Remove ads

A Simple Transaction I

Reader mode
If Heedless falls through, I would probably (at time of writing) go for Balance. We could go hunt a Knight Captain for rank gains or something. It's unfortunate that stats gains seems to make it even harder to gain rank, so we can't go and like hunt the Dreadbeast for Rank (?).
 
The first half of this vote is actually quite important, as many topics of potentially vital interest come up... consider well before deciding if you want to throw that out in favor of maybe unlocking some Advancements you could get later anyway! Studying the Blood has a fairly marginal chance of leading to any power today.

Gerrou said:
Hmm, possibly. I am open to any non-Heedless option, but Balance is admittedly not my first or even second choice. Mostly because I like the unique picks (Quickening/Evening Gown) from the other two and feel it would be a shame to miss both of them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Fair enough, some people prefer a few focused powers while others prefer to spread out! They're both aesthetically interesting options.

Simon_Jester said:
I think a lot of the appeal of Star-Blade Saint is that it strengthens Gisena; just upping the relationship another tier doesn't do that. So "Bloodslayer, Speak to Gisena" is not a viable compromise for people who want the Star-Blade Saint option.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Bloodslayer advances you down the path of Blood Progression, which can also lead to improving Gisena's blood buff!

Projectile said:
While Gisena and Letrizia were partying, Hunger Studied the Blood?

Do it for the edge.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It would make sense if he were any good at studying right now!

runeblue360 said:
My main issue with this build is that it just doesn't have any strong avenues for advancement. It's the power vote equivalent of a full stop, there are no further things to seek from here. This is an issue because, as we've quite clearly seen, we need to get enormously stronger if we ever want to resolve this Temple in a reasonable amount of time and defeat Bearic. We've only got a little more than a week and its clear our current path just won't cut it. Gisena's existing Nullity powers have proven sufficient, I'm skeptical more anti-magic will really change anything here.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

If you can actually beat the Temple, you'll likely be favored against Ber.

runeblue360 said:
That it's somewhat more immediately safe in the extremely short term does not make it the ideal build to tackle the Temple. Bloodslayer has a fair bit of power right now with Cuts, a huge amount of power as soon as we get our body back and then a +Progression to acquiring power within our existing theme. When looking at overall risk, this is naturally better.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Certainly something to consider. +Progression shouldn't be underestimated! Doing what Bloodmight's good at is a wise path...
 
Rihaku said:
The first half of this vote is actually quite important, as many topics of potentially vital interest come up... consider well before deciding if you want to throw that out in favor of maybe unlocking some Advancements you could get later anyway! Studying the Blood has a fairly marginal chance of leading to any power today.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is an important piece of information! I'm a Letrizia partisan but the Gisena option unlocks info about Hunger's backstory. Hunger deets are too juicy to ignore!
[X] Speak to Gisena
[X] Star-Blade Saint
 
runeblue360 said:
*chef kiss*

Exactly, right!? They might not even be totally out of reach since this build is going to shred its way through the Temple and finally put us on a proper power curve, letting us actually take advantage of our existing resources and +Progression rather than just hoping for survival and potential. Plus, we can empower our entire party with further Blood Advancements, maybe fix ourselves up some.

As for Gisena Gang, we can likely make her much stronger with further Blood Advancements and just imagine the teasing we'll get when she watches a vampire movie! They're the most fuckable monsters for a reason.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Now we just have to invest a bit into vampiric powers! This reminds of EFB, when we could give other people our power by giving them our blood. Probably well within Hunger's reach, and would greately empower both Gisena and Letrizia.

Would also cement us as the elder of an convenant, with our secret wraith form, and form of pure power.

Now i'm really into this build...time to finish my omake!
 
LordOfMurder said:
This is a pretty ridiculous vote for one of the chief architects involved in the form of rage vote winning.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It was painful for me too and I'd have probably flip flopped around a bunch more but then Rihaku gave me an aesthetic to make it all coherent in my mind. Now, I'm ready to fight. That said, while I defected from Gisena Gang, I'm not going to be super upset if the Dress wins.

Simon_Jester said:
Firstly, we don't really know that; there may be other things it chains into. A lot of our advancement options were only revealed after prerequisites were met. Secondly...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Sure, we don't know. So why risk it? Even if there are further advancements, it's extremely unlikely the advancements offered will be nearly as efficient as something we've got a +Progression in, especially when Rihaku's already pointed our Blood Advancements as being extremely powerful. When we need lots of power right away to defeat the Temple, we should be focusing on options that make every fight we get into as efficient as possible when it comes to marginal power gained.

