Well Ring is something in between - we raise our rank to 5, and blood rank to 7. I would say that it is half power, half potential untill Azure is saved.
Still I get your point so we can agree that in order of greed it is Stance<Gisena<Ring.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Still I get your point so we can agree that in order of greed it is Stance<Gisena<Ring.
- Location
- Philippines
DK going balls to the walls with the markers. My dude.
Much as I want to shill for Crimson, (i'm already voting for it) A-DS has my heart in a vice grip.
Literally "All" Defeating. But that's just a 1v1 scenario, I think. Getting Gisena to Cursebearer Standards is fucking sweet too, and I'm blind to the Terrascape Arthur/Imperia issues since I wasn't there for it.
Crimson might still let us get Gramps and, generally, would make our lives easier for the Conquest section of our Indenture. Literally Uplifting entire societies. Literally creating super soldiers in less than a day. Fucking Blood Bending without the need of a full moon or the avatar state. Sure, it's locked behind the Lunar Ring. But we're going to free it anyway, and it won't even fight against us anymore. Actually becomes Crimson's bitch in terms of primacy.
Which, I guess??, the other options don't automatically do for us. A-DS/Gisena EFB trivializes sections and parts before the Ring Battle with Azure. Crimson just lets us win the ring battle against Azure. So that's something to consider as well, at least in terms of what Success actually means for the Temple arc.
Much as I want to shill for Crimson, (i'm already voting for it) A-DS has my heart in a vice grip.
Literally "All" Defeating. But that's just a 1v1 scenario, I think. Getting Gisena to Cursebearer Standards is fucking sweet too, and I'm blind to the Terrascape Arthur/Imperia issues since I wasn't there for it.
Crimson might still let us get Gramps and, generally, would make our lives easier for the Conquest section of our Indenture. Literally Uplifting entire societies. Literally creating super soldiers in less than a day. Fucking Blood Bending without the need of a full moon or the avatar state. Sure, it's locked behind the Lunar Ring. But we're going to free it anyway, and it won't even fight against us anymore. Actually becomes Crimson's bitch in terms of primacy.
Which, I guess??, the other options don't automatically do for us. A-DS/Gisena EFB trivializes sections and parts before the Ring Battle with Azure. Crimson just lets us win the ring battle against Azure. So that's something to consider as well, at least in terms of what Success actually means for the Temple arc.
Renaissance Woman's shiny, but remember that it seems so because it has to be that way in order to stay competitive with its counterparts, which compound on preexisting buffs.
Anyway, this is the point where the ability to cite patron-exclusive information would be convenient. Suffice to say I don't think subverting the Inner Temple in its entirety is viable with some means of replacing the utility they're getting from the imprisoned Ring, e.g. the carrot of blood-buffing. Individual members of their civilization with points of leverage like Avecarn's grandkids and desire for a peaceful life? Sure. But Letrizia can already offer that in the Empire without Gisena being extra-shiny.
As for us being able to do 'better', I would argue that yes, the option that gives us the power to solo the challenge we've beating our head against for an OOC month is worth its weight in gold. Half the appeal for me is just... taking the win. Not doing things the hard way, for once. Not sprinting off another cliff and then grinding enough Arete to sprout wings before we hit the ground. An actual vacation for the thread, rather than the one Hunger just got back from.
I'd be happy with Crimson Flare taking home the trophy, but it's a little early in the race to ditch my first choice and accepting a deal like that's not a good precedent to set. You're of course free to vote or not vote for whatever you wish, but I'm definitely not changing mine this minute. We'll see how the field looks in the morning.
Why, when Gisena has an enormous comparative advantage at tackling charisma-related tasks? Hunger has the Doom of the Tyrant and he'll need to spend those oh-so-precious picks playing catch up anyway.
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
Anything but Renaissance Woman.
Anything but Renaissance Woman.
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Well said, people talked that we took constant risks and wanted some safety. Here is the Safety with capital S. Pure power EFB, none of that promise or potential. If you wanted easy and safe win here is the option.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Some graces would make a good substitute for blood buffing as bribes to the civilization and Gisena's greater social focus should let us sell them on it more easily.
If poster's are worried that her social stats will control us I'm pointing out that we have tools available to us that Arthur didn't. This doesn't even make Gisena much stronger than us since we still have Cut Through our combat ability should be superior for the moment. It just lets her keep up.
Two brainstorming topics:
1. @Rihaku in the past you mentioned it would be theoretically possible for us (given our current capacity) to turn Edeldross into Findross. Also, in the Adept option, you mentioned the capacity to shape Edeldross into swords, spears, and boxing gloves. These aren't very useful shapes, given the complete inability of Edeldross to harm things. But, I wonder, would making a sword (or a boxing glove, given the fist bonus we got from Zweihander) out of Edeldross and channeling the power of Ruin through it create Findross? Because we know Edeldross is Findross minus ???, and we also know that whatever ??? is, it manages to make Findross killy which Edeldross isn't.
