[X] Larissa of House Alynne
[X] Hero-Defeating Stance
[X] Fierce Quickening


Alright, I've been convinced to put up with Larissa for the sake of humanitarianism.

I would like to argue for Hero-Defeating stance, though. I feel kinda like a lot of people aren't going for it because they assume other people won't go for it, but maybe that's too optimistic of me. Other reasons:

1. If we're headed for Trinity anyway, whether or not HDS leads to ADS isn't super relevant in the short term, and we'll have more freedom to S A V E after we get out of this godforsaken temple.
1*. Arguably being further away from ADS is beneficial because fucking up the Trinity at this point would be a shame, but that's a twisty argument so eh.
2, After ADS, TKSA is the main reason to avoid HDS. And if you're dead set on TKSA, and this is fair because the 1v1 everyone is stupid strong, I won't be able to convince you. But capping Rank advantages is better for a low-Rank build, while the .2 External Rank is pretty snazzy if we want to juice our Rank, which Crimson Flare incentivizes. And, of course, this is what's available right now, when we could really use the boost.
3. We could really use the boost. We'll probably be outnumbered against the Immortals, at least in terms of relevant combatants, and if Avecarn is any indication their primary advantage against us would be Rank.
3*. As Avecarn also proved, with Guile-Defeating Stance Hunger is easier to overpower than to trick, and preventing people from overpowering you is exactly what HDS does.
4. The main competitor, Weapon-Defeating Stance has shiny stats, but I'm not primarily worried about weapon-having enemies and I think being Outranked is more likely to lead to defeat than being Outstatted; if nothing else, I trust Hunger's ability to survive the latter. Less crunchily, I expect we'll need to defeat heroes more than weapons for the next stretch. : P

At the moment, it looks like... one, two... and now three people are voting for it, but being the underdog is exactly where Hero-Defeating Stance excels! It's time for a comeback, guys; vote Hero-Defeating Stance!
 
Rihaku has stated that the utility of agility goes up the more pluses we take with it actually, rather then diminishing returns, probably because atleast one of our buffs in the form of Edeldross is basically multiplicative rather then linear.
I'm not saying we get diminishing returns on Agility*, I'm saying it's dangerously one dimensional. SORD faster and harder personally is not always the safest way to win a fight let alone the best way to deal with every situation. Weapon-Defeating is the most specialised of the stances and adds to what is already our greatest strength and FQ does too. Both together leaves our relative weakness uncovered: magic, Rank, leadership... the combination helps us with none of them.

Magic-Defeating or Hero-Defeating both give more coverage with FQ than Weapon-Defeating Stance.

*Numerically anyway. It does become redundant for any given opponent. Once you can one-shot them before they can react it doesn't matter if you're 10% faster or 10,000 times faster.
 
If there actually are people who are ready to make the push for Hero-Defeating Stance, how could I not try to help them? All aboard the Not Dying train!

[X] Larissa of House Alynne
[X] Hero-Defeating Stance
[X] Fierce Quickening
 
If there actually are people who are ready to make the push for Hero-Defeating Stance, how could I not try to help them? All aboard the Not Dying train!

I'll note that Rihaku actually said that Weapon-Defeating Stance would be better over all with two Fierce Quickenings than Hero-Defeating Stance. I'm not sure how this would compare with only one but I can't imagine the difference would be too wildly different. Considering it's far more efficient than taking Hero-Defeating Stance (and brings us one step closer to the ultimate Not Dying power), it's certainly worth considering. And while we are taking the Trinity, we've still got to face off with Bearic and the Apocryphal next, so having it within close reach is very valuable, to say nothing of the future.
 
To Battle`s close reaction 1820 words.

Soon, he promised mentally, addressing the imprisoned Ring, willing his own to act as conduit. He did not know if the Rings could actually speak to one another, did not know if it was merely a futile gesture, but sought to offer whatever hope he could: the strength, perhaps, to resist for one day more, to deny its exploiters whatever power it could, here in this final hour. One way or another, your suffering ends soon.

He hadn't expect an answer of any kind, so Hunger startled when the Imprisoned Ring replied: first a trickle, then a steady stream, and finally a torrent of numinous power, transgressing space and time, raw potential like a livid thunderbolt flowing into the blood-red jewel of his own Ring. Crimson flared and blazed, a star risen from earth, such fearsome majesty that he staggered to contain it, the power of the jewel threatening to overcome and unbalance the Ring as a whole.

Interesting way for Rihaku to justify the upgrade to Flare in story. I expected the Flare to be something that Hunger awakens on his own like with Cut Through but this is nice and in hindsight rather obvious. The Imprisoned Ring sensing his sibling who is less powerful and free empowers him, just for the smallest of hopes that he will be freed in return.

Gisena sheltered the girls as he forced down its catastrophic might, compressing its all-piercing radiance until it could be safely contained. Now the jewel glittered with translucent fire: final remnant of the Imprisoned Ring's defiance, all its hope and joy of life, all its remaining will to resist, given over to him.

Gisena: Girls, hide behind me. Uncle Hunger has problems with containing his power sometimes and it splutters everywhere.

Letrizia: My super juggernaut undead chimera is evolving. Nobody press B!

Aeira: Can I go home? I think you are crazy.

Hunger (who is struggling not to explode): I HATE ALL OF YOU.

The ring was defiant all along but in this final moment the will to resist was given to Hunger. Now the Ring has become the tool that the Temple think it is. Just serving its masters without end or defiance.

The Call of the False Moon faded from his mind, and he knew instinctively that it had faded from every other. This was the final sally of the Imprisoned Ring, one last desperate act of trust when all else had failed.

Hunger closed his eyes.

"You're our only hope."



