Insurance doesn't have to be invoked, and indeed shouldn't, in order to do it's job. You don't crash your car to get your money's worth before the end of a fiscal year.
That analogy doesn't work much here though. Us not stopping just cause FoR hasn't triggered yet is kinda the reason we kept piling on the risk with such casual abandon. This is us forfeiting FoR for a greater overall buff to our main battle form, reducing the risk of grievous injuries in the future since we'll use most of our power up-front rather than having an emergency reserve we never use, so it's more like... selling your car before your insurance is expired to buy a monster truck I guess?
 
Stranglethorn gives benefits when we're fully committed to completing a goal, and our desire to take down the temple definitely qualifies. It's also just an obscene amount of stats. Like, wow.
The second I'll give, but the first only becomes relevant over much longer timespans than we'll spend in the Temple. And in the immediate power department there are other options that are better and suit our build more - Agi plays a major (maybe the most important) role in how we kill stuff. So it's still more of a long-term option.
 
I'd like to also point out that just because we managed to beat the one who can reasonably be called as one of the Strongest if not the Strongest Outrider (First Blade and all yikes) does not necessarily mean that we can no longer materially benefit from the Middle Temple area. Varnier was considered as an Overwhelming Opponent, not someone who stood +/- 20% away from Hunger's strength. Varnier is still considerably an Outlier.

We got a lot of exp from baiting his ass with Age and Treachery, but that only means that we've managed to somewhat close the gap between Hunger and the other Notable Outriders. There's no pressing need stating that we already need to begin incursions into the Inner Temple, alongside whatever difficulty and complication spikes the Inner Temple may possess.
 
I am getting tempted by Rank 5, that literally improves everything we do.
Follow the build Rihaku posited, FoR Rank 6 slaughterhouse! Definitely great.

We should be able to finish the temple with that strategy. Rihaku doesn't seem to put it on equal power as the other builds though, maybe due to Rank Versatility.

Overall in terms of power it looks like

Uttermost > Inheritor > Kinslayer > Stranglethorn

Stranglethorn's main power all being locked up in its special ability (If we could exploit now it would be the strongest). Inheritor's ability to train Rank manually may be its greatest benefit, however. No need to fight horrible monsters with %death to grind rank anymore!
 
Inserted tally
[X] Feat: Kinslayer
[X] True Maiming

Adhoc vote count started by DkArthas on Jun 18, 2020 at 9:15 AM, finished with 412 posts and 50 votes.
 
We know what we're really here for: the commemorative badges. And Kinslayer is just one letter away from... Kingslayer, which we should get as soon as possible, lest people start doubting our story about the Tyrant.
 
You know, I wonder if the original Cursebearer vote in EFB faltered because it was Combat Class and not Progression Class. Certainly, it bears to consider if Cursebearers have other capabilities that let them advance beyond their remittances? Since a Combat Class can reach High Cursebearer even without Praxis if it would be incalculably difficult to do so.
 
Fuck it, voting for both.
[X] Punctured Soul
[X] Hunger - Stranglethorn
[X] The Ring of Power - Inheritor
-[X] The Unerring
[X] Fierce Quickening

I will only keep voting for Inheritor if we get the The Unerring though, I have no interest in the other two.
 
That analogy doesn't work much here though. Us not stopping just cause FoR hasn't triggered yet is kinda the reason we kept piling on the risk with such casual abandon. This is us forfeiting FoR for a greater overall buff to our main battle form, reducing the risk of grievous injuries in the future since we'll use most of our power up-front rather than having an emergency reserve we never use, so it's more like... selling your car before your insurance is expired to buy a monster truck I guess?
No, I agree that we shouldn't forfeit it. I was responding to someone saying because we never invoked it that the choice and Arete was wasted.
 
You know, I wonder if the original Cursebearer vote in EFB faltered because it was Combat Class and not Progression Class. Certainly, it bears to consider if Cursebearers have other capabilities that let them advance beyond their remittances? Since a Combat Class can reach High Cursebearer even without Praxis if it would be incalculably difficult to do so.
Maybe they find ways to kludge together their own imitations of Progression (made from divine corpses or something) and strive to improve upon those. Not as good as the original, but better than nothing.
 
