You shoot the one and fight the other? If we fight multiple Hunger-relevant opponents in quick succession, it allows us to quickly deal with one, power up with xp, and fight the other without taking too much Praxis Exhaustion or negative consequences in process.

5 Heartbeat cast time. If the Terminator is in our weight class it runs Aobaru through from being as fast as we are.

Edit: The point I'm going for is, if you can solve an Apocrypha proc with one Superlaser shot, we are going to pay for it in some other way.

Edit2: Our perfect defense from Silver of Evening wasn't enough for the Hypothetical Guardian we encountered on Dearly Departed. or Runes of Mastery.
 
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Attacks and empowerment also happen to not be very rare. Veil is the only one that frees up Gisena research time, which is considerably more valuable than any of the mechanical benefits.
 
5 Heartbeat cast time.
Quickening.

Note that other builds would have no chance to save Aobaru in this scenario, unlike Deathly Star.
Edit: The point I'm going for is, if you can solve an Apocrypha proc with one Superlaser shot, we are going to pay for it in some other way.
"There has to be a reason why it is bad even if I can't think of one" is not an actual argument.

Back to initial argument, Deathly Star is
  • Really good for all the reasons brought before. It covers the gapping hole in our build, it scales with our main power source, it works very well with our Progression etc
  • It directly deals will all upcoming challenges - most are heavily combat related, so such comprehensive increase in our combat capability will greatly increase our effectiveness with deal with our tasks
  • As per above, we need to solve upcoming combat challenges. Getting something like Deathly Star now means less pressure on 5th Sign and Arete expenditure point to get power to deal with said challenges, allowing us greater freedom in future votes
Attacks and empowerment also happen to not be very rare. Veil is the only one that frees up Gisena research time, which is considerably more valuable than any of the mechanical benefits.
I mean, yeah, it's basically a free Grace. I dunno why people focus on stats instead of that. Stats are just nice value bonus on top of freeing up Gisena and, most importantly, solving the issue of stat imbalance, for both ourselves and anyone else, forever.

Even then, however, Deathly Star directly addresses power required in our upcoming fights while Veil does not, making it an easy choice here. Veil solves problems we currently don't have - which is not a bad thing, mind, as it means we don't have to do it in future, but it's not something we can do when we have pressing concerns to address.
 
Quickening.

Note that other builds would have no chance to save Aobaru in this scenario, unlike Deathly Star.

Aobaru had an epiphany/resolution/psuedo-shonen powerup scene in Phoenix Rising. Skyward Claim means Aobaru might last long enough against one of them to get another one.

He couldn't let things go on like this. Desperately Aobaru looked inside for some scrap of insight, some Chosen-One spark that would lead him to victory in this dark hour.

There was nothing. No visions of glory, no hidden potential, no promise of power just waiting to be tapped... He was just, Aobaru, as he'd ever been.

The Voyaging Realm could have chosen anyone. Why had it chosen him? He was skilled but nothing special, straight out of high school with an above-average Element and a chip on his shoulder, and now in way over his head.

He clenched his teeth. None of that mattered. If they captured both Letrizia and the Armament, who knew what could happen?

He would just do what he could with what he had. If that wasn't up to the Voyaging standard, then so be it.

Time later enough to dwell.

Aobaru closed his eyes. He'd always been a kinetic Elementalist, using his Vigorflame in conjunction with his body to evade and deliver blows. His body was ensnared but he had his Element still. Why was he acting like he was helpless?

Pulling deeply from his reserves, he exploded forth with fire, a raging sea of flames to smother all troops in his vicinity. They turned as if to finish him, but he fired a column of flame downwards, the ground beneath, weakened by their sappers, yielding to his tunnel as it had their own. Acting swiftly, one elite broke off from the group to cut him down.

Aobaru could barely see, let alone move, but that mattered not. All he needed was for them to come to him.

The enemy was clever, kicking him onto his stomach to send their sword through his spine execution-style. They probably thought he was some sort of fire-based magus, who required at least line of sight to perform his spells.

As the tip of the blade contacted his skin he sent a flare of Vigorflame through it; the explosion rocked them both and spun Aobaru like a top. As soon as he was turned, flames issued from his eyes, twin columns scorching a hole through the man's torso the size of Aobaru's own head.

