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A Simple Transaction I

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Non-meme reasons: basically what Unelemental said.

To my current spotty knowledge, the Lord Protector is a expansionist who wants power. At the moment Hunger represents an enormous threat, and the capture of Verchlengorge makes it more, not less, likely that Claumngor will be willing to negotiate.
His options for preserving his life are all-in on conflict VS Hunger, perhaps sacrificing Verchlengorge, or use his hostage to pursue favorable terms.
I think he's pretty likely to take the latter, given Rihaku called him pragmatic. The more he learns about Hunger the more appealing it becomes to hitch his wagon to Mr. Progression.
 
BrainInAJar said:
I don't actually think there's 0 chance of him pulling the metaphorical trigger given the explicit warnings of Crush Them. We do have to proceed as if there are significant risks for Versch. And again if you are fine with risking Versch, why negotiate at all? We can just kill him. No need to give him even a chance to inconvenience us or Adorie. Just kill him.
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Because I think he is has a sense of self-preservation? The risks to Versch depend on whether the Lord Protector is willing to trade his life for an Armament, and a diplomatic approach will clearly make him less willing to pull the trigger than one where we don't give him an opportunity to survive.
 
In my mind, I have a hard time imagining the LP killing Versch outside of Crush Them. Versch is currently his only card to really play against us. If he kills Versch, there is almost no reason for us to not just immediately murderize him with extreme prejudice, so I don't see how he'd convince himself to do it unless he thought that his life was already being directly threatened.
 
[X] Oblique Means.

I am favoring this for now. We chose enclosure over break of storm or pennants so we may as well use it. While giving the Lord Protector more time isn't the best, we are still absurdly beyond him in power and all defeating. Also it would be neat to see.
 
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Oblique means also works pretty well with Triumphal Gleam. Even if we fail to rescue Verch with our summons help, we might end up in an far stronger position due to an number of legion possibly joining us.

Edit: Lord Protector might also decide to come to the negotiating table himself if he thinks he can't defeat us but I wouldn't bet on it.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by ReaderOfFate on Sep 5, 2020 at 7:05 PM, finished with 55 posts and 17 votes.
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Unelemental said:
Because I think he is has a sense of self-preservation? The risks to Versch depend on whether the Lord Protector is willing to trade his life for an Armament, and a diplomatic approach will clearly make him less willing to pull the trigger than one where we don't give him an opportunity to survive.
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The diplomatic approach will also tell us how much we value Versch, thus increasing the chance he'd push for a favorable deal to him. Especially if getting Versch back ourselves is extremely dangerous, like the option implies. If so, his death might lose us Versch for quite a while! Having him as a hostage is useless if he doesn't intend to leverage it. Our position is not superior enough as to where we can just take Versch from him. Therefore, it's something he can leverage safely because we might not get it back even if we do kill him, making his death pointless for us. So there's a very real chance he threatens Versch for better terms. And if we call his bluff, he can just not tell us where it is and not disable its defenses. So I do actually think getting his only real point of leverage against us out of his hands is what should be our priority here.
 
BrainInAJar said:
The diplomatic approach will also tell us how much we value Versch, thus increasing the chance he'd push for a favorable deal to him. Especially if getting Versch back ourselves is extremely dangerous, like the option implies. If so, his death might lose us Versch for quite a while! Having him as a hostage is useless if he doesn't intend to leverage it. Our position is not superior enough as to where we can just take Versch from him. Therefore, it's something he can leverage safely because we might not get it back even if we do kill him, making his death pointless for us. So there's a very real chance he threatens Versch for better terms. And if we call his bluff, he can just not tell us where it is and not disable its defenses. So I do actually think getting his only real point of leverage against us out of his hands is what should be our priority here.
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We're in a situation where he is effectively our hostage. We can threaten him, he can only threaten Versch. Of course he can try and push for more favorable terms, but in the end Hunger isn't an idiot and has massive social bonuses on his side. He might get good terms for his treatment in the aftermath if he gets lucky, but we aren't going to leave him in power, nor are we going to exchange Versch's life for our own or our companions', so what exactly do you think he'll demand that is so terribly worse than walking into his trap?
 
[X] Oblique Means.

Taking Adorie while walking into what we know for fucking certain is an ambush is a non-starter, it just hands the Protector more leverage, yet that combination seems to be leading. She's not loyal enough to truly benefit from Vanguard, and it can't be applied to Versch yet. The only rationale I can see there is Hunger using the last Mirellyian as a human shield, banking on the Protector's reluctance to kill her. I understand people are concerned about our Armament, but recall the last time we walked into a trap and the choices we had to make there, between a dead companion, maiming, and a threat that's yet to materialize. Don't be deceived into believing we got off scott-free because we're not staring the consequences in the face. If we allow fear of the Apocryphal Curse to prevent us from utilizing Supreme Enclosure, it's denied us the ability entirely. A summons could expand our options significantly, change this situation's strategic complexion entirely.
 
Unelemental said:
We're in a situation where he is effectively our hostage. We can threaten him, he can only threaten Versch. Of course he can try and push for more favorable terms, but in the end Hunger isn't an idiot and has massive social bonuses on his side. He might get good terms for his treatment in the aftermath if he gets lucky, but we aren't going to leave him in power, nor are we going to exchange Versch's life for our own or our companions', so what exactly do you think he'll demand that is so terribly worse than walking into his trap?
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You are literally betting he has zero chance of forcing us to call his bluff, and when forced to do so you just say Hunger will do ???? to try to counter it. Can Hunger magically make him un-threaten Versch?

