People voting for Favor because "we aren't getting any power before the Apocryphal proc" are most skillfully ignoring the two combat power based signs we are gaining at the same time.
That isn't to say moving up the ISH has no value, it does, and would be quite useful for anything affected by Hungers stats, but saying Hunger isn't gaining any power before Apocryphal while also justifying our past signs votes with Hunger needing more power for Apocryphal is inconsistent.
To be fair, most of the people using that reasoning are basing it off of the words of the Accursed and Haeliel, who do seem to be implying that, despite the power offered by Star and Armour, Hunger is still looking a little weak (though they do also comment that our squad is looking a little weak and people are still shying away from Exaltation).
were already getting both of those signs for sure when the Accursed became concerned enough to show up in person and offer us the only help he could reasonably give because we were going to need it more than ever before. The signs were already factored in to how fucked we were. So it isn't about how much power we've gained recently, but how much power we gain from this specific vote, which the Apocryphal won't have anticipated.
To be fair, most of the people using that reasoning are basing it off of the words of the Accursed and Haeliel, who do seem to be implying that, despite the power offered by Star and Armour, Hunger is still looking a little weak (though they do also comment that our squad is looking a little weak and people are still shying away from Exaltation)
It isn't clear where in the quantum uncertainty of our build vote Haeliel and Accursed are interfering. Now, it's possible that any combination of Hungers sign choices would make no difference to contesting Apocryphal.
If that is the case, then the relatively minor improvement that comes from AoF 2 probably won't sway things either.
That is, if 2 signs worth of combat power are insufficient for this attack then +0.1 on the ISH probably won't do it either.
That leaves a 5% chance of Haeliels favor deterring the Apocryphal proc, empowerment making a better suited companion relevant for dealing with the issue or Grace protecting him if it is otherwise lethal.
Hunger can get Grace without favor, empowerment on top of that, and still prep for resurrecting Catherine/Haeliels Advice Corner.
I don't find the power argument particularly convincing, is what I'm saying.
Edit: one moment, I miss clicked while going back to look at AoF 2, please let me finish my research before replying.
Edit 2: Done,
On the contrary, I'm quite certain that the Accursed and Haeliel appear after Hunger's debt to Adorie has been established, and that debt is itself specifically extant because of the vast quantity of Mythic Platinum which the Cloak of Sky consumed in order to fast-track the Fourth and Fifth signs, which I think pretty clearly establishes these events as happening after the signs have been obtained.
@DarkSideBard, if you'll forgive a little politicking, Guidance has a pretty dramatic advantage in votes. If you want Favor to win out then it needs to reach second place. In order to edge out the guidance/grace/reprieve vote then only a vote of Favor + !Grace contributes to that goal.
Brain pointed out that Favor has to overcome the combined preferences of several other overlapping builds. Right now the chief obstacle to that goal is Grace.
@DarkSideBard, if you'll forgive a little politicking, Guidance has a pretty dramatic advantage in votes. If you want Favor to win out then it needs to reach second place. In order to edge out the guidance/grace/reprieve vote then only a vote of Favor + !Grace contributes to that goal.
Brain pointed out that Favor has to overcome the combined preferences of several other overlapping builds. Right now the chief obstacle to that goal is Grace.
Good point, I suppose I can't rely on a consolidation vote when there aren't quite so many mix and match elements in play. I'll change my vote. Thank you!
[X] "I wish for the Seraph's favor." (2 Wishes) [X] Night's Ambition
To be fair, most of the people using that reasoning are basing it off of the words of the Accursed and Haeliel, who do seem to be implying that, despite the power offered by Star and Armour, Hunger is still looking a little weak (though they do also comment that our squad is looking a little weak and people are still shying away from Exaltation).
This means taking our power and making allies stronger. We are not "buffing" fucking Haeliel.
So far there's no indication that Apo has any issues with taking power we've invested into our allies in consideration. Otherwise it would be completely trivial to outscale it by just investing power into something else, Nameless-style.
