Nice thing about Pillars is that, theoretically, we can create specific foes or situations to gain various rare picks.
I think that first glimpse of new, improved Echo of the Forebear is all we need for true happiness.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- a place
This is when we're specifically in a position to do training that maximizes our potential with a specific sort of new magic we invested in and when it's the shiniest option that nothing else of comparable arete cost to to compare it too. Heck, it's has relatively few competitors at all.
One thing i'll point out is that unlike ++progression, the Wreath buff is going to not just apply to Lord Hunger, but also Gisena, Letz, and any new ally we have the potential to pick up here. Considering the utility Surgecraft elements can give us, the potential of gaining someone with another one comparable to Edeldross or Letz would basically be like picking up another magic system altogether but with a similar advancement rate buff as boosting one we already have on top of all the benefits of getting Wreath boosts early now. With Wreath even increasing our chances of recruitment.
Not to mention it helps alleviate fears of Lord Hunger outscaling Gisena and Letz even more then he does now, which getting the ring first rather then the other way around would exaberate. Thinking of only the recursive perfection buffs going towards Hunger himself is a mistake I think.
First off I want to say I really respect how well made your arguments are and you're making posting in this thread extremely fun for me, thank you so much throwing up these counterpoints. Been a long time since i've been this engaged in something like this.
What i'll say to this is for one, the only reason Lord Hunger considered training was because he had a number of people well versed in surgecrafting to work with for him to learn more about the magic with, which another system like sorcery wouldnt give us anyone to do so with. Without that bonus, I don't think it'd make sense that Hunger would spend any extra time training then he would now rather then going straight for the temple once the days over.
However, one thing I'll say is that since you seem like you're waiting for another potential perfection focused magic system, their's no guarantee we will actually even find one, and the subset of one's we'll find that we can't unlock without the wreath are probably smaller. Keep in mind that Rihaku is very good at writing varied magical systems and we'll spend a finite amount of time writing this story, so their's no real guarantee that perfect synergestic magic system that we need the wreath for and can convince everyone to put down arete for in the face of other potential shinies that might also be up for voting at that exact moment will come up. After all, theirs a lot of potential thing he could explore rather then doubling up in this quest once more.
Last edited:
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
i am hopelessly addicted to numbers go up
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I've never found increasing our physical stats interesting
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Well, since Ennobling seems to have lost momentum I think it's time I went for my second choice.
[X] Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath
[X] Control
@BrainInAJar I've switched to PW.
[X] Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath
[X] Control
@BrainInAJar I've switched to PW.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Tally incoming:
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
Any chance I can convince you to go with [] Magnitude instead of control? Magnitude has a powerful synergy with Wreath'd Gisena because it makes us better able to resist her now-boosted Nullity. Plus, if we go Wreath we're more likely to recruit some teenage mages; they are very unlikely to be fighting in close-quarters with the enemy so the risk of accidentally buffing a foe with Edeldross surge is very slim imo.
- Location
- Pindorama
Sorry, gonna have to veto that; We are too close to another EFB for a 7 Arete expenditure. Guess I'll vote for pure Save now.
[X] Vigor Itself
[X] Vigor Itself x2
[X] Magnitude
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Dunno... I guess? I'm still interested in whatever Edeldross control unlocks but there's also a strong constituency for stats
[X] Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath
[X] Magnitude
@BrainInAJar Alright. You're now at three votes 1 veto since I'm not sure how to handle a circumstance like this.
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
We're in position to do training for one update, which diminishes the utility derived from a percentage boost in gains compared to flat boost in gains. If there are other competitors, I would note here that saving Arete would make us more capable of purchasing both. Alternatively, if we pick something else despite the increased value from PW, that means that the other option was just that much more useful, and that's fine for me.
Piecewise responses: I think Zampano's made a pretty cohesive case for why we can't hedge benefits on taking new allies. Progression is likely to make our ally buff abilities (such as Exalted Spirit, Augment Dominion, Undying Vanguard) stronger, and unlock more of them over time. It also frees up more picks to take them, versus splitting our attention between buffing allies and ourselves. The biggest boon from Progression is that we have more choices to make, not just that each choice is more meaningful.