Propelling himself forward with fire along his back, he slammed into the Elite and launched them bodily into the midst of the enemy. Selective pulses of fire raced out, creating struts of reinforced air that his flame could push against to maneuver his body, serving as temporary limbs to re-position his form.

He closed his eyes and felt only the presence of his Element, rushing forth and receding like echolocation. Attackers piled on but their arms detonated, even runes of spellfire consumed by unending Vigorflame. He lashed out and rotated, a blinding wheel of flame, searing limbs from bodies, plate fusing to flesh before that all-eradicating heat.

The next wave of Hunger's Pressure hit, channeled by Sharpbright as if funneled through a dam, and the Nilfellian Elite broke at last.

To their credit, they did not rout, attempting an organized retreat, but it availed them little as The Chosen One scythed them down, smashed between the anvil of Lord Hunger and Aobaru's forge-flame.


"There has to be a reason why it is bad even if I can't think of one" is not an actual argument.

With sufficient Data on past and potential Apocrypha Procs, it really is.
 
Aobaru had an epiphany/resolution/psuedo-shonen powerup scene in Phoenix Rising. Skyward Claim means Aobaru might last long enough against one of them to get another one.
Aobaru with Hunger-tier durability and Rank 8.5 stats will get crushed in moments by Hunger-relevant(or above) opponents. And he's already got the durability.
With sufficient Data on past and potential Apocrypha Procs, it really is.
Why yes, I remember how Outer Shadow didn't trivialize Prototype Armor fight or how Once and Future didn't trivialize Ber fight. Man, remember how much he had to lose to win that Armor fight even with amazing rolls?
 
The reason is p. simple my guy. Deathly Laser makes Hunger swole. This is very useful and good but might cause an issue if Hunger is ever separated from the party due to the Apocryphal since he represents anywhere from 50 to 90+ percent of the party's fighting power depending on the opponent and those numbers are only that low because the True Nullity is absolutely wild.

But as far as our currently known concerns go, Deathly Laser is the best to address them.
 
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The reason is p. simple my guy. Deathly Laser makes Hunger stolen. This is very useful and good but might cause an issue if Hunger is ever separated from the party due to the Apocryphal since he represents anywhere from 50 to 90+ percent of the party's fighting power depending on the opponent and those numbers are only that low because the True Nullity is absolutely wild.
And how is this different for any other option we take here?
 
And how is this different for any other option we take here?

Because Skyward Thrust goes some ways to evening our the relative power difference involved? It doesn't need to make them strong enough to fight Hunger, just strong enough to survive against whatever they face in his absence.
 
Aobaru with Hunger-tier durability and Rank 8.5 stats will get crushed in moments by Hunger-relevant(or above) opponents. And he's already got the durability.

Why yes, I remember how Outer Shadow didn't trivialize Prototype Armor fight or how Once and Future didn't trivialize Ber fight. Man, remember how much he had to lose to win that Armor fight even with amazing rolls?

Rank 8.5 Stats Elevated on the ISH with self-buffing. Maybe with Pure Edeldross buffs too.

We had to throw Arete at the Rotbeast to get Artful Thorn to be able to save everyone or nearly everyone. Prototype Armor was not the Apocrypha proc. The Kaiju forcing us to choose between saving Mizuku and killing the Kaiju was the Apocrypha proc we had to solve by throwing Arete at it. Ber was one data point. Other Apocrypha procs and potential apocrypha procs from way back when made fighting them more difficult by triggering Hungers PTSD, like the Tyrantbeast, or that maybe pirate maybe whaler guy.
 
Or hell, even our first encounter with Ber as an Apocrypha Proc was an entire party of hostile adventurers that were powerful enough to challenge us at the time.

Edit: If we wanted to end the threat he posed at the time we needed to neglect getting Letrezia medical attention.
 
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[x] Fourth Sign: Veil of Grandeur [Noonday Sky]
Between Ennobling, Exalted Spirit and this, our minions will have 9 CHA +s just from our buffs. 1 more and we can delegate subverting city states. RoM professional diplomats should have several of their own and decent Rank besides - should make Liberation a bit smoother.
 
[x] Fourth Sign: Veil of Grandeur [Noonday Sky]
Between Ennobling, Exalted Spirit and this, our minions will have 9 CHA +s just from our buffs. 1 more and we can delegate subverting city states. RoM professional diplomats should have several of their own and decent Rank besides - should make Liberation a bit smoother.

