Also, Rings aren't people. Even if it got tortured out of its mind and would feel supremely grateful for the rescue (inasmuch as it can), the contest of primacy seems like something integral to the Rings' very existence. For it, the rescue and the contest might be entirely separate things. Hell, giving up the contest without fighting might be worse than what it had experienced so far for all we know. It begged for death and offered rewards but notably didn't offer to submit to our Ring in its Call.
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A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
I think that there is fundamental misunderstanding at work here. Like, going on about "but Silver does stuff" ignores elephant in the room - it doesn't matter if Silver is better than Flare(lol) or that it could have better advancement paths(ahahahahaha), no.
What matters is that on top of being perfectly serviceable EFB, Flare directly deals with every single thing that is an issue right now. Let's count them up, shall we:
And that's it, really. It doesn't matter what kind of shiny Silver is because it doesn't offer the same kind of "solve all our current issues" button.
What matters is that on top of being perfectly serviceable EFB, Flare directly deals with every single thing that is an issue right now. Let's count them up, shall we:
- Being a Ranklet? Directly dealt with
- Healing Verse? Directly dealt with
- Letrizia's lifespan issues? Directly dealt with
- Not being able to fight with the likes of High Marshal? Directly dealt with
- Contest of primacy with Azure? Directly dealt with
- Don't want to pass on Pillars because we took another Evening EFB? Directly dealt with
- Decimation lowering age of our population and friends? Directly dealt with
- Wounds? Directly dealt with(assuming that it being superior to Ruling Ring counts for that, either way)
And that's it, really. It doesn't matter what kind of shiny Silver is because it doesn't offer the same kind of "solve all our current issues" button.
If we want a chance at convincing the population then the important pick isn't Silver vs Flare it's Selune vs the dudes fanatical/competent enough to see Hunger for the implacable enemy he is. We can easily make up the 4 arete during inner temple politics updates to get one of the EFBs in time for the climax*.
*I favour Flare for the primacy, blood powers and refunds at that point as we can keep up charisma with low arete picks and getting our harem to talk for us but Silver is fine.
*I favour Flare for the primacy, blood powers and refunds at that point as we can keep up charisma with low arete picks and getting our harem to talk for us but Silver is fine.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
No one seems to be anti magic. They are anti magic we're going to take forever to figure out.
As we clearly aren't intending to push for enough arete to buy Flare before the next encounter I must adjust plans and pray we don't do something like this again. Choosing infiltration was unwise.
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
[X] Selune vi Tries [Cost: 4 Arete]
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ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
Argh, can't you let me go mad with power for like ten minutes?
Ah well. Dreams of killing warrior dead by overloading magic options were stupid anyway. Back to taking the actual best thing that synergizes with our build.
[X] Evening Sky: Silver of Evening - 25 Arete (1 pick)
- Location
- a place
That's a difficult question. Considering the sheer utility of Edeldross and the fact that 10% magnitude increases are apparently logarithmic in how hard they are to get, I would say I'd definitely want it before getting eclipse, but that's more difficult to say with Pillars, but I'd wager not, though Pillars is complicated by how slow in game time progresses and needing to be at a certain time to enter it. I will say that I think the added ability to help fulfill our mission and suborn a magical society of 10 million while gaining access to another ring is one of the few things I think would be worth putting off pillars for.
I know you were. The plans I was referring too were saving the ring. I was saying that as long as we save the ring, we will get those refunded regardless of whether Flare is our second or our third EFB. If we take Silver first, our plans of saving the ring would be easier then if we took Flare due to the power it gives us, whereas Flare's best abilites only kick in until after we've carried out those plans.
The problem being that most of those benefits don't take effect until after we save the ring, which a number of posters think will be a non-trivial task.
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The biggest problem with this approach is that it kinda ignores the dangers? The people in charge of the Temple - the Council and whoever is above them - aren't idiots, and they are not weak, or they wouldn't be in charge. When the new guy with a Ring of Power starts mingling with known malcontents and dissenters, they will know. The Apocryphal Curse will kindly help them. And if they do, I am not sure that half of an EFB and a number of utility abilities will be enough to face the central power of the Inner Temple.
To deal with that, we would need one of three things, none of which Flare gives:
1. Stats and abilities to not get caught - Charisma, Manipulation, Intelligence, Stealth, etc.
2. All-purpose Rank to bend reality in our favor.
3. Overwhelming power to Cut Through, even if found out.
On the other hand, Silver gives us 2 out of 3.
- Location
- Brazil
Stay on target! Don't let the self-defeating stance affect you!
Maragas
Nothing to see here.
- Location
- Tree House
I think we both saying Flare/Sliver will make it easier than the Sliver/Flare. Going in circles.
[X] Evening Sky: Silver of Evening
Going with this for now, I may switch later if I end up feeling it we are More unlikely to see flare again than silver (though if we don't get it now it will probably be a harder sell later between pillars, eclipse, and whatever else evening sky has not to mention other 25picks).