Let`s ignore the star wars reference (RIP my sweet prince. The three movies is all we ever deserved)



How fucking sad is that you have to trust your rival to get you out because everything else failed. The Call was basically the last scraps of power not being siphoned. I wonder what the Inner Residents think when the Call stop being broadcasted 24/7. Is it somehow filtered in the Inner Temple or it is something every citizen has to live with. At some point people probably just stopped caring and it is now a static buzz in the back of their minds.

How many times had they told him that in the campaign against the Tyrant? That he was it, that there was no other, that if he shirked his duty, or faltered, or failed, then it simply would not be done - only misery everlasting for the peoples of the world, clawing feebly at the yoke as it tightened and tightened.

Ah shit, isekai world PTSD, here we come. The powerless and abused beings ask our hero for help, knowing full well they don`t have anything to offer him. With this flashback I think Hunger would never accept some sort of arrangement with the Temple – he will free the Ring or die trying.

It seemed he was not free of such duties. Perhaps would never be free. People fell into the patterns of their lives because of what they were good at. This was what he'd done all his life; was it such a surprise to have duty thrust upon him once more? Moreover, for something he intended to do anyway.

Even so, fuck these so-called interesting times.

Duty – interesting word that is thrown around in both worlds, where Hunger and Gisena has come from.

In Hunger case, he was summoned and forced to endure a deconstruction of the isekai (shit) genre to show what actually happens when you summon some stupid teenager from modern society into brutal fantasy world. Still Hunger did his duty and at the end he was destroyed. The love of his life – dead. The people that he tried to save betrayed him and wanted him dead. Now forced into almost eternal servitude (937 octillion years is fucking long) to a being that could`ve been Satan. His Duty now is to find a way to get Vengeance on the people that destroyed him and resurrect his wife and child. He told Letrizia he is no longer a hero, just a mercenary. But the hidden heart of a Hero could not be so easily subverted. He will help the downtrodden and cast down the Tyrants of this world and the next. And the next. And the next. All along the infinite singularity husk that people call multiverse.

In Gisena`s case Duty is something that was planted in the core of the human civilization from the Maiden. In that world case the Implicit Duty was a memetic virus that had infected the human race with the notion that people have responsibilities that they don`t like but they understand it must be done. In the original 'A simple transaction' Gisena had infiltrated the orc army and pretended to be a traiter. The orcs did not trust her but she was sent to battle where she was forced to kill humans and Sorceresses. She did all that just to have a chance to meet the orc Hero and have a chance to kill him. Seram killed her and later resurrected her. This Gisena came from a world without Seram and she probably met the orc boss and was about to be executed when she said 'fuck it, I am out'. Honestly I think Gisena is even more fucked up in the head than Hunger but she is able to hide it better. Imagine being so deep undercover you have to kill your fellow Sorceresses and humans and in the end it did not matter. She finally gave up on her Duty and escaped. A prudent decision but I think her nihilism was amplified by what she perceives as betrayal. She plays around with explosives without a care in the world, because deep down she does not think she deserves to live. Survivors often display those issues – why am I the one that survived?

He understood the sorrow of the Imprisoned Ring, the depths it must have been driven to, not only to ask a rival for aid, but to beg, and to invest everything in that begging. He understood its shattered pride, the egregious disgrace of its situation, the sheer hollowing agony of its every moment.

Hunger is the Ring and the Ring is Hunger. Our hero understands the depth of despair of the closest thing he has to a sibling and a nemesis. Other Rings ignored the Call, probably happy that there is one less rival in the Primacy battle.

The world of the Rings is one where the strong rule over the weak. There could never be a second place. The natural role is one Ruling Ring and all others are servants.

So imagine what it takes to ask for help, to throw away any pretense of pride. To show weakness to a rival and submit himself to subservient role.

Hunger listens to the calls and he will answer. Always. Hunger is on his way and Blood followed with him.

For that reason he did not resent the Ring for casting this burden upon him. The power it had gifted him would make its salvation easier. But he would freely resent the universe, and the Apocryphal Curse that guided it, until the end of his days.

I think the Praxis would have been a nice fit for our hero. He hates the universe, a resentful universe where the weak are exploited and the powerful are Tyrants. He will make the universe change, even if he has to destroy it.

On second thought, Rihaku said that getting Praxis is greedy and if our strategy and planning is not on point we would have died. ….Yep I think it is good that we got the Scepter.

No, he shook his head. Until he overcame them both. That was the promise of Progression, after all. Live, and grow strong. So long as he took care of the former, it would ensure the latter.

Live, and rescue the Ring, and grow strong.

Live and grow. Grow and live. This is the simplest expression of progression without end. Survive and learn and come back stronger. That which does not kill him will make you stronger.



He rose from his seated position. "There's no way they didn't notice that. Tomorrow morning may be too late."

Lucky that Aeira had gotten them the intelligence she had. He could only hope his present strength was enough to deal with the Immortals of the Temple. The Imprisoned Ring had given him little choice.

Gisena laid a gentle hand on his arm. "Hey. This isn't your responsibility, no matter how it may make you feel. You can still walk away. Always."

He smiled bitterly. "That may be the smart thing to do. And likely the wise thing as well. But only one of us here is a genius. Find me when your meditations are complete."

So saying, he leapt off Verschlengorge, making for the Temple directly.

The die is cast. The temple beckons, the endgame has begun. In few updates either the Ring is freed from the grasp of the masters or we are freed from the grasp of Rihaku`s quest.

I think Gisena is addressing both Hunger and herself. You can`t shoulder all the responsibility and you can always walk away (just like she did with her world). I think Gisena does not like seeing Hunger still trying to be a hero after everything that has happened to him.

Hunger can pretend he is done with the hero business. The parting words reveal that he will still do what needs to be done.