In some ways the Librarian may be the best passenger... his arrogance has less room to deal damage with the Doom of the Tyrant already present, and his capabilities are immense. Think how much deadlier Hunger would be with even a fraction of the Librarian's teleportation, invisibility, mental / soul attacks, summoning, etc! And he directly gives +INT! What a broken character, Age and Treachery indeed!

The Librarian would also be a source of interesting conflict, while offering more than enough utility to offset the practical concerns.

How anyone could read this and not immediately want it, I have no idea.

[X] The Ring of Power - Inheritor (3 picks, 2 Arete)
-[X] The Librarian
[X] Fierce Quickening
[X] True Maiming

Look, remember the Mage Lord build? It cost 3 picks and 14 Arete to get us a high-tier and versatile Soul Evocation and improved growth rate with that Soul Evocation. Inheritor: Librarian gets us the same for 3 picks and 2 Arete. It's effectively 12 free Arete, for the cost of some mental contamination that Rihaku states here will not have much effect at all. The 10% rank penalty can be offset by our new using our new ability to train rank.

The Mage Lord build also took five days to hit enough proficiency to be worthwhile. Inheritor:Librarian gets us to that level immediately. Oh, and will you look at this:

If the Middle represented so great an increase in sophistication over the Outer, then what did that bode for the Ring's guardian itself? For all that his rate of progression had been absurd, was he growing strong enough, fast enough, in the fields that mattered against so versatile and well-resourced a foe? This was no single monster, to be baited and easily hunted. It was an entire civilization bent to the purpose of keeping their Ring imprisoned and extracting its value thereby. Was his own power too linear, too physically focused, to overcome them?

Would you look at that. That, looks like a hint to me. Our power right now is too focused on Raw physical stats and sword better. We'll need much more versatility if we want the best chances of victory in this Temple.

Remember how much everyone was freaking out over fighting Vanrier? How we were all panicking? Over what we were going to do? Imagine if we had access to teleportation. That's a guaranteed retreat if we can pull it off in time! Or what about invisibility? Vanrier didn't have a Gisena equivalent to do magic detection for him, and you can't hit what you can't see. Or what if we pulled out the Librarian's Mind and Soul attacks? Remember how Hunger got blasted down by that abhorrent word even through his Evening Sky? Vanrier had that fault line in his soul, if we had been able to directly attack that we would have been able to win much more easily.

Not to mention that Inheritor:Librarian gives us increased INT. You see that thing Hunger did this update, using his invulnerable ring to deflect the attack even though none of us thought of that? That's our protagonist being smarter then us. What if he could get even smarter?

Point is, the Magus was a super-powerful character. We only won against him thanks to Gisena's ult and our relative physical superiority. Now imagine what those same Magus powers could do, when the opposition doesn't have a Nullity ult and all that magical power is backed up by the massively greater physical stats of Hunger.
 
Look, remember the Mage Lord build? It cost 3 picks and 14 Arete to get us a high-tier and versatile Soul Evocation and improved growth rate with that Soul Evocation. Inheritor: Librarian gets us the same for 3 picks and 2 Arete. It's effectively 12 free Arete, for the cost of some mental contamination that Rihaku states here will not have much effect at all. The 10% rank penalty can be offset by our new using our new ability to train rank.
It also comes with some crazy stats! Magus seems more like 'The Strategist' from Terrascape, if my read is right.

Honestly the only way Mage Lord could have been balanced against it if Hunger's own Soul Evocation was just that good.
 
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Seeing True Maiming and Stranglethorn winning together deeply hurts my soul. Increasing value of CON and decreasing value of CON in a single vote, that's just horrid and makes me hope for a consolidation.
 
Seeing True Maiming and Stranglethorn winning together deeply hurts my soul. Increasing value of CON and decreasing value of CON in a single vote, that's just horrid and makes me hope for a consolidation.
True Maiming isn't (that) bad even with Stranglethorn IMO, although certainly somewhat antisynergistic.

