@Kurowari I 100% agree with you that these are imaginary people that never appear, I don't remember the debate largely being about someone being 'evil' for voting one way or another. Like, I'm absolutely one of the people involved in the morality debate, but even at my most salt-filled, when I said that, "The thing that bugs me about Tower is that I literally can't come up with a moral justification for why it's an acceptable pick compared to the other options." -- the central question was, " What would it say about Hunger if he took this option?" To my recollection, most people were arguing about what the choice said about Hunger as a character. Given that, I don't really see how it wasn't a clearly labeled debate about aesthetics.

All that said, I'm very sorry that it depressed your interest in the thread, and am more than happy to drop it if you'd like. I just (admittedly, perhaps unfairly) feel like the arguments that I/others made are being characterized incorrectly.
 
Fanwork#1352 Words of Quest-in-Quest planning
The concept is this: me with Devildoor, versus Earth Bet. (You can click the element name for its' writeup.)
Ohhh no, that place is bad enough without you corrupting it! Luckily doors go both ways, at least if you pay 25 Arete for the privilege. 23 more than we have. Let's call it a work in progress.
By default I drop in a high-combat zone with Devildoor at Second Gate, putting me fairly close to Burnscar's canon powerset - craziness and Bonesaw mods included. The main differences are that my flame can buff others at the cost of sharing the mania, and that I can forego the mania entirely in exchange for the buffing and the teleportation.
Are you a crazy enough dude to save the worlds? Let's find out.

Any of these immense tasks seem like too much for Devildoor to handle- so I shouldn't think of that. We have a Horatio who knows the future accomplishing these tasks, and Devildoor is one of his tools. And since dealing with threats is a good way to stop civilization from collapsing, I want to pick both to get more tools. But which ones?

[ ] Devil's Toolbox
I start in an area with several Tinkers and some preptime. Payment or persuasion will be necessary, but I will get some kind of benefit; depending on play this could be the strongest starting build or the weakest. If the former, not overwhelmingly so.
What does DD Horatio have to trade? Evilgoop, buffs, and teleportation. Any secrets that hypothetical generic tinker would leap on and also be able to verify? Hm. I'll chew on this.
[ ] Go Further
I start with the third Gate, capable of summoning Evil Elementals - which could easily be A-Rank minions in this setting, with the right prep. This does make the Final Gate moderately more difficult to reach in-game, though; I can't use the Third as part of my path to it, so it'd require an appropriate sidequest rather than being unlockable through the main questline.
Erk. My first thought was "Man, we gotta get the Final Gate for this," so that downside is unfortunate. But summons are useful. But they skew towards evil, and without an easy method of control they're less so.
[ ] Guardian Angel
I'm guaranteed no hostility from Zion or the Simurgh unless I've already tried to kill them; the latter's plans will treat assisting me as a lowest-priority secondary goal.
Nice! Especially if you're going with House of Gold, this stops you from getting Mannequin'd (Sphere'd? The dude himself will still go after you lol). Do want.
[ ] Boss Rush
I begin with an armored backpack containing the brain of Cleanroom, a Cloaker with the power to send himself and others to a mirror world made of white blocks. Though he's sedated, his power can be activated in three modes - shift all parahumans in a two-mile radius, all humans in the same radius, or his wearer and anyone they're touching. Manual escape is possible by reaching the edge of the radius, but only a very few powers can cross over directly.
Externalizes responses to a personal threat... and yep, that sure is an AoE power. It'd be useful to have a mostly safe place, but carrying around a brain is scary. What happened to that poor dude? Then again, you've already got Devildoor, so might as well go all in on the scariness. Also conveneint for vwoorping bad guys... do they come back in the same position relative to the Earth, or relative to Cloaker?

...why is it called Boss Rush, that's ominous.
[ ] Express Train Number Nine
A running battle between the Slaughterhouse Nine and the Railway Tinker, Nonstop. American countryside, August 2, 2010. Nonstop is attempting to execute the Nine's kill orders, with assistance from the Guild. Barring intervention, Nonstop will die within a day and a half.
The utility of railways for strengthening civilization is obvious, I'm already getting excited about trains and I haven't explored that mindset since I was 10! You just have to fight the S9 for them. With your "make people more evil" powers. No big deal.
[ ] Fourteenth Apocalypse Zone
Borlänge, Sweden. Former industrial and immigration hub, now a periodically-bombed labyrinth mostly dominated by metal ghouls. Was the site of a cluster trigger resulting in multiple Army-Tinkers, all presumed dead by now.
June 27th, 2010. The surviving creations have adapted again; a major breakout is due in three weeks. This Zone has been active for eight years and expanded twice, although it is presently considered quiescent.
An earlier start time than the S9 and the Onslaught, so I'm inclined to it for that alone! But the danger is incredible, was once Machine Army not enough for you, Horatio?

