What did Hunger do when he first awoke? Prioritize carefully.

[ ] Finally Get in the Robot - Matters of the Decimator's Affliction have been put off for too long. They must be addressed immediately. If Verschlengorge has the same Curse as you, does that mean Gisena and Letrizia are being drained of life force at double the rate? This and other questions should be answered quickly if at all possible. [+Verschlengorge Information, +???]

well, this has a pretty convincing reasoning behind it. though a few hours of difference won't likely make that much of a difference.

on the other hand Apocryphal is always behind the corner, so a few hours might very well make ALL the difference in the world.
[ ] Research the Spoils - The pearl, the message, and the scale. Gisena's work is good, but you have your own perspective to add, the insight made possible through long experience and formidable Astral Rank. Though the latter has been somewhat depleted, hampering your efforts on every front, nonetheless it is critical to absorb or acquire whatever strength you can from the fish you spent so dearly to conquer. [+???]

I think this could wait. I trust Gisena enough, and with our Rank depleted we would likely not be able to add that much to her observations.
[ ] Sleep In - Rest is critical. Though it will not relieve your Exhausted condition, you will receive small some leeway in using your Astral Rank for the day. [Exhausted -> Mostly Exhausted]
mh.. maybe. It would go a long way towards preparing us in case of Apocryphal disaster right when we're at our most vulnerable

[ ] Brunch - Get the girls together and finish off the rest of that fish. Sure, one could save it smoked in cold storage to be parceled out across the length of this journey, but that would simply leave you spoiled and wanting for more. Best to finish it off with a second exquisite feast and create happy memories with your traveling companions! [+Letrizia, +Gisena]

..ok, for me it's either this or the Giant robot I think, though I won't be annoyed if sleep in won.
---

The winning votes were:

[X] Fierce Vigor
[X] Do Not Spend Arete
[X] Apocryphal - Direct Mitigation
[X] Decimator's - Huntress' Moon
[X] +Gisena

Apocryphal direct? I still think huntress moon would have synergized decently well tribulation, but in the end As long as Huntress' Moon won I'm fine with it. We can get more good targets (and rest) within the Evening realm...if we ever manage to gather 25 arete for it... and don't spend them on ANOTHER 25 arete option...
Long-Term Planning! A form of advanced coordination so that you can actually buy the EFB-equivalents you want! Spend Arete now, guarantee an option's availability in future build votes!

Selecting an option ensures it will be a valid choice in future build votes, even if not directly shown, and won't disappear or increase in cost due to time constraints or the purchase of accompanying baseline options. 1 Arete per option.

Arete spent is not lost, but is put down as a deposit towards the total cost of the option in question.

[ ] Save 1 Option
[ ] Save 3 Options
[ ] Save 5 Options

Take care that you do not deposit recklessly into too many high-Arete effects.

iiiiiiinteresting...

I think it would be wise to not invest in more than one 25 arete option, likely either Ring of Power of Evening Realm. Let's go through the options once more.
The Forebear's Blade

[ ] [A Thousand Cuts] - 7 Arete. In the Forebear's grip could even a common knife blaze with fell power. All melee attacks made with the Forebear's Blade now apply cursed wounds. Septuples the power and speed of the Fell-Handed Stroke and allows it to be used with blade projections. Such horrific offensive power allows one to challenge foes vastly stronger.

[ ] [Iron Curtain] - 7 Arete. The Forebear could not be dissuaded, nor could he be stopped. To dissent was folly, to resist was death. The laws of the Forebear were as natural law, and just as inevitable. When active, ++Willpower, +++Protection, ++Constitution, Ignore Wounds, Deflect Exotic Attacks. Become Tired afterwards.

[ ] [Once And Future] I - 25 Arete. Channel a fraction of the Forebear's true might, and glimpse a small fraction of his true history. +1 Astral Rank, applied externally after all other factors. Does not raise the difficulty of improving Rank. +2 Astral Rank in matters military.

ok, in my opinion Once And future is not worth depositing arete for, simply because it's maybe the one option that becomes better the longer we wait for it. We COULD maybe put 1 point into on the 7 arete options though. One gives overwhelming offensive power, the other a classic shonen "nothing will stop me" mode. I wouldn't take both, but maybe one of them yes.
The Ring of Power

[ ] [Pitiless Maw] - 7 Arete. A Conjunctional Advancement that requires the Forebear's Blade. How can hunger perish from this world? So long as there is one hungering thing, it will emerge again and again to feast upon this realm of mere phenomena. Passively restore health equal to 100% of the damage you deal in melee combat, and triples the Power of Ruin associated with melee strikes.