Simon_Jester said:
The problem is that Gisena's powers won't work as well as the magic they're pitted against gets stronger. She needs to scale too, or we start losing one of our big advantages.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Gisena's powers were strong enough to work on the Magus, who was a resident of the Inner Sphere and the one trusted to cull the many, many wacky and varied adventurers they face. Moreover, she can quite well scale up through the powers of Blood and that's something that needs to seperate investment if we turn it into our area of focus. We'd be able to get stronger together and in a way that's more holistic than +Nullity and +Protection.

No point in nullification if you're not even fast enough to hit anyone with it.

Simon_Jester said:
Furthermore, voting for huge increases in power specifically to upgrade ourselves so we can get back into the fight quickly sounds to me like exactly what we need to do to resolve this and strengthen ourselves.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

If you want to get back into the fight quickly, then vote Bloodslayer! There are absolutely none quicker. Even the Dress needs to wait a few days to get rid of Exhausted but the Ring can fight even under the adverse conditions of its debuff while working on capabilities that get rid of that debuff will likely advance our general regeneration powers.
 
Last edited:
Given that Rihaku just clarified that even with equal stats a build that takes Cuts would beat even a build with a 1 rank advantage 90% of the time. This puts into stark relief how much weaker heedless is with it's meager 0.5 rank increase.

Saint not only provides the most immediate power while we're in second form and in the most dangerous part of the dungeon but the synergy with Gisena and pseudo grace it provides could lead into a sorcery tree further down the line.
 
[X] Speak to Gisena
[X] Bloodslayer

The antisynergy is yuck, but I'll go with it because there will surely be options later that tie it up.
LordOfMurder said:
Given that Rihaku just clarified that even with equal stats a build that takes Cuts would beat even a build with a 1 rank advantage 90% of the time. This puts into stark relief how much weaker heedless is with it's meager 0.5 rank increase.

Saint not only provides the most immediate power while we're in second form and in the most dangerous part of the dungeon but the synergy with Gisena and pseudo grace it provides could lead into a sorcery tree further down the line.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
He didn't say 'Thousand Cuts would beat a 1 Rank differece 90% of the time', he said:
Rihaku said:
Note that a 90% chance of victory, given equal stats and a 1 stage difference, is overwhelming, not unwinnable. For example, what would you say the odds are of victory for:

A) A pure stats build with Thousand Cuts
B) The exact same build without Thousand Cuts

We would expect build A) to win via either alpha striking or being able to play a defensive attrition strategy over 90% of the time, so a 1 rank disparity would not, at this stage, be sufficient for B to defeat A. Now, if we were at high Ranks rather than Mid...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That Thousand Cuts build would offer greater than 90% victory chances (90% being overwhelming), so it would be more powerful than the Pre-Eminence build. So it would be like 60-40 favored for Thousand cuts, not 90-10 favored for Thousand Cuts.
 
Last edited:
[X] Heedless War
[X] Speak to Letrizia

It'll be pretty hard to collect all the picks needed for the Ruling Ring, so let's take a step here.
 
runeblue360 said:
Gisena's powers were strong enough to work on the Magus, who was a resident of the Inner Sphere and the one trusted to cull the many, many wacky and varied adventurers they face. Moreover, she can quite well scale up through the powers of Blood and that's something that needs to seperate investment if we turn it into our area of focus. We'd be able to get stronger together and in a way that's more holistic than +Nullity and +Protection.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Magus turned Hunger's thoughts into static, bled him from his orifices, drove him to his knees, and flayed at his very soul by speaking a single power word. The reason the fight didn't end right there was because of Gisena, yes, but even her focused efforts in countering it directly still let him do that.
If we run into someone analogous but just with simply more oomph, which we're very likely going to considering that even the archers have space time folding soul invocation magics now (of which Gisena couldn't actually stop without pulling out the big guns I should note, she did an admirable job slowing it down but it was still growing in danger to a stage that would have killed us), then we just don't have a counter to someone saying that word again.
 
Shard said:
[X] Speak to Gisena
[X] Bloodslayer

The antisynergy is yuck, but I'll go with it because there will surely be options later that tie it up.

