- Location
- Omniverse #1345
FYI.
If you want walls switch off of change/crown. If you want Change/Crown switch off of walls. Please.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
FYI.
If you want walls switch off of change/crown. If you want Change/Crown switch off of walls. Please.
[X] Intervention Mk. I
[X] The Tower Itself
[X] Towards Stranglethorn
- With extra picks from The Tower Itself, by the time we reach the tower, we might already have Stranglethorn. Add in the bonus from I Am The Danger and it becomes a moderately low-risk start to the adventure.
- Very time-efficient. Could be even faster if we completely ignore the Sovereignty, but Intervention is worth a little delay - both for the flat +1 Arete and more Arete from additional sub-plot updates.
- Best for saving Arete and reaching OaF. Spends 0 Arete, gains 1 Arete, and most importantly evades dangerous Arete sinks - DA from Be the Change and magic from the Walls.
The idea is simple. Since resisting shiny picks looks to be impossible, evade the choices that might result in shinies. At least until we get OaF.
[X] The Tower Itself
[X] Towards Stranglethorn
- With extra picks from The Tower Itself, by the time we reach the tower, we might already have Stranglethorn. Add in the bonus from I Am The Danger and it becomes a moderately low-risk start to the adventure.
- Very time-efficient. Could be even faster if we completely ignore the Sovereignty, but Intervention is worth a little delay - both for the flat +1 Arete and more Arete from additional sub-plot updates.
- Best for saving Arete and reaching OaF. Spends 0 Arete, gains 1 Arete, and most importantly evades dangerous Arete sinks - DA from Be the Change and magic from the Walls.
The idea is simple. Since resisting shiny picks looks to be impossible, evade the choices that might result in shinies. At least until we get OaF.
An empire is made of a million-and-one shitty polities no one elsewhere cares about. I expect once we start conquering the Human Sphere, we're going to keep conquering it, throwing up puppet governments as we go. For momentum's sake if nothing else.
Right now our conquest is stymied by lack of both power and easy targets. This is the best time for Feat: Crown - though I'll concede arguments exist other things could be better for us than it right now.
DarkSideBard
Flying, without moving on
[X] Be the Change
[X] The Tower Itself
[X] Feat: Crown
Walls of Myth being too greedy in combination with Feat: Crown makes sense, I'm willing to let them go and keep Crown instead.
[X] The Tower Itself
[X] Feat: Crown
Walls of Myth being too greedy in combination with Feat: Crown makes sense, I'm willing to let them go and keep Crown instead.
- Location
- a place
If people are worried that tower is 'suicidal, and dear god do I hate misusing that word in the context of this quest for mental health reasons, i'll point out that we'd need only about 4 updates of regular arete generation to hit Once and Future which should be enough to molly-whop Ber and the Tower. That's assuming their's no omake storm on the way, which has historically happened every time a EFB was within reach. Why do I mention this? Because while Both Change+Tower and Intervention+Walls gives us some time to save Arete for stuff, Walls is liable to give us entirely new magic systems and artifacts to waste arete on right at the second stretch if not the finish line of getting Once and Future.
If you're part of savegang and are exhausted with people picking crown now, imagine how much harder it's going to be when have a bigger arete reserve and your not just arguing against a nebulous rank gang, but a entire system of magic or new artifacts, and bashing your head up against that mystery box. Hell, imagine if their both EFBs and neither have the raw power of OaF to defeat Ber, meaning if their picked we are not only back where we're started, we probably only have IC days to get OaF, and the whole time we could be dealing with new shiny types of advancements from whatever we just bought.
Change+Tower is much, much less likely to trigger that scenario. And if you think it's not plausible, remember that on the even of trinity,the only Elixer lost was do to the over a dozen ppl Microwave line voting and then switching her vote to Priest who went all in for Trinity, and even then it was incredibly close.
The picks plus The Tower will almost certainly be enough to net us Strangethorn as well, which is another huge boost in power
I originally voted to visit the walls because I thought we'd get MORE power there than by going straight to the tower. My thinking was that a land rich in power and magics and the like would offer greater rewards than a tower we know basically nothing about. But Rihaku has clarified this is a bad idea, and we can visit the wall later on, so...
[X] Be the Change
[X] Feat: Crown
[X] The Tower Itself
[X] Be the Change
[X] Feat: Crown
[X] The Tower Itself
- Location
- Canada
OaF is enough for Ber, but there's no evidence that it's enough to make the Tower safe. We were warned that depending on our decisions, this adventure might end up being as dangerous as the Temple and Tower is explicitly more dangerous than Walls. Don't underestimate the danger we've put ourselves in.
How is that an argument against Crown? Nothing short of SJUC will beat having 9.9 rather than 9.4 Blood Rank..
If you think that Tower requires any sort of overwhelming power Crown is clearly vastly superior choice.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Because you are completely discounting the different time frames involved?
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
I'd like to remind people that there are presumably, still Artifact Special Advancements available for getting 3 EFBS on an artifact. Forebear's Blade 3 Advancement EFB? Ring of Blood 3 Advancement EFB?
We will not be lacking for power if we do not get Trinity round 2. Once and Future puts us 1 EFB away from a 3 EFB Forebear's Blade Advancement given we already have Cut Through.
