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A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Because there appears to certain degree of confusion, let us revisit the Grail Keeper:
What Grail does is merely to stop Decimator targeting our subjects and makes it target us instead - although it still targets other living things within our lands.
That being said, given that Fisher King unlocks Sword in the Stone, I wouldn't be surprised if it upgraded it to improve Grail Keeper in some way. Perhaps our lands would be shielded too while the Sword is planted.
Now, people think that Grail Keeper specifically poisons the lend and so on, on top of causing Hunger to suffer Affliction. However, this is not the case. Consider the working:
This would imply that Decimator already does entire rendering the land barren thing base - which makes sense given that Decimator doesn't just affect humans. In practice, this means that even our enemies will end up with barren land and stuff, on top of dying from Decimator.
What Grail does is merely to stop Decimator targeting our subjects and makes it target us instead - although it still targets other living things within our lands.
That being said, given that Fisher King unlocks Sword in the Stone, I wouldn't be surprised if it upgraded it to improve Grail Keeper in some way. Perhaps our lands would be shielded too while the Sword is planted.
- Location
- Pindorama
Well played, lizard.
[X] Sharpening the Blade [4 Arete]
I was actually thinking the other day how nice it was to not get any new conditions for a while, except wait, we totally did and Aobaru's nemesis just hasn't arrived yet. We've kind if underestimated the opposition once before to significant consequences; let's make sure not to do that again. Safety should ideally come first, after all.
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That's the same mistake people were making with Ber, however. Like, I've managed to argue folks into getting Crown/Tears, which made Rank build that much stronger, but we still had many arguments to take short term choice because muh Ber. Just make efficient choices and we're good.
One thing to consider is that Fisher King doesn't actually lock us into getting it. We'd like to get that value asap, of course, but given that most of it provides long term value we won't be sad if we are forced to put it off to get something relevant to situation at hand. In theory we could put it off for like twenty updates and still not lose much of value its provides.
Besides, as with other options we need to finish, having Fisher King not finished will act as sort of Progression+ as Rihaku tries to bait us away from it. Still, as long as we start working on it now, we can get it at our leisure, so it shouldn't impact our upcoming fight with Aobaru hunter.
Another thing to consider is that we might get some sort of King trinity, what with Winter King, Fisher King and then another King advancement. KSA is the only one we were offered so far, I think?
Rihaku
The Internet
Some sort of divinatory ability to locate Aobaru's nemesis if or when they appear would certainly be helpful there... perhaps a Sign?!
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
Ah, right, the vote.
[X] Forebear's Blade: Fisher King [12 + 12 Arete]
[X] Forebear's Blade: Fisher King [12 + 12 Arete]
I am the 🦴 of my 🤺
Steel is my 👃 ➕ 🔥 is my 🩸
I have created over a thousand 🗡
Unknown to 💀,
Nor 💡 to 🧬.
Have withstood pain to create many 🔪
Yet, those ✋ will never 🧑🤝🧑 anything
So as I 🙏, Unlimited Blade ⚙.
That's ➡. I ❌️ create ⚔. I create a 🗺 that ∈ infinite ⚔. This is the only 🪄 allowed for
EDIT: I am trying to speak that weird language that the youngsters are using. Do you understand me Projectile?
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Enohthree
Hypersane
We don't lose too much value on terms of +Progression sure (Aside from the 50% rank gain) but it's not like it exists in vacuum. We would be losing effectively 8 Arete and Honing's wit and int buffs as well as Evening Sky's ability to weaken all forms of magic just before walking back into the realm where even the random town guard people's basic swords literally hum with magic. That's no small thing to be going without. Now that Ber's dead and a week has passed Gisena's Tide of Nulity is back on the table for use. Iridescence lets Evening Sky not be dispelled when it goes off, imagine how less hyper lethal the Sten fight would have been for us if our 75-90% damage reduction modifier wasn't turned off while he was Nulitied.
There's also something of an argument to make that by not getting Honing and unlocking the next level of Blood advancements we're wasting the +Progression we have for all blood advancements already.
Yeah, but you are not pissing those resources away, we are investing them into powerful long term value.
My point is that we don't really need to realize that value right away. We want to, but depending on situation getting something more pressing is perfectly fine too.
There's also an argument that trying to get new set of Blood Advancements with Honing is pointless until we get Pillars due to how rare picks are right now.
Alright, people, look. We took Second Priority, we are planning to go to the Human Sphere - we really need that specific brand of Mitigation that Fisher King gives us because hunting for a Huntress Moon targets acceptable to the thread inside of the Human Sphere... Have you considered what sort of Huntress Moon targets are going to be available to us in human Sphere? Let's look at our two previous attempts to get A Hunger, Sated to proc.
In the Voyaging realm, a world of easy-to-find epic monsters and disparate high fantasy human policies, the land of JRPG adventure Huntress Moon most of the targets offered to us as of late were; considerably exhausting a vital, central resource of a Policy we ruled, the singular man keeping his nation from devolving into civil war, to buy and a Baby Armament. Before that, it was a major cultural/magical landmark we needed to participate in a civil war and a fishing contest that, behind all memes, probably also was of some significance.