Of course, buffing them is helpful because we've already established that they are a glaring weakpoint Apo can target, but that's another thing entirely.
Pretty sure apocrypha scales to companions as well, haeliel isn't really a companion she doesn't fight battles for us. If we gained a hunger tier combatant apocrypha isn't gonna just ignore that that would be too easy. Any avenue of long term power will inevitably be answered by apocrypha.
Pretty sure apocrypha scales to companions as well, haeliel isn't really a companion she doesn't fight battles for us. If we gained a hunger tier combatant apocrypha isn't gonna just ignore that that would be too easy. Any avenue of long term power will inevitably be answered by apocrypha.
Likely it isolates us from them by some method X or upgrades the enemy count so we each have to fight 1 high level enemy or be busy with a group of enemies. Maybe pirate maybe whaler guy had the rest of our party too busy fighting astral denizens on Verschlengorge to help for example.(Edit: Perhaps it threatens them and then makes us pay a cost to save them)
Apocryphal mitigation lowers the average magnitude of Apocryphal procs according to a discord screenshot I found in the statement index.
As for other statements(I found these in the statement index and tracking the links seems like a pain right now sorry about that)...
Unelemental:
He means we've been promised a regular supply of nemeses from the Apocryphal Curse. Though I don't think it means they'll be automatically as strong as we are, so advancing swiftly still has value.
Correct, similar to the Geas (though not as permissive) the Apocryphal Curse only has imperfect scaling, and some of its challenges aren't scaled at all or are disruptive in a way that doesn't risk your personal safety. It's possible to get ahead of the curve if you do well, or fall behind if you do poorly. Considerably less forgiving if you do fall behind, though.
Not quite. You do have the opportunity to seek out worthy opposition independent of Apocryphal Curse procs. This is preferred as you won't be laboring under the "interesting" circumstances of the Apocryphal Curse. Example - if you'd found this ship when not under attack by Astral Beasts, your chances of being injured while fighting this particular Experience-granting opponent would be much lower, as you would have Gisena's backup and possibly the mech's.
The Apocryphal Curse is the test. Endeavours you seek out are the prep.
That said, if you guys wanna try making some severe demands and see if he caves, there's nothing stopping you from writing that in as a suboption. "Throw your sword and scatter your armor into the ocean," "Have your crew disarm," "Your GP or your HP" etc.
Mm, I would say that your independent expeditions usually aren't affected by the Apocryphal, but there's no hard rules. It is the nature of interesting times to create changing circumstances!
As a reminder so people don't forget, the Apocryphal Curse scales threats to Hunger at his optimal capabilities and Rank, and does not factor in conditions like being Exhausted or temporarily crippled when producing those threats.
Hunger is outscaling the Apocryphal right now, though that may not be the case down the line. I don't know how sustainable 50-500% growth per day is, though...
You can outscale the 'moving average' but you never know how great the actual Apocryphal proc will truly be! The Apocryphal Curse follows no rules absolutely.
Why do people assume that Favor is enough to overcome our next proc when we were almost forced to use the shattering blow last Apocryphal proc despite having just gotten 4 EFBs? Our next proc is not only stronger but also a major proc rather than a standard one, Favor is great but it's not a defensive wish, it doesn't have a 100% chance of allowing us to survive our next proc.
It doesn't hurt that Favor comes with 5% Apocryphal mitigation, but it's better than a normal 5% mitigation because it mitigates many of the worst 5% of procs.
Favor's Apocryphal mitigation is worse than Grace, if an Apocryphal proc that would be lethal to Hunger were to occur then Favor would only have a 5% chance of avoiding it, whereas Grace would have a 100% chance of saving Hunger.
You're putting words in his mouth, He did not say anything about buffing Haeliel. You're also failing to understand that he was saying that the Apocryphal curse does not scale with our allies.