Veil of Grandeur Only Buffs US. The Spell frees people we cast it on from drawbacks of superhuman stats like being a memetic hazard that bends other people to their will when they don't want to be. That's all it does.
 
Because Skyward Thrust goes some ways to evening our the relative power difference involved? It doesn't need to make them strong enough to fight Hunger, just strong enough to survive against whatever they face in his absence.
It only somewhat buffs a single member of our posse, and they still have UV protection either way. I mean, they would be somewhat more useful against moobs when we are not there, but they do still have UV protection, so anything those stats would be useful against is likely something that can't really harm them in first place.

It's not that it doesn't do anything, but it's does way less than alternatives unless you go for long term Aobaru build. Which we don't have to so why bother.
Rank 8.5 Stats Elevated on the ISH with self-buffing. Maybe with Pure Edeldross buffs too.
And Hunger himself would still casually incapacitate Aobaru with Outer Shadow/Crimson Flare combo. They are just not relevant at out level.
We had to throw Arete at the Rotbeast to get Artful Thorn to be able to save everyone or nearly everyone. Prototype Armor was not the Apocrypha proc. The Kaiju forcing us to choose between saving Mizuku and killing the Kaiju was the Apocrypha proc we had to solve by throwing Arete at it. Ber was one data point. Other Apocrypha procs and potential apocrypha procs from way back when made fighting them more difficult by triggering Hungers PTSD, like the Tyrantbeast, or that maybe pirate maybe whaler guy.
We decided to "throw" Arete because we wanted to eat a cake and have it too, and even then we've spent it on one of best Advancements we've had so far.
 
[ ] Fourth Sign: Skywards Claim [Vast Empyrean] - To they who aimed always heavenwards, make right their claim.

Casting time: Fifteen minutes
Duration: Indefinite or until dispelled
Cooldown: Fifteen minutes after dispellation

The caster elevates the direct physical-combat related Attributes (Might, Agility and Wits) of one character to a level roughly appropriate for the caster's Rank.

Does not work on the caster himself. Does not benefit from the military Rank bonus of Once and Future, but does stack with Vigorflame or Ring of Blood augmentation.

The uses are varied and potent. Enhance Gisena or Aobaru to staggering heights, or make Aeira relevant again in direct combat... perhaps even augment Adorie to create a potent military force ex nihilo! Could also serve as a half-measure for keeping Aobaru in the Voyaging Realm - Skywards Claim + Undying Vanguard means that the space of opponents capable of slaying him becomes much narrower.

So, it straight up states that even someone like Aeira would become relevant again in combat for Hunger, which makes sense to me that despite the military rank gap said stats are also being augmented by Shadowcord, Edeldross, Blood Domain, as well as ISH conceptual buffs from True Vigorflame, and that the space of opponents capable of slaying Aoboru would become much narrower.

I don't think that can really be reconciled with claims that the blurb is lying and that it won't be able to generate a combatant relevant to our level or that the only people this would help Aoboru survive against wouldn't be able to harm him anyway rather then it being a rather sizeable survivability increase for him.
 
So, it straight up states that even someone like Aeira would become relevant again in combat for Hunger,
That's not the blurb states, it will just make her relevant, presumably when compared to Aobaru who already makes her pointless.

Of course, the best would be to just ship her back home so we don't waste our time and energy on her. When brunt of argument is "b-but what about useless people we keep near ourselves for no reason" you know something's wrong. Let her go live her own life instead of dragging her around.
 
And Hunger himself would still casually incapacitate Aobaru with Outer Shadow/Crimson Flare combo. They are just not relevant at out level.

We decided to "throw" Arete because we wanted to eat a cake and have it too, and even then we've spent it on one of best Advancements we've had so far.

We weren't arguing about a fight between Aobaru and Hunger.

And as you said, we paid arete to have our cake and eat it too with Artful Thorn. Before that the Apocrypha was making us choose between saving Mizuku and killing the Kaiju to save the Elixir Sovereignty. Also, opportunity cost is a thing. Artful Thorn is good but had we not spent the Arete on Artful Thorn we could have spent it on Refinement of Place or some other pick.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tangentially and addressed at the thread in general for anybody just getting here who skipped the arguing to go to the end of the thread. There is a plan for Synthesis to improve our odds of success and avoid scenarios like the Terminator attacking Aobaru while we're busy subjugating the holds or the two of us being stuck between a terminator and a deep holds apocrypha induced metaphorical Balrog. Synthesis, being an intellectual problem with meaningful stakes, is also likely to generate picks if we succeed.

