A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
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Unless I'm missing something, isn't Rihaku saying organizing the evacuation without Larissa's help before going for the ring is explicitly what causes us to have to fight all the immortals at full power, presumably due to the time it takes?
Considering the percentage based stat buffs of Edeldross and the other buffs from the ring, getting more strong allies is pretty synergistic with our build anyhow.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
@formalAI @Sharkey_smt Here's all the stuff from words of Rihaku on World-Defeating Stance this vote. It has been implied extremely strongly that the route works.
All this is referring to the stances from a combat standpoint. Yet all the stances are relevant here, implying World-Defeating stance can have value from a non-combat standpoint.
Hunger having to figure this problem out on his own implies a non Larissa solution exists.
Exalted spirit gets described as useful here by Rihaku, especially for non-combat challenges implying those exist.
When I talked about modifying the Calendar engine to protect the people, Rihaku gave a suggestion THIS specific. Exalted Spirit and World Defeating Stance have Intelligence boosts in common
All this is referring to the stances from a combat standpoint. Yet all the stances are relevant here, implying World-Defeating stance can have value from a non-combat standpoint.
Hunger having to figure this problem out on his own implies a non Larissa solution exists.
Exalted spirit gets described as useful here by Rihaku, especially for non-combat challenges implying those exist.
Rihaku said this in response to people speculating about Edeldross helping us evacuate people.
When I talked about modifying the Calendar engine to protect the people, Rihaku gave a suggestion THIS specific. Exalted Spirit and World Defeating Stance have Intelligence boosts in common
Larissa solves our issue so I think we can focus on the combat potential of WeDS. If Larissa was not in the lead I would consider switching to WoDS.
EDIT: Larissa + WoDS just screams inefficiency
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Yeah we can still try to evacuate people without Larissa and of course certain stats like being smarter, luckier, having things go more his way due to rank would help. Rihaku has stated the first part explicitly before. It just has downsides like allowing the Immortals to mass up and have us fight them together at full power. I'm sure World-DS would help make this faster even with the Larissa option, but i'm unsure about the diminishing returns versus just getting so much faster with Fierce+weapon-defeating stance. I'm going with the latter mostly because I think advantage of tactical speed is going to trump a worse, but already fairly good strategic evacuation speed from not having Larissa+world-DS since she also gives us extremely useful information about inner ring defenses, the powersets of our enemies, and more powerful allies to throw around then the competing options.
If We Walked Away does win however, I highly recommend getting it since it would help manage the heroic evacuation people seem to want from it and Fairchild almost certainly will try to convince us to complete, mitigating the downsides a tad.
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Since the Silver Horde and Heartpiercer didn't seem to get much traction, in the end I decided to go with this:
[X] Who Walked Away
[X] Fierce Quickening
[X] Fierce Quickening X2
[X] Weapon-Defeating Stance
As ever, our greatest advantage remains Progression. Having a much easier time of evacuating the populace is nice, tactical information is good, precious caches of loot are neat, but it's all outshined by the fact that Fairbright has high personal power herself and can buff Hunger even further. We just need to kill an Immortal or two to get this Progression engine running once again, and from there our chances against the Immortals increase massively, so we don't have to worry so much about grabbing the Ring at quickest speed and can whittle them down. I'm also dreadfully curious about her strategic pieces of data.
Plus I don't want to set a bad example for Letrizia! Her world-view has already become skewed after meeting us, and she already has experience with stringing someone along only to abandon them later, no need to make the situation worse by setting another bad example.
[X] Who Walked Away
[X] Fierce Quickening
[X] Fierce Quickening X2
[X] Weapon-Defeating Stance
As ever, our greatest advantage remains Progression. Having a much easier time of evacuating the populace is nice, tactical information is good, precious caches of loot are neat, but it's all outshined by the fact that Fairbright has high personal power herself and can buff Hunger even further. We just need to kill an Immortal or two to get this Progression engine running once again, and from there our chances against the Immortals increase massively, so we don't have to worry so much about grabbing the Ring at quickest speed and can whittle them down. I'm also dreadfully curious about her strategic pieces of data.
Plus I don't want to set a bad example for Letrizia! Her world-view has already become skewed after meeting us, and she already has experience with stringing someone along only to abandon them later, no need to make the situation worse by setting another bad example.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
I'd like to call out this word of Rihaku to raise a question. He was talking here about, presumably, refusing to take the ring until everybody is out, meaning we have to fight all the immortals at full power.
What happens if we modify the calendar engine and take the ring immediately after? How many immortals would we need to fight at full power that way? 1 or 2 before we modify the engine as opposed to all of them perhaps?
Edit: We'd also have the full benefit of Crimson Flare making mopping up the rest much easier I'd imagine.