Personally, I'm not very scared of us outscaling them too much. We can't keep them around forever, and besides that just being around us has significantly healed Versch, caused Gisena to have a breakthrough, gave Letrizia magic, and has just given them significant buffs overall. It's true that recursive perfection buffs affects everyone, but I'm personally leery of bringing the Surgecraft kids (that are physically just blood-buffed normals (excepting the ones with physical augmentation, of course)) with high firepower but low durability. Even with Edeldross, the idea of Gondar just blamming some kind in the face with whatever counter they cooked for us is not enlightening. This would leave us with just Gisena and us, and I'm unconvinced Gisena needs the additional enhancement when she already has Sublime Attainment. So even if the total party buffs are better, I'm convinced that our current status is sufficient for our goals.
Thanks! Likewise, and I appreciate it. Took a break from competitive debate, only to come back to it in this thread...
Exactly! So if he trains in both hypothetical worlds (and focuses on sparring against the kids) I find it difficult to believe that it will reach the level of recursion necessary to outpace the buffs from stats already. So either we spend time during the trip back/at the Encampment focusing on Edeldross to get full benefits from it, or we spend time on other things. Either way, the choice is suboptimal. At least in the world where he picks STATS, this time will have been freed up-- and Arete spent in other ways.
I'm not waiting for a perfection focused magic system, I'm just waiting for one worth the 7 Arete entrance fee! Battle Mastery is fine, any of Fairbright's mysterious systems are fine (a part of me is lamenting how we could have taken her blood if we had just picked her), or anyone in the Encampment! I'd even settle for Soul Evocation later on if we're really that desperate (although it feels like a waste), but I'm saying that we don't lose that much by waiting and waiting for choices until the next opportunity.
All things considered, I don't think PW would be bad. I'm just averse to spending Arete, and have an interest in Ring and Blood Advancements.
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
To cap it out, and peek at the hinted new Blood Advancements! (Also, ++++Might is pretty dang stronk)
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
can i convince you to consider [] Magnitude instead of control? There is a really good synergy with Gisena because we can use more Edeldross to resist stronger blasts of Nullity.
Most of our fights have involved being very close to Gisena or keeping the fighting far away from her, so the concern about accidentally buffing an opponent is pretty unlikely imo. Since we've chosen to train with the teenage mages, it is very unlikely that we will recruit any fighters who will be engaged in melee with the enemy unless something has gone very wrong. This means that the precision placement of Control is less useful.
By contrast, Magnitude can strengthen the effects of Edeldross on a support character who stays in the camp with Letrizia working in a healer or crafter capacity. These are the kind of characters that the thread is most likely to recruit, imo.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Welp, the mega robo dream is dead.
Time to make prudent financial decisions.
[X] Vigor Itself
[X] Vigor Itself x2
[X] Magnitude
Time to make prudent financial decisions.
[X] Vigor Itself
[X] Vigor Itself x2
[X] Magnitude
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
I think we can probably pick up magnitude easier on our own than we can pick up control, so want go grab control while getting assistance.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
Would you consider [] Magnitude instead of experimentation? Experimentation risks getting actually no benefit from an entire day of Apochryphal mitigation, which would be really discouraging imo.
Maybe you don't care about the risk, but I hope you will look at the opportunity cost of chasing a pure physical pseudo grace. I worked out the math of getting +20% on All Stats earlier in the thread. Aside from raising stats that we can't normally touch like APP & LUCK, consider the certain benefits of Magnitude. Moving from a +20% to +30% doesn't seem unreasonable for an entire day of training.
For our physical stats, that's +.7 WILL, +1.3(2)(2.9) CON, +1.9(2.5)(3.3) STR, +.7(2.1)(3) AGI. (Also recall that Will still applies to physical stats!)
For our other stats that's +.2 MAN, +.2 PROT, +.2 (.7) WITS, +.4 INT, and +.4 CHA.
