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A Simple Transaction I

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Orm Embar said:
Two Hunger-level combatants, when Hunger as he is only avoids getting curbstomped by Avecarn because of Cut Through? I guarantee you they've got stronger combatants, other trump cards to deploy. And then there's the matter of the Council themselves, who aren't going to roll over and die for a pretty face. Nor do physical stats superior to Hunger's own necessarily make Gisena a combatant with his lethality. She doesn't have the Forebear's Blade, for one. All the options 'improve our chances massively', they're EFBs, that's what they do. But we can do better than blowing literally all our Arete on buffing her.
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Can we really? Infiltration is confirmed trivial with it; so we can easily buy the necessary time; with our Curses mitigated to boot! And with her social power, we can turn them to our side; they may have counter-measures, but no system is flawless! Especially we can already steamroll Avecarn socially here; that's a lot of their power! Plus, getting her Progression and three EFBs massively improves her in the long-term, making her an even more powerful asset.

Again, we can't solo them; but no all victories are realized through physicality! We'd be in an incredibly advantageous position.
Orm Embar said:
Also, consider how Gisena shining with ineffable radiance will compromise the banter people seem to enjoy so much. In this very update she comments on how charisma creates distance between party members. Aeira can barely speak to her as it is, the poor girl. How are we supposed to have family dinners when Letrizia's paralyzed with slack-jawed awe? Not only is beauty an attack, it's an indiscriminate one. Perhaps she can do as Skyveil did and invent a means of protecting viewers from herself, but we can just... not have this problem in the first place and preserve the current dynamic.
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We can take her; we aren't Arthur. She is far from Imperia either; considering what attracted me to her was her purity of vision and not the descriptions of her feet; even if you may think otherwise. (Not that there's anything wrong with Arthur; but you do seem to want to avoid him, so.) I just don't see the worst case scenario you fear.

But I'll tell you what; let's make a Very Simple Transaction; a vote for a vote. Vote for Flare and I will remove my vote for Woman. If you refuse, I will remove my vote for Flare and vote just for Renaissance Woman instead. If you accept, we both do our best to argue for Flare.

This deal is in your favor, Flare is already in second place; It's possible Stance will be eliminated and you will then have to vote for Flare anyway. But with this, you at least get a vote off of Renaissance Woman, plus whatever the worth of my argumentation so far. It can be quite a a deal. So I recommend you consider it strongly.
 
LordOfMurder said:
Pick Renaissance Woman! If we die Gisena can just resurrect us!
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The potential to develop all the Graces of the Maiden through a metasingularity of findross - which is what Renaissance Woman represents - doesn't guarantee the actual acquisition of those abilities. It will quickly become tiresome if we have to argue against a steel-woman version of Gisena in possession of every capability this process could theoretically confer. Graces are also not infallible: Reversion has a 1-year time limit, Alabaster's resurrection permanently depleted her essence with every use, and so on.

More to the point, I think we should be very cautious of arguments that treat Hunger's death as a non-issue, because that's exactly the kind of recklessness that'll give us a bad end in the epilogue. Look how he currently treats his Second Stage, do we want to incentivize that behavior by giving him an additional cushion of safety?
 
That kind of relies on her not dying alongside us from whatever killed Hunger and not being hunted down afterwards. Also questionable whether she retains Retinue's advantage if Hunger is dead, so her speed of improvement would slow down drastically.
 
BrainInAJar said:
Can we really? Infiltration is confirmed trivial with it; so we can easily buy the necessary time; with our Curses mitigated to boot!

We can take her; we aren't Arthur. She is far from Imperia either; considering what attracted me to her was her purity of vision and not the descriptions of her feet; even if you may think otherwise. (Not that there's anything wrong with Arthur; but you do seem to want to avoid him, so.) I just don't see the worst case scenario you fear.
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The full stage curse mitigation for Apocryphal is actually really useful since we're about to start proccing it again.

Arthur didn't have the benefit of being a progression cursebearer. Gisena will have higher social stats than use for a while like she did at the beginning of the quest but if it becomes a problem we can just pick some cha options.

Orm Embar said:
The potential to develop all the Graces of the Maiden through a metasingularity of findross - which is what Renaissance Woman represents - doesn't guarantee the actual acquisition of those abilities. It will quickly become tiresome if we have to argue against a steel-woman version of Gisena in possession of every capability this process could theoretically confer. Graces are also not infallible: Reversion has a 1-year time limit, Alabaster's resurrection permanently depleted her essence with every use, and so on.