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I'd like to know that too, all though presumably it would require us taking world defeating, which is the majority of our arete spent on a Stance that isn't exactly geared to making us much better in a fight compared to hero defeating, weapon defeating, or magic defeating, and also not benefiting from the multiple High Marshalls who apparently each currently rival a Fairchild in power after she gets out of jail along with many more marshals tiers.
Well, I'm assuming by full power this would be before we got the ring, since apparently taking the ring starts degrading their power among other deletrious effects to the temple like the collapse.
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Multiple High marshals seems like an exaggeration. High Marshal Wyvernford and the remainder of Larissa's House's army is enough to defeat 1-2 immortals if we're providing blood buffs. That does not imply multiple High Marshal level combatants.(Edit: At least to me)
In addition, we get rank improving our ability to boost Aristesia and we get more protection. We don't know the power level of Aristesia's buffs/what they can effect, so we've got some level of mystery box combat benefits if she wins.
Rihaku
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Yes, think of the children! Do you guys want Letrizia and Aeira to believe that Hunger's the type of mentor who'll ask them to do one thing even as he himself does another? There are few faster ways to lose one's effective authority...
YES!
"Do as I say not as I do" parenting is something that children struggle to understand. So there will be even more HungerDad moments.
LordOfMurder
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Parenting is important guys! Don't disappoint our daughteru, she'll enter her rebellious phase if we're not careful. Gisena will become the favourite!
I fail to see the problem - Gisena has to take care of her while Hunger will have time to go fishing.
I dunno, while even moar stats has it's charm, Fierce Quickening is pretty redundant if we buy Weapon-Defeating Stance. Better to use the pick(s) on something the Stance doesn't already boost to amazing levels. Granted, only Echoes (also redundant) and FQ are zero arete in the current selection but it shouldn't be too hard to scrape up 2 to get Dominion: War - which should help us deploy the various specialists available - or Exalted Spirit - which gives us and our allies better problem solving stats.
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Here we have explicit confirmation that Aristeia is only comparable to a High Marshal as she is.
Meanwhile we're exlicitly told House Alynne has not only a High Marshal, but two other Soul Evokers equivalent to him in power that conduct Blacks Ops operations for the house. Not only that, but aside from the heavy hitters, while Fairbright has at best one or two marshal level fighters alongside her House Alynne has literally dozens. Not only are we saving more people faster, making sure their not living in abject poverty afterwards due to saving resources, and gaining extreme important information about preparing for these fights to come the difference in combat power is staggering.
That even all that power would only suffice to match one to 2 immortals should show you how much a overwhelming force they can be, how little other forces will do against, and how important it is to gather strength, info, and work fast to beat them.
Yes, but hero defeating stance gives that in rank while also giving agility which Rihaku has explicitly stated is still the better combat stat, with weapon defeating giving even more of while dealing with potnetial superweapons, and MDS shoring up our magical defenses while giving curse mitigation. Given how our Edeldross buff is percentage based, the more agility we can stack the more overwhelming that advantage becomes.
Rihaku has stated that the utility of agility goes up the more pluses we take with it actually, rather then diminishing returns, probably because atleast one of our buffs in the form of Edeldross is basically multiplicative rather then linear.
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Ah. I overlooked the fact the Black Ops people were apparently High Marshall class.
Edit: What's the difference between External Rank and regular rank though? I've forgotten.
Edit: What's the difference between External Rank and regular rank though? I've forgotten.
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External rank does not benefit from +Rank% from Uttermost
OctarineShrike
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In that case the actual rank gain from WDS could be .26 given the 30 percent buff from Uttermost.
Potentially Relevant word of Rihaku: A Simple Transaction I Original
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usually external rank doesn't apply to everything
if it has no modifiers there isn't really a difference as far as I know, such as with Super Juggernaut Undead Chimera
e: oh right except Uttermost & similar applying to it my bad.
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If we're comparing Hero-Defeating vs World Defeating, setting aside the former giving much more relevant stat gains for our surviability that benefit more due to Edeldross' percentage boost, Given how high rank Avecarn was and the knowledge that it takes 3 people of his caliber plus dozens of marshals with blood enhancement atleast to match one or two of them, I suspect that Halving the effects of ranks greater then our own is likely to be more of a factor then then a extra .06 gain in rank. That's probably why it's ranked higher in terms of usefulness.
The only reasons i'm willing to go with Weapon Defeating over Hero defeating is because it builds into ADS which we might be able to panic buy if we get into another Avecarn situation and because agility only gets better the more of it we get.
The only reasons i'm willing to go with Weapon Defeating over Hero defeating is because it builds into ADS which we might be able to panic buy if we get into another Avecarn situation and because agility only gets better the more of it we get.