The gift of the Imprisoned Ring had tremendously augmented his own Chief Dominion. Blood rushed and thundered in his ears, an ocean of awareness that stretched far miles: vein and capillary, pulse and heartbeat were naked to him, from the birds in the air to the beasts of the earth, and all the humanity of the Encampment in-between. It was a deluge, too much to process, and he hurriedly tamped it down, focusing the power as it solidified, directing it into his immediate vicinity alone. A greater concentration of power was more suitable to his purposes.

He accelerated, world a watercolor blur. There was the Temple.

In through the gates, then quickly across the grasslands, up over the mountains and into the Middle Ring. Edeldross-infused, he pushed forward, faster than he'd gone before, the accumulated power of recent days like thunderheads gathering in his wake. Outriders tried feebly to intercept. Those who could not keep up were ignored, the others slaughtered. The Inner Temple loomed, dome of matte blue like still deep waters, a globe stripped bare of land.

Hunger, you keep using the words stealth, parley and infiltration. I don`t think you know what they mean. Or he is just following the Hitman franchise famous quote – " no one will notice if there is no one to notice". Kill every witness and your entrance will remain unseen.



A man strode out to meet him, a solid brick wall of muscle, his face creased and cragged, hair streaked with gray. He wore a uniform of gray and black, a marshal's baton strapped to his side, eyes like coals flecked with bronze.

BGA - Badass Grandpa Administrator enters the battlefield. I think we all know where this is going sadly.

Hunger flared his Ring and felt the man's blood quail before him, even as the greater portion stood strong. Even with all his newfound powers, this would not be an easy fight.

He stopped, addressing the man directly. "Care to live more than a thousand years?"

The man chortled, a low, bleak rumble. "Hah! Ask me again in seven centuries."

Suppress the guy`s blood and then offer him more centuries of life. Sadly BGA still has seven centuries allotted to him. Also it is extremely rude to suppress the blood and then start to parley. Dick move Hunger.

No urgency. Unfortunate. "You people must have known this day was coming."

"Confident, aren't you?" The man frowned, eyes darting to Hunger's finger. "Maybe that's justified, you've got a Ring all to yourself. Some might say it's greedy to go looking for more."

"Are you going to pretend ignorance of what's inflicted on your own?"

"A Ring is not a person," the man shook his head, frown deepening. "Seems you've forgotten that, or maybe never knew it in the first place. Fail to master it and it will master you."

It is interesting that BGA can recognize another Ring. Does that mean that stealth is impossible and Hunger cannot pretend to be somebody else? If one look is all it takes to know that Hunger is dangerous and powerful we were better of taking Planetary brand.

The expected moral dilemma is here. BGA thinks that the Rings are nothing but tools to be exploited. Unfortunately Hunger is a hybrid of ring bearer and a Ring so good luck trying to convince him not to safe his sibling. But enough talk. Don`t ruin a good fight scene with some lame adult conversation to hash out your differences.

"Perhaps," Hunger shrugged. "But that doesn't justify what your society has done. Let your Ring rest at last. Turn it over voluntarily, or help me secure it, and I can empower you and yours with my own."

Again the man shook his head. "Sorry, kid. I've got a family that depends on that thing to live. Putting everyone's lives into only your hands? That's not happening."

As expected, the exploited Ring is the power source of their civilization and way of life. We have almost no chance trying to convince them to give it up. If some alien come to our world and try to convince us that actually electrons are alive and we are exploiting them so we should give up everything I am pretty sure our answer will be to nuke the hippie bastard.

…shit, BGA thinks we are some Ring hippies. This is worse than I imagined.

And so Hunger struck, the power of his Ring pressing down upon his foe, blue of true reality outlining his Blade as it descended with cataclysmic force. The marshal reacted quickly, interposing his baton, but could not resist the power of Hunger's cut, and lost half his hand before he twitched out of the way. A spike of fired Edeldross adjusted the vector of his charge, stifling the marshal's evasion. The Forebear's Blade pierced through his foe's shoulder even as the man howled, plunging his free hand through Hunger's guts.

We have sword praxis BGA, your shitty baton is no match for it. Still the grandpa is badass for a reason he plunges his hand into our guts.

Meaningless. With the elevated Ring of Blood such wounds were nearly immaterial. He clenched the muscles of his core, trapping the man's arm for an instant, and twisted his blade downwards, carving through shoulder and breast. The marshal grunted, blood seeping from his mouth as he fell to a knee. With a desperate surge of energy he exploded backwards, tearing his shoulder free of the trapped arm, extending the distance between them.

This is so hardcore. BGA has pierced our stomach so Hunger just flexes his abs to trap the arm of the enemy inside him. Holy fucking shit. People say that you can grate cheese on somebody`s abs. Hunger`s abs can be used to grate rocks and sharpen swords.

BGA does not let some kid be more hardcore than him. He tears down his shoulder in order to get away. Like a boss. I will miss you grandpa. You were a cool dude.

Relentlessly he pressed the attack, pouring blade-winds towards the retreating figure, sharpness like a humming shrike screaming towards him. The marshal twisted, inhaling deeply, accepting a blow to the chest in order to counterattack, a roar of pure stygian force that upturned the earth in its wake. Ripping free his foe's embedded arm, Hunger hurled it at the blast, deflecting enough of the energies that he could weather the remainder with the Evening Sky, though the cloak was torn to bits around him.

When he is forced to deal with Hunger`s blade wind spam BGA just yells "GET OFF MY TEMPLE" and deflects everything. But in a second act of audacity this scream is partially deflected by the piece of arm that was stuck inside Hunger`s abdomen muscles.

This battle was nearing its end. A seal of blood closed around the hole in his torso, while his enemy's wounds bled liberally, a ceaseless arterial spray. Still the marshal rallied, lunging at him, a second Pressure-infused bark ripping through Hunger's remaining blade-winds, driving towards a final confrontation.

