A Harry Potter Quest: He who was not

[X] She had achieved what was great – She was a woman with deep intricate beliefs and someone who had strived to bring those beliefs of hers to life. Where others would have lingered in doubt and hesitated out of fear, she had simply walked on, taking all evil up on her soul to do what was needed in the end. Perenelle Flamel had been one of the few Greats walking the earth, taking the responsibility where her husband could not.

8th pirate king said:

Aren't you doing the exact same thing as well then? You're applying your beliefs of what it means and applying it to his psyche. The only definitive thing it says is that he admires the balls of the woman in doing something the great Flamel was unwilling to do. It does not speak of condoning it nor of liking it.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

The fact that Jacob can admire it at all is the problem, when your admiration for the skill of a person who committed atrocities outweighs your disgust for their actions then their is a clear problem with your views.

This is not fundamentally about how jacob sees himself. I think this is fundamentally about how jacob sees the acts that lead to his creation. How jacob sees Perenelle as well. I don't think it's reasonable to see what was done as anything but barbarous and evil.

SuperSonicSound said:

You don't wax lyrical about how deep some one is unless you're admiring them. Admiration comes with it the flavour of approval. There's no reasonable read of this passage, that doesn't see that interpretation.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

That's your personal belief mixing in with things. I admire Genghis khan but the dude was an asshole. It is very much possible to admire someone and not like them, Some of my favorite characters are assholes, great assholes true but still assholes. No one is "waxing lyrical on how deep she is" what we're saying is that the act of taking hundreds of souls to create a unique being is impressive.

This is a much better option than carrying her sins.

SuperSonicSound said:

You don't wax lyrical about deep some one is unless you're admiring them. Admiration cares with it the flavour of approval. There's no reasonable read of this passage, that doesn't see that interpretation.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

TheMortalRuins said:

The fact that Jacob can admire it at all is the problem, when your admiration for the skill of a person who committed atrocities outweighs your disgust for their actions then their is a clear problem with your views.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

By that same logic, Ollivander was also a sociopath because he was able to admire what Voldemort did, which isn't the case. You can admire what someone was capable of doing while still believing that they did something terrible.

Is thinking that she is Great the best option, probably not. But I literally cannot vote for the Monster option because I disagree with that option even more. I am against the concept of having Jacob believe that he "was wrong to exist" because there is no part of me that believes that to be true. I'm glad that he exists. In essence, I can't vote for the Monster option because I don't believe in it. This isn't me trying to have Jacob avoid feeling guilty. I just literally don't believe that he shouldn't exist and that this isn't his burden to bear. It was Perenelle's, she carried it her whole life, and then she died.

8th pirate king said:

That's your personal belief mixing in with things. I admire Genghis khan but the dude was an asshole. It is very much possible to admire someone and not like them, Some of my favorite characters are assholes, great assholes true but still assholes. No one is "waxing lyrical on how deep she is" what we're saying is that the act of taking hundreds of souls to create a unique being is impressive.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Admiration has a specific meaning which doesn't fit your use case at all really.

AS for your comment about you guys not waxing lyrical about how deep she is. I didn't say you guys did.

THE VOTE you are voting for LITERALLY DOES THIS.

Please read what you're voting for, Jacob if you choose this option literally talks about how deep her beliefs are, he's lionising her philosophy.

As to what admiration means.

admiration
[ ad-muh-rey-shuhn ]​SHOW IPA

noun
a feeling of wonder, pleasure, or approval.
the act of looking on or contemplating with pleasure:admiration of fine paintings.
an object of wonder, pleasure, or approval:The dancer was the admiration of everyone.
Archaic. wonder; astonishment.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Even if we go with the more broad archaic meaning it's very clear from the option you're choosing that Jacob disgust at her actions is completely overpowered by his view of her abilities.

ShyGuy said:

By that same logic, Ollivander was also a sociopath because he was able to admire what Voldemort did, which isn't the case. You can admire what someone was capable of doing while still believing that they did something terrible.