Just wanted to say that en Edeldross enhancement does bring something to the negotiating table with research, especially if we can eventually puzzle out how to make findross, though that is probably unrealistic.
Going with this for now, I may switch later if I end up feeling it we are More unlikely to see flare again than silver (though if we don't get it now it will probably be a harder sell later between pillars, eclipse, and whatever else evening sky has not to mention other 25picks).
Just wanted to say that en Edeldross enhancement does bring something to the negotiating table with research, especially if we can eventually puzzle out how to make findross, though that is probably unrealistic.
It's actually an easy question to answer: the more an option invests in immediate power, the less potential it has. Ofc it's not quite that trivial and can only help make rough judgements, since there are such things as different costs and synergies with our build, but an option that gives almost no immediate power like Eclipse or Pillars has quite a bit more potential than one that improves our stats so greatly like Silver. And they have quite a bit of synergy themselves, Eclipse with our Edeldross and Pillars with our Progression in general.
And sure, it would be great to get Flare, then Silver, then Ring, then Pillars, then... we sadly don't have that much Arete and have to pick and choose what we get first. Saving for an EFB is an onerous task and not something we can expect to do easily.
Inserted tally
I mean, of course it's not trivial - but it's something that we'd do either way, so it's not like it matters. Meanwhile, Flare still gives us ton of frontloaded power; immediate 0.7 Rank(which is equivalent of completely short term focused Definite Advancement) and then additional 2 Rank on top of that, which would make much more powerful.
Note that we go from rank 4.3 blood casting to rank 7 blood casting, for a total increase of 2.7. This covers hilarious range of effects; our and Gisena's buff, enemy debuffs, Verse healing, blood sense etc.
And, of course, it cuts both ways - while some stuff(mostly long term stuff that are not relevant for clearing Temple anyway) requires us to win the contest of primacy, at the same time this option means that we don't need to care about contest of primacy. While it remains something Silver has to worry about, we are free to put our energy to solving more important issues.
So, without further ado, do press "solve our issues" button.
TwistedJester
Tired Lurker King
- Location
- Hell
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
[X] Gondar Hrsillimas
Wolfy has convinced me of the merits of the Flare.
[X] Gondar Hrsillimas
Wolfy has convinced me of the merits of the Flare.
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Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hmm.
Silver of the Evening -> Both Preeminences -> S A V E 24 Arete -> Ruling Ring -> Special Advancement -> Once and Future.
That would mean, even with the worst case scenario of an Armament Ringbearer, we'd have the Rank to match up and dumping all of our picks straight into Edeldross and Blood STATS might let our baseline attributes compare as well due to the compounding effects of both. From there, add in a few Praxis techniques and we could probably beat this Geas task no problem. This plan would require a hell of a lot of spending discipline though.
[X] Evening Sky: Silver of Evening
[X] Gondar Hrsillimas
Eh, worth a shot.
Silver of the Evening -> Both Preeminences -> S A V E 24 Arete -> Ruling Ring -> Special Advancement -> Once and Future.
That would mean, even with the worst case scenario of an Armament Ringbearer, we'd have the Rank to match up and dumping all of our picks straight into Edeldross and Blood STATS might let our baseline attributes compare as well due to the compounding effects of both. From there, add in a few Praxis techniques and we could probably beat this Geas task no problem. This plan would require a hell of a lot of spending discipline though.
[X] Evening Sky: Silver of Evening
[X] Gondar Hrsillimas
Eh, worth a shot.
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ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
@DkArthas I'm willing to take you up on that earlier offer. Voting Selune if you vote Silver of Evening.
[X] Evening Sky: Silver of Evening - 25 Arete (1 pick)
[X] Selune vi Tries [Cost: 4 Arete]
The delusion effect would explain why I somehow thought that I could reduce warrior stuff to a sideshow and create a pure mage build by taking Crimson Flare and Total Eclipse, despite the non sequitur that represents.
[X] Evening Sky: Silver of Evening - 25 Arete (1 pick)
[X] Selune vi Tries [Cost: 4 Arete]
The delusion effect would explain why I somehow thought that I could reduce warrior stuff to a sideshow and create a pure mage build by taking Crimson Flare and Total Eclipse, despite the non sequitur that represents.
- Location
- Pindorama
I'd much prefer Crimson Flare because the only sources of boosted Progression we have are Pillars and Ruling Ring, and people are really scared of the latter. Since we should want to get Trinity as soon as possible, Crimson into Pillars is much better to me than Sliver into ???; and if we can get Pillars first so we can benefit from better Progression; even better. Sliver is certainly immediately better but it's also competing with the other Evening Sky options thanks to Trinity; and I believe Pillars to be much better for us in the long-term.
Conversely, we basically have no other safe Ring EFBs available; Ruling is considered too risky and we have never seen Dead but Dreaming again. The former would give the increased Progression we'd miss out on from not having Pillars, but again, the thread considers it a large risk. So Flare is better in this regard.