But there was no room here for honor, no spirited duel of ideals. Hunger dove to the side, focused shamelessly on evading, simply falling back and giving wide berth to the marshal's dying rampage, his magnificently pointless death-throes. The Jewel of Blood did the rest.

Mighty as the marshal was, greater than Hunger in Astral strength, he was not Vanreir whose body was as a blade. This was a champion among men, with all a mortal's failings. Liter by liter the marshal bled out until not even the iron wall of his Pressure could stand him upright any longer. He fell, eyes blank, his blood and his life expended utterly in service of his nation, and Hunger did not look back.

But the EFB Ring reigns supreme. Every cut means inevitable loss of blood. BGA still thinks that this is a shonen battle and there will be one final deciding blow but Hunger is done with that shit. He just shamelessly waits BGA to die from blood loss. At the end BGA falls, doing what he has done his entire life – fighting for the Temple and their way of life. RIP badass grandpa, I hope your grandkids take care of the plants in the temple.

There is no sadness or anger in Hunger. He did his job and BGA did his. At the end only one of them could have lived and moved on.

So this was the result of our plan to infiltrate the Temple. We killed everyone that tried to stop us and when the High Marshall BGA came we bled him out. Hunger does not fuck around.

[ ] Cut - The state of disarray and relative confusion induced by the Imprisoned Ring's final surge of volition will not last much longer. While the defenders are still poorly-organized, push for the Treasure At Temple's Heart. With the surge of power gained from the marshal's defeat, bring an end to this at last. +1 pick below.

*The defenders are scattered and disorganized. Many Immortals and relevant combatants may be at home or otherwise occupied. Free the Ring and finish this.

I admit I first voted for this. After the battle (which was excellently written) the blood was pumping and I felt that Hunger is invincible. What more CHAD way to rescue to Ring than going single-handedly against the entire civilization and winning. The Azure Ring would have probably enlarge himself just to be carried princess style to keep the story suitable romantic epic. But after some thought a calmer and more reasonable approach prevailed.

[ ] Foment Rebellion - These Immortals are likely a tier above even the marshal, in which case Hunger cannot be confident of his odds even against one, much less a group. Attack, but do so in a way that demonstrates your power and the inevitability of your victory. Secure what allies of opportunity you can from the repressed, the downtrodden or the merely resentful.

*Your intelligence reports have revealed the potential cracks in Inner Ring society. It would be a shame not to exploit them and improve your odds of victory in the long run.

*Lose the momentum of your sudden assault and be virtually guaranteed to oppose the full complement of Immortals gathered in their place of power.

*As you have the Guile-Defeating Stance, the chance of your collaborators successfully betraying you is low.

*Prolongs the battle enough for Gisena and Aeira to join you, though this may endanger them.

Let`s actually be reasonable and not suicidal for once. Attacking a council of immortal mages without magic defense is suicidal even for our (admittedly) rather low standards of self-preservation. We can get Gisena and allies but we will probably meet more resistance.

Less epic in the long run but I think NOT DYING is better.

Time to do my time in the Arete gulag. I will try to do one more.

[X] Larissa of House Alynne
[X] Weapon-Defeating Stance
[X] Fierce Quickening
 
I'll note that Rihaku actually said that Weapon-Defeating Stance would be better over all with two Fierce Quickenings than Hero-Defeating Stance. I'm not sure how this would compare with only one but I can't imagine the difference would be too wildly different.
That's what I thought initially but, apparently, one vs two Fierce Quickening make a big difference:
Hm... Weapon-Defeating Stance is popular, but it's considerably better with two Fierce Quickenings than with one... each marginal stat + offers more value than the last!
 
I'm not saying we get diminishing returns on Agility*, I'm saying it's dangerously one dimensional. SORD faster and harder personally is not always the safest way to win a fight let alone the best way to deal with every situation. Weapon-Defeating is the most specialised of the stances and adds to what is already our greatest strength and FQ does too. Both together leaves our relative weakness uncovered: magic, Rank, leadership... the combination helps us with none of them.

Magic-Defeating or Hero-Defeating both give more coverage with FQ than Weapon-Defeating Stance.

*Numerically anyway. It does become redundant for any given opponent. Once you can one-shot them before they can react it doesn't matter if you're 10% faster or 10,000 times faster.

Well, there something to be said about investing in your strength when we have reason to believe we're dealing with multiple much stronger enemies, but I could definitely be persuaded to change to a difference stance. I think hero defeating would be the most helpful, but my concern is it doesn't develop ADS, which depending on how long this takes could become a relevant panic buy if we continually keep whittling down it's costs.



So, one last thing I feel like pointing out in favor of House Alynne.

*This squad of naive fools is focused on doing what's right to an almost impractical degree, but Hunger can respect that. +Mental Stability.

We have been straight up told that Fairchild and her followers are focused on doing what's right in to the point that it's impractical. Considering what else we know about their moral standards, I find it highly unlikely that their going to be willing to go along with any plan that involves Lord Hunger consigning millions to death to go for a early grab for the ring. Since we don't seem likely that we're going to take any picks that will help much with the evacuation, based on what Rihaku has said this will generally mean that the Immortals get to bear down at us at full power with their entire membership. Considering we've learned it takes atleast three high marshal tier + dozens of marshal tier benefiting from Blood buffs to match 1-2 of them, this would be a exceptionally bad outcome.