Unlike with the S9, there's no immediate need for you to fight, just get the hell out of there. With your portal power, which is theoretically the most useful thing to have in such a circumstance. But how to get corruption on the outside of the zone? With the Third Gate, you could summon an elemental and let it go wild thataways, and leap through it's corruption. Assuming you can get rid of it afterwards. With only the second, you'd have to streeeetch. And probably do some running, not geting noticed by the crazy AI in the meantime. M-maybe they're nice, and the "apocalypse" thing was an unfortunate miscommunication?
[ ] Onslaught's Wager
Fifteen rogues and villains, some of eastern europe's finest, are touring the continent and offering a boon to anyone who can hold off all fifteen of them in sequence. There's obviously something fishy going on beneath the surface, but as lethal force is banned this is theoretically the safest opening option. This would drop me in Amsterdam on November 19th, 2010, but if you pick an earlier starting point I could theoretically track them down by the last week of October.
Not only is this sketchy as hell, Devilsdoor evilifies people so they might soon find that they're not that interested in refraining from lethal force. But you don't have to use it, fifteen of the "finest" villains would be a huge undertaking anyway, so just let them beat you up! Because you, with the mind-altering powers, are sane enough to not retaliate! Wait, no.

It's also the latest starting point, so sadface. How long do we have, anyway? Golden Morning is on December 2013, according to the wiki's timeline, but you should off Jack before then, and the degradation of world stability that convinced Cauldron to go with that hail Mary is something you need to stop anyway. But you still need time to do that.

Presumably Onslaught gets a power boost from organizing onslaughts, and being able to share the power explains both the boon and the cooperation. Possibly Teacher-like brainwashing, but there's no real evidence. I can't see an easy way to win anyway, so it doesn't matter much.

How would Devil's Toolbox interact with the 14th AZ anyway? Are there holdout tinkers? Oh, nevermind, I see the "presumed."

[D] House of Gold
[D] Beasts of Apocalypse
[D] Guardian Angel
[D] Go Further

[D] Fourteenth Apocalypse Zone


The earliest start time at the cost of having to deal with killer robots and border guards. Fortunately, you have better superpowers and a little bit of luck to help you survive. You have to save the world eventually, but for now you only have to worry about surviving. The easiest Worm SI plan is to look in the mirror and say "Doormaker" three times, but Horatio's the one getting isekai'd and something tells me he isn't too fond of Cauldron, so that's out. ;)

Since he has Surgecraft powers, he should try to ask the Accursed for help instead! He's the ender of stories, though, so we have to assume he won't respond. Moving down the list, you can ask the Evil Elementals for help! If their behavior depends on the type of evil in the place you create them, you have a smidge of flexibility. What kind of Evil would create a relatively obedient embodiment? Well, we are in an apocalypse zone full of evil robot minions- the minion part didn't stick, but maybe you'll have more luck.

So much here relies on luck, but for some godforsaken (oh yeah, that's probably it) reason you're the Simurgh's waifu. Lowest priority, sure, but she's not too busy, she lazes around in space all day. She's not actually an angel, so it'd be double blasphemy to pray to her, but you could write a letter if you have any special requests! She might get around to them in a few thousand years.

But the plan- hunker down, grind Devildoor until you have a decentish understanding of it (with a focus on expanding the cloud for teleportation reasons... might be hard to be subtle doing that), then send a rampaging elemental to break containment, before teleporting to it. If it can't make it, you could send more? Or wait to join the machines in their attempt, but we're trying to save the world here, not destroy it.

The other path would be to take on the robots and clear out the area, but if it's been like this for eight years someone else would have done if it was that easy. Nah, come back later.

So, assuming you're free, you might have a bad reputation as a quarantine breaker- not too sure how this part of Bet would deal with that, but it's Worm so I'm being pessimistic. Also, evil powers don't help. But other than that, the world is your oyster! You have superpowers, a gigamurderer has your back, and there's plenty of time to save the world! It could take care of itself for the most part if it weren't for the brutal grinding attrition, so step two is to make the world a better place through some good old-fashioned ultraviolence.

Step two of the plan is getting rid of all the S-class threats. It's an ambitious plan, okay?

You should probably avoid getting the label of S-class threat yourself in the process. That'd be a bit of a catch-22. So in addition to all the other reasons teamwork is a good idea, you should get into low-level heroics. With the Swedish government, after you explain (most of) your situation to them? I don't know anything about Bet Sweden, and not much more about ours tbh. Hopefully they don't just arrest you for being an illegal immigrant. Your first big target might be the Apocalypse Zone itself, that would be a good story! And have an eye towards joining the Guild?