2. @LordOfMurder has me thinking about Renaissance Woman. I think Renaissance Woman actually makes taking Total Eclipse better for Hunger. Consider, True Quintessence is a pure potential power, which requires us to learn how to use it. But we know that Gisena's experiments can improve our learning speed (e.g. with Edeldross), so if she's already learned how to make True Quintessence generate Graces, she can help us do so. Plus, if we can both acquire resurrection Graces, then so long as one of us survives the whole team survives. Also, if we get said pure potential EFB, we're going to want Philosopher's Wreath to vastly accelerate our progression with it, and Philosopher's Wreath will also boost Gisena's progression. That's called Synergy, a power heretofore unknown to Hunger.
1. @Rihaku in the past you mentioned it would be theoretically possible for us (given our current capacity) to turn Edeldross into Findross. Also, in the Adept option, you mentioned the capacity to shape Edeldross into swords, spears, and boxing gloves. These aren't very useful shapes, given the complete inability of Edeldross to harm things. But, I wonder, would making a sword (or a boxing glove, given the fist bonus we got from Zweihander) out of Edeldross and channeling the power of Ruin through it create Findross? Because we know Edeldross is Findross minus ???, and we also know that whatever ??? is, it manages to make Findross killy which Edeldross isn't.
2. @LordOfMurder has me thinking about Renaissance Woman. I think Renaissance Woman actually makes taking Total Eclipse better for Hunger. Consider, True Quintessence is a pure potential power, which requires us to learn how to use it. But we know that Gisena's experiments can improve our learning speed (e.g. with Edeldross), so if she's already learned how to make True Quintessence generate Graces, she can help us do so. Plus, if we can both acquire resurrection Graces, then so long as one of us survives the whole team survives. Also, if we get said pure potential EFB, we're going to want Philosopher's Wreath to vastly accelerate our progression with it, and Philosopher's Wreath will also boost Gisena's progression. That's called Synergy, a power heretofore unknown to Hunger.
The point isn't just subverting them, that's a benefit that helps us divide their ruling class. The benefit would be that we could Ennoble lots of people and thus could give them something to fall back on once we take the Ring.
- Location
- The savanna.
One must remember the opportunity value. The All Defeating Stance and Crimson Flare will always be there. Both are good enough that we will get them eventually.
Renaisscance Woman would require us to wait until Gisena can get her 3rd coalescence, which could take a long time given she lacks the same progression scale that Hunger operates on.
We also know that Renaissance Woman Gisena would still be able to buff and improve our growth through Graces that would focus on buffing.
Remember the Grace options that Seram, another progression type, could take up when he became a sorcerer. Those were incredibly powerful and offered immense utility, and this is a Gisena who would be developing Graces at a level above that thanks to True Quintessence.
One of the main draws of Edeldross was the fact that it buffed our stats. Imagine what one who wields Findross's greatest manifestation could do.
Renaisscance Woman would require us to wait until Gisena can get her 3rd coalescence, which could take a long time given she lacks the same progression scale that Hunger operates on.
We also know that Renaissance Woman Gisena would still be able to buff and improve our growth through Graces that would focus on buffing.
Remember the Grace options that Seram, another progression type, could take up when he became a sorcerer. Those were incredibly powerful and offered immense utility, and this is a Gisena who would be developing Graces at a level above that thanks to True Quintessence.
One of the main draws of Edeldross was the fact that it buffed our stats. Imagine what one who wields Findross's greatest manifestation could do.
- Location
- Italy
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
I'd rather not bring Gisena to the level of an high-grade memetic hazard already, that's not really the party dynamic I'm looking for.
I'd rather not bring Gisena to the level of an high-grade memetic hazard already, that's not really the party dynamic I'm looking for.
Not really a major hazard for Hunger given Cursebearer grade mental and spiritual resistance and the fact that Evening Sky literally gives the ability to develop our charisma to matching levels.
More than likely the dynamic is the Velvet Glove to Hunger's Iron Fist.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
She's already a low grade memetic hazard and so are we, they were talking about it this update.
- Location
- Pindorama
We don't need it in it's entirety though, just key members; offer them the support of the Empire through House Artriez if necessary. Something they will accept much easier given supernatural levels of appearance!
I don't know how you can say that taking Renaissance Woman will have Gisena totally overpower us and overshadow our narrative importance, and then say it won't be enough for the Temple and we need an Pure Power EFB, which is it? It either makes us safe or it doesn't. Since it said that Infiltration will be come trivial, I do think it is enough to take on the Temple socially. It's enough to take on Avercarn right now despite the Rank difference! I think that forming our own coup once inside will be quite easy, especially since he have Shadowcord for intrigue stuff. They can be quite a potent duo!
How unfortunate. I guess you missed your chance.
[X] Renaissance Woman
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
Getting her to coalescence won't take too long. We have Eldeldross, we know there is a way to produce Findross from that. So it's only a matter of time.
Since fighting Vanreir, we've gained the following powerups.
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Uttermost (4 picks)
[ ](Taken 3x times) Vigor Itself - The primordial might and glory of Blood resplendent. Let all who witness its form tremble, and be subject. Adds [++Might, +Charisma] to the bonuses from Quickening, subject to the usual conditions. Can be taken up to 3 times.