Meanwhile, keep in mind, the combat strength of Fairchild and her followers amount to one High Marshal tier which is Fairchild herself compared to three, along with one or maybe two marshalls, with the rest being fodder tier. This leads me to believe that we're either going to stuck in a situation where we abandon most of the benefits of Foment to go for the ring without Fairchild allies and possibly causing them to turn on us given the atrocity that our victory would cause, or we go with the much slower evacuation. Then, we have to hope that a single High Marshal tier buff on Hunger and a single extra pick is enough to not only make up for however many extra immortals they will have plus another deficit of roughly 1.5 thanks to not having House Alynne forces plus the hidden cost of not having info on the inner ring defenses or as much info on the Immortals will be fighting. Personally, I find that hope kind of far-fetched.

Hopefully this might help any people who a part of Not Dying who are on the fence make their decisions.
 
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1*. Arguably being further away from ADS is beneficial because fucking up the Trinity at this point would be a shame, but that's a twisty argument so eh.
A sure way to fuck up Trinity is to die. If we get one of the three stances that build towards ADS we would be 14 Arete away from it. If things turn truly dire in 1-2 updates, we would be able to panic buy it(remember it is 0 pick). I hope WeDS or MDS is sufficient, but we are not immune to low rolls. I hope we get Trinity but at least have a backup plan in this DLC dungeon

We have been straight told that Fairchild and her followers are focused on doing what's right in to the point that i's impractical.
Change 'what`s right' to 'what sounds cool' and you have the thread mentality explained in one sentence
 
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Well, there something to be said about investing in your strength when we have reason to believe we're dealing with multiple much stronger enemies, but I could definitely be persuaded to change to a difference stance. I think hero defeating would be the most helpful, but my concern is it doesn't develop ADS, which depending on how long this takes could become a relevant panic buy if we continually keep whittling down it's costs.
I think there would be heavy resistance to finishing ADS since it loses us Trinity
 
Personally I find the idea that we can make up the quality with quantity a bit too hopeful. They need to combine all their powers and receive Hunger's blood buffs to match an Immortal or two, but we can't expect the Immortals to remain separate and leave us with an easy way of killing them off.

My rationale for picking Fairbright is simple, as I've mentioned - it gives the maximal increase to Hunger's personal power. She has a buffing bloodline, which Hunger can improve through his own blood buffing, so they have great [REDACTED]. If we also take WDS and two Fierce Quickenings here, we'll only need two more picks to get Ferocity Incarnate (for which we need to kill a High Marshall by this point, btw), which is bound to be another jump in speed and some other type of significant bonus. That might be enough to bridge a gap that no amount of High Marshals could help us with. Speed is still king for our build, as it allows us to Cut Through with our unblockable attack faster.

In the end, when in doubt, acquire power.
 
Personally I find the idea that we can make up the quality with quantity a bit too hopeful. They need to combine all their powers and receive Hunger's blood buffs to match an Immortal or two, but we can't expect the Immortals to remain separate and leave us with an easy way of killing them off.
My opinion on how to use them is to identify a target that counters us and send them against it so we can fight the others in relative peace
for which we need to kill a High Marshall by this point, btw),
perhaps multiple high marshals after that much +agi
 
My rationale for picking Fairbright is simple, as I've mentioned - it gives the maximal increase to Hunger's personal power. She has a buffing bloodline, which Hunger can improve through his own blood buffing, so they have great [REDACTED]. If we also take WDS and two Fierce Quickenings here, we'll only need two more picks to get Ferocity Incarnate (for which we need to kill a High Marshall by this point, btw), which is bound to be another jump in speed and some other type of significant bonus. That might be enough to bridge a gap that no amount of High Marshals could help us with. Speed is still king for our build, as it allows us to Cut Through with our unblockable attack faster.

In the end, when in doubt, acquire power.

It also lets you block enemy attacks (and spells!) with your conceptual blade a lot more effectively! While it's not as specialized as Magic-Defeating Stance, successful interception can strongly mitigate the effects of esoteric magic applied against you!
 
*Numerically anyway. It does become redundant for any given opponent. Once you can one-shot them before they can react it doesn't matter if you're 10% faster or 10,000 times faster.
In a world of conceptual magic systems(like Soul Evocation) stats are not the top dog. Some of those immortal neets could have the Soul Evocation of "Nothing personnel, kid", which always allows them to strike first by teleporting behind us and backstabbing us with (preferrably black to keep the weeb tradition) katana.
 
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Personally I find the idea that we can make up the quality with quantity a bit too hopeful. They need to combine all their powers and receive Hunger's blood buffs to match an Immortal or two, but we can't expect the Immortals to remain separate and leave us with an easy way of killing them off.

I'd argue that 1-2 extra immortals worth of power, whatever relevant strategic advantages the High Marshall tiers Soul Evocation beyond brute force might allow us to leverage, and relevant information on how our opponents might stand against us probably beats out a single extra Fierce Quickening and a buff from a vastly inferior opponent to a Immortal, but obviously I can't prove that one way or the other. We can only really infer. However, this-

I'm referring to the humanitarian disaster that removing the Ring will induce! After all, star-stuff harvested from the Ring is what keeps their Dimensional Rift stable, if the civilians aren't evacuated shortly after the Ring is removed then everyone inside will die! House Alynne solves that problem for you, otherwise Hunger will have to figure it out on his own. Aristeia would certainly like to help but she doesn't have the resources of a House to organize an evacuation.

Alternatively, you could not remove the Ring until people are evacuated, but that means you'd have to fight all the Immortals at full power instead of just going for the Ring!

Explicitly says that we can just go for the ring without having to fight all the immortals at full power if we don't waste time with things like a non House Alynne evacuation, which Fairbright is almost certainly going to press us hard to do, possibly to the point of no longer helping Lord Hunger given her moral fiber and how many millions of people would be consigned to death.

More importantly, this heavily implies that the Immortals will remain seperate for a relevant amount of time, or having to deal with them all at full power wouldn't be a downside of taking extra time to do something like a Evacuation with the Fairchild faction.
 
