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A Simple Transaction I

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Mannan said:
The problem is that we only unlock the extra features like Ennobling after we rescue the Ring. We still have to retrieve it and at that point there is a good argument to just leave and head straight towards the Human Sphere.

The Immortals would have lost the majority of their power due to Soul Evocation no longer being viable.
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We have a chance of baseline ennobling(the 2 arete upgrade) from winning a social conflict I suspect. We get refunded that once we get the ring and can do it better.
 
With Gisena's aid we can potentially remove sigils. This allows us to take the people they send out after us out of contact and persuade them to side with us. If we do that enough we might drag the powers that be to the negotiating table, but they'll probably at least try a disproportionate response first.

Direct infiltration runs into the problem of probably needing sigils although we could remove them after the fact and attempt to hide in the populace. That would let us scout out the ring's security a little, but stealing the ring and getting away with it probably involves successfully running away afterward. That leaves a lot of people in a lot of trouble with the rulers more focused on hunting us down than looking for alternatives.

If we want the populace to riot we need to break the status quo first, cutting off the flow of luxuries first before offering an alternative. We could go after infrastructure that is powered by the ring and shut it down or subvert it. With blood debuffs we could potentially try to make people incompatible with Soul Evocation and get them chucked out, removing opposition to our plans and scaring neutral individuals into staying out of our way.
 
@Zampano , @Sara , @formalAI , I will retire for the night in an hour. Do you want to use your vote markers?

Also I am in Europe so Rihaku updates come in the early morning, so if you want to use the markers please do it before 22:00 Central european time.
 
There are a couple of different strategic objectives you could try, and many of them have overlapping (and some, contradictory) prerequisites. For example, if you want to maximize Rank gain via fame, that requires you to make yourself known to the populace and would likely benefit from some form of mass Ennobling plan. If you just want out as soon as possible, that would likely require a different type of plan.
 
Unelemental said:
Ennobling is a separate advancement we could develop, we can just refund it and have it become much more efficient after we rescue the Ring. It's useful for conquest, our Geas task, so we would want it sooner or later anyway.
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It's also a rare development and we wouldn't get the pick back, but having it ahead of time (heh) could be useful. 4x lifespan versus the prescribed thousand years granted to the Inners is obviously not a good trade, but if the former multiplies the latter there'd be parties in the streets in the brief period preceding our betrayal.
Projectile said:
The recent Ringy influences on Hunger-the-manswordmantlering and the Renaissance Woman blurb might mean giving the Azure Ring to Gisena, even if possible, is probably a bad idea. Can she become the quintessence of humanity if she's also a Ring?
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Yeah, it's not clear if any of our current companions is a viable candidate. It's the Azure Ring, not the Violet! Otherwise Gisena'd be a... shoe-in.

The hit to my dignity of making that pun aside, I'm in favor of giving her the Ring if it doesn't cost prohibitive amounts of Arete. Both as a peace offering to the RW faction and because dual-wielding Rings sounds like a bad idea.
 
Hmm, that and my earlier musings makes me think.

You know what would suck? If we started the Temple social conquest, managed to successfully subvert part of the population, were gearing up for the final stretch, and then suddenly the Azure Ring died on us or someone else saved it. Because the Crimson Flare blurb says 'if the Azure Ring is saved'. Now what happens to all those tasty Crimson advancements if we don't save it because it's no longer possible? That would be one way for Apocrypha to fuck up our day.
 
Orm Embar said:
Thinking about the categories, an X-type incursion might be a Ringbearer?
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No, Hunger is directly stated in the text to be an R-type, Gisena is very likely the X type, and I'm pretty sure that the reason WHY she's an X type is because her nullity allows her to destroy the ring and/or whatever protections exist around it.

vali said:
Hunger = R-type obviously.

Given that they've never seen X-type before, and the only new person to enter the Temple recently being Gisena, they must be getting that result off Gisena. Or possibly something about the combo of Gisena and Hunger. And of course when we leave Gisena back at camp the X-type chance drops to 0.
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...

Rihaku said:
Existence itself is a boon to them who live beyond the prescribed ten million. They are defended in large part by our largesse, with a not-insignificant fraction of our star-stuff re-directed to power the Ritual Grounds.
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I'm guessing that adventurers come here, die in the ritual grounds, and come back as knights. The Temple also probably sends criminals here to be executed, which is how creatures like the Dreadbeast get created. Or maybe the Dreadbeast was just some wild animal that wandered in?