Man, the mid-term would be so much easier with a successful S9 start, wouldn't it. I might switch to that.

The problem now is that you don't have enuff dakka. Sidequest to level up? Either that, or practicing your buffs enough to make all your new friends' powers soar! Wwait a minute, that tickles my brain. Uh.

Step 2.5: Don't get kidnapped by the Yangban.

Fucking Worm, I swear.

Step 3: ????

Step 4: Profit

If and only if you follow these steps exactly, you will survive. Congratulations, you saved 10^80 Earths! As a reward, the Forebear now thinks you're kinda nifty.

For a name, Devil's Bargain would work, if you don't mind that it's a bit derivative.
 
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Question about the Grail @Rihaku

It makes people barren but if someone is pregnant does the baby/fetus die? Or is it that no one can get pregnant while Hunger is using the grail but anyone already pregnant isn't affected?

If it's the former rather than the later I'd argue that the Grail is more harmful than the regular decimation because that just takes life force off the top of everyone marginally but Grail would snuff out the entire life and potential of whoever is affected.
 
@Sara:
Thank you for pointing out that my contributions to the thread have gone off the rails. It is not fair to dump IRL stress onto you and the other players. It is unfair and out of line to keep flinging salt into the thread about a discussion from weeks ago. I apologize for the ongoing "pithy and sly comments" (which was a very diplomatic way to say that i've been consistently rude). I will cut that shit out immediately.

Apologizing for ongoing negativity means that I also need to apologize for accusing other players of hypocrisy. If it was unfair when people said that I was morally bad for voting for Tower, then it is also unfair for me to call people morally bad for their own votes. My decision to retaliate to this weeks-old topic was also out of line. I am sorry for the way that my posts could have further escalated the thread derail, and I will make sure it doesn't happen again.

The last part of your 5th paragraph is one that really caught me off guard. During the Tower vote, I did not intend to make any accusations about your actual moral system. The football/TV example is meant to be a philosophical device aimed at attacking a philosophical idea. That my presentation of the thought experiment turned into a personal attack is a serious failure in communication on my part. I am very sorry that my argument got personal. I will be much more careful in the future to separate the person making an argument from the argument they are making.

Overall, all these apologies are really just admissions that I made the thread less fun for you to read. There's not a lot I can do in terms of restitution, but I promise that I'll make an active effort to change my behavior.


@BrainInAJar :
You pointed out a week ago (or more?) that my negative attitude was hard to engage with, and I'm sorry I didn't change my behavior sooner. I don't think the characterization of slippery slope is exactly right, but it is probably best to let the thread move on. Thanks for engaging in the discussion regardless.


@Kurowari
I'm doing an apology tour here so I'm not really in a position to debate the merits of moral arguments in the thread. I think it would be safe to say that I'm sorry for making the thread less fun for you to read. So, I apologize for my part in initiating that cycle of morality debates and especially for my indulgence today.

However, I am not going to apologize for the details of how I play the marker mini game. The T3 markers have always determined my vote for one vote option. That's the entire point of them: they offer fine grain control for when only one vote option is controversial. As for the argumentation, if Orm wanted a refund, or an upgrade for his remaining markers, or for me to change my behavior during the vote cycle he was (and is) welcome to something himself. As it stands, Omake/Argumentation power explicitly strengthens the option for which I cast my vote. I could've put out ten thousand words of poetry about why "Just a Moment" was a better option, and Rihaku would've counted it towards "Never Better."

The novelty of the vote power / fan engagement system is completely fascinating to me. There are still some interesting interactions to explore and I intend to commodify and trade every distinct element that I can isolate.
 
[X] Sharpening the Blade [4 Arete]

I'm voting against Fisher King, but yes I do believe that intentionally risking harm in the present is worse than opening up the option to maybe harm less people in the future under the assumption that the lesser harm will be less fought against.

That said, lose one eye and lung?
We, uh, only have one of those. Each. And yes we're on track to eventually heal them but I'm not a fan of things like Rune King leading to blindness or Runes of Master making us unable to take in air at all.

Hunger could pretty much heal them with his current level of power, he just needs more time to do so!
 
As it stands, Omake/Argumentation power explicitly strengthens the option for which I cast my vote. I could've put out ten thousand words of poetry about why "Just a Moment" was a better option, and Rihaku would've counted it towards "Never Better."
Not to get too far into the weeds here, but wouldn't argumentation (not omake in general) be done with the intention of overcoming that? Like if you put out 1.5k words of argument for option A while being bound to vote for option B, you're doing so hoping that said argumentation will peel off enough votes from B to A (alongside a mix of the newly flipped voter's argumentation) to make A win despite your argumentation word count. Because, well, you want A to win even if you're not voting for it, hence the attempt at convincing others to vote for it.
 