[ ] [Dead But Dreaming] - 25 Arete. That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons... Death merely induces slumber in the wearer until the heavens align for his emergence once more. Gain access to the [Outer Sorcery] skill, by which means one's dreams may twist reality towards one's purposes. Apply the effects of To Shatter Heaven to [Outer Sorcery].

[ ] [Ruling Ring] - 25 Arete. There can only be one Ruling Ring. Enormously increases the strength, range, and control of the [Ring of Power] effect. ++All Stats, ++Progression.

Pitiless Maw is new I think. Life steal and improved melee damage. Not bad.

Dead But Dreaming doesn't seem quite as interesting to me when compared to the other options. After all we don't have any intention of being killed, and even with it being killed would be a MASSIVE problem.

Maybe might's repose might strenghten during our death-sleep, but there's a problem: we're likely going to STILL have Decimator while dead. What, do you think the curse would leave us simply because we're somewhat dead? Please, our curses are not so kind. And if we were to stay asleep for long enough there's a very real risk of accidentally destroying the planet/universe in which we fell asleep, and after that the curse would likely start eating US. IN OUR SLEEP.

I'm still a bit curious about Outer Sorcery, but we have other options. Ruling Ring, for example, would give a decent amount of immediate strenght and a LUDICROUS AMOUNT of extra progression. It would probably pay off in just a few fights after we took it.


The Evening Sky

[ ] [Azure Moon] - 7 Arete. That which reigns resplendent once in a blue aeon. The wearer gains access to his true [Soul Evocation], [Imprisoner], and high-grade talent in its use. Powerful as this may be, recall that the use of Soul Evocations requires extensive technical study which will be difficult to perform under the constraints of Hunger. However the potential benefits are enormous enough that it may be worth pursuing even at a mortal's pace.

[ ] Total Eclipse - 25 Arete. The numinous time of sacred transfixion. Night sweeps field and horizon in a thundering advance, halo of the blinkered sun the only residue of day. Twilight's orphaned half-brother, cast aside on the eve of creation and trotted out only for spectacle and occasion. No longer, for the flare of your cloak is this twilight pretender, the liminal glow that precludes day and evening both. Unlocks the [True Quintessence], by which She Who Was The Maiden attained supremacy over the Manifest Realm, and for which the Maiden's successors might one day be anointed.

[ ] [Pillars of Creation] - 25 Arete. At the end of each lunar month, wearer and companions may steal away to the realm of Evening, during which no time passes in the mortal world. Divine opulence and every conceivable luxury await the fortunate interlopers, restoring wholeness of mind, body, and spirit.

The realm of Evening responds to the desires of the wearer and can be shaped to induce a variety of effects at nigh-deific scale - worthy enemies, fields of unique reagents, anagathic peaches, arms and armor of myth - only one rule is absolute: that each stay lasts seven days, no more or less. Items typically cannot be carried out, though the effects of items consumed within the realm remain after departing it.

All Curses save the Geas of Indenture are only at one-third severity within the realm, though this does not stack with other forms of mitigation, nor impede their function externally.

oh, lookie here! an improved Soul Evocation! that's new!

I'd probably ignore it. as the description itself says Hunger (and our various curses) make the technical study needed for this magic system pretty hard, so we might be better served spending our arete somewhere else.

ok, so let's skip Azure Moon.

Oh, another 25 points option! as if we didn't have enough of these already!

...wait, is this the source of the Maiden's powers!?

that's admittedly tempting. Apparently the Maiden had basically all the graces (or at least a lot more than the conventional sorceress), so [True Quintessence] is likely going to be a power with great variety of effects and not little strenght.

It might also give us some level of power/control over Findross, which means we'd likely be able to use this to accelerate Gisena's growth, possibly discovering how to make HER a Maiden-level threat as well.

