It sounds like everyone wants to use it for Surgecrafting at the moment, though that could change. But unless it's contentious we'll go with the consensus in the thread. I'd like to get the Temple wrapped up sooner rather than later. After all, if Hunger dies we'd want to know quickly!
Well, I'm interested in picking Gisena's magic system too. Just, simply get a full Grace that way. How would having a Surgecraft element of "Edeldross" interact with having a full-blown Grace of your own?

(Surgecrafting is just the currently newest thing we came across just now, so, naturally we ask questions about it...)
... Huh, question, @Rihaku does Verschlengorge, and the Shroud/Pressure/whatever-it-is-called, count as a "mage"? Or, does an Armament's pilot count as a "mage" or as having a "magic system" when piloting an Armament?
You already have that magic system!
Yes erm I mean I was wondering if it counted for the "pick one system you already have and boost it" thing; and also for the "friendly mages can advance in their magics faster" thing (i.e. if Letrizia and Gisena would be able to advance in Astral Rank, or if Letrizia could go even further in her piloting-and-using-Verschlengorge's-Pressure skills).

So basically, was wondering if we could increase Hunger's gain in the Accretion system. Though I'm... actually not sure how that would work, exactly? Is the whole of Hunger's magic system of Accretion represented by his Astral Rank? i.e. To level up and levelgrind Accretion, is to levelgrind your Astral Rank. And, since that's... not exactly something Hunger can do manually -- leveling his Rank directly I mean -- I'm not sure how that'd work.

Technically, since Accretion was described as "symbiosis between object and bearer", maybe it'd increase our improvements of our artifacts...? But... I'm not sure how that would work per se. Our artifacts are getting improved by our picking advancements, and spending arête...

How would picking "Accretion" work? And, since artifact growth is part of the Accretion system, how the heck does that interaction work out?


Anyway... moving on slightly. If Astral Rank and/or piloting-an-Armament counted as a magic, then could Letrizia advance her Astral Rank with it? Or improve and advance her Armament piloting skills some?

Does Verschlengorge count as an "allied mage", and can it improve or grow stronger? (Well I mean, it's horribly wounded right now sooo... yeah... Most of its improvement would come from healing. But! Theoretically, could an Armament become better at wielding its Shroud or Pressure or whatever the right thing is?)
 
The Leading plans are, organized by Arete Spending(We have 10.something)

Philosopher's Wreath+Experimentation(7 Arete, Maximizes the Returns on our Surgecraft Training/Pseudo-Grace and Buffs our companions unless we decide to take a different magic system)

Ennobling+Control(2 Arete, Lets us upgrade Gisena on the trip to the temple, raise Letrezia's lifespan, reduces the damage from Decimator's Affliction exposure a bit, gives us a useful political tool for dealing with Temple residents. We also get progress on the way to esoteric edeldross use and minimize the odds of buffing our enemies)

Vigor Itself X2 + Magnitude(0 Arete, Boosts Might/Charisma/ the all stats buff from Edeldross and the power of our blasts, may unlock whatever advancement comes after Vigor Itself)
 
Another thing to consider...

A lot of people really liked Inksky because it made Evening Sky more relevant. Well, getting Philosopher's Wreath would certainly make our mantle relevant again! The Protection and Charisma functions of Evening Sky have been crippled by Uttermost, but the Evening Sky is still the source of our "magical" options! Getting PW gives Evening something important to do, and potentially unlocks further advancements in the Intelligence, Magic, and teamwork categories, allowing Evening Sky to be more relevant in the future by giving it options that aren't nerfed by Uttermost!
 
We had an opportunity to be offered Scent of Prey again; we just didn't take it. What we are offered is usually a combination of what type of enemy we defeated plus what would be relevant. We won't stop fighting mages any time soon. and getting a magic system will always possess relevancy. We have already been offered Wreath before, and likely will again if we don't pick it now.
us not taking that is exactly my point and we will stop fighting mages the moment we leave the Voyaging Realm, which could easily be right after the Temple
Sure, my wording was strong. But it's still absurd to claim we will actually take the option later on the basis of a plan we make now.
 
