Projectile
Thinking of Rabbits
- Location
- USA
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- US
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
Done. Based on focus group testing, there are objections to commodifying argumentation. So, I'll include argumentation on all existing vote markers. (I assume that you're using the T1, rather than the legacy marker.)
[X] Rescue Versch.
[X] Take Adorie
[X] Buy Undying Vanguard
- Location
- US
Yeah, I'm using the T1.
Use our 100+ Cha and relatively high competence to get it to our side.
Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Pronouns
- Any/All
Well, if it's actively hostile we'll have to kill it naturally. If it's just generally uncooperative, I suppose we'd need to pry into what its motivations are and see if we can persuade it with favors, or possibly find something else productive for it to do that it finds less offensive.
Rihaku
The Internet
Short rewriting someone's values, a competent negotiator understands that they should have something to offer, be it carrot or stick, ideally both!
Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Pronouns
- Any/All
It's hard to know what specifically we should offer, if we know nothing in particular about our potential employee. Mundane currency seems unlikely to satisfy them. Favors may be a more pliable currency? What does life as an astral entity entail? What are their struggles? What are things they might find useful?
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
As others have mentioned, planning to negotiate is impossible if we don't know what an astral being wants. I suppose we could fall back on power, most beings will be interested in having more power. Does Ennobling work on Astrals? Artifacts is a maybe, but that doesn't syngergize well with our choice of going to the Human Sphere next. Hard to build artifacts on the road.
Projectile
Thinking of Rabbits
- Location
- USA
Yeah, probably better to put them on non Versch-rescuing tasks. Depends on what their capabilities are- gathering info on what LP is doing, acting as a prison guard...
What would an Astral Spirit want, anyway? That's probably as meaningful a question as "what would a human want?" So, conceivably anything, but money would be the safest bet. Unfortunately, we don't have any Astralbux.
Offer to kill stuff for them later, in return for them working for us now? That's reciprocal enough, but they'd need a way to trust us to keep the promise. Ironically, Enclosure does bind Hunger to contracts, but it keeps that a secret from the summons. How annoying.
Rihaku
The Internet
That would certainly improve the space of cooperative recruits!
Rihaku
The Internet
Given that you are almost certainly taking Adorie along and also strongly want to buy Undying Vanguard (is this necessarily wise?), non-Oblique members may want to consolidate into an action plan! If Undying Vanguard goes through you'll only have about 3 Arete left to potentially spend on Supreme Enclosure / Gisena Artifact (if any) acquisitions...
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
[X] Shock & Reason
[X] Don't Take Adorie
Shock and reason plays directly to our strengths, Hunger can stomp in direct combat and Gisena is unrivaled in social.
Taking Adorie just means we're going to end up spending a bunch of arete on her instead of OaF II or Sword in the stone.
[X] Don't Take Adorie
Shock and reason plays directly to our strengths, Hunger can stomp in direct combat and Gisena is unrivaled in social.
Taking Adorie just means we're going to end up spending a bunch of arete on her instead of OaF II or Sword in the stone.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
Rihaku's participation in the build discussion is one of the parts of his QM style that I appreciate the most. I can't comment on the entire discussion, but from page 1610 onward, there were several Devil's Advocacy posts that are worth considering. I think there are more facets of the decision to consider, but his points are worth reiterating emphatically, so I have tried to do so with this effort post.
(700 Words)
TLDR:
1. Undying Vanguard isn't a guarantee of safety
2. Undying Vanguard doesn't play nicely with Oblique Methods
3. Oblique Methods itself has room for a wide variance in outcomes, and the outcomes for 0-Arete choices might not be worth the lost time
With all due respect to Mister R, the first post seems pretty much like fear mongering. Undying Vanguard does not need to stop the Apocryphal curse alone! It is a component in Hunger's toolkit, and it makes Hunger's other abilities more effective. UV buys time for Hunger to assist his friends. If we ever buy Iridescence, it will make esoteric attacks like the one used against Versch much less effective. That one 5-Arete purchase cannot stop the Apocryphal Curse in its tracks is not a strong argument for opposing UV during this update.
However, Rihaku does invoke the name of a more powerful curse: The Doom of Anti-synergy. My strongest argument for Undying Vanguard is that we have the momentum now, for this update specifically. Having it now provides protection against traitors and sneak attacks. However, traitors and sneak attacks are always a danger. If we choose Oblique Methods, then there is no immediate threat that will be solved with Undying Vanguard.
Meanwhile, thread activity during this update cycle has felt a bit slow: 125 posts between Rage of War and the latest update, and then 163 posts discussing the build options at the 26 hour mark (approx). By contrast, the discussion for the story post where we stomped Ber had 148 posts, and the build vote about the Fish picks had 346 posts (although admittedly some of that was dealing with me having a public meltdown).
