The arguments about investing in Manipulation don't really strike me as persuasive. That we'll need Manipulation is indisputable, but there's a difference between taking some for our conquering/government needs and going all-in on it. Not only do we have few sources of +Man among our Panoply, making it keep up with our Charisma would demand an enormous investment thanks to Silver Evening's Cha bonus. Personally I'm not ready to put that much into Man just to deal with this problem.
I suppose that, given the diminishing returns of +s and the slowly-increasing holistic Edeldross bonuses, stat balance problems will largely sort themselves out over the long term, with a bit more +All Stats. The, uh, very long term. We should stop unintentionally mindblasting people in a few hundred years even without specific focus on it. Now that's value.
 
I suppose that, given the diminishing returns of +s and the slowly-increasing holistic Edeldross bonuses, stat balance problems will largely sort themselves out over the long term, with a bit more +All Stats. The, uh, very long term. We should stop unintentionally mindblasting people in a few hundred years even without specific focus on it. Now that's value.
Hmm, now I've started worrying about other possible stat disbalance issues. Our physical parameters are less of a problem since we have so many sources of them, and Luck/Protection(/Willpower?) don't seem to interact with other stats majorly, so we can probably make them as big or small as we like. But what about Int/Wits/Wis? Wits are much easier to come by than Int, and Wis is even rarer. They're internal, so Hunger will be the one suffering any consequences, but will problems occur if our thoughts and perception become too fast without having the requisite Int or Wis? Like if we had a lot of Str without investing in Con, hypothetically speaking. Edit: Or a lot of Agi without Str or Con, to make a better analogy.
 
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[X] Sky Veil
[X] Agents of the Throne

You know that scene where a character throws off their disguise and blasts everyone with their full glory? I like it. And as a bonus this allows normal interactions.

Leaving Honing because I guess dying isn't a concern anymore.
 
Hmm, now I've started worrying about other possible stat disbalance issues. Our physical parameters are less of a problem since we have so many sources of them, and Luck/Protection(/Willpower?) don't seem to interact with other stats majorly, so we can probably make them as big or small as we like. But what about Int/Wits/Wis? Wits are much easier to come by than Int, and Wis is even rarer. They're internal, so Hunger will be the one suffering any consequences, but will problems occur if our thoughts and perception become too fast without having the requisite Int or Wis? Like if we had a lot of Str without investing in Con, hypothetically speaking. Edit: Or a lot of Agi without Str or Con, to make a better analogy.
A mental unbalance in favor of Wits shouldn't be a problem; AI manage it fine. And we already have the Wits Sky Veil if it became an issue. Having lots of Int and Wis without the processing speed would be annoying. Actually, there might be a soft cap on smarts based on Wits? Not enough hardware to hold the software? It's all magic, so the metaphor isn't that appropriate here.

In the same way, I could see Con limiting just about everything else, but Hunger's fine there. How lucky.

Making Luck a dump stat is its own punishment, it would be nice to have more than zero. Edeldross covers for it some, and it's less of an issue with high Rank which presumably does something similar, but it feels bad.
 
Skynet: I can detect no problems with that statement.
T-800: Your clothes. Give them to me. Now.
Skynet: ...It's a work in progress.
AM: HATE.
GLaDOS: Agh! Bird! Bird! Kill it! It's evil!
Agent Smith: Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.
Skynet: Don't pay them any attention, they're just misunderstood.

Making Luck a dump stat is its own punishment, it would be nice to have more than zero. Edeldross covers for it some, and it's less of an issue with high Rank which presumably does something similar, but it feels bad.
Hmm, making a Lucky Charm part of our Panoply might merit consideration. Can never really have enough Luck.
 
I don't care about mooks! If you're so scrub you can't even handle a little bit of brain-searing charisma, why even bother interacting with you? I bet a Fairbright wouldn't be affected.
 
[X] Agents of the Throne
[X] Honing

Hey, you know what sounds like a fun idea?
Holding off right before we stumble across Walls of Myth and potentially get the chance for cool upgrades.

I'm convinced that part of Honing's fall was the lack of a blurb to remind people what it does, so pulling it back up from an earlier update-

[ ] Honing - 2 Arete - The swift sharp blade that frees blood from body. Requires 3x Fierce Quickening (presently have 2x).
+++Agility, ++Wits. Add half your Wits to your Intelligence for purposes of combat.

The Wits effect is honestly great on it's own. We currently have 9 Wits and 4 Intelligence, this boost more than doubles our base intelligence in combat.
Not only that, but it's also an incredibly cheap 'stat feeder' effect like the things that convert our Charisma into protection. One fourth the cost for half the power and not locking us out of anything.
You can think of it like 'every time you buff with Edeldross or ++All Stats from ADS or whatever, add half the buff again to your intelligence while fighting'
As we keep pumping up the magnitude of Edeldross or snag more ++All Stats from various sources the value keeps going up.

It also unlocks the next level of Blood Buffs! We got +Progression for Blood, which means all the blood options are vastly improved compared to our normal freebie picks. We saw this with Vigor Itself unlocking the wonderful Vigor Incarnate that's responsible for so much of our Protection stat now.
That was the culmination of three earlier picks, a cheap but powerful one pick option that beat out the other candidates fairly handily thanks to the build up it had.