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There's also whatever middle ground gets unlocked by Calendar Engine modification with World-Defeating Stance as a more time efficient way of evacuating people that may split the difference and we only fight 1-2 full power immortals. But since Fairbright's not in the lead or close to Larissa level votes right now and World-Defeating stance doesn't have much momentum in spite of my efforts, you should probably go for Larissa.

Edit: This is meant to extend on Sara's advocacy for Larissa builds.
 
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Not sure if this has been said before, but:

Traditionally, in order to use a ring you have to wear it around your body. The innovation of the Temple is that the use of dimensional vortex allows you to place people, ring-extraction equipment, and houses, and have all count as being inside the ring. That is to say, the entire Inner Temple is inside the ring in the most literal way possible, which explains why more than one person can access its light and power, and why shutting down the vortex kills everyone within. The night sky that the star forges mine is literally the inner band of the ring.

The linear halo also mimics the Temple/ring structure, in that there is an inner halo that enhances magic and an outer halo that allows more power to be projected outwards.
 
I'd argue that 1-2 extra immortals worth of power, what relevant strategic advantages the High Marshall tiers Soul Evocation beyond brute force might allow us to leverage, and relevant information on how our opponents might stand against us probably beats out a single extra Fierce Quickening and a buff from a vastly inferior opponent to a Immortal, but obviously I can't prove that. However, this-



Explicitly says that we can just go for the ring without having to fight all the immortals at full power if we don't waste time with things like a non House Alynne evacuation, which Fairbright is almost certainly going to press us hard to do, possibly to the point of no longer helping Lord Hunger given her moral fiber and how many millions of people would be consigned to death.

More importantly, this heavily implies that the Immortals will remain seperate, or having to deal with them all at full power wouldn't be a downside of taking extra time to do something like a Evacuation with the Fairchild faction.
All it says is that Alysanne allows us to attempt making a grab for the Ring instead of defeating all its guardians first, as we can leave the evacuation up to her and concentrate on defeating the rest of the weakened Immortals. But my plan is to kill off the Immortals first anyway. Progression ensures that once we have defeated an enemy of a certain level, others at that stratum of power become easier to deal with, and that only becomes more true as we kill further Immortals. High Marshals will become increasingly irrelevant as we fight more Immortals, but Fairbright will always give us that buff.

I mean, maybe Fairbright's buff is not that great, but she's pretty much carrying the option by herself, so I would expect significant value from it.
 
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All it says is that Alysanne allows us to attempt making a grab for the Ring instead of defeating all its guardians first, as we can leave the evacuation up to her and concentrate on defeating the rest of the weakened Immortals. But my plan is to kill off the Immortals first anyway. Progression ensures that once we have defeated an enemy of a certain level, others at that stratum of power become easier to deal with, and that only becomes more true as we kill further Immortals. High Marshals will become increasingly irrelevant as we fight more Immortals, but Fairbright will always give us that buff.

If we want to take advantage of Fairchild's buff at all, given their noted tendency to do what is right to the point of impracticability, is generally going to mean that the Immortals will be able to mass up. But if we have to let the Immortal mass up, potentially take the fight to Lord Hunger on their terms, and don't necessarily know which of our myriad strategies we can employ their weak too it becomes much harder to take one out to start that spiral since they can use their powers to not only protect each other, but also because they can keep Hunger on the defense.

Their are real advantages to them in keeping Hunger from starting his EXP spiral by fighting him as a group, helping each other defenses, and keeping Hunger on the backfoot that would make your plan harder, not easier, not to mention that the extra 1-2 immortal worth of power and information about them should make it even easier to weaken them plus exploit their weak points for the kill.

I mean, maybe Fairbright's buff is not that great, but she's pretty much carrying the option by herself, so I would expect significant value from it.

Well, it also frees up a extra pick and makes Hunger more mentally stable in the short term which are not insignificant benefits, even if I don't think their worth it.
 
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The provinces, Roused reaction 720 words.

What was the nature of the potential allies Hunger encountered? Choose one. The options unchosen may not exist in-universe.

[ ] The Silver Horde - Those who near the end of their allotted span are placed under heavy surveillance, their ability to organize gradually curtailed and denied the light of the Ring. This greatly-suppressed band of malcontents-by-necessity has found each other in the chaos and would like nothing more than to overthrow the regime that mandates their death. Their motive is purely (enlightened... ?) self-interest, but they will fight ardently all the same, for their very lives are literally at stake.

Combat Strength: Modest. Denied the light for some years, their powers are on the wane.

Cost: 0 picks. Hunger did not have to waste any time picking up this force. They found him and volunteered.

*You get what you pay for. Literal geriatrics are only relevant due to their Soul Evocations.

*They can maybe distract one or two Immortals temporarily.

*Modest knowledge of the Inner Ring.

So after killing Badass Grandpa Administrator Hunger decides to tweet #FuckOldPeople and gather some almost dead guys and send them to their doom. What a douchebag!

[ ] Who Walked Away - Even in the sheltered Inner Ring, there are those who discovered the truth of the Ring's torment, especially among they who have had extensive contact with former Outriders. While most were capable of ignoring the moral implications of the Call, some principled individuals could not help but take a stand. They were swiftly crushed and imprisoned, but Hunger diverted his hunt to open these holding cells, releasing these idealistic dissenters. While many are barely better than chaff in the face of the Marshalls, they are lead by Lady Aristeia Fairbright, whose might even contained was the stuff of legend. Though her powers have been drained by the Council's horrific experiments, she remains a force to be reckoned with, capable of matching a High Marshall in single combat.

Combat Strength: Significant. Aristeia Fairbright is only moderately weaker than Hunger himself. Blood enhancements can augment her significantly. Her followers are useful for causing general pandemonium, though they are hesitant to employ violence against the innocent. One or two might be Marshal-level.