It might not be fair to ask the Arete miners to push hard for an omake storm when the discussion modifier is so average. I personally only have about 1000 words of (creative!) fan-content in reserve. It is not a guarantee that other effort posters will be inspired by the options that cost Arete in the Oblique Methods update. That would leave us with a budget of between 3 Arete (minimum) and 6-7 Arete (going by 2 arete per update x2 for Aabcehmu's radical Arete generation modifier).
Oblique Methods seems particularly dependent on Arete to deliver results. There is mention of Royalist aristocrats besieged in their estates: that's a potential Arete expenditure. There is mention of Astral Beings with esoteric utility effects: that's a potential Arete expenditure. There is mention of rapid Artifact creation by Gisena: you best believe that's an Arete expenditure. Given Undying Vanguard's strong support, Oblique Means voters should consider whether the 0-Arete versions of each of these oblique methods of attack are more valuable to Hunger than an additional hour or hours will be to the Lord Protector.
At the final calculation, that's what we are choosing between. The Lord Protector has a head start, so any action that we choose needs to gain ground to make up for the time we lost to our Fishing trip. If we beeline to Versch, there is likely a trap. Sure. But if we don't beeline to Versch, the LP is only going to compound traps on top of traps, preparations on top of preparations. Someone upthread asked whether the 25th hour of prep is more valuable to the LP than the 1st hour of Prep for Hunger. That's a good question, but it needs to be modified:
Is the 25th hour of prep more valuable to the LP than the 1st hour of prep is for a Hunger who only has 3-5 Arete to spend?
As I mentioned above, there are some considerations that aren't addressed here, like where Adorie goes. But those will have to wait for a different effort post to be aired.
(700 Words)
TLDR:
1. Undying Vanguard isn't a guarantee of safety
2. Undying Vanguard doesn't play nicely with Oblique Methods
3. Oblique Methods itself has room for a wide variance in outcomes, and the outcomes for 0-Arete choices might not be worth the lost time
Rihaku's Discussion Questions said:
With all due respect to Mister R, the first post seems pretty much like fear mongering. Undying Vanguard does not need to stop the Apocryphal curse alone! It is a component in Hunger's toolkit, and it makes Hunger's other abilities more effective. UV buys time for Hunger to assist his friends. If we ever buy Iridescence, it will make esoteric attacks like the one used against Versch much less effective. That one 5-Arete purchase cannot stop the Apocryphal Curse in its tracks is not a strong argument for opposing UV during this update.
However, Rihaku does invoke the name of a more powerful curse: The Doom of Anti-synergy. My strongest argument for Undying Vanguard is that we have the momentum now, for this update specifically. Having it now provides protection against traitors and sneak attacks. However, traitors and sneak attacks are always a danger. If we choose Oblique Methods, then there is no immediate threat that will be solved with Undying Vanguard.
Meanwhile, thread activity during this update cycle has felt a bit slow: 125 posts between Rage of War and the latest update, and then 163 posts discussing the build options at the 26 hour mark (approx). By contrast, the discussion for the story post where we stomped Ber had 148 posts, and the build vote about the Fish picks had 346 posts (although admittedly some of that was dealing with me having a public meltdown).
It might not be fair to ask the Arete miners to push hard for an omake storm when the discussion modifier is so average. I personally only have about 1000 words of (creative!) fan-content in reserve. It is not a guarantee that other effort posters will be inspired by the options that cost Arete in the Oblique Methods update. That would leave us with a budget of between 3 Arete (minimum) and 6-7 Arete (going by 2 arete per update x2 for Aabcehmu's radical Arete generation modifier).
Oblique Methods seems particularly dependent on Arete to deliver results. There is mention of Royalist aristocrats besieged in their estates: that's a potential Arete expenditure. There is mention of Astral Beings with esoteric utility effects: that's a potential Arete expenditure. There is mention of rapid Artifact creation by Gisena: you best believe that's an Arete expenditure. Given Undying Vanguard's strong support, Oblique Means voters should consider whether the 0-Arete versions of each of these oblique methods of attack are more valuable to Hunger than an additional hour or hours will be to the Lord Protector.
At the final calculation, that's what we are choosing between. The Lord Protector has a head start, so any action that we choose needs to gain ground to make up for the time we lost to our Fishing trip. If we beeline to Versch, there is likely a trap. Sure. But if we don't beeline to Versch, the LP is only going to compound traps on top of traps, preparations on top of preparations. Someone upthread asked whether the 25th hour of prep is more valuable to the LP than the 1st hour of Prep for Hunger. That's a good question, but it needs to be modified:
Is the 25th hour of prep more valuable to the LP than the 1st hour of prep is for a Hunger who only has 3-5 Arete to spend?
As I mentioned above, there are some considerations that aren't addressed here, like where Adorie goes. But those will have to wait for a different effort post to be aired.
