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A Simple Transaction I

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Hm... since both votes seem contentious, let's do it this way. It seems the primary axis of disagreement is SAVE vs Non-SAVE. I've reviewed the fanworks and it looks like Frontal Assault has a considerable omake power lead, so we'll close the vote for [X] Frontal Assault.

You may now choose how to spend your Arete:

[ ] SPEND - You may choose either:

[ ] Outer Sky
[ ] Tenfold Echo

[ ] SAVE - You may choose either:

[ ] Titan-Felling
[ ] Hungry Vim

The SPEND/SAVE vote will control the subvotes, so whichever of those two has greater vote + argument power will win, then the subvote will decide what you buy. You're currently at 12.9 Arete. Let's try to get this wrapped up tonight!
 
Oh hey, the only option I was less enthusiastic about is gone. And if we're starting fresh, maybe STATS can get some momentum!

[X] SPEND
[X] Tenfold Echo
 
[X] SAVE
[X] Hungry Vim

Ah, back on my bullshit. I still think Combat Wis + a little Agi as a treat is worth dropping a smidgeon of arete. Think about the fact that Titan-Felling has to be specifically well-suited to this situation AND has a potential arete refund in order to balance it against Hungry Vim. I think most people are really underselling how good it is. It might even be a greater Arete save than Titan-Felling in the long run, if Combat Wis allows us to avoid spending Arete for more difficult combat maneuvers.

Though not taking a 7 cost is riskier when we've committed to frontal assault.

Thanks for moving decisively to reorganize the vote! I think this will really help.
 
Zampano said:
I'm half conscious, but i have a math request: if we have Outer Sky + Silver of Evening, how many 0-Arete picks worth of echoes must we take in order to match the immediate might and AGI improvements of Tenfold Echo?
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Ignoring the multiplicative nature of Pluses for the moment(Apparently each plus is 1.1 times the actual value of a stat according to this word of Rihaku from way back(A Simple Transaction I Original), because I may try to do another analysis where I take that into account if I can muster up the motivation/time

Silver Of Evening Doubles the value of future Agi and Charisma Pluses and doubles the value of basic/advanced edeldross enhancement.

I'll assume our conditions are still in effect:

Strength(Basic Edeldross Enhancement): 1.7(Outer Sky)+.6(Basic Edeldross)-.05(Punctured Soul) = 2.25
Constitution(Basic Edeldross Enhancement): 1.7(Outer Sky)+.6(Basic Edeldross)-.1(Liver Injury)-.05(Punctured Soul) = 2.15
Agility(Basic Edeldross Enhancement): 2(Silver of Evening)+.6(Basic Edeldross)-.05(Punctured Soul) = 2.55

Total Value of a Tenfold Echo in stats(These stats also may apply to our ghost self)

Strength(Basic Edeldross Enhancement): 1.5(Inherit the World)+.3(Basic Edeldross)-.05(Punctured Soul) = 1.75*10 = 17.5
Constitution(Basic Edeldross Enhancement): 1.5(Inherit the World)+.3(Basic Edeldross)-.1(Liver Injury)-.05(Punctured Soul) = 1.65*10 = 16.5
Agility(Basic Edeldross Enhancement): 1.3(Basic Edeldross)-.05(Punctured Soul) = 1.25*10 = 12.5

Total Value of a Tenfold Echo in Stats: 17.5+16.5+12.5 = 46.5 Total Pluses accounting for condition penalties, 18+18+13 = 49 Total Pluses After conditions removed.

To compete with the value of a condition debuffed Tenfold Echo with Outer Sky+Silver of Evening using Echoes of the Forebear(Assuming we're still condition debuffed), you'd need 7 Echoes

2.25*6+2.15*6+2.55*6 = 41.7 Total Pluses(13.5 Strength, 12.9 Constitution, 15.3 Agi)

2.25*7+2.15*7+2.55*7 = 48.65 Total Pluses(15.75 Strength, 15.05 Constitution, 17.85 Agi)
 
I'm voting with @Talace anyway, but I just want to say that of the two Save options I definitely prefer Vim! Combat Wisdom, where else we will get that? This is a clean slate, don't just try to blindly carry the momentum Felling had! Vim is much better in general, really. Thanks to this clean slate, this is the best opportunity to build support for it!
 
