A Simple Transaction I

Zampano said:

Taking Wreath here and using it to boost Edeldross wastes the primary strength of Wreath; we already have access to Surgecasting! The whole point of Wreath in my mind is to grab something that would otherwise be too difficult to acquire.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I dunno, picking it for a system you have already raises your advancement quite a bit. Considering the power of the system you can pick is pretty restricted, it might be better to Surge it up. Especially considering Wreath also buffs mental stats and helps us power up our party.

Zampano said:

Taking Wreath here and using it to boost Edeldross wastes the primary strength of Wreath; we already have access to Surgecasting! The whole point of Wreath in my mind is to grab something that would otherwise be too difficult to acquire.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

While I actuallty disagree that the buff of three X advancement to Edeldross isn't worth not taking another magic system due to sheer variety of buffs and utility it's capable of that greatly synergises with our current and planned build, the sentence you quoted is in reference to that fact that no matter what Wreath option we would take in this instance it would boost Letz Sharpbright Surgecrasting advancement, the element we took specifically because we wanted to give Letz long term potential.

runeblue360 said:

I think Gisena's going to require effort to even be relevant to late-game combat for this task while Letrizia will only be so due to Verschlengorge. This isn't to say that neither are helpful in other ways, socially, politically and scientifically, they're going to keep mattering till the end. But trying to push them to the point that they're strong enough to actually help us with the Hidden Ones is a nigh-futile endeavor without Retinue, given how that would require buffing them to the point that they can transcend linear time.

Keep in mind, it's been maybe 10 days since Hunger came here and he's already orders of magnitude stronger than he was. Considering how Progression scales and the chance of us getting the Ring and the Pillars, that rate of growth will only accelerate over time. Unless we pivot to an ally focused build (which the Nameless pretty much did towards the end there), us outgrowing them is inevitable.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

We've actually spent a considerable amount of picks and Arete doing exactly that for the past few updates, from getting 7 arete Edeldross which helps buff all our party members and gives more opportunies for Gisena advancement. Considering how many things Nullity has been shown to work against and the potential of Findross we've seen up to and including stuff like the Maiden, I actually disagree she couldn't scale up that far even if this is literally all we picked for her, though I'll point out post ring we're likely to take either total exclipse or Pillars as our next EFB which would help advance her even further. Meanwhile, we healed up Letz mech to a degree, got her magic, doubled down by getting her a 7 dot arete tier element instead of expanding our personal power, and tripled down on her scaling by making it one that was the best for long term potential that also synergies with her gaining in astral rank.

Wreath basically compounds on all the myriad advantages that we've been accumulating during the vacation, and potentially adds more in the form of a another comparable ally mage who benefits from the better scaling.

runeblue360 said:

Why focus on a noncombat option when we're about the immediately go into combat in the next few updates? They'll get no significant benefits out of the +All Stats in the handful of days that we'll have. More importantly, even if we don't buff the others, we'll certainly want to buff ourselves, which taking Magnitude wouldn't let us do because we're a primarily melee combatant and it buffs all beings within a given radius.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Magnitude isn't the noncombat option, it's the precombat option. Any Edeldross surge we use should be done before we close to range (not least because it is slow/difficult). If we are engaged in combat then we shouldn't be close enough to target the TeenMage Mutant Hot Spring Runaways (who aren't likely to be brought into the Temple anyway because of moral concerns).

Control also has the opportunity cost of reduced stats & payoffs that mostly show up on a timeline that's longer than our expected lifespan in the Temple.

ImperatorV said:

Well, I hope for ya'll's sake that we can get the drops for Ruling Ring and the contest of Primacy doesn't kill us, because SAVE build is kinda useless if we can't do that.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Eh, mostly for me it's not wanting to expend Wreath, rather then save for Ring, that and I think the Stance would be a better pick for the temple if we need more power.

This is not a binding vote, primarily a survey. If all options had a decent chance of victory, what would be your true preference for this vote?

[ ] SAVE [Vigor Itself x2] - Some combat, some diplomatic proficiency
[ ] SAVE [Fierce Quickening x2] - Aggressive combat proficiency while SAVEing
[ ] Wreath [Assuming Surgecraft is Taken] - Compounding surgecraft benefits, +Int/Wis/Cha, buffing teammates' magic systems
[ ] Heal Versch [Sublime Transfusion + Exalted Spirit] - Carrot and stick, siege warfare against the Inner Temple. Get some picks off the Astral Beasts Versch attracts.
[ ] Ennobling Option [Ennobling] - The power to raise up armies of the mighty and turn the houses of the Temple civ against one another, but no immediate buffs for yourself.