Tyrant_Rayne
Probably Not Evil… Maybe
- Location
- Canada
[X] Shock & Reason
[X] Take Adorie
[X] Buy Undying Vanguard
Too much can go wrong with oblique. Shock is effective and so long as we play our cards right in the negotiations Versch should be safe.
[X] Take Adorie
[X] Buy Undying Vanguard
Too much can go wrong with oblique. Shock is effective and so long as we play our cards right in the negotiations Versch should be safe.
Projectile
Thinking of Rabbits
- Location
- USA
[X] Oblique Means.
[X] Take Adorie
I suppose I can take a hint. ;_;
[X] Take Adorie
I suppose I can take a hint. ;_;
Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Pronouns
- Any/All
[X] Oblique Means.
[X] Take Adorie
Dropping UV for the moment. If we're lucky, the maximum arete option for Supreme Enclosure will be 7, and we'll have enough to pop UV right after.
-e
Man, what even would an EFB Astral be? How intensely bullshit would it have to be, to only be Rank 9 and to only be around for a year and yet still be worth 25 Arete?
[X] Take Adorie
Dropping UV for the moment. If we're lucky, the maximum arete option for Supreme Enclosure will be 7, and we'll have enough to pop UV right after.
-e
Man, what even would an EFB Astral be? How intensely bullshit would it have to be, to only be Rank 9 and to only be around for a year and yet still be worth 25 Arete?
Last edited:
Enohthree
Hypersane
Now, what could an Astral want?
We can offer currently:
Money
Blood buffs
Edeldross buffs
Vigorflame buffs
Recognition from the Elixir Kingdom
A title as payment for helping the King of Elixir during this time of crisis
A Gisena Artifact to be presented after services rendered
The flesh and bone of a newly slain Armament Fish the size of a continent that we're not doing anything with
Political favors from Liz's house as thanks for maintaining her position
Bringing Adorie along means she could be pressured to give up things like
Way way more money
Mystical enchantments
Hunting grounds
Priceless artifacts
Mythical beasts to do with what they wish
Supreme Feasts
The acclaim of billions once we sort this out
in exchange for Hunger not murdering her people as much.
Honestly it comes down to the simple issue that we have no idea what Astral beings want.
So, thought experiment time!
We're Astral Hunger, summoning one of those strange non-Astral humans to do our bidding. We don't know what humans like or would do in exchange for stuff. Normally you could just pay an Astral denizen astral hula-hoops, but humans are so strange that they might not accept that as currency. And while you can gihalavente them, are they interested in that? Are they going to work for werthabgas either? Maybe, maybe not.
We don't know much about humans, but we do know that Astral Lord Protector does know about humans, at the very least knows enough to regularly summon them and get them to do his bidding. We're enemies so we can't just swing buy and ask for advice alongside a cup of Astral sugar cheese. But we do know that he's paying them somehow, and that he's good at it.
Clearly the best bargaining chip of all for these negotiations is "you can have whatever Lord Protector was selling off to acquire the services of Turn E and other strong astral beings."
We can offer currently:
Money
Blood buffs
Edeldross buffs
Vigorflame buffs
Recognition from the Elixir Kingdom
A title as payment for helping the King of Elixir during this time of crisis
A Gisena Artifact to be presented after services rendered
The flesh and bone of a newly slain Armament Fish the size of a continent that we're not doing anything with
Political favors from Liz's house as thanks for maintaining her position
Bringing Adorie along means she could be pressured to give up things like
Way way more money
Mystical enchantments
Hunting grounds
Priceless artifacts
Mythical beasts to do with what they wish
Supreme Feasts
The acclaim of billions once we sort this out
in exchange for Hunger not murdering her people as much.
Honestly it comes down to the simple issue that we have no idea what Astral beings want.
So, thought experiment time!
We're Astral Hunger, summoning one of those strange non-Astral humans to do our bidding. We don't know what humans like or would do in exchange for stuff. Normally you could just pay an Astral denizen astral hula-hoops, but humans are so strange that they might not accept that as currency. And while you can gihalavente them, are they interested in that? Are they going to work for werthabgas either? Maybe, maybe not.
We don't know much about humans, but we do know that Astral Lord Protector does know about humans, at the very least knows enough to regularly summon them and get them to do his bidding. We're enemies so we can't just swing buy and ask for advice alongside a cup of Astral sugar cheese. But we do know that he's paying them somehow, and that he's good at it.
Clearly the best bargaining chip of all for these negotiations is "you can have whatever Lord Protector was selling off to acquire the services of Turn E and other strong astral beings."
Rihaku
The Internet
It's interesting that that's the component you would drop, however! You could simply change your action plan and keep Undying!
- Location
- Earth
[X] Shock & Reason
[X] Take Adorie
[X] Buy Undying Vanguard
[X] Take Adorie
[X] Buy Undying Vanguard