We will not be lacking for power if we do not get Trinity round 2. Once and Future puts us 1 EFB away from a 3 EFB Forebear's Blade Advancement given we already have Cut Through.
What does that have to do with anything? Moving from 9.3 to 9.9 Rank is, in no uncertain terms, great increase power than anything else we can possibly access. If your argument is that OaF can't solo the temple, then the Crown is the best choice.
- Location
- a place
On the other hand, OaF plus strangethorn represents a much, much, much larger increase in power then Crimson Flare plus the blood advancements we used to overtake the temple due to the nature of rank gain, and this is assuming thats even assuming that Tower over walls is the only choice needed to make it more dangerous then Temple, which is unlikely.
If it's enough to make beating the Tower safe, then their's unlikely to be anything that is enough to do, including simply mitigating risks via walls, due to the absurd power spike it would represent.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
3515 Word Reaction to Realms of Myth, written in the update cycle for same.
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So now I owe Tyrant_Rayne 1 vote marker and runeblue360 1 vote marker. How the turn tables. My wager was meant as a hedge: I originally thought the Tower was the correct path that would inevitably be defeated by the Fishing meme. But the meme has gotten Worf'd: We occasionally get a fishing option just to show readers how awesome the alternative must be. After all: Tower beat out Fishing! Just imagine what kind of bait the thread must've been offered! I was excited about the potential for new magic systems, and especially for the potential of new magic items. There are so many ways that a Tower with similar themes to the Evening Sky can be made into cool blurbs.
Alas, when [Most High] speaks with one voice, the Questers do not listen with even one ear. Having heard "Rank" the thread worked itself into paroxysms of joy about blood casting and 1v1-ing Armaments. Thus it was determined that we would travel for fully fourteen days, using the entirety of our remaining Decimator mitigation, so that we can reach a fabled store of magical lore and potential Panoply items and then buy Rank.
Great.
The Sovereignty has a much different challenge. After decades spent under an existential threat, their society has implemented certain policies that treat their Magic- using youth more like assets than citizens. The Mizuku interlude was from the point of view of a malcontent teenager, but the social observations that drove him to nihilism were likely grounded in fact. The military command of the Sovereignty certainly did have an incentive to drive Elementalists towards armed service. In real life, refusal or avoidance of the draft has historically drawn severe social censure. The combination of just these factors is enough to make me concerned about the future of the Sovereignty if we do not intervene, even setting aside Mizuku's broader political conclusions.
The Sovereignty is in a position where the military just proved to be unable to protect their citizens. In the scramble to re-organize the nation's leadership, one of two outcomes is all but guaranteed. First, the civilians could assert control over the military apparatus: impose monitoring, oversight, and regulation over an institution designed to address a no-longer immediate existential threat. Alternatively, the military could move into the power vacuum and take even more power. This would likely result in a more regimented control over the Elementalists' day to day lives, as the military scrambles to develop power enough to deliver a dramatic and public victory. The urge to score a victory and wipe away the memory of defeat might prompt an expansionist policy that brings the Sovereignty into conflict with surrounding polities.
It would be well down the line, but imagine the headache if the Sovereignty Ascendent declared war on the Temple Remnant. I certainly would not be happy with a vote that asked Hunger to split his attention away from conquering the Republic in favor of settling a schoolyard fight in the Voyaging Realm.
There's also a good chance that the "Elixir Sovereign" sub-plot would be cool as hell. The problems facing Aeira's family seem to be rooted in some kind of debt / corporate espionage shenanigans. Launching a Rank 6+ progression type curse bearer that has recently invested in massive boosts to Charisma into office politics is comedic overkill. It could be highly gratifying to simply cut through the obstacles.
Idk, questers' personal taste might vary about cloak and dagger plots, but I think that we would all enjoy a good smackdown applied to some corrupt politicians.
Before I get to work discussing the downsides, this is pretty much exactly what I was hoping to get out of Army Made. Hunger should be enjoying overwhelming popular support among pretty much every political faction in the Sovereignty. With the effects of Triumphal Gleam, the positive effects of killing the nation- ending monster will be memetically more appealing than the negative effects of property damage and / or loss of lives. Therefore Hunger is in a uniquely powerful position to demand broad reforms or expansive policy changes. Imagine giving a Progression Type Cursebearer the combined efforts of thousands or millions of hard working people. Endless resources for Gisena's artifice, research materials for Letrizia, a formal and legal solution for Aeira's family, maybe an opportunity to provide a good word for Aobaru's family members who want a job... there's a lot on offer here, even when restricting our view to the party as it currently stands.
But our view as questers doesn't have to be restricted. The potential breakthroughs from 50 years of surge casters working together... it is pretty exciting to think about! A full-scale industrial revolution powered by the wide diversity of Elements available would be a huge boon to both the quality of life and amount of military power enjoyed by the Sovereignty. Hunger has an enormous amount of time allotted to conquer the Human Realm. It is a good idea to plant seeds now that might be cultivated decades or centuries down the line. If nothing else, a beachhead in the Voyaging Realm will be useful if Huntress' Moon ever needs targets that can not be adequately produced by Pillars.