Interesting.

and then there's the dear old Pillars of creation.




ok, we have a max of 5 points we can put down as deposit

I think we should be reasonable, and keep ourselves to 1, AT MOST 2 25 points option (but really, one is much wiser). For me this option should be either the ring for progression, Pillars for easier training and decimator mitigation, or maaaaaaaybe Total Eclipse.

yeah, for me it would have to be either the ring of the pillars, but I can't decide which one!

after a single 25 point option I'd probably go with 1 point on on two of the 7 arete options, though I could be convinced to not put any on them and save the Arete instead.

If I were to make a deposit on two 7 point options though... I think it would be the two Forebear's blade options, the super mode and the improvement to offense. I could maybe be convinced for lifesteal, but soul evocation lost much of its attraction once it was pointed out how it requires study, and how unsuited we are to studying thanks to the ring.


Now let's see how much I change my mind from the coming arguments!

791 words
 
Because there seems to be some doubt regarding Haeliel's value
*Once per Geas task, she may turn aside any foe that has attained an otherwise-insurmountable edge against Hunger, or any one negative circumstance that would otherwise overcome him.
This is essentially Defensive Wish
*She may utilize one of her Ordinals, once, to perform an effect no greater than that of a Lesser Wish; or, when directly countering the efforts of the Apocryphal Curse, no greater than that of a True Wish or that of her full capacity, whichever is lesser.
And this is essentially Lesser Wish

Both are worth roughly 25 Arete a piece and then you had third thingy, plus connection with being so comprehensively above us it's not funny. Likewise, this vote is result of Lesser Wish, so at bae it's ~25 Arete worth of value that would give us powerful Progression Cursebearer ally 1/4 of the time; thus every Arete spent here is especially valuable.

If we get enough Arete it's for sure efficient to dumb it all into angel sis. Getting enough in time is another question entirely, of course.
 
Hmm, hard to really decide who would actually be a good Cursebearer sponsor. Haeliel is super awesome but super expensive and it's a tad hard to justify the cost, even if I like both the lore she brings and the natural affinity she has with Hunger. Learning more about the Ordinal Spiral is very tempting but I'm not sure if I really want to add another magical power to Hunger's plate when we barely have enough time to explore what we have. By my count, we have 4 Artifacts as part of our Panoply, with 3 having dedicated upgrade paths and magics (Blade, Ring and Sky. Hopefully, Tears never develops its own line of Advancements...). The dreaded development of Graces looms over us still, drawing closer with Gisena's ascension, another pit of expense for Arete to be sunk into. The faint hope of Praxis Advancements has already been crushed by the tyranny of Signs and the fell powers of the Sky, so adding another competitor for Arete may well just kill me.

And ultimately, I don't really want to learn about Ordinalism through a secondary perspective - given that Hunger's Wits and Intelligence aren't so absurdly high that he would be the natural choice for instruction, leading Gisena to be the main candidate for tutelage in the Spiral. The Ordinal Spiral is really cool but one of the things Arthur's quest lacked was the actual time and process of learning Ordinalism, something skipped through with the powers of Supreme transforming Depth into Ordinals. I'd really to explore Ordinalism in greater detail so only being able to see a bit of it isn't quite as appealing to me.

Resurrecting Catherine is super interesting as a plot point and something I'd be eager to do sooner rather than later but there doesn't seem to be much appetite in the thread for that. As a character, I'd definitely have a preference for Haeliel since she wouldn't be a permanent companion actually, since that makes each individual encounter more important and doesn't hamper us too much by bogging us down with either Daylian's insane recklesness or pretty much doubled Apocryphal procs with Wolber. But the cost is really too prohibitive in terms of Arete.

I'm reluctant to pick options that save Arete anymore though, because whenever we save Arete, we end up spending it on crap I don't care about so I'm increasingly disinterested in having an Arete reserve. Might be better for me to just support splurging on stuff that's visible right now. Only thing I'd consider good value in terms of Arete is potential-based Advancements like Imperial Refinement or Ruling Ring, but the thread hasn't really shown any commitment to actually purchasing those options.

And honestly, the other options when it comes to sponsors seem to have strong downsides I'm not keen on, though the possible lore from both options is pretty great. Daylian is a reckless hero with supreme overconfidence and having him as a committed companion means we will need to be less risky to compensate! That's definitely not something I'm supportive of, since what's cool about Hunger's story to me is the reckless willingness to accept danger and his ability to overcome terrible odds. I really want to support more physically dangerous challenges, which Daylian might contribute to, but it seems 50/50 to me whether he will result in more fights or less fights. The first is good, the second less so. Plus, having to be someone's minder sounds like a chore.