Literally no Huntress Moon target on the list was an easy choice. They all had a price. They either have some sort of high value in the local context or are insanely dangerous. Possibly both - see our current Opalescent misadventure.
Now imagine most of these, put in the context of the Human Sphere. Imagine Huntress Moon giving us an Armament target, killing which would be either an invitation to the all-out war between interstellar policies (because we just killed someone's WMD) or a great betrayal of an ally, who relied on that armament for centuries as a pillar of stability and power. Imagine Huntress Moon giving us a major Republican/Imperial politician or Noble as a Huntress Moon target. Imagine it giving us the vital infrastructure of some space colony or a strategic reserve of valuable resources as a Huntress Moon Target.
The point is, inside the Human Sphere our ability to act as a murderhobo without negative consequences is sharply curtailed. We need an alternative way to get Huntress Moon Targets and a way to ensure that a major interstellar policy does not decide that Hunger really should just keel over and die under the boot of Armament (or three) instead of decimating its citizens. Our power has grown immensely, it'll keep ballooning for a bit while we deal with things Lord Protector is throwing at us, and after that, we are going to pick up Pillars - a way to ensure we continue growing. Price of mitigation lapsing only ever going to continue growing.
And so will the difficulty of finding Huntress Moon targets too. Yesterday, it was the Opalescent Tower. Today, it is an Armament Fish. What it is going to be tomorrow? Or the day after tomorrow?
Pillars solves this issue - to an extent. They are not absolute. They are not infallible - Realm of the Evening needs Hunger to manually calibrate it to make it work, and there is always a chance of failure. Fisher King increases the amount of effective Huntress Moon targets and doubles the length of Hunger Sated periods, effectively quadrupling mitigation that Pillars could provide.
Unless we plan accordingly, and buy correct advancements, our stay in the Human Sphere risks being a total shitfest. On top of whatever muddy political nonsense, PLOT HAPPENINGS and Apocryphal procs that are going to happen over there as is. Fisher King is that advancement.
In the Voyaging realm, a world of easy-to-find epic monsters and disparate high fantasy human policies, the land of JRPG adventure Huntress Moon most of the targets offered to us as of late were; considerably exhausting a vital, central resource of a Policy we ruled, the singular man keeping his nation from devolving into civil war, to buy and a Baby Armament. Before that, it was a major cultural/magical landmark we needed to participate in a civil war and a fishing contest that, behind all memes, probably also was of some significance.
Literally no Huntress Moon target on the list was an easy choice. They all had a price. They either have some sort of high value in the local context or are insanely dangerous. Possibly both - see our current Opalescent misadventure.
Now imagine most of these, put in the context of the Human Sphere. Imagine Huntress Moon giving us an Armament target, killing which would be either an invitation to the all-out war between interstellar policies (because we just killed someone's WMD) or a great betrayal of an ally, who relied on that armament for centuries as a pillar of stability and power. Imagine Huntress Moon giving us a major Republican/Imperial politician or Noble as a Huntress Moon target. Imagine it giving us the vital infrastructure of some space colony or a strategic reserve of valuable resources as a Huntress Moon Target.
The point is, inside the Human Sphere our ability to act as a murderhobo without negative consequences is sharply curtailed. We need an alternative way to get Huntress Moon Targets and a way to ensure that a major interstellar policy does not decide that Hunger really should just keel over and die under the boot of Armament (or three) instead of decimating its citizens. Our power has grown immensely, it'll keep ballooning for a bit while we deal with things Lord Protector is throwing at us, and after that, we are going to pick up Pillars - a way to ensure we continue growing. Price of mitigation lapsing only ever going to continue growing.
And so will the difficulty of finding Huntress Moon targets too. Yesterday, it was the Opalescent Tower. Today, it is an Armament Fish. What it is going to be tomorrow? Or the day after tomorrow?
Pillars solves this issue - to an extent. They are not absolute. They are not infallible - Realm of the Evening needs Hunger to manually calibrate it to make it work, and there is always a chance of failure. Fisher King increases the amount of effective Huntress Moon targets and doubles the length of Hunger Sated periods, effectively quadrupling mitigation that Pillars could provide.
Unless we plan accordingly, and buy correct advancements, our stay in the Human Sphere risks being a total shitfest. On top of whatever muddy political nonsense, PLOT HAPPENINGS and Apocryphal procs that are going to happen over there as is. Fisher King is that advancement.
That's actually something we were talking about yesterday. Is Favor some kind of currency you spend on stuff, or some kind of passive benefit?
According to AST 0, it's both. Having certain amount of Favor would make Accursed to be positively inclined towards us(3 was enough for "Not Uninterested", as an example) and would come in to help us in case that our case is dire enough. However, if we call in the Favor when situation doesn't call for it, we would lose some of Favor - which effectively means that you can pay with Favor to have Accursed do stuff.