In addition to the potentially exponential power curve as the society grows and citizens work together to innovate on each new idea, this offers an immediate power base of considerable size. The enlisted elementalists are battle hardened and can be counted on to defend themselves when exploring the Voyaging Realm. There are many things that I can imagine doing with a set of strike teams incorporating both Human Technology (good enough to re-supply Versch) and Voyaging Realm casting. Right off the bat, it occurs to me that dispersing scout teams to look for mage- extraction methods might be a good way to start the search for a way to bring Aeira (and Aobaru) out of the Voyaging Realm. We can toss an Ennoblement or Exalted Spirit on the outriders to improve their search-radius when we come back from the Temple.
Now, as excited as I am, I have to admit that this is not an easy path. It's difficult enough to offer experience for a pick. Some of the challenges will involve dilemmas for the players: you can't have BOTH (1) total government access to confiscate any resource requested by Gisena, and (2) full civil rights for citizens plus the full productivity bonus of efficient capitalist production that relies on protection of individual property rights. Some of the challenges will involve dilemmas for Hunger: The most effective bureaucrats to Ennoble might also be the ones with some culpability in the sorry state of affairs under the old status quo. Some dilemmas might even hit Rihaku: this is a major change of pace from the personal narrative focus on Hunger that has drawn so much engagement. The civ-building quest population doesn't overlap perfectly with the personal- quest population that he's accumulated so there might be some problems hitting the right tone for AST's target demographic.
Regardless, this choice gets my full support.
The benefits of this option would normally be far too expensive to pursue immediately after we pay 12 Arete (!) for Crown. However, Rihaku suggested that we might be able to return to the Walls after our quest, assuming that we don't knock everything down. That means that there's an immediate benefit of giving us the chance to stock up on magic items if we see something worthy of an OMake Storm, but also an Option value. By giving the questers a few days to get hyped about the options available for pickup we might be able to build momentum for a system that redirects Hungers insane Charisma stat into something that Imperator will recognize as a proper Magic system.
The downside is fairly difficult to argue against, however. Extending the trip, especially if we're delayed leaving the Sovereignty by Be the Change, risks allowing Decimator to reactivate. Letrizia seemed to be familiar with the effects of unmitigated Decimation, so it isn't an immediate catastrophe if we spend a day or two unmitigated imo. With a timeline of about 10 days, plus 4-5 spent in reforming the Sovereignty, we'd be likely to only impose maybe 24-48 hours of proper Decimation.
The much larger concern is that Ber's attainment of his (new) level cap is scheduled for about 14 days. It would be interesting if the Ber plot and the Errantry plot got tangled up in the worst possible moment, like if he portaled into the throne room right as we were confronting the Tyrant. Or if he found us in the foundations of the Tower setting up demolition charges, and thought that he was in a very gimmicky boss-fight. Dealing with trying to kill Ber while he tries to disarm our explosives would be a headache and a half.
The real trouble with this option is that we don't have the full picture of what our victory condition will be. Is the Wall manned by potential allies? Or are we entering an area where everybody is hostile? Are the locals capable of threatening Hunger? How about Aobaru? The Wall sure sounds like it should be big enough to repel Verschlengorge (in his current state). Is there a way for us to bring him along?
There are too many unknowns for me to feel great about this option.
Stranglethorn is good, but if we unlock something great then I'll be kicking myself for at least the rest of the Arc.
Honing was a little bit less powerful than Vigor Itself, but I'm hopeful that we'll have a down-week someday so that the next level of blood upgrades gets unlocked. At this rate, they'll be revealed after we get Ruling Ring so maybe there'll be an extra +Progression effecting their blurbs...
The benefits are both obvious and dramatic, but it seems to me like the thread has closed the book on Stats, at least until we get bitchslapped by an opponent of lower rank that wildly outclasses us in physical capabilities. Until that day, it seems like a waste of time to even think about shilling for options like this one.
...all that I'll say is that we're currently using our own blood as the source of combat-relevant healing. If we got this upgrade, we'd be able to use our enemies' blood. Then I'd be able to post that scene from the Simpsons where Nelson is like "nobody makes me bleed my own blood."
i guess i had one more comment: lol echo spam go brrrrr (brrr) (brr)
The thread likes Rank, and was largely unmoved by Mister The Rihaku's first attempt at devil's advocacy. This option almost entirely defrays my trepidation at the very ominous tagline at the end of Be The Change: "How hard could it be?"
People have argued that we should buy this option by saying "set aside the benefits and think about the character beat." There's some juicy ideas there that we can get to in a couple minutes. Other people have argued that we should buy this option by saying "it makes Once and Future even more powerful." This also seems true, and I'll touch on that idea in just one minute. There have even been arguments about how expensive this option is, which will be discussed probably in three minutes. (Author's note: "minute" here is a word which means "a count of paragraphs or clusters of paragraphs between the conclusion of this paragraph and the start of a new one." ((Less pretentious note: I will, eventually, get to each of these topics, in turn.)))