Is thinking that she is Great the best option, probably not. But I literally cannot vote for the Monster option because I disagree with that option even more. She was a monster, but that wasn't all that she was which is what that options states she is, "nothing but a monster". I am also against the concept of having Jacob believe that he "was wrong to exist" because there is no part of me that believes that to be true. I'm glad that he exists. In essence, I can't vote for the Monster option because I don't believe in it. This isn't me trying to have Jacob avoid feeling guilty. I just literally don't believe that he shouldn't exist and that this isn't his burden to bear. It was Perenelle's, she carried it her whole life, and then she died.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Okay, let's change the situation for a moment ignore that this is a game for a moment and we're voting for what a persons reaction is.

You right now learn that your existence is entirely due to an attrocity equivalent to murdering hundreds of people. People that were befriended and tricked before being betrayed in quite literally the most disgusting way possible.

How would you feel?

I don't believe Jacob shouldn't exist, I don't want him to feel that but that's irrelevant. The type of mind state that could state the winning option right now is the kind of person that will value other people as irrelevant as people. Jacob already has problems with not thinking of people in any other way except how they can be of use to him. Taking that option super charges this problem.

8th pirate king said:

That's your personal belief mixing in with things. I admire Genghis khan but the dude was an asshole. It is very much possible to admire someone and not like them, Some of my favorite characters are assholes, great assholes true but still assholes. No one is "waxing lyrical on how deep she is" what we're saying is that the act of taking hundreds of souls to create a unique being is impressive.

This is a much better option than carrying her sins.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

It was Perenelle's hubris that lead to the creation of Jacob and I think it's reasonable for Jacob to feel the weight of responsibility for the souls of the dead used to create him. It leads to great character development for Jacob as he realises that yes he does deserve to live and that he will live life to its fullest for all of the souls sacrificed in making him. I don't want to play a character who is unaffected by the fact that he's essentially a demon baby, I want to see a real human reaction to the situation rather than this unrealistic admiration toward Perenelle.

I'm a bit annoyed by the entitlement going on in this thread.

Edit: @ShyGuy, I'm talking about you.

ShyGuy said:

And I believe that the QM will take the discussion into account. Most of the voters seem to interpret the options as "terrible, but great", where we acknowledge that what she did was questionable at best, but that she also did do something amazing, and that more importantly we aren't to blame for what actions resulted in our birth (which is literally true and not a lie).

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

You are literally arguing to change the vote against what the text says in order to skip any sense of trauma from Jacob learning world-shattering information.

I'm not sure how the other people making that vote feel, but if even a small portion of them actually read and chose it based off of what it said, then how do you think it would look to them if the author decided to do what you're arguing for?

ShyGuy said:

By that same logic, Ollivander was also a sociopath because he was able to admire what Voldemort did, which isn't the case. You can admire what someone was capable of doing while still believing that they did something terrible.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

The word you're thinking of is awe, not admiration by the way at least for the scenario with Olivander.

We're not gonna agree. So let the votes decide.

TheMortalRuins said:

It leads to great character development for Jacob as he realises that yes he does deserve to live and that he will live life to its fullest for all of the souls sacrificed in making him. I don't want to play a character who is unaffected by the fact that he's essentially a demon baby, I want to see a real human reaction to the situation rather than this unrealistic admiration toward Perenelle.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Well, you can vote that way I suppose. If you feel that Jacob needs this obstacle in this path and that it would be great character development. Personally, I'm not going to vote for an option I don't believe to be true. As I don't believe that Jacob doesn't deserve to live nor do I believe that he is a "demon baby", I can't bring myself to vote for it.

SuperSonicSound said:

The word you're thinking of is awe, not admiration by the way.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Awe is a synonym for admiration. I'm not bringing out a dictionary to quibble over details.

Edit: We should probably drop this topic. Both sides have said their piece and if this goes on longer I doubt it will get more productive.