A purely physical pseudo grace that we've seen already gave ++++AGI and +++STR. That would be at most ++AGI and .4STR more than the Magnitude boost (ignoring the boosted values in parentheses). The boosts to LUCK, APP, MAN, PROT, WITS, INT, and CHA are a steep price to pay for a relatively small additional boost to physical* stats.
*Note: I admit that the new pseudo grace might be different than the last one we saw; I also did not account for the attack speed component of the last physical grace. That's why I'm agnostic about the change in +CON between Magnitude and Experimentation
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It's worth noting that one of the concerns raised by the +All Stats buff would be accidentally buffing our enemies. Being more selective in our targeting would provide a greater net improvement than adding more pluses. As for the Pseudo-Grace, it comes with a +30% attack speed and doesn't take any effort to maintain, which would make it better for high speed combat than something that does and needs to be reapplied.
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
Darn it, the greediest option is winning! And plan "Kool-Aid Man through the False Moon Temple wall with a giant mecha" is dead too, so I can't even switch to that as a second choice!
Well, I hope for ya'll's sake that we can get the drops for Ruling Ring and the contest of Primacy doesn't kill us, because SAVE build is kinda useless if we can't do that.
...And we're giving up that beautiful synergy of having picked training time, and then buying an option that multiplies the benefits of training sixfold... What a waste. It's not like we're in a situation where maximizing our current benefits is important or something!
I can only conclude that once again, without an immediate chance of death in our face the voters choose to be greedy as heck.
Well, I hope for ya'll's sake that we can get the drops for Ruling Ring and the contest of Primacy doesn't kill us, because SAVE build is kinda useless if we can't do that.
...And we're giving up that beautiful synergy of having picked training time, and then buying an option that multiplies the benefits of training sixfold... What a waste. It's not like we're in a situation where maximizing our current benefits is important or something!
I can only conclude that once again, without an immediate chance of death in our face the voters choose to be greedy as heck.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
The effect of [] Magnitude seems like the best fit with a Gisena who has access to better Nullity Effects. We can use Edeldross to "ablate away Nullity" so maximizing our output seems like the best way to allow Gisena to really cut loose.
Since we usually fight with Gisena right by us or very far away, it doesn't seem like the improved aiming precision from Control will help us much. We've already seen some trepidation about recruiting Teenagers... it's almost a guarantee that we won't have additional front-line melee fighters that we want to enhance at the risk of accidentally targeting the enemy. So all the benefits of Control seem to involve medium- to long-term research projects imo.
How often will our allies be close enough to enemies for this to be a concern? We have thus far fought with Gisena on our back or very far away. The only recruits available right now are inexperienced MageTeens. If we recruit them as combatants then they shouldn't be in melee unless something goes very wrong. The thread has already expressed hesitation of endangering the teens at all.
I think it is more likely that we will hire a support healer/crafter if we hire anybody. Staying at the camp with Letrizia, they will benefit more from the enhanced Edeldross surge during non-combat situations.
Rihaku
The Internet
Hm.. perhaps I should run a poll on people's true preferences irrespective of practical considerations? "What option would you really want if they all had decent chances of winning" or something. This vote could alter Hunger's primary strategy going into the Temple, after all, though with Vigor Itself winning over Fierce Quickening there are still diplomatic lines that could be pursued even under SAVE plan.
- Location
- a place
I actually don't think it doesn't it does diminish the utility win the percentage boost in gains potentially applies to the same stat. I think the benefits of saving to make a extra pick at the same time as Wreath our kind of nullified when people admit the whole goal of saving is to burn it all on a EFB, and then potentially beeline for a third one after that for the Evening Sky. Plus, I don't really agree that any pick we'd make other then Wreath would necessarily be better in that case. Has every build vote in a Rihaku quest, or even just this one, had a result which you thought was objectively more optimal then any other combination?
That setting aside that, unfortunately their's a nonzero chance we might not have the evening sky one of these days since their have been during this update who legitimately want to get rid of it for one reason or another. Getting Wreath, aside from avoiding the opportunity costs of getting it later, would all but eliminate that risk.