Wolber has the Brand of the Wretched, whose memetic powers are so strong, they're already making me dislike him from beyond the 4th wall! More seriously, Wretched really does make social encounters deeply awkward and unpleasant and given that AST Zero was already full of Brand crappiness, I'm not sure if I really want to go through that again even if we are on the opposite side this time. Wolber's investment in the Praxis is cool, but I want to focus on Hunger developing Praxis rather than merely experiencing it second-hand and I'm sure that MAEG Gang or whatever other magics-supporting factions there are will begin to oppose Praxis development, since Wolber will provide a lot of utility on that front.

I don't want to cripple our Praxis gains before we even explore it in depth! Though, having failed to seize the opportunity for Praxis training on the last two occasions makes me think we'll probably not go back to it anymore...

Anyway, this post is pretty much just to jot down my current thoughts. Very undecided on sponsor, albeit sticking to Haeliel for now since I prefer her character.
 
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The thing that I most dread when meeting these guys is what they're going to say when they find out that the majority of our retinue is composed of highschoolers. What a terrifying prospect!
 
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I wonder what the upcoming Apocryphal event is about? Some thoughts, ordered in most likely to least likely.


The shard of the arcanist is the most obvious possibility.

We have that other cursebearer coming for Aobaru. They're on this world for sure, maybe they decided to head straight over with no delays?

Maybe Gisena ascending attracted the attention of something hostile? The fact that Cut Fate unlocked sorcery possibly means there's a fate effect blocking people from becoming sorceresses; perhaps there's some guardian that created and enforces that effect sensed her. Maybe whatever killed the Builders the first time around is still alive, and now it's going to kill GIsena before she can become a Builder.

A "delved too deep" situation in the mines of the Realm of Myth is possible. If the shard of the arcanist is here maybe other things are buried here as well? Imagine a giant cavern full of chromatic aberrations.

The last choice point Lucent Thorn and Ring War were mentioned, both are still possibilities. Same for republic kill team. That said, I think we've outleveled them by this point.

Maybe whoever tried to kill Letrizia the first time will try again? Seems unlikely they'd have this kind of firepower though.

...

Based on Rihaku's hints it's more likely to be something that can't be resolved just by piling on more firepower, so I'm leaning away from simple combat situations.
 
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I wonder what the upcoming Apocryphal event is about?

Perhaps there won't be any Apocryphal event at all in our immediate future? The most worrisome possibility to me is it waiting until after our Pillars proc and then triggering upon the Voyaging Realm Apocalypse when we attempt extraction, either by moving our companions beyond our reach or by empowering it to a level simply incontestable by military might.
 
So it's a choice between Daylian and Wolber for me. Not sure whether Wolber's greater cost is a question of greater quality or lesser suitability, so I can't judge the difference by that criterion. So it's up to deciding which of them I like more and which I think benefits Hunger's situation more.

My theory is that the 5 additional arete for committed Wolber is paying for Availability and Imperial Praxis level spells he has. Wolber doesn't have the indenture geas and can dimension travel. So he decides to move to the Human Sphere/Voyaging Realm for some reason.

Daylian by comparison, even on committed, is using all of his finite Geas mitigation time to hang out with us. He can't always be there. His powers are, while potent on a cosmic scale, not the imperial praxis.
 
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The last choice point Lucent Thorn and Ring War were mentioned, both are still possibilities. Same for republic kill team. That said, I think we've outleveled them by this point.
Apo-Chan can always buff them up if they're too weak!

In the case of Lucent Thorne, though, it's stated to be only defeatable by stuff like Praxis or presumably very comprehensive outscaling.

---

Haliel Got to her power level with Ordinal alone, boosted by Progression and TSH. So I would say that our TSH-boosted Accretion is on the same level of scaling as the Imperial Praxis, not the same exact power, but on a similar level and potential. Non-Scepter Accretion is probably Noble Praxis grade levels of power though.
 
I'd like to remind people that the tally is deceptive and that votes for committed are being folded into basic.

Current Vote:

[X] Daylian Erranthus [Committed, 7 Arete]
 
Anyway, I just remembered that since Wolber is in fact a praehir like us, he gets an affinity and likely secret bonuses to piloting Armaments. This is pretty good for him since he's otherwise physically incapable thanks to his Curses and we are going to the Human Sphere anyway. And I have a strong suspicion Wolber is going to be able to cast his Praxis spells through Totality without ant problems.