*Another f**king Fairbright

*Very good value for what you pay

*Fairbright Bloodline can buff Hunger, temporarily increasing his own effectiveness in combat as well

*This squad of naive fools is focused on doing what's right to an almost impractical degree, but Hunger can respect that. +Mental Stability.

*Minimal knowledge of the Inner Ring, but a few strategically valuable pieces of data.

Cost: 1 pick, 1 Arete.

…another one? What the fuck is going on here? Is there some Fairbright farm that sprouts all those fucking people?

So, some chaff with a good hero unit that allows us to buff our self even further beyond. On the other hands a group of idealist are not something that we need right now. Especially that we probably need to evacuate the Inner Temple after we take the ring. Rihaku wants to keep the tradition of outrunning the fireball alive. Miss me with that post modernism shit.

Also, wow she is on the level of High Marshall, so power, much wow. We just bled one High Marshall with relative ease. Also she costs 1 Arete – no thanks honey, Stands are my true love.

[ ] Larissa of House Alynne - Mighty House Alynne has been marginalized by recent maneuvers in the Council. Their leader, Lady Larissa, was enraptured by Hunger's brooding magnetism and threw in with him after some convincing. In a fit of opportunistic spite they have raised the flag of rebellion alongside Hunger's incursion. Though she is not personally formidable, Larissa Alynne commands House forces numbering dozens of Marshals, as well as High Marshal Wyvernford and two additional Soul Evokers of equivalent power used to conduct off-the-books operations.

Combat Strength: High. High Marshal Wyvernford alongside the remainder of the Alynne forces might be a match for one to two Immortals on their own, should they receive blood enhancement. Additionally, House Alynne is well-acquainted with the infrastructure of the Inner Ring and would be most suited of the allies on offer to organize an evacuation in the event of Dimensional Rift destabilization.

Cost: 2 picks. Convincing Larissa was not difficult, but it was time-consuming, and not killing Wyvernford leaves Ring-granted power on the table.

*An option unlocked by having 10+ Charisma

*Setting a bad example for Letrizia

*Larissa might get clingy before she is inevitably crushed by Gisena

*House Alayn can spearhead reorganization in the wake of the Ring's departure, making exfiltration smooth and easy, and civilian casualties minimized

*Extremely in-depth information of existing Inner Ring defenses, including (outdated) tactical data on some of the Immortals themselves.

*They also know where the Temple's cache of precious metals & other resources is located, and can save them in time for the Rift. Plenty of currency for everyone!

Gather up ladies and gentlemen. Finally Rihaku gives us what we have been waiting for the entire quest. Gisena marking her prey and fighting off other wolves from the poor lamb Hunger.

The brooding magnetism of Hunger makes the all the single villainesses go gaga for him. He can`t help it, the harem protagonist genes are working overtime.

The simp lady Larissa is our best bet to not destroy the whole Inner Temple. We voted for Ring several votes ago just because we wanted to socially subvert the ruling class. This is your chance people. Gisena Gang, prove that your girl is the top waifu. Vote this and also limit the picks so the WASTE GANG does not have any power see some unwanted harem shenanigans.

Mud fight in the middle of the Temple is just one of the scenes that this option will provide to the thirsty masses.

Last but not least is that this is the option with the highest combat potential. Dozen marshalls and three High Marshall level allies will do wonders when we need some distraction.

[ ] Magic-Defeating Stance - A Martial Stance of the Forebear. Grants high-grade defensive effect nullification against all hostile effects of supernatural origin, and quintuples the power of Ruin for purposes of cutting through enemy magics. Mitigate all Curses an additional half step beyond the first. This Stance is permanently active until switched for another [Type]-Defeating Stance. One of the pre-requisites for All-Defeating Stance. You may have [Rank/2, rounded down] Stances active at one time.

Fixes some of our build issue, namely magic defense. We would not have to constantly bring Gisena with us everywhere we go. Also some of the magic is subtler – curses and debuffs and is not exactly subject to waves of nullity. Probably will not be picked soon due to being to [REDACTED]. RIP MDS, you were too good for this sinful build.

[ ] World-Defeating Stance - A martial stance of the Forebear. Forces natural and premeditated; forces unnatural and obscene - it matters not to the cause of the Forebear, whose march is steady and inevitable, carrying all before it. A billion realms brought to heel and countless more razed to ash, systems of the world in kaleidoscopic arrangement and all bent to his will. Meaningless as escape may be, more futile still is dissent: an enemy is just a future subject, and though they may forget the face of their fathers, the Forebear's visage is burned indelibly into their spirits.

If the user possesses all of the other [Type]-Defeating Stances, upgrades into All-Defeating Stance.

+.2 Rank, ++Luck, ++Intelligence, ++Protection

++++++Protection further against environmental harms, including from incompatible or hostile physics and metaphysics.

*Shelters wielder's powers from suppression or negation, even that resulting from a lack of magic or magical structures within the world.

*5x Power of Ruin against non-supernatural foes or phenomena beyond an human's ability to defeat.

Okay, I guess. Main takeaway is that it prevents our powers from being suppressed. The Temple exploits the Ring so they probably had a way to catch and suppress it. Still because of the Call I don`t think they have enough power to suppress two Rings at the same time.



[ ] Weapon-Defeating Stance - A martial stance of the Forebear. He who would presume to wield force of arms against the Forebear dooms himself to inescapable plight, and well-deserved. No blade that crosses the Forebear's can help but shatter before its unbound might; neither fist nor bolt nor meteor strike can impel its steely aegis. A pre-requisite for All-Defeating Stance.