Edit2: Nm, I've still got some fight left in me.

My major concern is that Jacob has shown an awful lot of disregard for others thus far. The scene with Megan for instance where he was only thinking about how she could be of use to him and nothing else. I see the current winning option as supercharging this problem.

ShyGuy said:

Awe is a synonym for admiration.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Yes but with a serious undertone of something else which in that case is fear. You can be in awe of the power of a natural disaster. You can't really admire one. At least I wouldn't have thought so.

ShyGuy said:

Edit: We should probably drop this topic. Both sides have said their piece and if this goes on longer I doubt it will get more productive.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

If you really want to, I don't feel it's gotten to heated but if you feel otherwise say the word and I'll leave things be.

[X] She had become nothing but a monster – You had been created out of nothing but the results of evil. Those that had been betrayed died without knowing their fate. They had been sealed to nurture an experiment and to create something that was wrong to exist and now you must live with this burden, for it is on you to carry her sin until the day that you died.

[X] She had become nothing but a monster – You had been created out of nothing but the results of evil. Those that had been betrayed died without knowing their fate. They had been sealed to nurture an experiment and to create something that was wrong to exist and now you must live with this burden, for it is on you to carry her sin until the day that you died.

Another way that would be productive to think about this vote is to consider what the most important lesson to take from this is. I think the last option highlights the horror and wrongness of what happened.

[X] She had achieved what was great – She was a woman with deep intricate beliefs and someone who had strived to bring those beliefs of hers to life. Where others would have lingered in doubt and hesitated out of fear, she had simply walked on, taking all evil up on her soul to do what was needed in the end. Perenelle Flamel had been one of the few Greats walking the earth, taking the responsibility where her husband could not.

The end justifies the means does definitely not apply here.

She isn't someone who has used morally questionable means to achieve some great goals, after all she has stopped Nicolas from using his alchemy to help others like he wanted.

Tabula Rasa said:

"You, my child, are the creation my husband had thought of, but wasn't able to see through. And I take this last sin up on my soul to rob you of your innocence, so that when neither me nor Nicolas remain on this world, the wonder we have brought to this world is not forgotten."

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

To consider her Great is agreeing with her viewpoint that doing anything possible no matter how abhorrent to achieve your goals is admirable.

SuperSonicSound said:

Yes but with a serious undertone of something else which in that case is fear. You can be in awe of the power of a natural disaster. You can't really admire one. At least I wouldn't have thought so.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

They are interchangeable. And yes, I've admired natural disasters and what they are capable of. I didn't know that was weird. Maybe I've been using the wording wrong, but at this point it seems to be basically quibbling over semantics.

[X] She had become nothing but a monster – You had been created out of nothing but the results of evil. Those that had been betrayed died without knowing their fate. They had been sealed to nurture an experiment and to create something that was wrong to exist and now you must live with this burden, for it is on you to carry her sin until the day that you died.

I'd rather have self-loathing than deciding that making completely unnecessary hard man decisions while hard is the best way to go about things. This didn't "need" to be done and merely sticking to your beliefs isn't admirable by itself. That utterly depends on the ideals you choose to stick with.

Some of the worst crimes against humanity where commited by people stiving to bring their beliefs to live, and there is nothing admirable about them. Just as there is nothing admirable about this.

Perenelle is cool as fuck. Literally enslaving generations of souls to create a ghost baby and at the end of her life becoming subsumed into that selfsame project she chose to love is inconceivably based.

[X] She had achieved what was great – She was a woman with deep intricate beliefs and someone who had strived to bring those beliefs of hers to life. Where others would have lingered in doubt and hesitated out of fear, she had simply walked on, taking all evil up on her soul to do what was needed in the end. Perenelle Flamel had been one of the few Greats walking the earth, taking the responsibility where her husband could not.

Nicolas was a lucky man. It must have been a terrifying life but what a character he married.