Haliel Got to her power level with Ordinal alone, boosted by Progression and TSH. So I would say that our TSH-boosted Accretion is on the same level of scaling as the Imperial Praxis, not the same exact power, but on a similar level and potential. Non-Scepter Accretion is probably Noble Praxis grade levels of power though.
When Rihaku talked about this concerning Philosopher's Wreath, he said that TSH Accrettion is better than the Noble Praxis in some regards, and it's definitely comparable. I suspect without TSH its max power would be infintely lower, just like the caps on Ordinalism and Cultivation are.

Ultimately, you don't need a super magic system to become a High Cursebearer; hell, you don't even need Progression. You just need sufficient talent and sufficient drive. Maybe you need so much of these things it's close to infinite, but technically you really don't need anything else.
 
I realized another potential angle to speculate on for Cursebearer decisionmaking. Will any of them change our circumstances in a way that meaningfully influences what our 5th sign becomes? If so, how?

Moving on to other thoughts...

I remembered that we actually have a limited extent of data on what War does.

Imperia secretly had War and Legion. The Nettlespine was her single full power legion body she got via an attainment using her Warform, and through some mix of Ordinalism and Vitalism, she created a high end monster.


forums.sufficientvelocity.com

The Gardens of Enoch: Terrascape Academy Original

I can't answer much about the Ordinal Spiral because I might re-use it in a future quest. There were a number of ways, ranging from brute force (of a sort) to trickery. Any analogue to the ways in which Doom beat the Beyonder would likely have worked. For example, you could have tried prying...
1) Because it sounds cool
2) It was the Vitalist form that had the effect Imperia desired
3) Outrageous physical specs, plus total control over harm, present and future, within its vicinity. It could ensure harm of any magnitude befell those near it, prevent the same, erase the effects of past harms upon itself, etc.

Basically a Touhou character with control over the concept of "harm." Of course, against sufficiently powerful beings (any of the 2 + 4 Arch-Spirits, the Monarch, etc), even imposition of that degree has its limits. But it more than sufficed to overwhelm the remainder of the student body.
 
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They are Sharpness and Light cast into matter.
Man, sharpness and brightness are a Theme in this quest, like one-armed-one-eyed men, and things called Tyrants. What's up with that? I kind of think it's something we'll figure out one we unlock our Shroud.
Shield - The user generates a coating of protective energy around their body. It is selectively permeable and skilled users can remain under a continuous shield without penalizing their day-to-day living, save for the Ordinal Slot committed. Extremely easy to cast, the Shield spell is resilient to errors and provides at least some degree of protection from virtually all forms of harm. It can adopt the qualities of a highly supple or highly rigid material seemingly at whim. Most importantly, the Shield spell can be combined with a number of other spells, imparting conceptual qualities of improved convenience and defensive versatility upon a number of higher Ordinals. The user can envelop themselves in an otherwise impermable Construct barrier without suffocating, or clad themselves in armor of Elemental Stone with far fewer practical obstructions.
Oh, is that what was going on with Yinjie? Controlverse magic is pretty clearly connected to Ordinalism in more-or-less the same way Vitalism is, going by the after-quest discussion.
You would only be able to swear oaths that place no obligation on you, else they would fail due to RHoG.
What was that?
Depends on how long they've been cursebearers for. Hungers only been one for 2 months but thanks to the ring he's on the level of someone who's been a cursebearer for a couple years.
Actually, more like twenty years for a more typical Progression-type. He's also more-or-less comprehensively stronger than he would've been as a Combat-type, Curses aside.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Wolfy on Oct 12, 2020 at 1:28 PM, finished with 183 posts and 35 votes.
 
Man, sharpness and brightness are a Theme in this quest, like one-armed-one-eyed men, and things called Tyrants. What's up with that? I kind of think it's something we'll figure out one we unlock our Shroud.

Oh, is that what was going on with Yinjie? Controlverse magic is pretty clearly connected to Ordinalism in more-or-less the same way Vitalism is, going by the after-quest discussion.

What was that?

Actually, more like twenty years for a more typical Progression-type. He's also more-or-less comprehensively stronger than he would've been as a Combat-type, Curses aside.