If participating, please remember to copy over your previous vote so it isn't lost.

[X] Vigor Itself
[X] Vigor Itself x2
[X] Experimentation

[X] SAVE [Fierce Quickening x2] - Aggressive combat proficiency while SAVEing

[X] Heal Versch
[X] Vigor Itself
[X] Vigor Itself x2
[X] Magnitude

[X] Wreath [Assuming Surgecraft is Taken] - Compounding surgecraft benefits, +Int/Wis/Cha, buffing teammates' magic systems
[X] Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath - 7 Arete (2 picks)
[X] Control

[X] Vigor Itself
[X] Vigor Itself x2
[X] Magnitude

[X] SAVE [Vigor Itself x2] - Some combat, some diplomatic proficiency

I don't think my vote would actually change. While Healing Versch and Ennobling both sound neat, I'm heavily in favor of saving for the Ring, so Arete-costing options were out. The only real choice for me in light of that was between Quickening and Vigor, and despite swiftness of body and mind being very attractive, Might has its place too, not to mention how fun it is seeing Hunger deploy his Charisma against friends and foes alike.

[X] Heal Versch [Sublime Transfusion + Exalted Spirit] - Carrot and stick, siege warfare against the Inner Temple. Get some picks off the Astral Beasts Versch attracts.

[X] Vigor Itself
[X] Vigor Itself x2
[X] Magnitude

I'd prefer Fierce Quickening for SAVE purposes too, but that's a secondary preference compared to giga robo.

Hrm...

[X] Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath
[X] Control
[X] Ennobling Option [Ennobling] - The power to raise up armies of the mighty and turn the houses of the Temple civ against one another, but no immediate buffs for yourself.

Going in descending order from Ennobling,

2. A tossup between PW and Healing Versch, I want whatever the totality lore is and the low end intelligence explosion/singularity from PW with Edelross is very awesome
3. Vigor Itself X2 due to better long term prospects from Charisma, I'm curious about whatever is gated behind blood advancements but evidently not that curious
4. Fierce Quickening X2, I don't know. The Wits is tempting too, but for whatever reason this is at the bottom of my preference list this round.

Btw, the Ennobling option might get conflated with the pick if people leave the stuff after the name out.

[X] Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath
[X] Experimentation

[X] Wreath [Assuming Surgecraft is Taken] - Compounding surgecraft benefits, +Int/Wis/Cha, buffing teammates' magic systems

[X] Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath
[X] Control

[X] Wreath [Assuming Surgecraft is Taken] - Compounding surgecraft benefits, +Int/Wis/Cha, buffing teammates' magic systems

My second choice would be Heal Versch, for blowing down annoying temples with Mecha.

[X] Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath
[X] Experimentation
[X] Wreath [Assuming Surgecraft is Taken] - Compounding surgecraft benefits, +Int/Wis/Cha, buffing teammates' magic systems

Looks like Heal Versch is a somewhat popular secondary choice!

Unelemental said:

Btw, the Ennobling option might get conflated with the pick if people leave the stuff after the name out.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I'll rename it "Ennobling option" then!

Sara said:

Wreath basically compounds on all the myriad advantages that we've been accumulating during the vacation, and potentially adds more in the form of a another comparable ally mage who benefits from the better scaling.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

All that stuff is super cool but like... the midgame of this task is "blow up a planet no problemo". If we estimate the Maiden as being at roughly Jotarun's level (low 400's or thereabouts, if I recall correctly), turning Gisena into her world's messiah still wouldn't be enough let her keep up.

Zampano said:

Magnitude isn't the noncombat option, it's the precombat option. Any Edeldross surge we use should be done before we close to range (not least because it is slow/difficult). If we are engaged in combat then we shouldn't be close enough to target the TeenMage Mutant Hot Spring Runaways (who aren't likely to be brought into the Temple anyway because of moral concerns).

