much for 'Liberty, Unity, Legacy'! All we've seen so far are ops so deniable they'll only be declassified ten generations later, and now we have this shit to deal with. I know, I know, it's an Apocryphal proc, but the Curse doesn't create motives ex nihilo. Some Senator or other signed off on this mission. Letrizia was giving serious thought to going native and just... not going back, guys!
[] Hold the Line
[
Man, this option is so cool. Realistically, this is "final" fight of this realm - and while I'm sure that Apo will do her thing, crossing the Armament threshold is certainly something. We could, like, fuck off and do the Nameless and deal with this safely, but I'd prefer having this as a high note we can talk about in quests to come and so on.
But I'm not sure if this is spicy enough, you know. There's not enough enough Age and Treachery, if you catch my drift. So how about this - we use our Summon to teleport us to Voyaging City, we fight the dudebro there, we Age and Trechery his dumb ass into triggering rage mode, we teleport back just as Procyon is breaching the Walls and go "ha, i will beat you", so he goes "yeah you and what army" and Hunger points over to pissed off Fervenweirr coming in hot.
Then you have one Hunger, clad in his armor and going full god mode with Age and Treachery, against dude who is bad at stuff in berserk Armament and straight-laced dude that broadcasts his every intention inside Armament that auto-taunts everyone around him. I mean, we are likely to get sandwiched between Shrouds and fucked rather than being able to kill one, power up and then kill other, sure, but, whatever the outcome might be, I'm sure we will talk about this for a long time.
And in the end, that's what matters, isn't it?
[
Man, this option is so cool. Realistically, this is "final" fight of this realm - and while I'm sure that Apo will do her thing, crossing the Armament threshold is certainly something. We could, like, fuck off and do the Nameless and deal with this safely, but I'd prefer having this as a high note we can talk about in quests to come and so on.
But I'm not sure if this is spicy enough, you know. There's not enough enough Age and Treachery, if you catch my drift. So how about this - we use our Summon to teleport us to Voyaging City, we fight the dudebro there, we Age and Trechery his dumb ass into triggering rage mode, we teleport back just as Procyon is breaching the Walls and go "ha, i will beat you", so he goes "yeah you and what army" and Hunger points over to pissed off Fervenweirr coming in hot.
Then you have one Hunger, clad in his armor and going full god mode with Age and Treachery, against dude who is bad at stuff in berserk Armament and straight-laced dude that broadcasts his every intention inside Armament that auto-taunts everyone around him. I mean, we are likely to get sandwiched between Shrouds and fucked rather than being able to kill one, power up and then kill other, sure, but, whatever the outcome might be, I'm sure we will talk about this for a long time.
And in the end, that's what matters, isn't it?
Physical stats correlate with Rank for Armaments; Versch's stats directly increase as more of his Rank comes online. As his rank starts to ablate away, so will his stats.
Taking damage is a very bad, no good, pretty gruesome prospect for Armaments in general. Regrettably for many, even starting to inflict damage is insurmountable task for most of everyone.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
[X] Call Up
I had a proc of the Doom of Employment tonight so I missed making the color post. Thanks to Fumbles for putting one together anyway!
I love every bit of Call Up, it hits the things that I like most about Rihaku quests. Descending into the Arcanist's Crypt in a desperate bid for Foremost L O R E and resurfacing with Chromatic Beasts at our beck and call... The Arcanist is the kind of encounter that defines a setting. I'm onboard.
There's simulationist and narrativist reasons why I will say other people should also vote for this option, but above everything else I just think this is neat.
I had a proc of the Doom of Employment tonight so I missed making the color post. Thanks to Fumbles for putting one together anyway!
I love every bit of Call Up, it hits the things that I like most about Rihaku quests. Descending into the Arcanist's Crypt in a desperate bid for Foremost L O R E and resurfacing with Chromatic Beasts at our beck and call... The Arcanist is the kind of encounter that defines a setting. I'm onboard.
There's simulationist and narrativist reasons why I will say other people should also vote for this option, but above everything else I just think this is neat.
- Location
- Europe
You've convinced me.
[X] Hold the Line
Sadly this might kill Gisena too and Hunger can't resurrect his Waifu if he's dead, so I've got to approval vote something less suicidal as well.
[X] Call Up
Rihaku
The Internet
Armaments can take a very substantial amount of damage before they start death-spiraling; it would be more accurate to say that they start to suffer Rank penalties in lieu of lethal damage, anything before that is often relegated to fairly modest reductions in effectiveness correlating with the actual organs lost. Versch for example can heal from almost anything once he can manifest a Shroud and the attendant abilities, so long as he has worthy opponents to devour. Countering an Armament often requires specific strategies - in the case of Versch, not letting him lifesteal by using waves of self-detonating high-tier Astral beasts, for example. The Sovereign-classes that direct the general fight against the Armaments do sometimes use such strategies, but other times rely on pure brute force...
Alright, lets consider pros and cons in fighting Procyon
- We are uniquely suited to fighting this Armament, as we can resist his Ultimate by our very nature
- While his weapons are magically enhanced, nothing he can do should be actually universe-destroying, thus allowing us full protection of Armor of Midnight
- Our relatively high Combat Rank(~9.6 after procing Armor) in conjunction with HDS and Bastion will sharply decrease Procyon's Rank advantage,
- Between all of above, Outer Shadow and our regeneration, we are as close to invincible against Procyon as we can reasonably be
- We also have enhanced Power of Ruin which benefits from long, drawn out fights
- And we do have Deathly Star and Artful Thorn, which are Armament relevant weapons
- We do have possibility of getting more Stances. While ADS and FDS are mutually exclusive, we can use lesser Stances in conjunction with ADS. In particular, we could snap-purchase MDS, which should trigger against Armament tier opponent
- Procyon's Curse means that Hunger has good chance of doing his treachery here
- Given that our opponent is an Armament, we should be capable of getting powerful help from Enclosure for relatively free. I'm sure Astral's would be delighted to destroy Procyon
- In theory, Procyon's presence could summons powerful Astral beasts we could kill for picks, especially if we facilitate that with our summoning. A risky strategy, but one that could make this fight way more manageable
- We have much lower physical stats - most notably speed. This, alone, is the greatest challenge here
- All of Procyon's stats are further boosted by his Rank, especially once he deploys his Shroud
- Realistically, this means that we will be relying on Quickening(and one proc of Nightmare Flight) a lot. Issue is not only that we have finite amount of Quickenings, but that this also cuts into our limited supply of Artful Thorns
- While Hunger is, for most part, invincible against Procyon, the same can't be said for his allies. We lack ability that would allow us to force him to fight us or otherwise impede his movement. In addition, Procyon has superior speed. As such, we both need to use Walls of Myth to stall Procyon, and force him to face us by threatening his allies and so on
- Likewise, our allies lack our protection from Procyon's ultimate
- Speed also means that Procyon can employ alternative strategies, such as picking Hunger and yeeting him far into Voyaging Realm