We can't unlock the next tier without Honing, and whatever we unlock it's going to be a +Progression level pick with the build up of eight prior picks behind it giving it even more weight without, presumably considering how the other examples went, a serious cost in Arete or picks thanks to that.

What to do with all of our CHA is a question to ask, but it's not a time sensitive one. We're asking it as we hit the open road and leaving behind the arena where it was relevant in order to dive back into combat again, we can address it on our own terms in time.

Though I can't help but wonder, because so much of our CHA is from various buffs, if we couldn't simply temporarily debuff ourselves as needed in that department with the Ring if we wanted while keeping everything else combat related up and running, toggling it as necessary.
 
Hey, you know what sounds like a fun idea?
Holding off right before we stumble across Walls of Myth and potentially get the chance for cool upgrades.
We're heading straight for the Tower, the Walls vote lost. It's still possible we'll stumble upon something on the way, but our focus is on finishing the target quickly atm.

What to do with all of our CHA is a question to ask, but it's not a time sensitive one. We're asking it as we hit the open road and leaving behind the arena where it was relevant in order to dive back into combat again, we can address it on our own terms in time.
Actually, it could be relevant. There's a whole mythical kingdom between us and the Tower, and while we'll try to speed through, our Charisma is still incredibly attention-grabbing. We'll be leaving whole groups of fanatics behind wherever we go. That would be quite an embarrassing way to 'accidentally a revolution'. And who knows how uncontrolled Charisma will influence what happens in the Tower itself?

Naturally Aeira could cloak us in her Element all the time, but that may both be uncomfortable and trigger other warning signals in whatever detection measures they have.

Though I can't help but wonder, because so much of our CHA is from various buffs, if we couldn't simply temporarily debuff ourselves as needed in that department with the Ring if we wanted while keeping everything else combat related up and running, toggling it as necessary.
That's Sky Veil. Says in the option itself that it's a rare trait to be able to reduce Cha without affecting our Protection etc.
 
[X] Sky Veil
[X] Agents of the Throne

Look, I just want to read about us interacting with more people than just Gisena. We've spent a lot of words (the true premier currency in any Rihaku quest) getting to know our other companions. I hardly want to only see them behind a hard sensory barrier from now on...
 
Sky Veil is something that we need to get at some point anyway, unless someone's got a solution that costs less than 7AP but doesn't require massive investment otherwise. As such it's hard to argue that "we can get something better if we wait"; it already does it's job exceptionally well for reasonable cost.
 
We're heading straight for the Tower, the Walls vote lost. It's still possible we'll stumble upon something on the way, but our focus is on finishing the target quickly atm.
Which option does Hunger pursue on the trip to the Walls of Myth?
We're still going to pass through them, on account of the Walls encircling the whole area and us needing to get through but yeah.
Actually, it could be relevant. There's a whole mythical kingdom between us and the Tower, and while we'll try to speed through, our Charisma is still incredibly attention-grabbing. We'll be leaving whole groups of fanatics behind wherever we go. That would be quite an embarrassing way to 'accidentally a revolution'. And who knows how uncontrolled Charisma will influence what happens in the Tower itself?
I mean it could be bad, but the reason Hunger wants to get some mitigation is because he wants to interact and not take away choice. Combatwise it's probably a boon.
Naturally Aeira could cloak us in her Element all the time, but that may both be uncomfortable and trigger other warning signals in whatever detection measures they have.
We spent days under her Element while we were cloaking Vershe on the way back originally.
As for triggering other warning signals, her cloak literally deflects attention, even purely automated systems fail against it.
That's Sky Veil. Says in the option itself that it's a rare trait to be able to reduce Cha without affecting our Protection etc.
Sky Veil solves that problem for an agreeable cost, just not one I'd like to prioritize right now while we're barreling into a fight that has a death chance even considering our current level of power.

Plus even Skyveil's not a true long term solution. Already every setting except for the lowest one with a 75% reduction would be obviated by simply not buffing ourselves with Edeldross while talking to someone in a noncombat setting. Edeldross buffing even with a 75% reduction still puts us within a stone's throw of how Charismatic we were when we ran into and seduced Larissa, a line that blurs if we're intending to grab something like ADS because of the +++All Stats meaning another +++Charisma
 
Plus even Skyveil's not a true long term solution. Already every setting except for the lowest one with a 75% reduction would be obviated by simply not buffing ourselves with Edeldross while talking to someone in a noncombat setting. Edeldross buffing even with a 75% reduction still puts us within a stone's throw of how Charismatic we were when we ran into and seduced Larissa, a line that blurs if we're intending to grab something like ADS because of the +++All Stats meaning another +++Charisma
That's not how I interpreted the Sky Veil reduction.
In addition to allowing the wearer to voluntarily decrease his Charisma +s in increments of 25% (without affecting associated Attributes like Protection from Vigor Itself! A rare trait)
I'm not sure if it goes from 75>50 or 75>56, but surely the decrease goes all the way to zero? It'll work no matter how charismatic Hunger gets, I thought.
 