More to the point, I think we should be very cautious of arguments that treat Hunger's death as a non-issue, because that's exactly the kind of recklessness that'll give us a bad end in the epilogue. Look how he currently treats his Second Stage, do we want to incentivize that behavior by giving him an additional cushion of safety?
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Reversion was the high sorcerer grace not the maiden version. Given True Quintessence grants Gisena the capability to develop any grace the Maiden had arguing against her eventually having all those powers is just the reality of the option. It's true she can only develop so many at a time but it shouldn't take to long for her to pick up 1 or 2 given this options paints her as a supergenius who can compete with the power of progression using raw intellect. The retinue component means she'll be with us for a long time and will have time to pick up plenty of utility effects which can help shore up areas where we're weak.

Of course we shouldn't be reckless about dying or rely on resurrection as a backup but it's obviously better to be alive than dead so having a failsafe to depend on is nice.
 
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Consider that under Crimson Flare the possibility of combat against Avecarn. Even in the worse case scenario of a fight against him we will still probably survive and the Ring of Hunger doesn't require we actually kill him just a challenge with huge stakes. With the lowest Arete cost, people could probably generate enough additional Arete between this post and the next one we could obtain up to 4 pick advancements and still have 7 Arete+ in reserve to buy.

Editted for grammar
 
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Sharkey_smt said:
It is 10 million people. Our task for the Geass is to conquer the Human Sphere and that is thousand of worlds. Even if one thousand people from each world fight us (pretty sure there will be more) the casualties from our conquest will be greater. We need to our resolve to be like steel and internalise part of the famous quote from Stalin - 'million is a statistic' because otherwise we would never be able to conquer the Human Sphere.
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I am not really seeing the rationale behind the "we will probably kill more people in the future, so might as well start murdering people now" reasoning. Decisions like that might be necessary, but they are often not, and so should be far from the first resort.
 
Unelemental said:
That kind of relies on her not dying alongside us from whatever killed Hunger and not being hunted down afterwards. Also questionable whether she retains Retinue's advantage if Hunger is dead, so her speed of improvement would slow down drastically.
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It's fluffed as matching him due to her own intelligence so I don't see why she'd lose it. Gisena also has an emergency "escape this universe now" button that should become much easier for her to use when she's ascended to the level of the maiden.
 
[ ] Shardcraft - The art of broken and whole, the embrace of the moment inbetween. This casting system derives power from the shattering, from the acknowledgement that the parts are more than their sum. Tear suns asunder, rip power from the bosom of the hidden ones, and unmake the whole. Welcome to the Fragmented, young Shardcaster. You will find your kin here.

*Become Broken. This is a metaphysical expenditure that requires the loss of something deeply important to you, and must be a deliberate sacrifice. It can be an arm, it can be a teddy bear, it can be a relationship. All that matters is that you care. It may never come back to you, so long as you draw breath.
*Gain an intuitive affinity for how something can best be broken. This affinity becomes stronger as you yourself grow in power.
*Uses a resource known as Shards to generate effects. Shards are taken from the objects you break, and the nature of the effect varies depending on the object broken.
*A broken toy might grant the ability to summon a spectral guardian in the form of that toy, a corpse might grant the quickness and intellect they once had in their life.
*These effects quickly grow in power, allowing you to break larger and larger things. A routed army might grant permanent knowledge over military tactics, or the abiity to summon a terracotta army in their likeness. You can see how these abilities can be used to shatter even more things, resulting in an endless cascade of power compounding on power.
*One day, you might find yourself with enough power to just reach out into the fabric of universe... and just shatter it. You will know what to do by then.
 
[X] Forbear's Blade: All-Defeating Stance
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare

Renaissance Woman is the sole option so far in the quest that would make me truly salty. Fuck that shit. I am not interested in the slightest in the repeat of Terrascape.

I am fine with taking it later, but the narrative will get badly warped in an unfun way if we do it now.
 
Talace said:
[ ] Shardcraft - The art of broken and whole, the embrace of the moment inbetween. This casting system derives power from the shattering, from the acknowledgement that the parts are more than their sum. Tear suns asunder, rip power from the bosom of the hidden ones, and unmake the whole. Welcome to the Fragmented, young Shardcaster. You will find your kin here.