As for the encampment, perhaps the ring can only entrap a set number of people at a time. If it can only keep 1,000 people moon-struck at once, then it makes sense to have an encampment where you make sure that people don't die right away, but instead linger around sucking up power. Each new person who arrives is a new risk, a new chance that someone truly powerful might take an interest, so it's best to limit new arrivals.

Mannan said:
The Immortals would have lost the majority of their power due to Soul Evocation no longer being viable.
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Those reports are full of lies and internal propaganda meant to convince the Temple inhabitants to stick with this scam the immortals set up.

The claim that their magic is reliant on the ring is a deception meant to insure they don't betray the Temple. We know, thanks to being offered the Seven Seals pick, that Soul Evocation is in no way reliant on the ring.
 
Rank-grinding was the second thing on my post-Temple wishlist, and I worry about Hunger's lack of fucks, so I really like the sound of selling him on benevolence in the form of fame gain.

Social boost>Attention>possible fight?>(save Ring ASAP goes here?)>begin of collapse/drama>blood magic>Fame>Rank>Cleanup>Leave

Edit: also leadership purge in there
 
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Alright, lets try to shill for S A V E ing a bit -
  • It should be noted that even base we have "very good" chances of success. I understand everyone's unwillingness to take risks, especially after the temple, but the fact remains that playing perfectly safe is just not efficient, and that matters with Apocrypha being around. We can't afford to make every fight perfectly safe; as such, being more efficient is important than temporary safety; instead, our goal should be taking acceptable risk that enable long term survival. In particular, hypothetical reward we will get from High Marshall should be much more valuable than buying any Stance
  • Speaking of safety, consider that Magic-Defeating Stance doesn't improve our chances in upcoming combat and majority of it's effects are relevant afterwards; as such, instead of buying it we can save Arete to see what options we have for next vote and then decide how to spend our currency. Making informed decisions, how wonderful!
  • In particular, by moving this decision point to the next vote, we shift context from "what's the best against High Marshall" to "what's the best for conquering temple". Remember, he is just another obstacles, so overspending on him is not wise!
  • Also, saving means that we might get refundable stuff for Crimson
  • Back to Stances, remember that true value of Stance is not about what it does or that they build into a EFB; their true value lies in our ability to snap-buy them against any enemy, making both our general play style and SAVEing vastly more secure. However, by buying them we reduce the pool of possible purchases and, thus, reduce that amazing safety net. Merely buying them for their effect is very short sighted!
Rihaku said:
There are a couple of different strategic objectives you could try, and many of them have overlapping (and some, contradictory) prerequisites. For example, if you want to maximize Rank gain via fame, that requires you to make yourself known to the populace and would likely benefit from some form of mass Ennobling plan. If you just want out as soon as possible, that would likely require a different type of plan.
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Dunno about others, but I'm all for turning the populace against Immortals, if that's possible at all! After all, leading oppressed masses against Tyrants is our specialty..
 
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for Super Juggernaut Undead Chimera, was it ever explicitly clarified whether the Rank boost is a one time boost or also a modifier to future Rank gains?
 
Another thing we could use for the ultimatum though it's probably a bad idea compared to the Decimator's affliction? Apocrypha. In 5(according to our sheet) days you will no longer be in complete control of your strategic faculties and you will not even realize it is happening.
 
Projectile said:
The recent Ringy influences on Hunger-the-manswordmantlering and the Renaissance Woman blurb might mean giving the Azure Ring to Gisena, even if possible, is probably a bad idea. Can she become the quintessence of humanity if she's also a Ring?
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Mhm. I think Hunger being the Ring is only a thing because of Accretion. Gisena doesn't have that.
 
Wolfy said:
Speaking of safety, consider that Magic-Defeating Stance doesn't improve our chances in upcoming combat and majority of it's effects are relevant afterwards; as such, instead of buying it we can save Arete to see what options we have for next vote and then decide how to spend our currency. Making informed decisions, how wonderful!
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I will support SAVEGANG, but this is wrong. The High Marshal outranks us but his Soul Evocation is based on order and hierarchy. Rihaku mentioned that it will help in the fight against us(probably some buff/debuff mechanic if you are lower Rank and not submit to hierarchy ).

[X] Combat
[X] No
 
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[X] Combat
[X] No

Back to my original vote now that Save has made a comeback! Flare already gives us plenty of diplomatic opportunities in the long term while still having good odds in this fight, so saving Arete for cooler things seems better to me.
 
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If Authority equals Asskicking, if we kick his bass do we gain authority over him? Other than in the obvious ways, that is.

Edit: Typo preserved for fish reasons
 
Sharkey_smt said:
I will support SAVEGANG, but this is wrong. The High Marshal outranks us but his Soul Evocation is based on order and hierarchy. Rihaku mentioned that it will help in the fight against us(probably some buff/debuff mechanic if you are lower Rank and not submit to hierarcy).