+++++AGI, +++++Might

5x Power of Ruin to sunder, intercept or destroy all weapons, natural or constructed

+++++Protection against all weapons, natural or constructed

STAT GANG come out to play! With Gisena we have a way to hold off the Soul Evocators but we don`t have the complete answer to another high-stat fighter that is not a Ranklet like us. Specialization towards physical might while Gisena specializes in magic nullification is reasonable and efficient. Dare I say [REDACTED]?

[ ] Hero-Defeating Stance - A Martial Stance of the Forebear. ++Might, ++Agility, +Wisdom, +0.2 external Rank. Halve the effects of enemy Rank if it is greater than your own. Halve the effects of being outnumbered, if you are outnumbered. This Stance is permanently active until switched for another [Enemy]-Defeating Stance. A pre-requisite for Foe-Defeating Stance. You may have [Rank/2, rounded down] Stances active at one time.

Pick this only if you are a Ranklet. Non-[REDACTED] and does not build towards ADS. No thanks.

[ ] The Ring of Power - Dominion - 2 Arete

A ring of power does not exert influence casually. It has its own will, its own preferences, and if that will should be inseparable from its owner's, its sway thereby shall be greater for it.

The available domains for Hunger are: War, Passion

Remember when we once lusted the Ruling Ring. Damn that was like one week ago. The power of progression sure is something else.

[ ] Fierce Quickening - The absurd violence of Blood unleashed. Let all that falls within its dominion be spilled, if it be in service to the Ringbearer. Adds [++Agility, +Wits] to the bonuses from Quickening, subject to the usual conditions. Can be taken up to 3 times.

Two more times until we get to see the extremely powerful 2 pick 2 Arete option. Efficient and helpful due to our build being 'float like a butterfly, sting like a praxis powered bee'.

[ ] Exalted Spirit - 2 Arete. Conjunctional [Hunger, Evening Sky]. Mind made vigorous as the body. Gain +Int, +Wits, +Wis, +Cha, -Heartlessness, while in a form with physical blood. Allies under blood enhancement gain +Int, +Cha. Blood enhancement requires physical blood.

We are at the point where we will be a hard man doing making a hard decision (TM). I prefer the Heartlessness to stay rather than being lowered.

[ ] Evening Sky - Opalescence - The soft light of evening before which all attacks falter.

+Protection, improving defensive parameters.

[ ] Evening Sky - Iridescence - 2 Arete - The sharp light of the stars before which all malice is lessened.

+Protection, +Charisma. Expands the range of effects subject to the Evening Sky, allowing it to passively weaken almost all forms of magic. Even Nullity itself can be once withstood before the Sky recedes. Requires Opalescence.

[ ] Evening Sky - Pearlescence - 7 Arete - Woe unto they who would stand against the bearer of Evening, for all the stars in heaven are their enemies, and the moon above as well.



+++Protection, and the protection granted by the Evening Sky now automatically scales to its wearer's power; effectively, the wearer is granted an additional Experience modifier whose output is automatically applied to the Evening Sky. Requires Iridescence.

Lul Evening Sky. Have we ever updated it directly after Fall of Night? I am sorry InkSky. You were too good for this sinful cloak.



[ ] Forebear's Blade - Iron Maelstrom - 2 Arete - In the storm of war he was as a cloud-piercing pillar.

+++Protection, ++Might to yourself and your allies so long as you stand undefeated. Extremely useful in group combat. Unlocks additional options.

In the end Hunger has to do everything by himself. I don`t think our allies except Gisena will provide enough benefit.



[ ] Heartpiercer - 7 Arete - Blood tells. The Ringbearer listens.

+++CHA, ++AGI, +++++Strength. The wielder embodies the glory of blood, and the savage beauty of its dominion sets hearts to beating. He gains an unusually affinity for striking weak points, and his bloodsense is refined to the degree that he can predict the movements of his enemies by the shifting of their capillaries. Grants a major effectiveness boost in physical or romantic duels (1v1) against beings with corporeal blood, and a minor bonus in physical and romantic conflicts of any kind against such beings.

The forbidden pick. The harem protagonist route – make every heart go doki doki. No wonder Rihaku does not want us to take it. A brooding hero with this powers can turn the entire quest into a visual novel. And I don`t mean the cool ones (there are dozens of them, dozens) but rather the degenerate ones.

Pick this if you are a filthy degenerate man of culture.
 
If we want to take advantage of Fairchild's buff at all, given their noted tendency to do what is right to the point of impracticability, is generally going to mean that the Immortals will be able to mass up. But if we have to let the Immortal mass up, potentially take the fight to Lord Hunger on their terms, and don't necessarily know what their weak too it becomes much harder to take one out to start that spiral since they can use their powers to not only protect each other, but also because they can keep Hunger on the defense.

Their are real advantages to them in keeping Hunger from starting his EXP spiral by fighting him as a group, helping each other defenses, and keeping Hunger on the backfoot that would make your plan harder, not easier, not to mention that the extra 1-2 immortal worth of power and information about them should make it even easier to weaken them plus exploit their weak points for the kill.



Well, it also frees up a extra pick and makes Hunger more mentally stable in the short term which are not insignificant benefits, even if I don't think their worth it.
That doesn't make much sense. The timeline is the same in both options, or might be even worse for Larissa ("Convincing Larissa was not difficult, but it was time-consuming" is written in the costs of the option) so the Immortals don't really stand a better chance of massing up in Who Walked Away before we attack them. They tend to do the right thing over the practical thing, but when the suggestion is 'kill the goddamn Immortals to make further actions easier', why would they object?
 
In a world of conceptual magic systems(like Soul Evocation) stats are not the top dog. Some of those immortal neets could have the Soul Evocation of "Nothing personnel, kid", which always allows them to strike first by teleporting behind us and backstabbing us with (preferrably black to keep the weeb tradition) katana.
In which case our massive mound of extra AGI and Might help us not at all but M-DS could have.
 
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