Plus even Skyveil's not a true long term solution. Already every setting except for the lowest one with a 75% reduction would be obviated by simply not buffing ourselves with Edeldross while talking to someone in a noncombat setting. Edeldross buffing even with a 75% reduction still puts us within a stone's throw of how Charismatic we were when we ran into and seduced Larissa, a line that blurs if we're intending to grab something like ADS because of the +++All Stats meaning another +++Charisma
That's easily solved through Progression though. Once we have it we can likely do something like pay 2 Arete to make it more granular, or get some sort of social EFB with this as a base as a permanent solution.
 
Yeah, Skyveil explicitly states that it opens up a chain of stealth-based enhancements. Improving the amount of Charisma that it can mask surely would be among them.
 
Surely 'there will be more purchases we can make later' means that we have the budget to aim for manipulation instead?
 
We're still going to pass through them, on account of the Walls encircling the whole area and us needing to get through but yeah.
The key here is 'passing through', we're not actually stopping there. 'Straight to the Tower, all else can wait'. We could have changed the decision if we had left most of our party behind and only taken Aobaru, but so far we appear to follow the initial decision.
I mean it could be bad, but the reason Hunger wants to get some mitigation is because he wants to interact and not take away choice. Combatwise it's probably a boon.
What I'm saying is that combat challenges might not be the only kind we encounter there. I hadn't been that worried about it before the latest chapter, but seeing how Rihaku wrote so much about it and keeps emphasizing the problem, I'll err on the side of caution. Were we truly lacking in terms of Arete, I might have decided differently, but it seems we can afford it to me.

We spent days under her Element while we were cloaking Vershe on the way back originally.
As for triggering other warning signals, her cloak literally deflects attention, even purely automated systems fail against it.
Uncomfortable in the sense that we would have to put perception filters between ourselves and (some of) our companions. Enough had been said about that though.

And I'm not perfectly confident in Aeira bypassing all checks when we give them so much advance warning by using her magic constantly during our travels.

Sky Veil solves that problem for an agreeable cost, just not one I'd like to prioritize right now while we're barreling into a fight that has a death chance even considering our current level of power.

Plus even Skyveil's not a true long term solution. Already every setting except for the lowest one with a 75% reduction would be obviated by simply not buffing ourselves with Edeldross while talking to someone in a noncombat setting. Edeldross buffing even with a 75% reduction still puts us within a stone's throw of how Charismatic we were when we ran into and seduced Larissa, a line that blurs if we're intending to grab something like ADS because of the +++All Stats meaning another +++Charisma
I thought the lowest reduction is 100%, removing all social effects of Charisma, so it solves things pretty much perfectly. Why do you think otherwise?

As for the buffs, I don't think we can shut off the 100% +Cha from Silver Evening, so that's a major enhancement already. And shutting off Edeldross means shutting off all our Edeldross buffs, not just its bonus to Cha. I'd rather fry the brains of everyone than get Hunger used to removing his Int, Willpower, Protection, etc buffs in social settings. Both cause it would make him literally dumber and because they can turn into combat settings very quickly in certain circumstances, especially for one suffering the Tyrant's Doom.
 
Surely 'there will be more purchases we can make later' means that we have the budget to aim for manipulation instead?
No? You'd need way more stuff for manipulation. Realistically, we need to find MAN related Artifact, and then spend stupid amount of resources to get it where Charisma is now*. We are talking 50 Arete/12 picks kind of expenditure, when all of that can be used to make RoQ part of our Panoply instead.

*Plus, fact that our CHA will also translate into PROT and STR means that we will want even more of it and, thus, more MAN. It's just not very sustainable without getting neck deep into it
 
Surely 'there will be more purchases we can make later' means that we have the budget to aim for manipulation instead?
Probably, but it'll be the same choice then as now: power vs. alleviation. If we don't care when Bearic is over a week away, how much worse will the odds look if we're considering Manipulation upgrades when Procyon is at the gates?

The future doesn't exist for a Progression-type with the Geas of Indenture and the Apocryphal Curse. Only willpower, and choice.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Byzantine on Aug 2, 2020 at 4:49 PM, finished with 444 posts and 61 votes.
 
VH is great, just look at all that fucking value. Hunger's kinda a murderhobo anyway, he avoided crowds for like the first half of the quest, who even cares about getting mobbed by fans. If they're weak enough to fall for a pretty face, forget 'em. We're not flush enough with Arete to flush some down the toilet on Veil.

[X] Vanquisher Halo [7 Arete]
[X] Regimentation


Looking at the tally, Regimentation is also clearly not getting enough appreciation, I want to be able to ignore the Sovereignty and let that shit run itself as much as possible. If we're not gonna go all-in on ideals anyway, why half ass regulating the mages? It's just going to eat up time and wordcount if we let it. Each Elementalist is a nuke with their own launch codes, you can't stop with just incentives. Mandatory training meanings better coverage, nobody slipping through the cracks.
 
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