Edeldross is susceptible to existential diminishment. It is the "Liminal Gloss between Real and Ideal" and the pure form "swiftly fades beneath the withering indifference of the real". The Refined Form, hereafter referred to as Elixirdross, gets described as suitable for Heroes of Legend. Given that the Foremost worked with Drosses, Edeldross/Elixirdross is a good candidate for the essence of myth who's dwindling diminished the Voyaging Realm.

Vertiginous Heights:
[ ] Edeldross: This precursor component of findross embodies redemption, perfection, restoration and the renewal of cycles. It is the liminal gloss between real and ideal, whereby the purposeless matter of the corporeal world becomes the refined substrate of supernal augmentation. Blasts, voids and shields of solidified edeldross convey the principle of 'transference without harm,' allowing the character to re-position allies and scatter enemies with minimal possibility of collateral damage. Kinetic flight is possible through continuous burst releases, but its greatest benefits are found in augmentation. Pure edeldross is semi-corporeal and swiftly fades beneath the withering indifference of the real, but contained within a person's body it holistically augments all elements of the self, supernal excellence beyond the reach of the mundane.
A Fire Woken:
[ ] Elixir (all picks, 20 Arete) - Feat: Reckoner, adding .375 Rank and upgrades Edeldross to 25-point version. A rare Advancement. Sufficient refinement of Edeldross can create a substance ontologically equivalent to findross in potency but different in character: fairer, nobler and brighter, a power not for shining paragons but for heroes of legend; not the pristine beauty of the stars, but the blinding incandescence of the Sun itself!

*In conjunction with the Ring of Blood, allows Hunger to induce the Fairbright Bloodline in himself once his effective Blood Rank exceeds 8.0. If successful, mitigates the Apocryphal Curse by one half-stage.
*Vastly expands the space of possible Graces and enormously expands their potency.
*Does not disqualify Hunger for Trinity later, as Arete spend towards his Element is not classified as belonging to any one Artifact.
*Edeldross can now heal Hunger's eye, liver, and lung. Discounts Final Form by 7 (!) Arete.
*Hunger will learn what the Fairbright Bloodline actually does. --Heartlessness.
*Lucenthorne shall seek you as an ally, for any who wields the Fairbright Essence cannot be its enemy. You need not wield it personally; it has resided in the hands of ruler and champion both.

Adorie's Blood resists existential diminishment. So what happens if we consecrate pure Edeldross with her blood? Does it stay around? To handle scalability concerns, we'll attempt to replicate Adories Bloodline with our Blood Powers, and use Skyward Claim among other things to buff Adorie so she can handle the Blood donations.

Then we use Aobaru's Vigorflame which he has very good control over because we took A Burning Spirit and can burn substances with conceptual properties to melt the Edeldross and mix it with mundane platinum, which Nilfel presumably has somewhere or we can get an Earth Mage to conjure some for us. Then it's just a case of getting the mix into molds or stamping the sheets to make myth infused platinum coins. Maybe Gisena putting a rune of ascension on the smelting furnace would help too, though we'd need Veil of Grandeur presumably for her to have the free time to do that.

I am sufficiently confident in my plan that I'm willing to offer a marker with a veto to the next 2 people to tag me with a switch to Synthesis/Skyward Claim.
 
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That's not the blurb states, it will just make her relevant, presumably when compared to Aobaru who already makes her pointless.

She already gives Shadowcord buffs in proprotion to the recipents own power, including Hunger, and was already stated that she was useful as independent asset and bodygaurd not to long ago, so she's definitely not pointless.

But again, your missing the bit where it literally states make Aeira relevant again in direct combat, not just relevant which could mean a bazillion. This is further proceeded by it talking about bringing Aoboru and Gisena to staggering heights, who don't have Shadowcord Master +200%~ self only buff to Skyward Claims exact stat boosts. What do you think being relevant in direct combat means in this context? It'd be super weird for it to be phrased that way and it turned out that it just meant...I actually can't think of a what it could mean other then increasing our abilities against opponents that are able to trouble Hunger to some degree, you know?

Of course, the best would be to just ship her back home so we don't waste our time and energy on her. When brunt of argument is "b-but what about useless people we keep near ourselves for no reason" you know something's wrong. Let her go live her own life instead of dragging her around.