*Become Broken. This is a metaphysical expenditure that requires the loss of something deeply important to you, and must be a deliberate sacrifice. It can be an arm, it can be a teddy bear, it can be a relationship. All that matters is that you care. It may never come back to you, so long as you draw breath.
*Gain an intuitive affinity for how something can best be broken. This affinity becomes stronger as you yourself grow in power.
*Uses a resource known as Shards to generate effects. Shards are taken from the objects you break, and the nature of the effect varies depending on the object broken.
*A broken toy might grant the ability to summon a spectral guardian in the form of that toy, a corpse might grant the quickness and intellect they once had in their life.
*These effects quickly grow in power, allowing you to break larger and larger things. A routed army might grant permanent knowledge over military tactics, or the abiity to summon a terracotta army in their likeness. You can see how these abilities can be used to shatter even more things, resulting in an endless cascade of power compounding on power.
*One day, you might find yourself with enough power to just reach out into the fabric of universe... and just shatter it. You will know what to do by then.
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Very cool, thanks!
 
DkArthas said:
[X] Forbear's Blade: All-Defeating Stance
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare

Renaissance Woman is the sole option so far in the quest that would make me truly salty. Fuck that shit. I am not interested in the slightest in the repeat of Terrascape.

I am fine with taking it later, but the narrative will get badly warped in an unfun way if we do it now.
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Terrascape was about doing whatever someone more competent than us wanted. This would make Gisena an equal to us essentially. She'd be better at social while we're better at combat.

It also explicitly fulfulls the objectives of the thread in taking Gisena in the first place. It provides tons of curse mitigation and let's her take care of social so we don't have to worry about Tyrant's Doom. This quest can't go the way of terrascape because we actually have to be in charge of the human sphere for it to count for our Geas.
 
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Orm Embar said:
More to the point, I think we should be very cautious of arguments that treat Hunger's death as a non-issue, because that's exactly the kind of recklessness that'll give us a bad end in the epilogue. Look how he currently treats his Second Stage, do we want to incentivize that behavior by giving him an additional cushion of safety?
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I dunno.

The penalty for dying and relying on his wraith form right now is to wait 24 hours and have Gisena smug at him a few times.

The penalty for dying and relying on Super!Gisena to resurrect him with Graces would be to wait... I dunno, probably longer than that. And, more to the point, to have massively enhanced Gisena smugging at him with the smugness power of a goddess for years.

Do not fear Hunger becoming blase about such a prospect. No man could face such a fate lightly.
 
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LordOfMurder said:
The full stage curse mitigation for Apocryphal is actually really useful since we're about to start proccing it again.
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We get half stage with All-Defeating

Also Gisena EFB is potential based, it will not magically come with all Graces locked and loaded. Rihaku confirmed that it is the greediest option.
All-Defeating is immediate power, pure and simple.
Ring is coming online only after we save Azure ring
Gisena EFB can be bought later when we are not so vulnerable.

agumentic said:
I am not really seeing the rationale behind the "we will probably kill more people in the future, so might as well start murdering people now" reasoning. Decisions like that might be necessary, but they are often not, and so should be far from the first resort.
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I never said "start murdering now". Just pointed out that we will destroy their way of life if we free the Ring and we would probably not be able to save all of them.
 
Sharkey_smt said:
We get half stage with All-Defeating

Also Gisena EFB is potential based, it will not magically come with all Graces locked and loaded. Rihaku confirmed that it is the greediest option.
All-Defeating is immediate power, pure and simple.
Ring is coming online only after we save Azure ring
Gisena EFB can be bought later when we are not so vulnerable.


I never said "start murdering now". Just pointed out that we will destroy their way of life if we free the Ring and we would probably not be able to save all of them.
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Half stage is good but a full stage that gets better over time is more valuable. I know she wouldn't come with all graces ready but she only has to research one or two, say a resurrection or empowering Grace, in order for it to be significantly valuable in the short term.

When did he say it was the greediest option? It also can't be bought except at a time when Gisena is having a breakthrough. Which means we'd need to get a Gisena Buff vote through first and then have a spare 28 arete on hand. I doubt that's going to happen anytime soon if ever.
 
I am willing to give out half a dozen vote marker with no veto to anyone willing to vote for anything other than Renaissance Woman.
 
[X] Renaissance Woman

I think the Terrascape fears are unfounded, Hunger and Gisena are not Arthur and Imperlia.

Of the other 2 Crimson Flare holds no interest to me, would much rather take Ruling Ring. The Stance is really really good, but I like the idea of going down all 3 paths.
 