Guys, Vigor Itself x2 is like taking 4 Echoes! This is value unprecedent!

Another thing to consider...

A lot of people really liked Inksky because it made Evening Sky more relevant. Well, getting Philosopher's Wreath would certainly make our mantle relevant again! The Protection and Charisma functions of Evening Sky have been crippled by Uttermost, but the Evening Sky is still the source of our "magical" options! Getting PW gives Evening something important to do, and potentially unlocks further advancements in the Intelligence, Magic, and teamwork categories, allowing Evening Sky to be more relevant in the future by giving it options that aren't nerfed by Uttermost!

My concern, however, is that magical oriented picks and builds will be split between advancing Evening Sky and whatever magic system we select. We've already got SORD, RING, BLOOD, and SKY. I'm not sure if we make enough picks to pick between everything, especially with 4 picks already reserved for RING.
 
[X] Augment Dominion: Blood
[X] Sub
lime Transfusion
- 2 Arete

Might as well get this plan going. I call it Plan: Blood Type Blue, because I'm sending in an Eva to deal with the problem.

Vers and Riz probably can't solo the Ring Civilization, but they can definitely drastically lower the amount of work left for Hunger and Gisena.

This plan spends 2 Arete, in exchange for far more power to deal with the Temple than even the 7 Arete plans being proposed.
 
Can't bring myself to get on the boat where we compare PW to InkSky. Far as I understood it, InkSky made a holistic improvement to all future Evening Sky choices.

PW just means we get better at one more magic system, and I'm still unsold at the systems we do have.

[X] Ennobling
[X] Control

For the time being. It'll give us some diplo choices that we can tactically use to create more dissent in the Inners, allowing us to activate Age and Treachery better.

I'd have gone for magnitude if only to sell it better, but control would at least not fuck up our shit. That, and it helps characterize Hunger a bit more. Not always going for bigger dakka doesn't mean you're not going for better dakka

Edit:

Also it's 7 Arete. Getting Hunger ruling ring is still gonna be better since it gives us ++progression and that's a holistic upgrade. Getting PW after, or any form of Evening Sky would be more beneficial then.
 
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Mm. If you want immediate power, going for Sorcery over Surgecraft is the line, which you do intend to do. Are you not afraid of the potential anti-synergy or redundancy from taking Edeldross?
I assumed that Edeldross could help us coalesce. If I'm wrong, it's probably better to simply save and spend in a combat-focused 7 arete pick.
 
[ ] Fierce Quickening - The absurd violence of Blood unleashed. Let all that falls within its dominion be spilled, if it be in service to the Ringbearer. Adds [++Agility, +Wits] to the bonuses from Quickening, subject to the usual conditions. Can be taken up to 3 times.

[ ] Vigor Itself - The primordial might and glory of Blood resplendent. Let all who witness its form tremble, and be subject. Adds [++Might, +Charisma] to the bonuses from Quickening, subject to the usual conditions. Can be taken up to 3 times.

[ ] Augment Dominion: Blood - The world-wielding will of the Ring.
Treat the wielder's Rank as if it were (.5 Low/.25 Medium/.1 High) higher for purposes of the [Ring of Power] effect applied to the Blood domain, increasing its potency and versatility. Repeatable, but costs 1 more pick each time.
We know what these do, they're good and don't cost Arete. Perfect for the SAVE gang.
[ ] Exalted Spirit - 2 Arete. Conjunctional [Hunger, Evening Sky]. Mind made vigorous as the body. Gain +Int, +Wits, +Wis, +Cha, -Heartlessness, while in a form with physical blood. Allies under blood enhancement gain +Int, +Cha. Blood enhancement requires physical blood.
This is really a steal at 2 Arete and 1 pick, it just doesn't really help us to complete the rest of the Temple, which is what we have to focus on right now.
[ ] Sublime Transfusion - 2 Arete. The restorative vigor of blood willingly given. The wielder may donate his blood to another in order to heal them. This applies regeneration at a rate triple the wielder's own, and this healing effect is treated as if possessing conceptual potency a full Rank higher than the wielder's baseline, minimum 7. Even organisms of different species can be revitalized through such means.
Very good at healing Verschlengorge but not helpful with clearing the Temple. Unless, maybe, we can Kool-Aid Man our way in with Verschlengorge?
[ ] Ennobling - 2 Arete (2 picks)

Ambition's work is conducted atop the shoulders of giants. Raise up one's servants to appropriately towering stature.