Before we get to any of those arguments, I want to dive into the timing of the feat. It is a reward for doing well at reforming the Sovereignty. By definition we will finish reforming the Sovereignty before we leave. Therefore we'll have the additional rank already in-hand when we take our detour to the Wall! Having a weightier metaphysical and narrative presence when we go delving for L O R E makes it much more likely that we will discover something useful, assuming that something useful exists. Higher Rank makes us more likely to uncover a magic item that is worth an Omake storm, or at least a second visit to the Wall after we're done with the Tower. What I'm saying is that improving our Rank might also serve to improve the payouts for the rest of our quest! This is a Rank gain at the outset of an adventure, rather than at the close. The difficulty of the task is already set, so it seems like Crown would have an outsize effect on the outcome even if it weren't a fuckhuge increase in Rank on its own.
The argument about making Once and Future more powerful is highly compelling to me. The Devil's advocate pointed out that OaF gives external rank, which does not increase the difficulty of future gains. But there are two paths here: Crown -> OaF, or OaF -> (eventual) Crown. Eventual Crown will offer a smaller absolute Rank gain and be still more expensive, because of the hypergeometric effects of Rank. Crown into OaF front loads lots of Rank boosts and makes it safer for us to be wandering around a fortification with such obvious magus involvement.
The character beat is delicious, of course. There's an ongoing discussion happening both in- and out-of universe about what kind of character Hunger is going to display now that he's bearing both Tyrant and Decimator. He isn't a villain, exactly, but he certainly seems to have an uphill climb if he wants to be a hero. This is a neat opportunity where we get a bigger reward if we make the Moral choice. I don't want to let that slip through our fingers.
The option is highly expensive. It taps out our Arete budget (though not at the cost of entering Arete Debt). With our detour, it puts us at a very empty wallet when first getting access to the various magic items and magic systems at the Wall. All of that is depressing, but I'm banking on the opportunity to make a second trip. Either by building hype in the meantime, or by outright buying votes at the Marker clearinghouse, I'm optimistic about the chances at an eventual Magic pickup here.Hope I'm not making a big mistake
The last noteworthy thing to mention in this analysis is the combination of Be the Change + Detour: it's risky. I'll admit that. But you guys didn't want to vote for the Fishing Contest where the Decimator mitigation would be complete well before Ber arrived. We plan from the place we're at, rather than from where we wanted to be. The optimal strategy grabs a huge amount of Rank with Crown + Change and takes an information-gathering detour to the Walls.
We can deal with the consequences of ignoring the Fishing Contest as they arise. (Put this on my tombstone if Hunger dies in the temple, I guess.)
[X] The Walls of Myth
[X] Be the Change
[X] Feat: Crown
This post is brought to you by the AST1 Municipal Gaming Commission, the Committee for Prudent investing, a joint venture between Ikea's Geas Guild and the Pendantry Recidivism Reduction initiative, and by Lurkers Like You.
Before we begin your regularly scheduled reaction, the AST1 Municipal Gaming Commission would like to remind both residents and visitors that wagers are considered legal tender and must be treated and accepted as legal tender. Weaseling out of debt is every voter's Author- given right while within the borders of AST1. However, Bad Faith handling of legal transactions may draw the attention of the [Most High] and call down righteous fury upon all of us.
Oof. The vote closed well before I expected it to. I had a devious plan to call in 2 markers to guarantee that I ended the update with the same number as when we started. But then the vote closed. "Surely there will be a 30 minute warning, as has been the case in previous votes," I thought to myself while putting together a pull up bar to hang in my doorway. But then the vote closed. "The value of vote tokens goes up as we get closer to the end of the night, because it gives the opposition less time to arrange or purchase counter-defections," I told my partner while carefully applying thick white clown makeup. But then the vote closed. "My side has a decisive lead in fan-work because of Talace dropping a bunch of pictures and because I dredged up old survey responses to brow beat Projectile out of voting for the suicidal option," I said into my audio diary. But then Projectile revealed their true nature as a Bet-rayosaur and the vote closed.
So now I owe Tyrant_Rayne 1 vote marker and runeblue360 1 vote marker. How the turn tables. My wager was meant as a hedge: I originally thought the Tower was the correct path that would inevitably be defeated by the Fishing meme. But the meme has gotten Worf'd: We occasionally get a fishing option just to show readers how awesome the alternative must be. After all: Tower beat out Fishing! Just imagine what kind of bait the thread must've been offered! I was excited about the potential for new magic systems, and especially for the potential of new magic items. There are so many ways that a Tower with similar themes to the Evening Sky can be made into cool blurbs.
Alas, when [Most High] speaks with one voice, the Questers do not listen with even one ear. Having heard "Rank" the thread worked itself into paroxysms of joy about blood casting and 1v1-ing Armaments. Thus it was determined that we would travel for fully fourteen days, using the entirety of our remaining Decimator mitigation, so that we can reach a fabled store of magical lore and potential Panoply items and then buy Rank.
Great.
This is even more callous than the thread's approach to the Temple. With the Temple, we used Ennoblement to modify the abilities of the remaining defenders, and directed our mind crushed puppet ruler to seek prosperity for the surviving Temple Remnant. By giving such an instruction to Sten, the highest Ranked member of the society, we left them with the closest thing to good governance as was feasible at the time. There were drawbacks of our haste, of course: Larissa was just the worst and her influence wasn't excised. But the underlying moral poison at the heart of their society was removed. Lingering rot or corruption can be handled without completely remodeling the nature of their society. A bit of scaffolding was all that Sten really required to rebuild their nation, given the resources available.