He didn't say 'Thousand Cuts would beat a 1 Rank differece 90% of the time', he said:

That Thousand Cuts build would offer greater than 90% victory chances (90% being overwhelming), so it would be more powerful than the Pre-Eminence build. So it would be like 60-40 favored for Thousand cuts, not 90-10 favored for Thousand Cuts.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That doesn't follow at all. He compared a basic build with Thousand Cuts to a build without Thousand Cuts. Giving an additional 1 rank to build B was insufficient to overcome the advantage of Thousand cuts.

I don't see how you can use his example argue that Rank is preferable to cuts.
 
Zampano said:
That doesn't follow at all. He compared a basic build with Thousand Cuts to a build without Thousand Cuts. Giving an additional 1 rank to build B was insufficient to overcome the advantage of Thousand cuts.

I don't see how you can use his example argue that Rank is preferable to cuts.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I.. didn't argue that? I was pointing out that the statement 'Thousand Cuts vs 1 Rank is 90% favored for Thousand Cuts' was incorrect.
 
I tried to understand why so many people were voting for Heedless War and I think I finally get it: they clearly are cultivators from EFB's world who follow the Dao of the Reckless Fool! (308 Words)

The Reckless Fool

"Small men for the sake of gain have sacrificed their persons; scholars for the sake of fame have done so; great officers, for the sake of their families; and sagely men, for the sake of the kingdom. These several classes, with different occupations, and different reputations, have agreed in doing injury to their nature and sacrificing their persons [...] Bo-yi died at the foot of Shou-yang to maintain his fame, and the robber Zhi died on the top of Dong-ling in his eagerness for gain. Their deaths were occasioned by different causes, but they equally shortened their lives and did violence to their nature; why must we approve of Bo-yi, and condemn the robber Zhi?"

-The Zhuangzi

The flame that burned half as long burned twice as bright. Such is the philosophy embodied by this Dao. To aim ever higher, risking it all to gain ever greater power, and in the end to be consumed by the flames of one's ambition, such is the inevitable fate of all those foolish enough to embrace this Dao.

But if one such managed to survive, and realize their ambitions, their Glory would be without equal in this world. The wise might say that such a dream shall forever remain in the realm of imagination, but never shall a fool be chained by wisdom.

First Reality Effect - Ambition: The character's speed of cultivation is greatly diminished. In exhange, whenever they survive a situation that endanger the continuation of their existence, they advance their cultivation by a significant amount. The greater the risk involved, the greater the amount of cultivation progress obtained this way.

Second Reality Effect - Sacrificial Pyre: By consuming one cultivation base, the character increase the future rewards provided by Ambition. The greater the amount of cultivation progress sacrificed, the greater the increase in the benefits provided by Ambition.
 
Last edited:
Shard said:
I.. didn't argue that? I was pointing out that the statement 'Thousand Cuts vs 1 Rank is 90% favored for Thousand Cuts' was incorrect.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
After rereading I understand what it was saying better, thanks. So basically a 1 rank difference grants an overwhelming advantage but the difference between the same build where one takes cuts and one doesn't is greater than 90% so even if the non cuts build had a 1 rank advantage the cuts build would still be somewhat favored right?

This means that when comparing the superior combat stats of Saint and cuts to the weaker stats and only a 0.5 rank advantage of Heedless we can probably conclude that Saint has an overwhelming advantage in combat power.
 
Is Rank really even a shield of safety considering people are going to vote to fight peer opponents anyway since that's the only way to advance?
With how quickly we advance it's not like even Hunger is interested in fighting things lower ranked than himself right now.
In the world simulation Rank's fantastic, in this specific ladder climb where he's making a point of fighting things at or above his weight class no matter what his weight class happens to be at the moment since that's the fastest way to grow the calculus changes...
 
runeblue360 said:
Gisena's powers were strong enough to work on the Magus, who was a resident of the Inner Sphere and the one trusted to cull the many, many wacky and varied adventurers they face
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In addition to Eno's excellent recap of Gisena's importance to our survival after the Magus ragdolled Hunger, I want to point out an un-challenged assumption in your post: You're assuming that the Magus is as hard as fights will get.