[ ] Fierce Quickening - The absurd violence of Blood unleashed. Let all that falls within its dominion be spilled, if it be in service to the Ringbearer. Adds [++Agility, +Wits] to the bonuses from Quickening, subject to the usual conditions. Can be taken up to 3 times.
[ ] Cut Through - 25 Arete
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor [+++++Strength] Power of Ruin now scales upwards depending on your Strength.
[ ] Edeldross
[ ] Edeldross Adept
AND
we've got another EFB this turn.
So let's assume we take the most powerful EFB on offer here, the All-Defeating Stance. What does that get us?
A defining advancement. ~60 arete. A dozen picks. Two EFBs, one of them a pure power EFB. "only moderate difficulty".
This temple is insane.
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Uttermost (4 picks)
[ ](Taken 3x times) Vigor Itself - The primordial might and glory of Blood resplendent. Let all who witness its form tremble, and be subject. Adds [++Might, +Charisma] to the bonuses from Quickening, subject to the usual conditions. Can be taken up to 3 times.
[ ] Fierce Quickening - The absurd violence of Blood unleashed. Let all that falls within its dominion be spilled, if it be in service to the Ringbearer. Adds [++Agility, +Wits] to the bonuses from Quickening, subject to the usual conditions. Can be taken up to 3 times.
[ ] Cut Through - 25 Arete
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor [+++++Strength] Power of Ruin now scales upwards depending on your Strength.
[ ] Edeldross
[ ] Edeldross Adept
AND
we've got another EFB this turn.
So let's assume we take the most powerful EFB on offer here, the All-Defeating Stance. What does that get us?
A defining advancement. ~60 arete. A dozen picks. Two EFBs, one of them a pure power EFB. "only moderate difficulty".
This temple is insane.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
If we successfully infiltrate socially maybe we can stay for a couple of days to give Gisena time to develop some Graces. They probably have some really nice fishing spots in the inner temple.
Ah but by the same measure getting Rennaiscance Woman now would allow for rapid progression because all that time and effort spent on Gisena getting stronger could instead be time spent developing supporting Graces to help Hunger in his journey.
And all that effort studying and developing Edeldross to help Gisena could be spent on other avenues such as getting stronger and fighting more opponents!
Edeldross itself is only capable of replicating 1/10th of all Graces. And True Quintessence that could get around that is competing with Pillars of Creation for first EFB for the evening sky.
- Location
- Italy
They were also talking how that's making them more inhuman little by little (even if in my opinion the issue is more the isolation and detachment brought by social steamrolling everything without trying to than any loss of humanity in itself) and while I understand it's an unfortunate consequence of our circumstances, I'd rather have the issue build itself rather then have it skyrocket the very next update.
Gisena will still Coalescence and be more than capable enough that she can aid us in the Temple, at least if we get Crimson Flare so we also increase the potency of her blood buffs (and those of our other allies). If we get All-Defeating Stance instead we'll just turn this in a slaughterfest and I've got other sorts of issues with that (especially now that an attempt at not ruining the lives of an entire civilization can be made).
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
You know, it seems possible that Avecarn may actually be one of the Inner Temple's best?
It's like, he's a ranking general in their armed forces with Authority Equals Asskicking personal powers. He can't be weak by their standards. And the fact that the Inner Temple was concerned enough to send an agent specifically to kill us, rather than just telling the Middle Temple to swarm us to compensate for the fact that Vanrier is one of their strongest and failed... Well, they wouldn't have sent someone who was a weakling by their standards.
It's like, he's a ranking general in their armed forces with Authority Equals Asskicking personal powers. He can't be weak by their standards. And the fact that the Inner Temple was concerned enough to send an agent specifically to kill us, rather than just telling the Middle Temple to swarm us to compensate for the fact that Vanrier is one of their strongest and failed... Well, they wouldn't have sent someone who was a weakling by their standards.
You don't say.
We were told it's a trap. Yet it turned out to be a trap, what a twist! Not that I have much room to complain after voting for it, but I hope I have enough self-awareness to realize what an insane decision it was in retrospect. Though we'll only know for sure if we can peek into the alternate timeline where we didn't choose Temple and then skip forward to see the consequences of leaving it alone.
Intelligent decision-making and sound strategy, that's us! We're, like, professionals at this.
Apocrypha: He wants to do what now?
Apocrypha: Alright, I'm outta here.
'How bad could it possibly be'
What else needs to be said?
I don't know, overawing a teenager into a shy mess isn't a terribly inhuman feat.
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
Or because Gisena can keep up with us for an long while, it might just become more optimal in the short-medium term to spend our effort on developing her instead so that she can deal with all the shit in the temple and beyond for us.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
If we get good enough at it though it ceases to matter, just look at the Accursed. He's got so many stats it boggles the mind and even with all the curses he's still recognizably human and doesn't melt your brain just to look at.
Crimson Flare isn't even guaranteed to beat Avecarn though we might just die or have to run away before even getting there.
Buffed Gisena can just social steamroll her way in opening up more options for how to deal with the ring civilization other than murdering them and taking their stuff.
Crimson has 'very good odds of survival' and some of the best healing.