On the subject of Yinjie I don't know. As for Right Hand of God?

It was a Conjoiner power. this was the Blurb.

[ ] Right Hand of God - As a secondary power, your hand may be released to fight on its own with superhuman skill. Its blood is a valuable Vitalism reagent. Its presence renders you immune to divination and mental influence.

Your primary power is the ability to Swear Fealty to an individual in exchange for a host of benefits. You sense that this power is still evolving, and that its subordinate nature may be changed, though you are unsure how.

Requirements for Fealty
*You must have a significant amount of unspent Depth to permanently invest in the relationship.
*The individual must agree to accept your service.
*The individual must be your technical superior in a hierarchical relationship. Mentor and student, King and noble, Counsul and praetor, etc.
*To maintain Fealty, you must interact with the individual in the context of that relationship on a semi-regular basis (at least one meeting every few days), though you are under no especial obligation to follow their instructions.
*Fealty will be broken if the individual dies or if they exert an effort of will to break the agreement, with your consent. If you do not consent, they will lose the benefits of Fealty and you will not, though they do not know this and may believe otherwise.

Benefits of Fealty
*Your Mentor's raw magical power is increased as long as your relationship remains amicable. This begins as a ~1% bonus and increases to 10% over the course of a few months, to a maximum of 20% for a years-long relationship.
*Your learning speed improves by 20% for skills your Mentor knows, or logical extensions thereof. For example, if the Kintsugi Man is your Mentor, you would receive this bonus while researching how to repair your wounds with silver rather than gold.
*You receive a power that is either complementary to your Mentor's abilities, or metaphorically associated with them in some way.
*You receive a power that could be used to counter some portion of your Mentor's abilities, or is metaphorically opposed to them in some way.
*For powerful Mentors, these powers are typically very versatile or very strong. Depth may allow them to surpass your Mentor's abilities.
*As Depth increases, you may receive additional powers with different thematic parameters, or expand on existing powers.
*All Benefits last only for the duration of Fealty.
 
That three-way vote split is funny. It's as close to dead even as it can get.

Yes, I know the actual numbers are different cause the tally's not picking up the difference between basic and committed and some people are double-voting, but still. I guess all the Cursebearers are popular in their own ways.
 
[X] The Seraph of Heroism, Haeliel [Basic, 50 Arete]

I could offer lots of justifications, but mostly, I just think the Ordinal Spiral's cool.

(Hey, maybe chrysopoeia will come back!)
 
I would not be surprised if part of the reason that Haeliel is willing to help stems from a degree of culpability for our condition.

She does reward the victims of her mythic clumsiness with Isekai-tier reincarnation. Who's to say that our truck-kun wasn't her fault?
 
Look I'll be straight with you all. I'll only begin to consider voting for Haeliel once we're anywhere near 50 Arete.

[X] Wolber Strobe [Committed, 12 Arete]

And even then, Strobe is an attractive (if not literally) option.
A Combat Type helping a Progression Type is a good pairing, since they can help us with the initial growing pains and then we can casually render deific amounts of aid later in our relationship.

A Combat Type's Apocryphal Curse is also an interesting proposition, since we're eventually going to vastly outscale him and thus can deal with what threatens him way easier eventually.

Notably I'm also intensely interested in how we can help the poor guy within the Realm of Evening.
Brand of the Wretched inflicts an awful first impression that you can change over time since it doesn't continuously update. Thus, what happens if our first impression of him is within the realm's massive mitigation bonus? Could really soften the blow there!

Realm of Evening's mitigation for his other physical curses combined with its inherent ability to generate healing objects means that he could spend nearly half of his life much less of a crippled sack of painful disease! Not cured or anything, but much less!

The point of this association it seems is to help Cursebearers cover for each other, shoring up the weakpoints in their builds and curses. Wolber identified that the biggest issue was Apocryphal and focused on mitigating that the most, leaving his physical and social stats to remain relatively cratered while he did so.

Now that he's poking around the association because he's gotten really lonely as a result of that rational but sad choice, isn't it fitting that his first point of contact could be a supernaturally charismatic friend who can heal his limbs and sickness to a decent degree?
 
Yeah, I'd like to help Wolber. But I also really want to rez Catherine!
(@Aabcehmu, that analysis post would be incredibly helpful in getting HPOH running again.)