The Sovereignty has a much different challenge. After decades spent under an existential threat, their society has implemented certain policies that treat their Magic- using youth more like assets than citizens. The Mizuku interlude was from the point of view of a malcontent teenager, but the social observations that drove him to nihilism were likely grounded in fact. The military command of the Sovereignty certainly did have an incentive to drive Elementalists towards armed service. In real life, refusal or avoidance of the draft has historically drawn severe social censure. The combination of just these factors is enough to make me concerned about the future of the Sovereignty if we do not intervene, even setting aside Mizuku's broader political conclusions.
The Sovereignty is in a position where the military just proved to be unable to protect their citizens. In the scramble to re-organize the nation's leadership, one of two outcomes is all but guaranteed. First, the civilians could assert control over the military apparatus: impose monitoring, oversight, and regulation over an institution designed to address a no-longer immediate existential threat. Alternatively, the military could move into the power vacuum and take even more power. This would likely result in a more regimented control over the Elementalists' day to day lives, as the military scrambles to develop power enough to deliver a dramatic and public victory. The urge to score a victory and wipe away the memory of defeat might prompt an expansionist policy that brings the Sovereignty into conflict with surrounding polities.
It would be well down the line, but imagine the headache if the Sovereignty Ascendent declared war on the Temple Remnant. I certainly would not be happy with a vote that asked Hunger to split his attention away from conquering the Republic in favor of settling a schoolyard fight in the Voyaging Realm.
The crunch here is fairly straightforward. 1 Arete is about 5% of the cost of Once and Future, or 1/3 of an average update's generation. Putting Aeira's family in a position of power would lessen her need to work as a mercenary, but would also wildly increase the resources that she could offer her good friend Letrizia. Since we have not been terribly proactive about letting our Party members actually do things, trading Combat Aeira in exchange for Royalty Nouveau Aeira is probably an excellent transaction. The meta-consideration of Update frequency per day is trumped by a meta-meta consideration higher along the infinite singularity husk; If you don't care that much about the Sovereignty, this option will conserve the most important resource of the quest: wordcount. It would wrap up fairly quickly and let Rihaku move on to writing things that you find more interesting.
There's also a good chance that the "Elixir Sovereign" sub-plot would be cool as hell. The problems facing Aeira's family seem to be rooted in some kind of debt / corporate espionage shenanigans. Launching a Rank 6+ progression type curse bearer that has recently invested in massive boosts to Charisma into office politics is comedic overkill. It could be highly gratifying to simply cut through the obstacles.
Idk, questers' personal taste might vary about cloak and dagger plots, but I think that we would all enjoy a good smackdown applied to some corrupt politicians.
Hoo boy. This is a very exciting option, and it isn't getting shit on the way Army Made, so I'm of course looking for the "catch."
Before I get to work discussing the downsides, this is pretty much exactly what I was hoping to get out of Army Made. Hunger should be enjoying overwhelming popular support among pretty much every political faction in the Sovereignty. With the effects of Triumphal Gleam, the positive effects of killing the nation- ending monster will be memetically more appealing than the negative effects of property damage and / or loss of lives. Therefore Hunger is in a uniquely powerful position to demand broad reforms or expansive policy changes. Imagine giving a Progression Type Cursebearer the combined efforts of thousands or millions of hard working people. Endless resources for Gisena's artifice, research materials for Letrizia, a formal and legal solution for Aeira's family, maybe an opportunity to provide a good word for Aobaru's family members who want a job... there's a lot on offer here, even when restricting our view to the party as it currently stands.
But our view as questers doesn't have to be restricted. The potential breakthroughs from 50 years of surge casters working together... it is pretty exciting to think about! A full-scale industrial revolution powered by the wide diversity of Elements available would be a huge boon to both the quality of life and amount of military power enjoyed by the Sovereignty. Hunger has an enormous amount of time allotted to conquer the Human Realm. It is a good idea to plant seeds now that might be cultivated decades or centuries down the line. If nothing else, a beachhead in the Voyaging Realm will be useful if Huntress' Moon ever needs targets that can not be adequately produced by Pillars.
In addition to the potentially exponential power curve as the society grows and citizens work together to innovate on each new idea, this offers an immediate power base of considerable size. The enlisted elementalists are battle hardened and can be counted on to defend themselves when exploring the Voyaging Realm. There are many things that I can imagine doing with a set of strike teams incorporating both Human Technology (good enough to re-supply Versch) and Voyaging Realm casting. Right off the bat, it occurs to me that dispersing scout teams to look for mage- extraction methods might be a good way to start the search for a way to bring Aeira (and Aobaru) out of the Voyaging Realm. We can toss an Ennoblement or Exalted Spirit on the outriders to improve their search-radius when we come back from the Temple.