Not to get too far into the weeds here, but wouldn't argumentation (not omake in general) be done with the intention of overcoming that?
I mean, sure. I won't say that I was inside the norms of existing vote markers. But...

(1) poking at those norms is really interesting: imagine a trade of [fervent argumentation now] for [high quality fan content on the next vote where we are aligned]. There are some interesting agreements that haven't been negotiated because of inertia in the vote market. Or, like, one could organize a synchronized drop of fan-work to get a surge of Arete + Discussion multiplier that we wouldn't otherwise have.

And

(2) my estimate of my ability to flip people's votes going into the "Priority Two" and "never better" votes was very low. I would not have predicted anybody would change their mind based on what is essentially a determined effort to regurgitate the highlights of Rihaku's blurbs. (After today's tantrum I suppose I'd better reset the persuasion estimate back to "very low"...)

So there's some combination of deliberate norm-pushing plus the idea that Arete generation / vote power effects will overshadow any serious breach of existing norms. I will point out that I backed down & apologized when LoM pointed out manipulating your own vote markers undermines the entire economy. The vote-marker shenanigans are entertaining for me only so long as everybody involved feels like they were treated fairly.
 
(557 words of subquest engagement.)
I'm really, really not a fan of Boss Rush, it's really icky. Guardian Angel has good synergy with Beasts of Apocalypse. Devil's Toolbox is good, Go Further penalizes growth and that's a big downside in my book.
Toolbox would certainly be able to help him, provided you take both! Might be highly synergistic actually; the pack is pretty solid tinkertech.
It's indexed under Devildoor Me, which I think is at least a passable pun.
I don't remember what that's a reference to, although I'm almost certain I've seen it before.
Anyway, your vote is reasonably solid, but here are some things I think you've missed:
Go Further provides the necessary power to survive boarding the Express Train; the ability to weaponize the evils of a place when the Slaughterhouse Nine are present has obvious synergies.
There is obvious synergy, but it would likely be much easier to evoke useful atrocities from the Nine's wake than from their current battleground. It does require at least a little bit of prep, moreso if you want something controllable.
As you aren't a parahuman and aren't subject to Broadcast, the UMI effects of Devildoor could disrupt the Nine's teamwork (tenuous at the best of times) to bring home the win. You can split the money/glory with Nonstop and make a debut as an individual willing and able to put down the true monsters.
An interesting plan, and an ambitious one. Directing the UMI like that requires some dubiously ethical training to pull off reliably. Do you think I'll have time?
Go Further impeding progress is unfortunate, but by declining to Spill the Cauldron you can get Contessa's assistance in Pathing your way to it.
This may also be optimistic. Both mes believe that canon-Cauldron's plans really don't make sense for their stated goals, and while SI-me may suspect his Cauldron isn't canon's, he's still not going to trust Contessa any more than he can kill her.
Possibly less.
Externalizes responses to a personal threat...
I take it you're referring to the "grab opponent and warp out" tactic, here?
do they come back in the same position relative to the Earth, or relative to Cloaker?
Both? The worlds are fairly similar by default; the blocks are just easier to take apart and harder to otherwise process.
...why is it called Boss Rush, that's ominous.
It's actually a joke based on "whiterooming" a fight.
The utility of railways for strengthening civilization is obvious, I'm already getting excited about trains and I haven't explored that mindset since I was 10! You just have to fight the S9 for them. With your "make people more evil" powers. No big deal.
:lol:
An earlier start time than the S9 and the Onslaught, so I'm inclined to it for that alone! But the danger is incredible, was once Machine Army not enough for you, Horatio?