LordOfMurder said:
When did he say it was the greediest option? It also can't be bought except at a time when Gisena is having a breakthrough. Which means we'd need to get a Gisena Buff vote through first and then have a spare 28 arete on hand. I doubt that's going to happen anytime soon if ever.
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He said that we should consider a less greedy option which I basically translate to Ring or Stance.
Rihaku said:
Don't be overtaken by the apparent value of Renaissance Woman into thinking it's strictly better than the alternatives! It is good, but building on a stronger base means the other options are better in many situations, and True Quintessence takes a while to come online. Considering how little time has passed IC, you may want to consider a less greedy option. Even a Gisena with great stats and Absolute-tier Nullity has problems she can't solve, like Armaments with deployed Shrouds! Conversely, Crimson Flare and All-Defeating Stance help Hunger acquire more power quicker. The Progression chassis should not be underestimated.
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I don`t consider Stance to be the greediest option(Arete cost notwithstanding) because it provides the power without promise. Your decision relies on Gisena managing to get the Graces that we need in a day with a magic system that she have never used and WoG said it takes some time.
 
Honestly, Renaissance Woman looks pretty good to me even without the Graces. Curse mitigation, ultra-empowered Nullity, memetic hazard social skills. Stuff like that.
 
Sharkey_smt said:
He said that we should consider a less greedy option which I basically translate to Ring or Stance.

I don`t consider Stance to be the greediest option(Arete cost notwithstanding) because it provides the power without promise. Your decision relies on Gisena managing to get the Graces that we need in a day with a magic system that she have never used and WoG said it takes some time.
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Note that the example of a problem she can't solve is an Armament with a deployed shroud. Not being able to beat a rank 10 giant robot is not indicative of a bad option. I'd say the greediest option here is actually crimson flare since it doesn't conclusively even beat this old man and we don't get most of it's benefit until getting the ring.
 
LordOfMurder said:
When did he say it was the greediest option? It also can't be bought except at a time when Gisena is having a breakthrough. Which means we'd need to get a Gisena Buff vote through first and then have a spare 28 arete on hand. I doubt that's going to happen anytime soon if ever.
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That being said, that's apparently pretty flexible. The Gisena buff vote was what, 7, 8 votes ago? I've lost track.
 
Also for those that worry about it taking a long time for Gisena to develop her graces, remember that she will get Progression at 25% of Hunger's own rate. Even at a quarter strength that will be fairly rapid growth in capability.

And for those worrying about an Imperia situation that is not a situation. This elevates Gisena to being able to be a peer to Hunger for a long time to come, possibly for the scope of this quest but no where near Hunger's boss. Note that Gisena is following Hunger's lead, even before he outscaled her.

That does not mean that Gisena will be Hunger's boss. Doom of the Tyrant Precludes that and for all that she gets a potential time EFB we still have a growth rate 4x faster than her own and that is not including any other EFB that we acquire along the way.

And it bares repeating. Remember that she is one of our lesser Remittances. So she is on the same scale as Hunger Ring and the Forebear's blade. Making her relevant is the same sort of investment that we did on the others.
 
For people who still plan to get Ruling Ring, keep in mind that Crimson Flare frontloads some of its cost to put us at an advantage during the contest of primacy. Honestly, Crimson Ring is arguably just as good as All-Defeating Stance and with a lot more utility, it just gates a good portion of the advancements for after we obtain the Azure Ring.

And while that's certainly an issue in itself, considering it reveals most of its power only after we've reached our goal, it's also the option that costs us less Arete so that we'd still be able to get a 7 Arete option after defeating Avecarn. At that point, rather than a Stance I'm personally hoping for a Praxis upgrade, A King Stand Alone would be especially useful in my opinion, since it gives a cap to how much enemies can benefit from a higher Rank and by boosting the Praxis defensive utility in general. Plus, "you may treat conflict as a succession of one-and-one duels" would be absolutely egregious after we just defeated one of their strongest fighters!
 
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Sigh; can we stop with the Terrascape memes? Get some perspective here. Arthur was not Imperia's doddering slave and we had many opportunities to go against her wishes. The appeal of Imperia was more than just being described as impossibly beautiful and competent, because just saying those things doesn't actually make them so for the readers; you are not in fact being magically affected. The incredibly vast differences between Imperia and Gisena would necessarily lead to a completely different relationship; something so obvious to me I'm shocked it needs to be stated. This is fearmongering of the greatest degree.

Renaissance Woman will not make Hunger irrelevant; it will not diminish his pursuit of Vengeance, it will not make him forget Catherine or make him hate fishing or cause any other alteration that would make him lose himself. It's those things that make Hunger who his is, not his relative distance to a supernaturally beautiful woman. Gisena has been nothing but a loyal friend despite the massive gulf in power; and that we aren't willing to do the same for her is disappointing. We should view this fairly and be pleased at how much potential she has, not be suddenly paralyzed with fear, trembling because of someone who literally never harmed us and only ever helped us, even if it meant wounds and pain. This is actually kind of sad.

If you are worried we will have the same relationship with Gisena that we did with Imperia, don't; they are in fact different people! Shocking, I know.
 
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