Now, as excited as I am, I have to admit that this is not an easy path. It's difficult enough to offer experience for a pick. Some of the challenges will involve dilemmas for the players: you can't have BOTH (1) total government access to confiscate any resource requested by Gisena, and (2) full civil rights for citizens plus the full productivity bonus of efficient capitalist production that relies on protection of individual property rights. Some of the challenges will involve dilemmas for Hunger: The most effective bureaucrats to Ennoble might also be the ones with some culpability in the sorry state of affairs under the old status quo. Some dilemmas might even hit Rihaku: this is a major change of pace from the personal narrative focus on Hunger that has drawn so much engagement. The civ-building quest population doesn't overlap perfectly with the personal- quest population that he's accumulated so there might be some problems hitting the right tone for AST's target demographic.
Regardless, this choice gets my full support.
"Cloud-piercing battlements" strikes me as a hard-counter to the protection offered by our Evening Sky mantle. The strength of this option is in the quality of its blurb. Dangling the potential for D E E P L O R E is a great way to get an early vote-lead. Hunger & co have already tunneled through one set of walls; the Temple had some kind of spatial nonsense going on when Hunger cut through into the Ritual Grounds. With Gisena on hand, I am cautiously optimistic that we can repeat that feat. However, what would be even more exciting would be some kind of resonance between Versch and the (foremost) protection systems imbued into the Wall.
The benefits of this option would normally be far too expensive to pursue immediately after we pay 12 Arete (!) for Crown. However, Rihaku suggested that we might be able to return to the Walls after our quest, assuming that we don't knock everything down. That means that there's an immediate benefit of giving us the chance to stock up on magic items if we see something worthy of an OMake Storm, but also an Option value. By giving the questers a few days to get hyped about the options available for pickup we might be able to build momentum for a system that redirects Hungers insane Charisma stat into something that Imperator will recognize as a proper Magic system.
The downside is fairly difficult to argue against, however. Extending the trip, especially if we're delayed leaving the Sovereignty by Be the Change, risks allowing Decimator to reactivate. Letrizia seemed to be familiar with the effects of unmitigated Decimation, so it isn't an immediate catastrophe if we spend a day or two unmitigated imo. With a timeline of about 10 days, plus 4-5 spent in reforming the Sovereignty, we'd be likely to only impose maybe 24-48 hours of proper Decimation.
The much larger concern is that Ber's attainment of his (new) level cap is scheduled for about 14 days. It would be interesting if the Ber plot and the Errantry plot got tangled up in the worst possible moment, like if he portaled into the throne room right as we were confronting the Tyrant. Or if he found us in the foundations of the Tower setting up demolition charges, and thought that he was in a very gimmicky boss-fight. Dealing with trying to kill Ber while he tries to disarm our explosives would be a headache and a half.
I like the benefit of I am The Danger, but it seems like it isn't enough to compensate for the riskier nature of a headlong charge into the unknown. Skipping the Wall fails to give Gisena a heads up about the Opalescence connection: We should expect Nullity to be mostly ineffective in the demolition task, in my estimation. During the walk back from the Wall, Gisena can focus on tinkering up a demolition charge that doesn't rely on the power of Nullity. Alternatively, an amplifier might be a good strategy...
The real trouble with this option is that we don't have the full picture of what our victory condition will be. Is the Wall manned by potential allies? Or are we entering an area where everybody is hostile? Are the locals capable of threatening Hunger? How about Aobaru? The Wall sure sounds like it should be big enough to repel Verschlengorge (in his current state). Is there a way for us to bring him along?
There are too many unknowns for me to feel great about this option.
I posted this segment earlier, so I'll paraphrase (despite the reduction in Arete / OMake power from putting the word count in an earlier post). Be the Change unlocks a Defining Advancement, so it is a mistake to buy Stranglethorn before we've at least seen what the alternative would be.
Stranglethorn is good, but if we unlock something great then I'll be kicking myself for at least the rest of the Arc.
This would be a wise non-Stranglethorn pick if I thought it had any hope at all of getting traction. Unfortunately the Honing upgrade is going the way of Pearlescence. Combat intelligence is probably the most important stat boost that we can have going in to the fight with Ber. Hunger needs to quickly evaluate how Ber's powers and abilities have changed since the previous encounter. Remember that he brought along a party to fight Verschlengorge the first time. One of them shot Gisena with a crossbow. We are likely going to be forced to let the Teenagers fight alongside us; being able to quickly identify the biggest threats and direct our allies to good matchups will help keep everybody alive.
Honing was a little bit less powerful than Vigor Itself, but I'm hopeful that we'll have a down-week someday so that the next level of blood upgrades gets unlocked. At this rate, they'll be revealed after we get Ruling Ring so maybe there'll be an extra +Progression effecting their blurbs...
This makes me sad about Threefold again.
The benefits are both obvious and dramatic, but it seems to me like the thread has closed the book on Stats, at least until we get bitchslapped by an opponent of lower rank that wildly outclasses us in physical capabilities. Until that day, it seems like a waste of time to even think about shilling for options like this one.
...all that I'll say is that we're currently using our own blood as the source of combat-relevant healing. If we got this upgrade, we'd be able to use our enemies' blood. Then I'd be able to post that scene from the Simpsons where Nelson is like "nobody makes me bleed my own blood."
i guess i had one more comment: lol echo spam go brrrrr (brrr) (brr)
Arete miner goes brrrr.