Unlike with the S9, there's no immediate need for you to fight, just get the hell out of there.
That would be one option, but think of the rewards from going on a dungeon crawl!
How would Devil's Toolbox interact with the 14th AZ anyway? Are there holdout tinkers? Oh, nevermind, I see the "presumed."
Might be an adventuring party breaking quarantine! Or they might be paying me to go in and retrieve something for them, payment presumably including ID and/or transport.
The earliest start time at the cost of having to deal with killer robots and border guards. Fortunately, you have better superpowers and a little bit of luck to help you survive. You have to save the world eventually, but for now you only have to worry about surviving. The easiest Worm SI plan is to look in the mirror and say "Doormaker" three times, but Horatio's the one getting isekai'd and something tells me he isn't too fond of Cauldron, so that's out. ;)
Oh, you noticed?
Also, I'm not sure Doormaker listens for his name like that - I think those boys are programmed to listen to Cauldron leaders and no-one else. Calling the PRT hotline would likely work better, although saying a bunch of Cauldron codewords to thin air is also worth a shot - if you're willing to take the risk that they'll just shoot you.
They're really kind of jerks.
So much here relies on luck, but for some godforsaken (oh yeah, that's probably it) reason you're the Simurgh's waifu. Lowest priority, sure, but she's not too busy, she lazes around in space all day. She's not actually an angel, so it'd be double blasphemy to pray to her, but you could write a letter if you have any special requests! She might get around to them in a few thousand years.
I should clarify that "lowest priority" means "if no higher priorities conflict, including 'conserve energy'". She's really not going to go out of her way for me, even if she's not dumb enough to look like she's helping me if that would be a net detriment, as @Unelemental feared.
Step two of the plan is getting rid of all the S-class threats. It's an ambitious plan, okay?
:rofl:
The problem now is that you don't have enuff dakka. Sidequest to level up? Either that, or practicing your buffs enough to make all your new friends' powers soar! Wwait a minute, that tickles my brain. Uh.

Step 2.5: Don't get kidnapped by the Yangban.

Fucking Worm, I swear.
They don't seem to have much in the way of mind control, so that'd probably be a net upgrade for me. On the other hand, it wouldn't be as effective as filtering them all through Butcher.
Man, canon Worm has so many missed synergies. Cauldron not having Valefor is definitely the strangest, but the Yangban could have gotten a lot of use out of Heartbreaker, Cherish, and Butcher. Butcher would've needed to be kept quiet I suppose, but capes keep killing them - the latest version just disappearing one day would cause a stir, but not a huge one. And Cherish might be trickier to find, but would be so worthwhile.
For a name, Devil's Bargain would work, if you don't mind that it's a bit derivative.
I'd considered Wake the Devil, but decided it wasn't clever enough.

This vote will probably close some time tomorrow, incidentally. As of now it's unanimously for Beasts of Apocalypse, unanimously against Spill the Cauldron, and strongly in favor of House of Gold, Guardian Angel, and Express Engine Nine. Not what I expected. Seven voters so far, not too shabby!
Now, will anyone change their votes in response to this information...
[DD] House of Gold
[DD] Beasts of Apocalypse
[DD] Devil's Toolbox
[DD] Boss Rush
[DD] Express Train Number Nine
[DD] Beasts of Apocalypse
[DD] House of Gold
[DD] Devil's Toolbox
[DD] Guardian Angel
[DD] Fourteenth Apocalypse Zone
(A difficult-to quote vote for:)
[D] Beasts of Apocalypse
[D] Go Further
[D] Express Train Number Nine
[D] House of Gold
[D] Beasts of Apocalypse

[D] Go Further
[D] Guardian Angel
[D] Express Train Number Nine
[D] House of Gold
[D] Beasts of Apocalypse
[D] Go Further
[D] Guardian Angel
[D] Express Train Number Nine
[D] House of Gold
[D] Beasts of Apocalypse

[D] Go Further
[D] Guardian Angel
[D] Express Train Number Nine
[D] House of Gold
[D] Beasts of Apocalypse
[D] Guardian Angel
[D] Go Further

[D] Fourteenth Apocalypse Zone
 
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Curious if Fisher-King will unlock fishing advancements. We've kind of left Hunger' one hobby by the wayside in our Apex Flight, it would be nice to go back to it after we've handled the Lord-Protector. Perhaps a day or two of recuperation before we rush off to Voyaging City and work on extracting our companions? Too bad we don't have Heavenly Tomb. Might actually be yet another good place to get RW, I'm sure there's something within the space of all possible Graces that would allow for relatively easy extraction.

Regardless, we've been pushing our boy quite hard, we should take our own advice and enjoy the quiet moments of joy that we can steal away.
 
"Honk Honk, Ho-Honk Honk HON-"

"QUACK!"

"Honk? Hon-Honk Honk?"

"Quack Quack... Quack!"

"HONK!"

"Quack Quack, Qu-Quack Quack... Quack!"

*Cinmatic Battle of Magical Duck Fighting his Archnemis and Evil Twin Technological Goose*

"hon... honk?"

"Quack Quack, Quack ... Quack Quack"

[X] Forebear's Blade: Fisher King [12 + 12 Arete]
 
[X] Forebear's Blade: Fisher King [12 + 12 Arete]
urgh... convinced that a 5 pick is too rare to pass up. posting images in a bit to put my money where my mouth is leading me
 
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