Control also has the opportunity cost of reduced stats & payoffs that mostly show up on a timeline that's longer than our expected lifespan in the Temple.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Yeah, but one of the reasons we even got two arms was to ensure we can cast in combat since Rihaku pointed out that we'd probably want to ability to reapply whatever support surges we'd get in combat, indicating that it's not guaranteed to last that long. I'd take a consistent +20% for the entire battle over a +30% exclusively for the first part. Moreover, by the time we actually know we're in combat, chances are we won't have the time necessary to begin pre-buffing. Pulling that shit against Vanreir would just leave us skewered, for example.

[X] Vigor Itself
[X] Vigor Itself x2
[X] Experimentation
[X] Ennobling Option [Ennobling]

Thinking about it more, a +++All Stats and +0.5 Rank would probably go well with our strength when it comes to recruiting the Encampment as an army to storm the Inner Temple. With some inside help from the Houses and we'd be in a solid position to bring it all crashing down. Otherwise, Healing Verschlengorge would be really good too since that would let us settle in for a siege. That's what I'd have probably picked if we had Exavolt rather than Sharpbright.

[X] Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath
[X] Control

[X] Wreath [Vertex]
Enmeshing the power of art into the build. Maybe I'd go for the Ennobling Option after that, but what if we became too attached to the expendable soldiers we ennobled? Perhaps a different Wreath option if I was sure I could get an army of white jade golems out of them (with black jade essence blasters naturally), Tempest Commandos I'd call them.

We can't take Vertex, we need to encounter a magic system first to enable it with the Wreath. And Vertex either doesn't exist in this continuity or hasn't been discovered by the Elixireans, otherwise our group would have noticed something.

runeblue360 said:

Yeah, but one of the reasons we even got two arms was to ensure we can cast in combat since Rihaku pointed out that we'd probably want to ability to reapply whatever support surges we'd get in combat, indicating that it's not guaranteed to last that long. I'd take a consistent +20% for the entire battle over a +30% exclusively for the first part. Moreover, by the time we actually know we're in combat, chances are we won't have the time necessary to begin pre-buffing. Pulling that shit against Vanreir would just leave us skewered, for example.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Hunger was the one to engage Vanreir; we had time to observe Vanreir's fight with the other R-type golem.

Magnitude does take advantage of the second arm for spellcasting; we are able to "spam" damage-preventing energy blasts while in combat. Making sure that the "strength of blasts and barriers created" is maximized will get the most out of the combat option we'll use most often. By contrast, the pure Edelross surge is "considerably more draining to use". This suggests that the precision on offer for the Edelross Surge will only be available a few times per fight.

We can spam Fell Handed Stroke without getting tired thanks to Uttermost & Fall of Night. It would be a real shame to go back to being Tired/Exhausted at the end of every fight because Control baited us into a fighting style that relies on over-use of pure Edeldross surges.

Edit: Quotes from blurbs as citations:

-Solidified edeldross can be used as a form of damage-preventing energy blast, which, while unable to slay enemies on its own, can be actively spammed due to its negation of harm. Can ablate away to cancel equivalent quantities of Nullity, allowing for easy combat alongside Gisena with a bit of practice. Pacify a city undergoing a zombie apocalypse with a minimum of innocent life lost, scatter both sides in a pitched battle without slaying any of their number, etc.
-Beings within the radius of a release of pure edeldross receive a 20% bonus to all Attributes. The magnitude of this bonus can be improved over time. Take care not to buff your enemies as well. Pure edeldross is considerably more draining to use.
-By working with Gisena's mage-sight, Hunger may slowly over time develop specific Patterns of edeldross that can temporary replicate the effects of various Sorcerous Graces. Perhaps developments even further than this can be achieved in time...

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

[ ] Magnitude - Improves the magnitude of the +All Stats buff and the strength of blasts and barriers created. Simple, yet undeniably effective.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

runeblue360 said:

All that stuff is super cool but like... the midgame of this task is "blow up a planet no problemo". If we estimate the Maiden as being at roughly Jotarun's level (low 400's or thereabouts, if I recall correctly), turning Gisena into her world's messiah still wouldn't be enough let her keep up.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I feel like you're underestimating how useful having the Maiden around would be, though I do agree that Sorcery is ill-suited to blowing up planets.

[X] Vigor Itself
[X] Vigor Itself x2
[X] Control

[X] SAVE [Fierce Quickening x2] - Aggressive combat proficiency while SAVEing