The process of comprehensive elevation of all positive attributes of the blood. Applied continuously over a long period, boons may become permanent and expand in scope, enhancing all qualities of the target and their future offspring. Applies up to +++All Stats to the target, Lifespan improves by fourfold. Elevates the target by .5 Rank to a maximum of 3.5. Does not work on yourself or on species whose native Rank is higher than 4.5.

Effects become permanent after a few weeks focused on a single target, or a few years focused on a small population. Further Advancements may improve both the scale and speed of augmentation. With a thought, the original bestower may retract any boon so given, so long as they possess the Ring of Blood.
Permanent buff to our allies and apparently helpful in diplomacy efforts for the Inner Temple, if we want to go for that.
[ ] Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath - 7 Arete (2 picks)

The twilight hours are a time of contemplation, growth of mind and spirit. Perhaps there are more things in earth and heaven than are dreamt of in one's philosophy. But that may not always be so.

They for whom the heavens themselves are aegis and raiment, these are the hours to speak - perchance to dream. And in dreaming, grow strong beyond the imagining of mortal men.


[+Intelligence, +Wisdom, +Charisma]

Select one magic system which you have personally encountered and which is no greater than the Noble Praxis. You may use that system to the limits of your Intelligence or applicable Attributes, developing any appropriate qualities within reason, but this may no more than double your overall advancement. Alternatively, you may improve an existing magic you possess under the same conditions, hastening your rate of advancement in that art by [Intelligence x 100%] and substantially increasing both the variety and the conceptual potency of effects available to it.

Allied mages with which the wearer dialogues extensively find they may develop novel applications of existing abilities and steadily grow in knowledge & power with effort, independent of their own paradigm. This can no more than triple their overall level of advancement, but any progression done on their own will raise this cap. Should said mage no longer be allied, the wearer may strip this power at will, like a dream dissolving at break of day.
Really powerful. The problem is that most of the value of this option is in the long term and we have a really tight schedule if we want to clear the Temple before the Apocryphal comes back online. I don't think even using this to unlock Sorcery, which Rihaku mentioned was the Wreath's option which provide the most power, is a particularly efficient use of Arete when it comes to giving us the power we need to defeat the Temple. And using it for Sorcery is redundant with Edeldross.

Of course, SAVE gang wants to use the Arete we save to get the Ring, which is mostly potential also and introduce the potential danger of the contest of primacy. So, eh...
[ ] Magnitude - Improves the magnitude of the +All Stats buff and the strength of blasts and barriers created. Simple, yet undeniably effective.
Simple yet effective, indeed. Stats are always good.
[ ] Control - Improves the tightness and consistency with which he can direct Edeldross in all forms, allowing for more precise buffs on both self and allies, as well as better placement of effects. May unlock more complex applications of Edeldross.
Could be really helpful but "may unlock more complex applications of Edeldross" is kind of a black box. Make it more reliable for us to buff Gisena, though.
[ ] Experimentation - Focus entirely on developing a specific pseudo-grace maximized to augment Hunger's physical capabilities. This will operate seamlessly in addition to the Edeldross +All Stats buff, but will override that buff where its benefit is greater. Estimated Chance of success: ~70-80%, can be improved with participation. +Gisena.
Presumably the bonus of that pseudo-grace would be better than the additional improvement to All Stats from Magnitude, otherwise it would make no sense to pick this. So it's a question of if it's worth the slight chance that we don't manage to unlock the pseudo-grace and losing the extra buffs to Gisena and stronger barriers and blasts. Also the option give a +Gisena, not that that's particularly relevant right now.

You know, I think I'm fine with any reasonable plan winning this vote. So, I'm selling my vote. Tag me and tell me what you want me to vote for, I'll vote for that and, in exchange, you'll owe me a marker for a future vote.
 
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[X] Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath
[X] Experimentation


My concern, however, is that magical oriented picks and builds will be split between advancing Evening Sky and whatever magic system we select.