I would actually disagree that we can't keep them around forever. Nameless's bodyguard ended up outscaling him by the time he beat that quest after all, and he got far fewer chances too increase his companions abilities when build votes came up during Even Further Beyond. I'd also say i'm not sure that bringing Surgecrafters along would necessarily be that risky. After all, we buff their physical durability along with having the ability to shield and move them, plus for all we know their own surgecrafting might help with that. The only reason we're not even bringing Letz right into the temple after all is because we picked Sharpbright for her over Exavolt. But aside from that, I think what you're saying makes it even more important that we get party wide buffs to magic advancement, since the sooner we get them the sooner they start applying, with every update beforehand being wasted potential on their part. So not only does Wreath synergize with our wreath, but it also synergies with any other party buffing choice we've already made and plan to make in the future where Letz and Giesena our concerned. For instance, part of the whole reason we even took Sharpbright instead of Exavolt was Sharpbright's long term potential and Letz ability to research Astral Rank, both of which taking Wreath here helps them realize as fast as possible. I'll also say i'm not actually convinced that our current status is sufficient for our goals. Our goals aren't just to beat the inner temple, to rule a civilization, or even just to win the war of the ring. It's to take our revenge against the Hidden Masters, and having allies that can scale with us will only multiply our chances, especially when we keep getting options to increase them even further as time goes on.
If each magical system compounds on others, then surely making sure are allies who our mages scale with us and can compound with our magical systems is a worthwhile endeavor.
I'm not sure I buy that big about having to split our focus between focusing on Edeldross or other things lest it be optimal. The way to progress our surgecrafting once we have already internalized the general surgecrafting knowledge from this civilization would be fighting, something Lord Hunger is already planning to do. Not to mention the fact that we'll have Letz progressing in surgecrafting along with a potential other who would then be learning surgecrafting better, which could result in them passing down applicable improvements to us, since it seems like surgecrafting isn't so different between elements that can't be done.
I'll also point out getting Outer Sorcery is a bargain considering it would otherwise take 25 arete on our part from what I remember, and Rihaku has already said it would straight up be the biggest boost to immediate power we could get. Setting this aside, considering wreath only seems to come along when we acquire new magical systems and since that generally means we have to use Arete, aside from the opportunity costs taking it now might save us Arete in the long run that could go towards a EFB if you really think it's worthwhile to get at some point.
Last edited:
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
Taking Wreath here and using it to boost Edeldross wastes the primary strength of Wreath; we already have access to Surgecasting! The whole point of Wreath in my mind is to grab something that would otherwise be too difficult to acquire.
The long-term benefits are appealing but not decisive. In particular, the looming challenge of the Temple means that we might not get to see those benefits! If we were getting a new magic system instead of just boosting Surgecasting I'd have a different position.
I can be happy with either build vote as long as we train Magnitude, tbh
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Why focus on a noncombat option when we're about the immediately go into combat in the next few updates? They'll get no significant benefits out of the +All Stats in the handful of days that we'll have. More importantly, even if we don't buff the others, we'll certainly want to buff ourselves, which taking Magnitude wouldn't let us do because we're a primarily melee combatant and it buffs all beings within a given radius.
I think Gisena's going to require effort to even be relevant to late-game combat for this task while Letrizia will only be so due to Verschlengorge. This isn't to say that neither are helpful in other ways, socially, politically and scientifically, they're going to keep mattering till the end. But trying to push them to the point that they're strong enough to actually help us with the Hidden Ones is a nigh-futile endeavor without Retinue, given how that would require buffing them to the point that they can transcend linear time.
Keep in mind, it's been maybe 10 days since Hunger came here and he's already orders of magnitude stronger than he was. Considering how Progression scales and the chance of us getting the Ring and the Pillars, that rate of growth will only accelerate over time. Unless we pivot to an ally focused build (which the Nameless pretty much did towards the end there), us outgrowing them is inevitable.