The option just straight up says he won't accept to be imprisoned without believing he would just die otherwise; he will definitely try to push to retain power and threaten Versch to do so. It doesn't matter if we kill him if we can't actually retrieve Versch, especially when threatening comes at basically no cost to him, and if we call him on it we might get burned. If we accept the risk to Versch, why negotiate at all? It's just giving him free shit. The very trade-off of Shock is that we might get unfavorable terms in exchange for Versch's safety. Like seriously, what if just ties the wellbeing of Versch with his own, either magically or in the negotiation? If we kill him Versch dies, if we let him stay with power he goes, and that's the baseline he sets. That's all he needs to do. No need to threaten Versch directly, even. Just having him decide Versch fate within the negotiation is just too much risk to it. It's better not to play his game.
 
[X] Shock & Reason
[X] Take Adorie
[X] Buy Undying Vanguard

I'm also more than open to consolidating on anything that isn't walking into the laid out trap.
 
BrainInAJar said:
You are literally betting he has zero chance of forcing us to call his bluff, and when forced to do so you just say Hunger will do ???? to try to counter it. Can Hunger magically make him un-threaten Versch?

The option just straight up says he won't accept to be imprisoned without believing he would just die otherwise; he will definitely try to push to retain power and threaten Versch to do so. It doesn't matter if we kill him if we can't actually retrieve Versch, especially when threatening comes at basically no cost to him, and if we call him on it we might get burned. If we accept the risk to Versch, why negotiate at all? It's just giving him free shit. The very trade-off of Shock is that we might get unfavorable terms in exchange for Versch's safety. Like seriously, what if just ties the wellbeing of Versch with his own, either magically or in the negotiation? If we kill him Versch dies, if we let him stay with power he goes, and that's the baseline he sets. That's all he needs to do. No need to threaten Versch directly, even. Just having him decide Versch fate within the negotiation is just too much risk to it. It's better not to play his game.
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It's not a perfect solution and we might have to exchange some things for Versch's life, that's what happens when we get sucker punched like that. We won't get the ideal resolution of getting him on board as an ally or completely imprisoning him unless we roll really well during the negotiations, but we aren't letting him stay in power either, since that would threaten Adorie. Exile seems like an outcome that would satisfy both parties, and we can take our time to disarm whatever booby-traps he leaves behind with Gisena's help.

You keep talking about the negatives of Shock & Reason, but in my mind the risks of the Rescue Versch option are far worse. Let's assume for a moment that it won't be a fight for our lives, though I wouldn't exclude the possibility due to him contacting the Shard of the Arcanist or some other entity that could threaten us. If you think the situation is bad now, imagine us walking in there and getting caught there for some time due to some esoteric effect. It needn't be too long, just enough for him to marshal his forces and capture the rest of our party. Congrats, we've freed Versch now, but instead everyone else (except maybe Adorie if she followed Hunger) had been captured, good luck saving them now.
 
Hm, if we do decide to spring the trap it'd behoove us to know what our non-Vanguard flash purchasing options are. Monster-Defeating is relevant only if Versch has been fully subverted, but what are the other two components of the Foe-Defeating Stance?
 
[X] Buy Undying Vanguard
[X] Take Adorie

I'm not really sure about actual strategy per say, but I do know that finally getting the ability to apply our +Redonkulous protection toward our allies is a Good Plan.

It also occurs to me that Inherit the World has some good synergy with Crush Them and/or Shock & Reason, where we get +50% benefit from our massive Protection and half social penalties for killing all of these soldiers.
 
[X] Oblique Means.
[X] Take Adorie

I can accept Orm's reasoning, and any option that doesn't risk Versch is fine by me, he's kind of important. Rescue is ahead for now anyway; so let's promote some other options so it doesn't get hit with the full might of Devil's Advocacy!
 
[X] Rescue Versch
[X] Take Adorie
[X] Buy Undying Vanguard

We have to do this for our big hungry boi.
 
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I'm liking Oblique Means- aside from the summon, we get to Cut Through gently! Honestly, Adorie is asking far too much for Hunger to go easy on the 1. enemy 2. army when we're 3. losing, but if we need to spare the time for summoning anyway, why not?

Also, the true statement that LP has better esoterica is misleading. For one thing, he's had 24 hours to prepare already. Taking Hunger's preptime from 0 to 1 hour is surely a good trade for the price of letting LP have a 25th hour. And also Hunger is stronger, like the option says, so ceding the magic field to him entirely isn't needed. ++Adorie is actually important this time. Normally, I say "nice, but whatever" for relationship +'s, but if we buy UV it'll be of great benefit. It combos well with bringing her along, there's excellent opportunity for Princess Bullshit.

An hour isn't thaaaat much time, and I'm betting on Versch holding out until then, but I don't have the heart to seriously argue against anyone voting on the principle of "Versch nao," 'cause that's totally fair.

[X] Oblique Means.
[X] Take Adorie
[X] Buy Undying Vanguard
 
Unelemental said:
You keep talking about the negatives of Shock & Reason, but in my mind the risks of the Rescue Versch option are far worse. Let's assume for a moment that it won't be a fight for our lives, though I wouldn't exclude the possibility due to him contacting the Shard of the Arcanist or some other entity that could threaten us. If you think the situation is bad now, imagine us walking in there and getting caught there for some time due to some esoteric effect. It needn't be too long, just enough for him to marshal his forces and capture the rest of our party. Congrats, we've freed Versch now, but instead everyone else (except maybe Adorie if she followed Hunger) had been captured, good luck saving them now.
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Hunger does intend to take Gisena with him, as she provides potentially crucial utility and negation effects he would otherwise lack!
 
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