Actually, as long as Evening Sky keeps giving us picks that increase intelligence it seems like Philosopher's Wreath would in fact consolidate the option of advancing it and what magic system we select, as long as we choose one we already have. Since it increases the rate of advancement by our intelligence X 100% and since we know, atleast for surgecrafting, we'll advance even without picks or arete spent it seems like a good source of synergy that lets us do both.
 
if we aren't willing to take it here, we will also not be willing to carefully arrange it as an option; it's perfectly valid to say it's not worth getting, but don't try to pretend we will come back for it.
New picks come up constantly and more things will be left untaken than not by far.
Yes, but that's all decided by the power and relevancy of the option in our current circumstances. Saying we won't get it ever again if we don't get it now is beyond hyperbolic.
Are you not afraid of the potential anti-synergy or redundancy from taking Edeldross?
Yeah, definitely don't want Sorcery to win that. Let's just improve Edeldross, that does enough for us.
A lot of people really liked Inksky because it made Evening Sky more relevant. Well, getting Philosopher's Wreath would certainly make our mantle relevant again! The Protection and Charisma functions of Evening Sky have been crippled by Uttermost, but the Evening Sky is still the source of our "magical" options! Getting PW gives Evening something important to do, and potentially unlocks further advancements in the Intelligence, Magic, and teamwork categories, allowing Evening Sky to be more relevant in the future by giving it options that aren't nerfed by Uttermost!
But that doesn't really make the Evening Sky more important though, it makes Surgecraft more important while the Evening Sky gets the same narrative importance as always. In fact, considering the loss of Inksky using the Evening Sky to enhance Edeldross can be seen as kind of perverse? It's definitely not what anyone wanted when they expressed their desire for the Evening Sky to get more of the spotlight.
us not taking it is exactly my point and we will stop fighting mages the moment we leave the Voyaging Realm, which could easily be right after the Temple
Sure, my wording was strong. But it's still absurd to claim we will actually take the option later on the basis of a plan we make now.
But never is kind of very strong wording though; saying that something will be lost forever is much more devastating than saying we may not see it for a while. We won't close ourselves out from any options if we don't pick Wreath here.
 
Another thing to consider...

A lot of people really liked Inksky because it made Evening Sky more relevant. Well, getting Philosopher's Wreath would certainly make our mantle relevant again! The Protection and Charisma functions of Evening Sky have been crippled by Uttermost, but the Evening Sky is still the source of our "magical" options! Getting PW gives Evening something important to do, and potentially unlocks further advancements in the Intelligence, Magic, and teamwork categories, allowing Evening Sky to be more relevant in the future by giving it options that aren't nerfed by Uttermost!
Yeah, that's another major reason I want Philosopher's Wreath.

Aside from making our allies much better at magic stuff, at breaking glass ceilings (or just speeding things up), of being able to broaden powers and find novel usages... It also means finally getting another upgrade for the Evening Sky.

It's our most neglected artifact, and that feels sad.

Especially since that by itself sometimes gets used as a reason to not upgrade it; "It's weak, why bother" or "Well, we have all these other artifacts we can be focusing on instead! We can't spread ourselves too thin, right?" And so it never gets picked. And so it continues to recursively not get picked because it doesn't get picked. =/
 
COME ON PEOLE, LETS PLAY AS FUCKING SAURON AND THE TYRANT WE WERE MEANT TO BE!!!

My post just so happened to be at the very bloody bottom and my fear of it being left in the dust grows ever closer so I might as well post again to get y'all attention again and to generate arete from my posts!!!

Bassicly were out to go and fucking DESTROY THEIR CIVILIZATION. For crying out loud we got a fucking Evangalion Mech. were going to go wreck them if we survive. My point being is that the very base of their entire civilization is about to get curb stomped by us and a fucking Mech, what a power play.

Better yet, we ARE THE TYRANT. we can't mitigate shit from this because of Uttermost and we were given options to practice interacting with society and humans with it to learn from them. and how to deal with the curse. Now I have a question for you, would yo rather waste an action interacting with peasent folk to get experience or CONQUER THIS WHOLE CIVILIZATION.