The thread likes Rank, and was largely unmoved by Mister The Rihaku's first attempt at devil's advocacy. This option almost entirely defrays my trepidation at the very ominous tagline at the end of Be The Change: "How hard could it be?"
People have argued that we should buy this option by saying "set aside the benefits and think about the character beat." There's some juicy ideas there that we can get to in a couple minutes. Other people have argued that we should buy this option by saying "it makes Once and Future even more powerful." This also seems true, and I'll touch on that idea in just one minute. There have even been arguments about how expensive this option is, which will be discussed probably in three minutes. (Author's note: "minute" here is a word which means "a count of paragraphs or clusters of paragraphs between the conclusion of this paragraph and the start of a new one." ((Less pretentious note: I will, eventually, get to each of these topics, in turn.)))
Before we get to any of those arguments, I want to dive into the timing of the feat. It is a reward for doing well at reforming the Sovereignty. By definition we will finish reforming the Sovereignty before we leave. Therefore we'll have the additional rank already in-hand when we take our detour to the Wall! Having a weightier metaphysical and narrative presence when we go delving for L O R E makes it much more likely that we will discover something useful, assuming that something useful exists. Higher Rank makes us more likely to uncover a magic item that is worth an Omake storm, or at least a second visit to the Wall after we're done with the Tower. What I'm saying is that improving our Rank might also serve to improve the payouts for the rest of our quest! This is a Rank gain at the outset of an adventure, rather than at the close. The difficulty of the task is already set, so it seems like Crown would have an outsize effect on the outcome even if it weren't a fuckhuge increase in Rank on its own.
The argument about making Once and Future more powerful is highly compelling to me. The Devil's advocate pointed out that OaF gives external rank, which does not increase the difficulty of future gains. But there are two paths here: Crown -> OaF, or OaF -> (eventual) Crown. Eventual Crown will offer a smaller absolute Rank gain and be still more expensive, because of the hypergeometric effects of Rank. Crown into OaF front loads lots of Rank boosts and makes it safer for us to be wandering around a fortification with such obvious magus involvement.
The character beat is delicious, of course. There's an ongoing discussion happening both in- and out-of universe about what kind of character Hunger is going to display now that he's bearing both Tyrant and Decimator. He isn't a villain, exactly, but he certainly seems to have an uphill climb if he wants to be a hero. This is a neat opportunity where we get a bigger reward if we make the Moral choice. I don't want to let that slip through our fingers.
The option is highly expensive. It taps out our Arete budget (though not at the cost of entering Arete Debt). With our detour, it puts us at a very empty wallet when first getting access to the various magic items and magic systems at the Wall. All of that is depressing, but I'm banking on the opportunity to make a second trip. Either by building hype in the meantime, or by outright buying votes at the Marker clearinghouse, I'm optimistic about the chances at an eventual Magic pickup here.
The last noteworthy thing to mention in this analysis is the combination of Be the Change + Detour: it's risky. I'll admit that. But you guys didn't want to vote for the Fishing Contest where the Decimator mitigation would be complete well before Ber arrived. We plan from the place we're at, rather than from where we wanted to be. The optimal strategy grabs a huge amount of Rank with Crown + Change and takes an information-gathering detour to the Walls.
We can deal with the consequences of ignoring the Fishing Contest as they arise. (Put this on my tombstone if Hunger dies in the temple, I guess.)
[X] The Walls of Myth
[X] Be the Change
[X] Feat: Crown
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
Crown puts us down to 0 Arete. Can we make 23 Arete during the government reform time period? I don't think we can. If we make 4 Arete per update (and that's very optimistic), we'd need 6 updates of government reform to get OaF. At the more pessimistic 3 Arete per update we'd need 7+ updates. I very much doubt it'll take that long.
OTOH, if we go for Intervention + Walls, we'll have 13 more Arete, and only need to make 10 to get OaF. With one update for Intervention, one for travelling, and one at the Walls, we're there. We won't even have the chance to buy cool magic stuff with Intervention + Walls before we're at enough Arete for OaF, and at that point do you really think Mage Gang can talk people into not taking OaF?
Fearmongering that going to the Walls will result in Arete being spent on non-OaF stuff is stupid. We'll be at OaF by the time we get our first vote of new cool stuff.
Furthermore, contrary to popular belief the thread is not in fact suicidal. If buying a new thing will result in worse odds against Ber, we just won't take it. There's no need to fear Arete being wasted.
Unless you go crown, then you very much do need to worry about Arete being wasted. Because Crown puts us a heck of a long way from OaF. If you want guaranteed OaF before Ber, crown is needlessly risky, while Intervention + Walls will result in new cool stuff to spend Arete on, yes, but those new shinies will not arrive until we actually have enough Arete for OaF.
OTOH, if we go for Intervention + Walls, we'll have 13 more Arete, and only need to make 10 to get OaF. With one update for Intervention, one for travelling, and one at the Walls, we're there. We won't even have the chance to buy cool magic stuff with Intervention + Walls before we're at enough Arete for OaF, and at that point do you really think Mage Gang can talk people into not taking OaF?
Fearmongering that going to the Walls will result in Arete being spent on non-OaF stuff is stupid. We'll be at OaF by the time we get our first vote of new cool stuff.