[X] Combat
[X] No
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I was under impression that our magic defense won't be very relevant against him, but I could be wrong.
 
On second thought, I don't think our currently suggested diplomatic strategies are likely to bear much fruit. Certainly if someone approached the US government and threatened to kill 10% of the populace every year unless their demands were satisfied, I would expect a massive military response over capitulation. This goes doubly so since our demand effectively disarms all of them.

Perhaps a better suggestion would be to surreptitiously seek out and bargain with those inner circle residents approaching their 1000th year. Some of them are bound to be dissatisfied with their impending death, and are also more likely to be powerful and experienced! Alternatively, we could simply look for those dissatisfied with the order of their society.

We could either bargain for the ring directly with these folks or simply start ennobling them: this would upset the balance of their carefully cultivated society, necessitating Immortal intervention. This intervention -- which looks like the authorities cracking down on a purely benevolent force in order to ensure their own people's timely demise -- would then probably be our best spot to try a revolution, if that's the direction we wanted to go.
 
So, I'm going to shill for Combat a little.

Rihaku said:
Also improves her rate of growth overall, making it feasible for Aeira to keep up with Hunger if properly supported and invested in.
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It would be really good to have another party member that can keep up with Hunger. I've heard people say they don't want to invest in another party member, however, consider this: a lot of the thread want to take Ennobling anyway, and a lot of the thread have expressed interest in Philosopher's Wreath. Just those two things, which we're not even taking specifically for Aeira, would represent a lot of increased power thrown her way. On top of the +Progression from Combat, that's enough to likely keep her relevant for a while.

This ensures our little magic ninja can, in fact, stay useful for the short-medium term. If we go into Pillars of Creation or Total Eclipse, or pick up something like Gardener's Hallow or Azure Moon, we can add further buffs on top of that.

The point is, investing in Aeira is not very onerous, requiring only Arete expenditures that we'd pick up anyway for different reasons. Heck, once we win the Temple we're getting free upgraded Ennobling no matter what. She's not an Arete sink, she just puts increased priority on Philosopher's Wreath and other picks that have some ally benefits.

And having another party member, who can keep up with Hunger and be useful, is very valuable. Some people have been wanting to take Stealth focus because that's literally her job - but she won't be able to do her job for long if she can't keep up with the relentlessly escalating pace of Hunger's adventures. Stealth makes her better at her job now, worse at it later. Now, if you just want to ditch her at some point, then Stealth is definitely the vote for you.

Business is a weird one, because it changes Aeira's role from "Adventuring Party member" to "stay-at-home supporter." That's a different calculus, if she's not going to go on adventures she doesn't need to scale very badly. Business is the pick for people who want to keep Aeira around, but don't want to invest in her or care more about her role as Letrizia's friend then her role as a scout/assassin.
 
It's becoming clearer and clearer that a large portion of the playerbase is actively suicidal and that Not Dying gang will have to rally around one of the Stances in order to defeat SAVE gang, so I am switching to Guile-Defeating Stance and calling in my marker with @Sharkey_smt to do the same.

[X] Stealth
[X] Guile-Defeating Stance
 
Unelemental said:
You know what would suck? If we started the Temple social conquest, managed to successfully subvert part of the population, were gearing up for the final stretch, and then suddenly the Azure Ring died on us or someone else saved it. Because the Crimson Flare blurb says 'if the Azure Ring is saved'. Now what happens to all those tasty Crimson advancements if we don't save it because it's no longer possible? That would be one way for Apocrypha to fuck up our day.
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Your ability to game the system is lacking. I think Rings are nearly indestructible but still two options
- If Ber saves the ring before us:
If this happens, we become the leader of the Temple and start a massive campaign to recapture it. After the Ring is captured we save it ourself, get the benefits and we go on our merry way
Hunger: I-it`s not like I wanted to save you myself, b-baka Ring.
Azure Ring: Dafuq
- If the Ring dies somehow:
Forbidden Art: P2W - collect money, buy the Lesser Wish and ask the Rihaku Accursed senpai to give us the Ring so we can save it.

formalAI said:
It's becoming clearer and clearer that a large portion of the playerbase is actively suicidal and that Not Dying gang will have to rally around one of the Stances in order to defeat SAVE gang, so I am switching to Guile-Defeating Stance and calling in my marker with @Sharkey_smt to do the same.
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Aknowledged. The 2k reaction will be done in several hours.

[X] Stealth
[X] Guile-Defeating Stance
 
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