If we actually succed in freeing the ring they will loose their source of power, their wealth, and bassicly be wiped out by the hungry adventurers at their very bloody doorstep. We the TYRANT seeing this, what should LORD HUNGER do? I Say if were going to be a tyrant, might as well play it so with the moon Civ.

You think their going to say no to being ruled by us like a tyrant after we destroy their very power source and with hungry vulture adventurers waiting at their doorstep? Fuck no they'll bow their heads to us after seeing enoblement and us giving them the alternative, US.

I am an advocate for playing as the cruel tyrant and sowing dissent in our enemies. if we wish to play as tyrant in the future I say we do so with the moon Civ to get experience as the enoblement is the best option to give us that loyalty shit and to show we can protect them like the ring did for them
Technically enslave but you get my point.

COME ON PEOPLE, VOTE FOR ENOBLEMENT AND HAVE LORD HUNGER BECOME FUCKING SAURON BUT BLOOD AND GOOD!!!


everyone has their beginnings, for us as the tyrant, it will start with our first encounter with civilization and our first enemies.

First this world, then the rest of the stars...
 
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It's not that I don't want Ruling Ring. It's just that starting a contest is innately risky. Once we are strong enough to deal with the temple, I would personally be a lot less worried about it.

It's not a 1 to 1 comparison, but if a civilization that uses a ring for power is kicking our ass, imagine if the contest has us fight a master of a ring? All that power into a single individual.
 
If taken in conjunction with Augment Dominion: Blood or Exalted Spirit, you could theoretically get Verschlengorge to about Rank 6.8, maybe 6.9 given enough time and effort. That would take considerably longer than a day, of course. But getting him to Rank, say, 5.5 would be easy.
Augment Dominion: Blood + Sublime Transfusion is definitely interesting... a Rank 5, Rank 6 Verschlengorge can't do much in the Temple. But if he were almost Rank 7, could he perhaps blow the whole edifice down?
Rank 7 is somewhat marginal to do it in one stroke - Rank 8 would have a solid chance - but invasion of the premises and widespread destruction is on the menu for sure!

So here's the plan. Grab Sublime Transfusion, and either Exalted Spirit or Augment Dominion: Blood. Spend a couple more days to get Vers to Rank 6.8.

Head over to the Temple (hella quickly, since we pimped our ride, which makes up for some of the time lost), then smash our way inside.

Having a Rank 6.8 Giant Mecha on our side is a much bigger boost to our overall ability to take on the temple than Philosopher's Wreath can provide.

It's also an opportunity to grab Exalted Spirit and have it directly improve our chances of clearing the temple, if you're mostly voting for Wreath because it's a "rare upgrade".
 
So here's the plan. Grab Sublime Transfusion, and either Exalted Spirit or Augment Dominion: Blood. Spend a couple more days to get Vers to Rank 6.8.

Head over to the Temple (hella quickly, since we pimped our ride, which makes up for some of the time lost), then smash our way inside.

Having a Rank 6.8 Giant Mecha on our side is a much bigger boost to our overall ability to take on the temple than Philosopher's Wreath can provide.

It's also an opportunity to grab Exalted Spirit and have it directly improve our chances of clearing the temple, if you're mostly voting for Wreath because it's a "rare upgrade".

The problem is how we deal with rank 6.8 Astral enemies Verschlengorge healed to that magnitude would attract.
 
Yes, but that's all decided by the power and relevancy of the option in our current circumstances. Saying we won't get it ever again if we don't get it now is beyond hyperbolic.
psychological attachment to certain build paths and getting used to saying no and focusing on the flaws of certain options are more important to the outcome of a vote than the actual power and relevancy of the options
questers are very, very far from being rational actors.
 
Yeah. No. I'm with @BrainInAJar with this one concerning Evening Sky.

The argument that PW makes ES relevant again falls flat when PW doesn't inherently make ES better the way InkSky did.

PW is ES offloading it's responsibility to another System. Whether it be Soul Invocation, Noble Praxis, etc other lesser systems. It's literally sacrificing more of its relevancy to make something else better.

Just not into sacrificing even more of ES like that.
 
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