[X] The Seraph of Heroism, Haeliel [Basic, 50 Arete]
 
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[X] Wolber Strobe [Committed, 12 Arete]

Re-realized that I don't trust us to get to 50, or even 49.

Still working on the analysis.

-e

Some basic tactics for the S9 fight, assuming More Power:

Priorities for limiting mental contamination (as the 2 Arete level provides for):
1) Retain the desire to stop being fully augmented.
2) Retain the desire to do harm to the S9 before doing harm to anyone else.
3) Retain the desire to not grievously harm Nonstop or the other allied tinkers.

Ideas for the actual combat against the S9:
Target Jack for mental contamination. He serves as the primary glue holding the group together, and his parahuman backdoor diplomacy will fail to work on you, so corrupting him will do maximum damage to the S9's group cohesion. If cohesion is lost, prioritize Crawler, Mannequin, and Shatterbird for corruption, since they are the least psychologically tied to the group and will be the easiest to turn against them. For mental enhancements, try to focus on improved reaction time and field of view, and for physical, improved speed and stamina. Avoid the Siberian, and avoid Bonesaw until Manton has been taken out, as killing her will provoke the Siberian. Killing Jack is a sufficient alternative to corrupting him, and will likely harm group cohesion as much or more. Remember that all S9 members have been significantly augmented by Bonesaw or themselves (except for maybe Manton, I forget) and will be able to endure grievous bodily harm and remain conscious and dangerous, so don't expect removing their limbs, bisecting them, or potentially even decapitating them to instantly take them out of the fight. Remember that killing Bonesaw will likely cause some significant dead man's switches to trigger, so non-lethal take-downs may be preferred.

Jack likes to play games. It may be possible to distract him and play to his arrogance by pretending to negotiate while preparing an attack, such as maybe charging up a blast of DD or an enhanced gunshot.

Talk to the tinkers about whether they're willing to have any of their gear augmented with DD, or possibly if any of them are willing to risk being augmented themselves. Corruption is a risk, but if it can be controlled it may help against Jack's backdoor. If not, encourage the other tinker's to limit their ability to communicate with Jack. If they have headphones that can scramble human speech that might work.
 
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Some thoughts:

Is Haeliel Caroline?

Probably. Here's what Caroline is:
If the universe can be thought of as a story, then Caroline is the protagonist of that story. Arthur is an inhabitant of the world simulation in the universe, not special in any way save for the powers granted to him by the Strategist. Caroline on the other hand has a fundamental ontological importance that bypasses and surpasses the raw physics of the universe. She is the only person to which this applies.

Also, the 7 strongest conjoiner spirits in Terrascape were all archangels, and Haeliel is an archangel as well. A Seraphim to be specific, which is the strongest kind of angel in the hierarchy of angels. Only Metatron, Satan, and God would be significantly stronger (I think). Does Ordinalism always follow religious ideas, or was that just the result of Haeliel/Caroline being born in a culture that puts the christian conception of angels and god as being most powerful? We do know there are other kinds of Ordinalism.

There are other forms of Ordinalism than that practiced by Enoch. It's possible you may encounter one of them, but I don't think it will be on the first world.

If Ordinalism turns people into beings that mimic whatever the dominate being is for that universe/ontology, does that mean a form of Ordinalism native to the Voyaging Realm would turn Ordinalists into Foremost?

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Are the Conjoiner Spirits from Terrascape fragments of one of the Foremost?

The spirits all came from one superbeing.

The various Conjoiner Spirits are all fragments of a hyperdimensional supervoid being that happened to be vaguely aligned with human interests (an "Angel"). It got into a fight with some Outer Evils, resulting in mutual destruction, and parts of it "rained down" (not through physical but through ontological proximity) onto Earth.

Was that superbeing Foremost? Well, the Strategist did get called Foremost a couple times.

Foremost - Your Spirit is exceptionally Skilled.
The Blade of the Foremost grants dominion over lesser Spirits.
Yo, the Expropriator isn't weak. The Strategist is just Foremost!

Notice the capitalization of Foremost in the third quote. Foremost is a noun, not an adjective. Seems possible!

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Finally, it's hard to tell but I'm pretty sure that once we initiate one person into Ordinalism they can initiate everyone else pretty easily. So if we want to turn the entire Human Sphere into Ordinalists we probably could.
 
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