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A Simple Transaction I

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[X] The Armament Fish

Three-pick fights are the only thing the thread is willing to risk since we're not willing to commit our Uttermost and seek out 4 pick (or above) fights, so I'll take what I can. Cool fight scenes against an Armament are not only sick, they give us an idea of what to expect in opposing an Armament - something quite possible now that we've committed to the Human Sphere plotline. It'd be nice to see how these mecha-kaiju fight, particularly one that hasn't been weakened like Verschlengorge, though given its infant status I don't expect the Armament-Fish will display the full spectrum of Armament tactics and powers. It'll be a start though!

Plus, fight-based recklessness that risks only Hunger's own personal wellbeing and life is the best kind of recklessness! Remove all of the dumb moralizing and complicated responsibilities to others that a 'hero' and a 'king' is burdened with, by engaging in some life (and death)-affirming battles! Cut Through, even if we have to Cut Through all of the politics and civilization-stuff consuming the thread (especially if that's what we're going to be Cutting Through)!

Screwing up another kingdom after we just stomped into Nilfel, nommed the Tower, stole the Crown Jewels of their nation's highest office and the Princess just drives further down the ill-fitting characterization route of Hunger, so I'm not looking forward to Lord of Stalks even if it's easy. And honestly, it just doesn't sound that interesting - no LORE, no fights, no relevant character connections barring the inevitable enemy that arises from Planar Delta after its political and social upheaval (even if they are a weakling) - two enemies (Chains and Ber) is enough for me, thank you very much. Leave behind this crappy moral quandary in the dust of our escape from Nilfel!

Territorial Waters leans further into the kind of recklessness and greed characterization of Hunger that I don't like, so it's not exactly something I'm keen on particularly since I feel we have more of a responsibility to the Sovereignty than other civilizations. I'd rather not taint the Rotbeast victory with any unnecessary shadows of deficiency, especially when our political performance was merely adequate during our stint in the Empty Throne. Plus, not weakening the Elixir-Waters probably at least keeps the possibility of the Elixir Imperial Advancement alive, if we ever feel like springing for an EFB Imaginary Element and the power of the Fairbright Legacy! So that's a plus I'd rather keep handy, if we're able to take it in the future.

Armament Fish just sounds like the kind of story direction I'd actually like though. Gotta to vote for F I G H Ts whenever possible! Hunger has already proven thoroughly that his best self manifests only in matters martial, so let's just lean on his strengths.
 
Orm Embar said:
That his family would be relieved at his death implies he's abusive on a personal level. The option can be read otherwise, but it takes a fairly charitable interpretation to reach a different conclusion.
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Yeah sure but at least we aren't damming an entire civilization to be dammed and destroyed.

Do note that the people he rules under is happy and prosperous and that is is a keen, cunning, and reliable ruler.

Sure he may be a prick but damming a civilization to ruin just because their leader is one doesn't sit well and quite frankly, alot of the thread as well who chose this option to not fuck over the citizens of the niffelhem empires lifespans which gives ample time for the tyrant to prepare and fuck us over.

We chose decimators priority to not be a douche who steals the lifespan of millions which i can get behind morally. Killing someone because their an inane fucking prick however sounds outright retarded and quite frankly, a bad characterization for hunger who will most likely lose mental stability for damming an entire civilization once prosperous to the dogs in the voyaging realm.

I get the idea that it's safe, quick, not much of a death chance but everything surrounding the option just sounds icky to me. I'd rather have a Hunger greedy yet still striving for more, seeking to change that which is deemed by the higher powers that be unchangeable and cruel rather then a Hunger who is cold hearted and willing to dam millions for his own personal growth.

JUST FUCKING CUT THROUGH!?!
 
[X] The Armament Fish

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[x] Magical_Duck

Who could argue against such verbosity?
 
[X] The Armament Fish

Fishes are for Eating, the natural order must be restored.

Just think, Armament Fish kabobs, Armament Fish fillets, deep fried Armament Fish, Armament Fish sashimi!

There should be more then enough for every one!
 
[X] Territorial Waters

I don't dislike fish per say.
But I really really hate the idea of Stalk.

Consider, if you will, the idea that Huntress Moon targets are not equal but roughly in the same ball park when he hunt for them. Fishing Contest and Tower probably weren't exactly as hard as each other, but they were miles away from killing that one rando pirate with half of the Forebear's Blade stub.

Now imagine the entire bundle of 'can kill you' and 'incredibly shiny' and 'memes' of the Armament Fish. Now imagine all of the karmatic weight of these dangers and risks and such was converted to 'very easy, it's what happens afterwards that's awful'

Yikes. If not for us directly, almost certainly for the people who have been living happy and free with no moral trade off like the Temple aside from being led by serious jerk who makes sure that his rotten personality has no bearing on his subjects at large.


On the flipside, we broke Rank 10 blood casting and the population of the Elixir Kingdom is measured in the millions as opposed to the tens of billions.
It's possible that we could pay them back right now, or at least put in a sizeable down payment if we put our Ring to it. Granting Surgecraft powers to the adult population might be a decent trade off for people.
 
Enohthree said:
Now imagine the entire bundle of 'can kill you' and 'incredibly shiny' and 'memes' of the Armament Fish. Now imagine all of the karmatic weight of these dangers and risks and such was converted to 'very easy, it's what happens afterwards that's awful'

Yikes. If not for us directly, almost certainly for the people who have been living happy and free with no moral trade off like the Temple aside from being led by serious jerk who makes sure that his rotten personality has no bearing on his subjects at large.
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Agreed. Stalk is bad.