Why do you phrase all your counter arguments in this exact way? It just comes off as baiting man. I get you don't like her and want her to go away.
 
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But we are arguing about fight between Aobaru and Hunger level opponent, of which Hunger is an obvious example. "Hunger level" doesn't only means stats, but powerful abilities and powers too.

And as I said, Skyward Claim buys time for Aobaru to get a Shonen Power-up/Epiphany in the scenario where us and Aobaru are fighting two separate high level adversaries in the same area. I never said stomp. I said buy time.
Edit: We've got lower odds of this scenario happening if we don't take liberation and go for Synthesis instead.

Tangentially/Addressed at the thread in general, another possibility for Gisena's free time with Veil of Grandeur/Synthesis? Mundane Plantinum conjuration if we don't have another way of getting it.
 
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She already gives Shadowcord buffs in proprotion to the recipents own power, including Hunger, and was already stated that she was useful as independent asset and bodygaurd not to long ago, so she's definitely not pointless.

But again, your missing the bit where it literally states make Aeira relevant again in direct combat, not just relevant which could mean a bazillion. This is further proceeded by it talking about bringing Aoboru and Gisena to staggering heights, who don't have Shadowcord Master +200%~ self only buff to Skyward Claims exact stat boosts. What do you think being relevant in direct combat means in this context?
Exactly what it says on the tin? Both Gisena and Aobaru are pretty strong, and this would upgrade them in a massive way. It would upgrade Aeria too, but nowhere near as close since she's super weak when compared to other two. At best, she will be somewhat relevant on their level. Of course, this also means that we will never choose to buff her instead of Aobaru and Gisena, especially as they have powerful growth ways that could use those stats.
Why do you phrase all your counter arguments in this exact way? It just comes off as baiting man. I get you don't like her and want her to go away.
I mean, she's a liability. Whenever we are making a plan she's not a part of it because she can't do anything useful. Only time we are mentioning her is when we are going out of our way to fuck up our build in order to protect someone who does fuck all.

Like, why do you feel the need to keep her around? Just let her go home and live her own life instead of stringing her along until she gets run over by a random cosmic horror or whatever. We even made Soverginity Apo-proof last vote.
And as I said, Skyward Claim buys time for Aobaru to get a Shonen Power-up/Epiphany in the scenario where us and Aobaru are fighting two separate high level adversaries in the same area. I never said stomp. I said buy time.
But that's Undead Vanguard already does?
 
Does he? Having amount of Agi and Str that more or less irrelevant at Hunger level doesn't seem like a relevant increase to his Hunger-level survivability.

Skyward Claim buffs Might(Strength/Constitution), Agility(Physical Speed), and Mental Processing Power to keep up with fast moving adversaries(Wits).

[ ] Fourth Sign: Skywards Claim [Vast Empyrean] - To they who aimed always heavenwards, make right their claim.

Casting time: Fifteen minutes
Duration: Indefinite or until dispelled
Cooldown: Fifteen minutes after dispellation

The caster elevates the direct physical-combat related Attributes (Might, Agility and Wits) of one character to a level roughly appropriate for the caster's Rank.

Does not work on the caster himself. Does not benefit from the military Rank bonus of Once and Future, but does stack with Vigorflame or Ring of Blood augmentation.

The uses are varied and potent. Enhance Gisena or Aobaru to staggering heights, or make Aeira relevant again in direct combat... perhaps even augment Adorie to create a potent military force ex nihilo! Could also serve as a half-measure for keeping Aobaru in the Voyaging Realm - Skywards Claim + Undying Vanguard means that the space of opponents capable of slaying him becomes much narrower.

The Strength/Constitution/Agility also get stuff like ISH Buffs from True Vigorflame, and in the scenario where we're fighting in the same area, potentially Pure Edeldross Buffs.
 
Skyward Claim buffs Might(Strength/Constitution), Agility(Physical Speed), and Mental Processing Power to keep up with fast moving adversaries(Wits).



The Strength/Constitution/Agility also get stuff like ISH Buffs from True Vigorflame, and in the scenario where we're fighting in the same area, potentially Pure Edeldross Buffs.
And that doesn't matter because UV doesn't stack with target's durability and ours own durability is vastly higher than what Aobaru's going to have.
 
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