The Magus was "trusted" to do rounds in the outer culling fields. That isn't exactly a prestigious position. Being stuck with the job "groundskeeper" when your soul evocation title is the "Librarian" is not indicative of high esteem. The Magus might not be a good indicator of what fights in the Inner Level will be like. If he is so strong, why isn't he cooling his heels inside?

It seems much more likely to me that the Magus does not hold a position of esteem in his society. He is either too weak or too unimportant to make someone else do the menial labor of culling adventurers. Note that there are patrols & outriders in the middle layer; the Magus was clearly not expected to hold the line against every possible incursion.

Being hard-pressed by the Magus seems to me evidence that we are completely unprepared for the Inner Layer.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
Blood seems quite a bit more appealing personally.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
My problems with Blood, let me tell you some:
  • The upgrade doesn't actually kick in until we make it back to camp & sleep out of our spirit form. That leaves us partially paralyzed while trying to sneak through both the Middle Layer & Outer Layers of the Temple
  • The upgrade gives even less gravitas to 2nd form and form-of-rage. Not only do we see the transformations less often, they are comparatively much less effective. So someone who is kicking our butt even with Quickening will be able to thrash the 2nd form. What an anemic transformation: "This is my true form, but it's a little slower and much more fragile so please don't hit me too hard."
  • Future advancements that add synergy between Quickening & transformations also change the nature of the transformation to include blood. That is not necessarily an upgrade. Having blood in all our transformation stages makes us weaker against attacks that are uniquely effective against blood. One of the most appealing features of our transformation to me, right now, is that it totally changes our fighting style. I'd hate to lose the individuality of each distinct transformation.

That said, I prefer Quickening to Zweilhander and DEFINITELY prefer Quickening to Ring. So I won't be too upset if it wins.
 
[ ] Bloodslayer - Lingering Paralysis, Quickening, A Thousand Cuts

The more I look at Bloodslayer, the more it's tempting me with its blood-red color and power of 25 +s. The one big disadvantage is the anti-synergy with other Forms, which was also the reason I voted for Gown.

But, being real: it is probably THE build our suicidal playstyle needs. Overwhelming power, tripled regeneration and halved wound penalties, all in one package. Helps us both survive the fights, and deal with consequences of the victory.

We actually won't need to escape from the Temple grounds after every fight!

On that note, it is the only way to deal with our debuff outright, making it the most time-efficient option by far. We can probably return to human form, immediately go back to grinding, and farm enough Echos for "permanent" stats before the end of the day to rival other builds. Potential option for [ ] Something Else, right there.

Looking at it that way, Bloodslayer doesn't seem to be lacking in potential even compared to the greedy Heedless War. It just archives the end result differently - by aggressively slaughtering all that stand in his path, coinciding with Hunger's first and most important ability - reaching heaven through violence.

Anti-synergy burns though. To make peace with nerfing the other Forms, let's see what we can salvage:
  • Second Stage - can still be used tactically. Hunger dies, leaves his fleshy body as a decoy, retreats/repositions for a surprise attack by moving underground. Or tricks the enemy into thinking it is his last form by "running away", before suddenly going into FOR and attacking. Etc.
  • Form of Rage - remains viable, if much less powerful than it could be with this expenditure.
  • By continuing to progress in blood-related studies, which a good chunk of voters seems to be behind, we might be able to extend the buff to the other Forms in the future?
  • Hunger won't need to kill himself for power anymore! Sad, I liked that part
 
runeblue360 said:
My main issue with this build is that it just doesn't have any strong avenues for advancement. It's the power vote equivalent of a full stop, there are no further things to seek from here. This is an issue because, as we've quite clearly seen, we need to get enormously stronger if we ever want to resolve this Temple in a reasonable amount of time and defeat Bearic. We've only got a little more than a week and its clear our current path just won't cut it. Gisena's existing Nullity powers have proven sufficient, I'm skeptical more anti-magic will really change anything here.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Personally, I like that its a short side trip, without opening a 6th avenue for obvious extensions. It doesn't open up another dangling thread to argue about. If getting closer to finishing the Ring business wasn't far more risky than I am willing to tolerate, I'd also be willing to support that as well.

[X] Speak to Letrizia
[X] Star-Blade Saint

At this time, I think we've neglected Letty long enough. No need to let her feel entirely neglected.

Although I could be convinced to swap to talking to Gisena instead. I'm mostly just leery of doubling down on anything when there is no real way to predict which things we've missed out on will be more dangerous an omission.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top