I do like Hungry Vim, enough to give up on STATS, perhaps. Hm. ++Combat Wis is just kinda exciting combined with the potential Wis>1/2 Combat Int conversion of Honing. Good for Treachery!

[X] SAVE
[X] Hungry Vim
 
Conjured Blade said:
Ignoring the multiplicative nature of Pluses for the moment(Apparently each plus is 1.1 times the actual value of a stat according to this word of Rihaku from way back(A Simple Transaction I Original), because I may try to do another analysis where I take that into account if I can muster up the motivation/time

Silver Of Evening Doubles the value of future Agi and Charisma Pluses and doubles the value of basic/advanced edeldross enhancement.

I'll assume our conditions are still in effect:

Strength(Basic Edeldross Enhancement): 1.7(Outer Sky)+.6(Basic Edeldross)-.05(Punctured Soul) = 2.25
Constitution(Basic Edeldross Enhancement): 1.7(Outer Sky)+.6(Basic Edeldross)-.1(Liver Injury)-.05(Punctured Soul) = 2.15
Agility(Basic Edeldross Enhancement): 2(Silver of Evening)+.6(Basic Edeldross)-.05(Punctured Soul) = 2.55

Total Value of a Tenfold Echo in stats(These stats also may apply to our ghost self)

Strength(Basic Edeldross Enhancement): 1.5(Inherit the World)+.3(Basic Edeldross)-.05(Punctured Soul) = 1.75*10 = 17.5
Constitution(Basic Edeldross Enhancement): 1.5(Inherit the World)+.3(Basic Edeldross)-.1(Liver Injury)-.05(Punctured Soul) = 1.65*10 = 16.5
Agility(Basic Edeldross Enhancement): 1.3(Basic Edeldross)-.05(Punctured Soul) = 1.25*10 = 12.5

Total Value of a Tenfold Echo in Stats: 17.5+16.5+12.5 = 46.5 Total Pluses accounting for condition penalties, 18+18+13 = 49 Total Pluses After conditions removed.

To compete with the value of a condition debuffed Tenfold Echo with Outer Sky+Silver of Evening using Echoes of the Forebear(Assuming we're still condition debuffed), you'd need 7 Echoes

2.25*6+2.15*6+2.55*6 = 41.7 Total Pluses(13.5 Strength, 12.9 Constitution, 15.3 Agi)

2.25*7+2.15*7+2.55*7 = 48.65 Total Pluses(15.75 Strength, 15.05 Constitution, 17.85 Agi)
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Why would you assume that Tenfold wouldn't get Silver? That's just silly. Where would those 18 Arete go instead?
 
Preliminary vote count?

Conjured Blade said:
Ignoring the multiplicative nature of Pluses for the moment(Apparently each plus is 1.1 times the actual value of a stat according to this word of Rihaku from way back(A Simple Transaction I Original), because I may try to do another analysis where I take that into account if I can muster up the motivation/time
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Mm, that estimate is no longer relevant at the level where Hunger has his physical stats these days.
 
Hungry Vim off to an early lead, it seems.
Adhoc vote count started by BrainInAJar on Jul 19, 2020 at 4:43 PM, finished with 18 posts and 13 votes.
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Wolfy said:
Why would you assume that Tenfold wouldn't get Silver? That's just silly. Where would those 18 Arete go instead?
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The question is relevant because we're ignoring 10 +s to our base stats. I wanted to know how many picks will be required to catch up to the bundle of power we're being offered
 
Zampano said:
The question is relevant because we're ignoring 10 +s to our base stats. I wanted to know how many picks will be required to catch up to the bundle of power we're being offered
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Yeah, and he fucked up the equation and assumed that Tenfold wouldn't have Silver while Outer Sky would for no reason. Actual answer would be something like 8.4 Echos or whatever, Outer Sky increases our multiplier by like 13%.
 
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