Furthermore, contrary to popular belief the thread is not in fact suicidal. If buying a new thing will result in worse odds against Ber, we just won't take it. There's no need to fear Arete being wasted.
Unless you go crown, then you very much do need to worry about Arete being wasted. Because Crown puts us a heck of a long way from OaF. If you want guaranteed OaF before Ber, crown is needlessly risky, while Intervention + Walls will result in new cool stuff to spend Arete on, yes, but those new shinies will not arrive until we actually have enough Arete for OaF.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Because you are counting crown + OAF rather than just crown, and the time difference will be enough we could easily die in the interim.
We can take more than 4 days setting up Human Sphere puppet govt 1 though, and we will keep in contact with it because it will serve as part of our power and resource base for the rest of our conquests which an isolated Voyaging Realm state can't do.
- Location
- Earth
[X] Be the Change
[X] The Tower Itself
[X] Feat: Crown
Tactical switch, not confident we can overcome the Change/Crown lead, so hoping to at least optimize the most popular options/Tower can catch up instead, since Walls+Change/Crown delays us the most
sigh, that aside, I thought Hunger didn't want this?
[X] The Tower Itself
[X] Feat: Crown
Tactical switch, not confident we can overcome the Change/Crown lead, so hoping to at least optimize the most popular options/Tower can catch up instead, since Walls+Change/Crown delays us the most
sigh, that aside, I thought Hunger didn't want this?
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- Location
- Pindorama
Well, he is a known Tsundere. He might have expressed distaste for it once, but there's a whole paragraph dedicated for Change while the other options only get a single line each...
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- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Crown only has a very minor lead.
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
Right then. Let's talk about why Crown is a terrible idea. Let's start with some Word of QM:
To be safe, we should only assume we can get 3 Arete per update. It's possible to generate more then that, but such should not be relied on.
Now, let's say we go Be the Change + Crown + The Tower Itself.
We spend all our Arete. Be the Change takes 4-5 days, likely being 4-5 updates as well. That gets us 15 Arete. We have another update of travelling, that puts us at 18.
Guess what, we're now at the tower with no Once and Future. Furthermore, Ber is coming in 3 days, and we may need to spend Arete just to reduce the death chance of the tower, which means... no OaF for facing Ber. Or, or we could not buy anything to save for OaF, except that probably results in death chances for the Tower activities.
Now, what about if we go Intervention + Walls of Myth?
We have 13 Arete, spend one update on Intervention, and another on travelling. By the end of the first update at Walls of Myth, we're at 22 Arete. Guess what we can get?
Now, one final note: Rihaku's said that OaF is enough to stomp Ber, but that Crown definitely isn't.
Conclusion: Intervention + Walls of Myth is the safe route. It guarantees we have enough Arete for OaF before we're even finished with Walls of Myth, since Walls of Myth will likely take multiple updates. OaF is enough to be safe against Ber, and likely vastly reduces the difficulty of the Tower as well. Crown is, without any doubt, riskier, because it needs above average Arete generation to get OaF before reaching the Tower.
As such, the Not Dying Gang choice should be Intervention + Walls of Myth. That course of action guarantees OaF, which guarantees survival. On the other hand, Crown introduces uncertainties. Yes, Crown is arguably stronger if it works out, but we do not know for certain it works out. We do know for certain that Intervention + Walls works, and that it does enough to provide safety.
Why take a gamble for more power, when we have a course of action that makes our survival completely certain?
To be safe, we should only assume we can get 3 Arete per update. It's possible to generate more then that, but such should not be relied on.
Now, let's say we go Be the Change + Crown + The Tower Itself.
We spend all our Arete. Be the Change takes 4-5 days, likely being 4-5 updates as well. That gets us 15 Arete. We have another update of travelling, that puts us at 18.
Guess what, we're now at the tower with no Once and Future. Furthermore, Ber is coming in 3 days, and we may need to spend Arete just to reduce the death chance of the tower, which means... no OaF for facing Ber. Or, or we could not buy anything to save for OaF, except that probably results in death chances for the Tower activities.
Now, what about if we go Intervention + Walls of Myth?
We have 13 Arete, spend one update on Intervention, and another on travelling. By the end of the first update at Walls of Myth, we're at 22 Arete. Guess what we can get?
Now, one final note: Rihaku's said that OaF is enough to stomp Ber, but that Crown definitely isn't.
Conclusion: Intervention + Walls of Myth is the safe route. It guarantees we have enough Arete for OaF before we're even finished with Walls of Myth, since Walls of Myth will likely take multiple updates. OaF is enough to be safe against Ber, and likely vastly reduces the difficulty of the Tower as well. Crown is, without any doubt, riskier, because it needs above average Arete generation to get OaF before reaching the Tower.
As such, the Not Dying Gang choice should be Intervention + Walls of Myth. That course of action guarantees OaF, which guarantees survival. On the other hand, Crown introduces uncertainties. Yes, Crown is arguably stronger if it works out, but we do not know for certain it works out. We do know for certain that Intervention + Walls works, and that it does enough to provide safety.
Why take a gamble for more power, when we have a course of action that makes our survival completely certain?