Really it's the safest option with every build bar Unerring, and Unerring can go Lingering Exhaustion.
 
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As a descendant of the Forebear and the inheritor of his Blade, we should carry his legacy with dignity. We don't get exhausted, just... slightly less enthusiastic.
 
As a descendant of the Forebear and the inheritor of his Blade, we should carry his legacy with dignity. We don't get exhausted, just... slightly less enthusiastic.

That's why we should pick his Bearing right after Stranglethorn! Think how badass it would be to just tank someone's ultimate attack, and not even blink our one eye (since we took Rune King to apply To Shatter Heaven to rank growth and blood magic, assuming it retroactively applies) or alternatively our second eye (because depth perception and two eye options)
 
One negative trend we see sometimes in these quests is when posters (intentionally or not) create a strawman to argue against in order to oppose an option and then end up believing their own strawman. It's bad for one's own enjoyment of the quest and bad for the thread as well! If you want to effectively oppose an option, far better to use the most generous interpretation and yet still rebut it anyway!

As a descendant of the Forebear and the inheritor of his Blade, we should carry his legacy with dignity. We don't get exhausted, just... slightly less enthusiastic.

Was the Forebear really enthusiastic about anything, though? Grimly determined is more like it!

Look, remember the Mage Lord build? It cost 3 picks and 14 Arete to get us a high-tier and versatile Soul Evocation and improved growth rate with that Soul Evocation. Inheritor: Librarian gets us the same for 3 picks and 2 Arete. It's effectively 12 free Arete, for the cost of some mental contamination that Rihaku states here will not have much effect at all. The 10% rank penalty can be offset by our new using our new ability to train rank.

Linear Halo offers faster progression than To Shatter Heaven by a very good margin, and that rate of progression further scales with Hunger's physical stats. It's not quite comparable, though Inheritor being a 3-pick Defining A does boost its power significantly.

Also being invisible would not impede Vanreir's thrusts! Still, Librarian is a great option and very powerful.

That's why we should pick his Bearing right after Stranglethorn! Think how badass it would be to just tank someone's ultimate attack, and not even blink our one eye (since we took Rune King to apply To Shatter Heaven to rank growth and blood magic, assuming it retroactively applies) or alternatively our second eye (because depth perception and two eye options)

It does retroactively apply, yeah. The only question is whether you have the political will to take Rune King...
 
It does retroactively apply, yeah. The only question is whether you have the political will to take Rune King...

Welp, all aboard the One-Eyed Train! You'll see me in a few updates, arguing vehemently that Hunger would in fact prefer to not have depth perception.
 
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One negative trend we see sometimes in these quests is when posters (intentionally or not) create a strawman to argue against in order to oppose an option and then end up believing their own strawman. It's bad for one's own enjoyment of the quest and bad for the thread as well! If you want to effectively oppose an option, far better to use the most generous interpretation and yet still rebut it anyway!
Yes, this, so much this.

Plus, why offer a choice if one is so obviously better than another?
 
I'm kind of torn about the Inheritor options; Vanreir is kind of a more compelling character than the Magus; but his Evocation seems less useful and finding him interesting doesn't mean I want to deal with his stuff. His mental contamination would also dampen the whole "Age and Treachery" thing, which I don't want.

Also I don't want Inheritor in general because I want to save that goddamn Arete. We did so well saving up for a while there! We can do it again.

For Uttermost, Rihaku has already confirmed that Rage has been lowkey helping us in the background a lot by reducing death percentages by an order of magnitude. Given the tendencies of this quest; it's a great reason not to give it up. You don't remove your seatbealt just because you haven't needed it, after all. I also think that getting less Luck and less Wisdom to be terrible long term no matter what.

True Maiming is winning right now; so time to strategically vote:
[X] Lingering Exhaustion
[X] Feat
: Kinslayer

Sorry, Stranglethorn. I don't know if we will ever pick you. But needs must.
 
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