I'm not sure I'm saying anything here or not but here's data on previous Apocrypha Procs and how they interacted or may have interacted with our companions if it helps anybody's decision making.
Maybe Pirate Maybe Whaler Guy: Our party was too busy fighting Astral Denizens on Verschlengorge to Contribute
Tyrantbeast: Had we taken this one, Gisena would have been too busy looking after Letrezia to help at the time
Ber Round 1: Entire party of hostile adventurers that occupied every party member, powerful enough to challenge even Hunger at the time
Republic Special Forces: An entire group that could cause trouble for vulnerable party members or cause collateral damage if the Elixir Highschoolers got involved but we didn't take this
Rotbeast: The Rotbeast had Rotspawn our party was helping with, they had options to help like Tide of Nullity or Verschlengorge's powers but we spent arete to Praxis our way out instead.
Lucent Thorn: Was targeting Gisena first. Hunger was on the hit list but a secondary priority.
Ringwar: Would diminish us/Gisena if we didn't get out of the Voyaging realm to make Ringwar.
Ber Round 2: Companions tangential, we just stumbled across and killed him in the process of dealing with the Armament Fish
Augustines Anti Rank attack: Ruined our day, We would have had to pay with selfhood to win if Gisena didn't Renaissance Woman to save our asses.
I can't speak to So Below, but I'm pretty sure that Rihaku has previously stated that X-Types are threats that the Temple simply has no chance of defeating at all, with the X probably standing for "eXistential."
I also thought it was 'existential', but more in a 'ontologically bizarre' sort of way.
Also, I'm kinda hoping we can get Blood Sorcery if we manage another small omakestorm. HPOH update on the way.
I also thought it was 'existential', but more in a 'ontologically bizarre' sort of way.
Also, I'm kinda hoping we can get Blood Sorcery if we manage another small omakestorm. HPOH update on the way.
I knew we couldn't say no to another round of that sweet sweet protagonist banter. There are other benefits I'm sure, but I would vote for this if it were 2 and favour was 1. (I'm lying probably)
I'm glad we can all agree that what this quest really needs is an injection of anime.
...Well. Crap. I still, unambiguously, believe that Exaltation + Grace is better than Favor. Grace is the better mitigation, and Exaltation is the better immediate power. But I don't believe Exaltation has enough omake power for it's 14 votes to beat Defers 23, and we need some form of immediate power so we don't burn Grace immediately. So, I guess...
[X] "I wish for the Seraph's guidance."
[X] "I wish for the Seraph's favor." (2 Wishes)
[X] Night's Ambition
Bellgone Two (Beta'd extensively by HoratioVonBecker and DarkSideBard!)
"Well met, captain," Ruby replied, tasting the words as they spoke. There was an oddly familiar sense to the Bellgoneans' language, even if it was nonetheless quite different from their native tongues. "I'm known as Ruby," they shared, the name, or perhaps title, feeling a little off in their mouth as they and the captain descended a staircase melting out of the stone in front of them.
Beneath, stepping down into what Ruby felt was the true form of the settlement, there were a number of differences. In contrast with the bulbous shape of the surface structures, the buildings in Bellgone proper were mostly tubular, stretching from ceiling to floor. There were many more artistic flourishes to the columns than to the surface bulges, though, rings of textured stone and brightly lit signs adorning most, casting the town with bands and streaks of light and shadow. The air also seemed different from the surface, somehow, or perhaps it was space itself. They spun a thread of dreamsilk, and sure enough, the local ontology was sufficiently warped to produce a meaningfully different silk, still vibrant and tough but with a great deal more stretch. Different enough to warrant experimentation, albeit delegated to the formflow mind.
Captain Lyster removed his respiration mask with a deep sigh. "Ah, been a while since I took a good breath. If you'll follow me, Archmage Ruby?" he beckoned. Ruby followed, doing their best to ignore the burning hunger that the many delectable scents wafting through the cavernous town's atmosphere provoked in the pit of their chest.