Social collapse means that supply lines for medicine and food are disrupted. If you want to talk about casualties: all the patients "on the bubble" that were at risk under Decimation? They're going to be the ones who die during the anarchy resulting from killing this lynchpin to their government. So that's the consequentialists taken care of.

If you want to talk about Moral Guidelines: Hunger is treating this guy's life as a mere means to his personal goal, rather than a person with inherent moral worth. Morally speaking, being an asshole is not a capital crime. So that's the Kantians taken care of.

If you want to talk about Virtue: So far, Hunger has not been the kind of person who kills a stranger for his own convenience. Murder (followed by anarchy) does not fit into any kind of heroic ideal. So that's the Aristotelians taken care of.

It's late so I could be missing something obvious, but if the Decimator-First voting bloc really cares about moral valuation then it's hard to reconcile votes for Stalk.
 
[X] Territorial Waters
[X] The Lord of Stalks

For fucks sake, it's time to pull back from the stupid characterization if we don't want to die in the long run. Lord of Stalks death can be mitigated by simply asking Adoria's legions to conquer the place in the aftermath and Territorial waters is such an low price, that I am starring in disbelief, in 55 years we will be strong enough to give them something far stronger than Elixer shit and it's not like they aren't getting shinies from Nilfel. Simply take the goddamned freebies.
 
SpectatingRaven said:
Just dropping in to give some of my thoughts not back to vote and debate again.

The Armament Fish might face the same conundrum as the Opalescent Tower. Namely, that we can either get the Hunger Sated condition and permanently lose access to this Armament or risk it again to get a nascent superweapon...
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If we make THAT decision again I'm dropping the quest.

Rihaku said:
This isn't really fishing to Hunger, since Hunger isn't aiming to catch a Fish, only mercilessly hunt down and slay it!
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So... whaling then?

DkArthas said:
[] Territorial Waters
[] The Lord of Stalks

For fucks sake, it's time to pull back from the stupid characterization if we don't want to die in the long run. Lord of Stalks death can be mitigated by simply asking Adoria's legions to conquer the place in the aftermath and Territorial waters is such an low price, that I am starring in disbelief, in 55 years we will be strong enough to give them something far stronger than Elixer shit and it's not like they aren't getting shinies from Nilfel. Simply take the goddamned freebies.
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I agree with your reasoning from The Lord of Stalks. I disagree with your reasoning on Territorial Waters because it represents a form of treachery against those Hunger rules.

We've been directly called out on Hunger being a reckless and greedy monarch who relies on being able to use his personal power to pull solutions of thin air, no matter what the costs and risks are to the little people. I do NOT want to amplify that characterization with "preys on the people when he doesn't have to."

I'd rather kill the Tyrant of Stalks, then rely on Adorie's help to conquer and administer the place.

Let's take the low risk to us and to the people we rule, for once.

[X] The Lord of Stalks
 
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The people led by Stalks are explicitly noted as happy and free right now, with fair judgements and forward planning as well from their government.

Adorie is going to be a little busy with the whole 'retake one administer anywhere between one and three kingdoms' thing but even if she wasn't is the plan really 'decapitate this currently stable and happy and free polity and install our own foreign ruler who isn't going to have the same effectiveness?'
 
[X] Territorial Waters

I'm honestly surprised just how unpopular this option is. It neither risks our life, not does it make us complicit in causing wide scale chaos and death by killing an effective governor, nor does it deprive us of our future Armament. The terrible cost is that... the Elixir Springs will be less potent and disappear within ~60 years? How awful, there is no way Hunger could ever make up for that, be it through nation-wide application of blood magic or by infusing the Springs with some other magic source again.

Maybe I'm missing something about the option, but it seems to be the one with the least downsides to me. It mortgages Elixir's future for our present, but given the immense difference in potential, that seems like a fair trade to me, especially since we'll very likely be able to make up for it

My second choice is the Fish, but I'm reluctant to engage it as a Decimation target for multiple reasons. First, death risk. Maybe we'll get ADS in time, but I have no idea how much we have atm and our Arete generation has slowed down. Well, maybe WoDS would suffice if our Rank is superior to its own, but anyway, there is also another reason why I'm reluctant to kill it: I would much rather we acquired it as our Armament instead. Too greedy, maybe, and I have no doubt Apocrypha will complicate things, but since we had decided to get back to the Human Sphere ASAP, we would benefit from having an Armament of our own. It would help Letrizia's position immensely to bring back an Armament, would give Hunger a high initial political standing ('power flows from the cockpit of an Armament' is a common Empire meme), plus could explain some of Hunger's idiosyncrasies. And I have no doubt that our rival Cursebearer will acquire an Armament of his own, so I don't want Hunger to be disadvantaged in that sense. All in all, I would rather not kill it unless there is no other choice.
 
Enohthree said:
The people led by Stalks are explicitly noted as happy and free right now, with fair judgements and forward planning as well from their government.

Adorie is going to be a little busy with the whole 'retake one administer anywhere between one and three kingdoms' thing but even if she wasn't is the plan really 'decapitate this currently stable and happy and free polity and install our own foreign ruler who isn't going to have the same effectiveness?'
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Who says Adorie can't do better!? She is going to get further buffed by Tears and she will have the resource of Nilfel! The ruler isn't without flaws as the option clearly states!
 
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