While Jacob is no doubt feeling that guilt, just because he thinks Perenelle is evil doesn't mean he doesn't still love her, or that he won't walk the same road she did. This just means he'll be self aware of the gravity of what has been done.

I can't wait to see what he grows to be.

[X] She had become nothing but a monster – You had been created out of nothing but the results of evil. Those that had been betrayed died without knowing their fate. They had been sealed to nurture an experiment and to create something that was wrong to exist and now you must live with this burden, for it is on you to carry her sin until the day that you died

[x] She had achieved what was great

Nothing about the magic she did was needed. Also, I think the self loathing, third option shouldn't even be on the table while I think the first is just faulty rationalization.

Not to mention how much he thinks about ghosts and souls. What even is 'passing on' in a world where it's an option or even preventable? I'm not saying go full edgy dark lord that doesn't care about the souls of others, but he's a thinker. I think his character so far would dwell as much, if not more, on the magic itself than the results. He has a happy family after all.

Inviolable said:

[ ] She had achieved what was great

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

You have forgotten the X

SuperSonicSound said:

The scene with Megan for instance where he was only thinking about how she could be of use to him and nothing else. I see the current winning option as supercharging this problem.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Funnily enough, I see the Monster route as being far more damaging. How can you grow to love others if you cannot even love yourself? He'll become the epitome of an edgy, socially irascible teenager until he snaps out of it and realizes that he does deserve to live.
The fate of those who trusted the Flamels is not his fault. With the Monster route, he is accusing himself of the crime of being born; how could you possibly think that is acceptable? A hump to get over? Are you serious? He's a thirteen-year-old boy, for crying out loud!

And on that matter, his "disregard for others" is just basic social awkwardness. He has clearly shown a capacity for love, an interest in the world--he wants to live. How many adults can say that? How many people here can remember clearly depressive episodes, of apathy and self-loathing? I know I can, and I wouldn't wish that kind of self-doubt on anybody.
You want to take that love from him so he can struggle all over again to get it back.
I can't fathom why.

"Live to the fullest for their sake."
That's a second-place commendation, a pat on the back. That's giving up, and thinking "well, there's nothing else to be done. May as well feel bad about it and pick ourselves up later once we get it all out."
The Flamels stitched a soul together piecemeal to give us true life. I look at that and think, "we will do better. It's what they (the souls) deserve."

You say you want character development? You wish for a driving goal, to make Jacob better? Here's an idea; Jacob's driving goal will be to understand life, to study souls, and to one day create his own soul from scratch, so that he can finally set free the ones that went into his making. That's taking the success/failure of the Flamels and making it better. That's the best possible route, in my mind.
He can give those souls the respect, reverence, thanks and peace that they deserve.
The legacy of the Flamels, for better or for worse, has been passed onto him. I want to make something of it, something superior. If you hate Perenelle so much, then outstrip her. Surpass her in every way. Do what she could not, rectify her mistakes, and add more good to the world than you take.

Edit:
What kills me the most on the Megan argument though is that it's not that Jacob isn't perceptive--he actually noticed her new earrings.
He's just socially inept and didn't realize it was something he should've commented on. He's not a super charismatic social butterfly; he's styled himself as an observer, and is a fairly quiet guy. It's mentioned repeatedly that in previous years, he was a loner generally regarded as kind of nutty.
He isn't used to having friends that are his age, and it shows. His "disregard for others" as you put it is just him not picking up on social cues. The socially awkward, foot-in-mouth teen is eponymous, and Rasa has stated that they hope to be able to move past that.

Souls categorically exist in the setting.

Jacob nearly had his torn out by a dementor earlier in the story. In the books a person that has had the kiss is catatonic. Their body is still alive but there's no motive behind it. You might not like that aspect of the settings metaphysics but it is there.

So when a person dies their soul goes to another place. We know ghosts are some form of this not happening, we don't know what the other place is. I think it's pretty clear that the mutilating or destroying souls is incredibly evil.