Their destination was the welcoming party that Ruby had spotted earlier. There was a bit of a crowd, which Ruby realized was looking up to them, metaphorically but also physically. It seemed that Lyster's height was actually on the high end as far as Bellgoneans go. Six people were standing at the front, and Lyster stepped into the midst of the group before turning back to Ruby.
"Archmage, allow me to introduce the other members of Bellgone's humble oversight council.
"This is Ransert, our labor representative," he said, gesturing to a man on his right with wavy black hair and a white suit,
"Eryt, our community ambassador," pointing to a woman further to the right with long, straight red hair and off-white overalls,
"Korter, our industry representative," moving his hand to another woman on the right with short black hair and a dark business suit,
"Roplar, our chief alchemist," waving over to a man on his left, with wild grey hair, green shirt, and simple trousers,
"Charser, our chief theurgist," indicating a third woman standing to the right of Eryt, akin to her but a bit taller and more aged, wearing a black dress and a sparkling golden necklace,
"and Syfor, our chief astrologer and eldest community member." Lyster bowed his head towards the last councillor, standing opposite Ruby on the far right. He was an old man, bald but with a long white beard and wearing an honest-to-goodness star-spangled robe.
"Greetings overseers, and the people of Bellgone," Ruby projected, doing their best to radiate an aura of authority. Neither of them were ever the most interested in public speaking, unfortunately. "I'm glad that my ongoing journey has brought me to your settlement. I look forward to having a proper conversation again," they took a deep breath, allowing themself to enjoy the symphony of aromas again, "as well as enjoying some good food!"
From there, Ruby began answering questions the council had about their origins, their journey, and their magic, as well as asking some questions in return about where Bellgone came from, their magical tradition, and the current situation of the town, all while the group walked towards the nearest source of delicious food: a quaint little stall squatting at the base of large warehouse column, housing a fire and spit all in its own little fume hood of sorts.
The food was delicious, various jungle fowl seasoned and charred and served with a delightfully bright, tropical sauce that they could tell was also sourced from the jungle, all contrasting interestingly with the somewhat more subdued ontology that the settlement's theo-alchemical boundary maintained. They ate a lot of it, and the crowd that followed them ate quite a bit of it as well, which they hoped would help balance the fact that they technically only paid for their meal with the credit all Archmages were apparently given.
By the time that Ruby decided they should stop eating, they'd cleared up the minor confusion regarding their status as an Archmage (which, as it turns out, they still were, even if they were "...from further out in the diaspora than we'd thought possible," according to Syfor), as well as learned quite a bit about their tripartite form of magic. Individually, alchemy, theurgy, and astrology seemed relatively limited, requiring a great deal of infrastructure, time and resources to achieve things that the Waking and Dream could accomplish relatively easily.
There was some deeper element to the three sciences, though, that the Waking and Dreaming lacked, something which struck a similar note to the Gravity that Ruby obtained after integrating the Gaoler Beast's eye. Something beyond the physical or informatic, which the magic drew on to achieve its effects, albeit with massive inefficiencies. It presented a tantalizing opportunity to further their own growth, but unfortunately the Bellgoneans seemed to lack anyone who had the potential to be initiated into the Waking or the Dream in return.
Choose one option.
<> Stay. If Ruby sticks around Bellgone as they experiment, they could share their developments with the locals, and maybe even benefit from the limited research into grammometry the Bellgoneans have already done. There's food, there's people, and there's interesting work to do. Being side-tracked by doing errands for the locals could be annoying, but it's only that, an annoyance.
<> Leave. If Ruby heads out, however, they can avoid potentially provoking the Doom of the Martyr, which might be particularly relevant if their research ends up disrupting the status quo in Bellgone. Furthermore, Ruby can tell that Syfor is actively containing his contempt for them, and if they stay too long, that may stop being the case. Having an Archmage and the town elder in direct opposition to each other could be bad, at least for the townsfolk.