Not to mention having available makes us much safer since it doesn't require picks.
Also none of the above matters if we don't have any Arete to spend, so I really advise against picking Selune from a power perspective. We can't just keep gambling that we can make the Arete back; we have to keep saving so we can be prepared to push. Anything that makes that more feasible is welcome to me.
Given the sudden burst Selune had; those who don't want to spend Arete should probably consolidate into one of the remaning options. Going for Avecarn because apathy is greatly advantageous to us; we don't need to convince him per se, we just need to convince him that going along with us is safer than actually fighting, which is easy because we want to be escorted right into the heart of enemy territory! How convenient. No risk of shooting our companions like with Grondar, just a perfectly reasonable discussion!
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
[X] High Marshall Avecarn
Conversely, we basically have no other safe Ring EFBs available; Ruling is considered too risky and we have never seen Dead but Dreaming again. The former would give the increased Progression we'd miss out on from not having Pillars, but again, the thread considers it a large risk. So Flare is better in this regard.
Not to mention having available makes us much safer since it doesn't require picks.
Also none of the above matters if we don't have any Arete to spend, so I really advise against picking Selune from a power perspective. We can't just keep gambling that we can make the Arete back; we have to keep saving so we can be prepared to push. Anything that makes that more feasible is welcome to me.
Given the sudden burst Selune had; those who don't want to spend Arete should probably consolidate into one of the remaning options. Going for Avecarn because apathy is greatly advantageous to us; we don't need to convince him per se, we just need to convince him that going along with us is safer than actually fighting, which is easy because we want to be escorted right into the heart of enemy territory! How convenient. No risk of shooting our companions like with Grondar, just a perfectly reasonable discussion!
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
[X] High Marshall Avecarn
Avecarn is considered "overwhelming power" to them, so we are almost there already! Not to mention once we start our efforts in the earnest we will also weaken them in turn; making our conquest easier. I do think Crimson Flare would give us the power to Cut Through here. And it would improve our blood-buffing, which is 2 Arete away from giving Charisma. PLus the utility effects would be great for actually turning people to our side. Who doesn't want to live 4 times as long, for example? We'd be able to provide all of that once we get the Ring.
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They're in charge because they lucked out with a Ring and built a system that puts them in charge. Their whole society is structured in such a way as to make things as easy for them as possible and avoid complications. It will be dangerous, because there wasn't really a path of safety towards the goal of grabbing the Ring, but we'll have much less to offer them if we don't take Crimson. I would prefer to rely on concrete benefits to subvert people. We don't need to be a memetic hazard to convince them that our cause will benefit them.
- Location
- Brazil
Rihaku has previously stated that Silver is the most synergistic option:
If we want the largest odds of surviving, Silver gives by far the most amount of immediate power, unless we are willing to grab all-defeating stance. On top of that, it's highly synergetic with any non-Gondar method of infiltration. Crimson Flare gives better long-term power, but Silver gives more immediate one, which we really need until we finally defeat the temple.
Silver is most synergistic with our existing build. There's a whole range of other considerations, like synergy with our plans, synergy with our future picks, synergy with our synergy, and I think I'm getting tired of hearing the word synergy already.
- Location
- a place
While I'd agree with you about that as a general rule, my argument here is that because of the synergies I'd say Silver specifically is a better choice to take before Eclipse due to how it makes it easier to fulfill Eclipse's long term potential. I did say getting Pillars would in fact be better long term, but Silver has specific benefits in this situation which when combined with Pillars restrictions make me thing this is the better option at the moment.
Sure, i'm not arguing that which ring EFB we get first isn't a difficult question.
Plus, taking away the Azure ring to make ourselves the basis of the civilizations power is asking 10 million people to place a incredible amount of trust in us, because our willingness to continue doing that is the foundation of their society. Any offer we make to this effect is basically offering to give us the potential to be absolute ruler of the Temple. We better be investing in options that make people actually consider that as a option of something other then last resort.
I strongly disagree with this sentiment. I think we could absolutely fuck this up if we make the wrong choices build or strategy wise, we should not be seeing saving the ring as a forgone conclusion that nothing we do from here on could negatively impact our chances thereof.
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Ah yes, forgot about this thing. I knew there was something I wanted to say.
Being "synergistic" is a worthless quality; similar to how being "original" or "innovative" doesn't have any intrinsic value in of itself. Synergy is valuable because it usually implies increased value due to previous choices; however, what we pick is no synergy but value.
If option that lacks synergy offers more value then it's just better option.
As an aside, can we let this "we have Agi build" meme die already.
In which case we will die so it doesn't matter either way, does it? Either pick has death as it's failure state, so unless you want to claim that Silver is "safer" in terms of clearing the temple(which it absolutely is not), then "but we could not clear the temple" has approximately zero weight.
- Location
- a place
The latter is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that picking Silver is much safer in terms of clearing the temple because of the huge party wide buffs to our ability to handle combat, social situations, and even our cognition that will get better as time goes on.
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