Exact effects of Favor are unknown, of course. We might be capable of using it to trade with other Cursebearers, to have personal training sessions/tips from Accursed or other Cursebearers, gain random goodies here and there etc. However, that's beside the point. What we know, and what we need, is that it allows us to summon Accursed himself to kick ass.
Now, being sure that we won't die to rando omniversal mucking about has obvious utility, but real value of this is that it makes it so Apocrypha can't just shoot us. While we have vastly outscaled her general procs, she is still capable of triggering higher tier procs that posses capability to endanger or even kill us. That means that, yes, at any given point Apo had, and will have, ability to just kill us, and only reason she didn't do that is because her sense of fairness.
Needless to say, we shouldn't rely on her sense of fairness not to kill us in years to come. With Favor, we preemptively solve that issue, eliminating risk of "Apo just decides to kill us" from our danger sheet.
It was also enough to be able to get inviolate and immutable.
Hmm, do we know that they were granted due to Favor?
Enohthree
Hypersane
See I thought that as well, but apparently it's much easier to find acceptable Huntress Moon procs in the Human Sphere simply because you can look them up through their internet equivalent instead of having to brute force pull factual information out of the air with no indication of what even to begin searching for.
I imagine mitigation options will still be hard, yeah, but it's probably going to be easier to find things like that Annual Fishing Tournament when you can trawl through hundreds of planets all in various stages of their year with divergent cultures and distinct populations.
Context; that statement is from early on of the quest, before we got Decimation Lens or before Hunger balooned in power to the point where fighting an Armament is no longer an impossible dream. Fishing contest in particular was a viable HM target... Four EFB ago.
Things changed since then. We google our Huntress Moon target, and we get, well. I wrote an effortpost on what we are going to get, most likely.
That aside, hunt requires time and effort to do. Without Pillars, Fisher King increases availability of targets(thus reducing amount of effort and time required to Sate Hunger) and double duration of fish-based Hunger, again reducing yearly amount of time and effort required to Sate Hunger.
Like, consider scenarios. We want to do something, but we have to Sate Hunger first, so we need either to compromise, rush or delay whatever we wanted to do.
Of course, once we get Pillars this ball really starts rolling. Not only that we massively increase amount of non-Decimator time Pillars can provide, but we also reducing amount of time and effort required to get non-Pillars Hunger Sated as per above.
Like, consider scenarios. We want to do something, but we have to Sate Hunger first, so we need either to compromise, rush or delay whatever we wanted to do.
Of course, once we get Pillars this ball really starts rolling. Not only that we massively increase amount of non-Decimator time Pillars can provide, but we also reducing amount of time and effort required to get non-Pillars Hunger Sated as per above.
- Location
- Earth
[X] Sharpening the Blade [4 Arete]
Argh, I'm sorry guys - I've been up against a real stubborn creative block for the past while and haven't been contributing as much as I would like to lately.
I'm not opposed to Fisher King at all, but I cannot in good conscience vote for the expensive non-immediate-power option when I know I can't put my Arete where my mouth is at the moment. Though, I suppose Fisher is leading quite well, so maybe we'll still end up getting it?
Argh, I'm sorry guys - I've been up against a real stubborn creative block for the past while and haven't been contributing as much as I would like to lately.
I'm not opposed to Fisher King at all, but I cannot in good conscience vote for the expensive non-immediate-power option when I know I can't put my Arete where my mouth is at the moment. Though, I suppose Fisher is leading quite well, so maybe we'll still end up getting it?
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The utter simplicity of it all is a pretty big factor, yeah. Don't waste time and nerves in useless debates about the morality of killing Lord of the Stalks or other such nonsense; don't risk your live hunting for 3-picks-or-more monsters, don't give Apocryphal more openings to fuck you up; just double down on the Vault Grinding Realm of The Evening and Don't Worry About It.
Dealing with it later is much worse than dealing with it now, relatively painlessly after all. A bunch of Arete and Defining slot is a good investment into not having periodically rehash the debate about how we are all terrible, terrible people for allowing a single day of decimation befall on some middle of nowhere planet, or even risking such.
Wish opportunities like this were more common; and this opportunity is not rare just because this is a Defining 5-Pick 25 Arete advancement; advancement, but stuff that deals with Decimation mutigation in this manner is basically non-existant. We got like, one advancement that gave us 0.5% decimation mitigation early on in the quest, and that was pretty much it.
Dealing with it later is much worse than dealing with it now, relatively painlessly after all. A bunch of Arete and Defining slot is a good investment into not having periodically rehash the debate about how we are all terrible, terrible people for allowing a single day of decimation befall on some middle of nowhere planet, or even risking such.
Wish opportunities like this were more common; and this opportunity is not rare just because this is a Defining 5-Pick 25 Arete advancement; advancement, but stuff that deals with Decimation mutigation in this manner is basically non-existant. We got like, one advancement that gave us 0.5% decimation mitigation early on in the quest, and that was pretty much it.