A Simple Transaction I

I mean, yeah, the big benefit of Wait is that it's completely safe. But I don't think we can progress adequately without risk. Especially if we want to outpace Ber. The amount of risk for Stragglers is fine; far from suicidal.

LordOfMurder said:

This line killed all my motivation for arguing. Being a shitty writer and bad at writing reactions, I thought it'd be fine if I just argued at full strength. Hearing that despite a vote lead and at last notice superior argument power Immortal Regiment still lost after making it through days worth of consolidation to a build I considered the worst of our options was incredibly depressing. Feels bad man.

I mean I know every vote has to have a winner and a loser and I think on balance this system is better than standard voting, at least with the traditional system you know exactly how you lost.

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Yeah, that sucks. @runeblue360 did put 6k words in support of the option; shoutouts to him, that was impressive. I think there's no build vote that would ever make me saltier than the Destroyer Halo one in the Original AST though.

BrainInAJar said:

Yeah, that sucks. @runeblue360 did put 6k words in support of the option; shoutouts to him, that was impressive. I think there's no build vote that would ever make me saltier than the Destroyer Halo one in the Original AST though.

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Funnily enough, that's another vote I dedicated a probably unhealthy amount of time and effort into fighting for, way more than this one. Did you vote for All Paths as well? Because that might make you my nemesis.

And yeah, it sucks to lose a vote like that sometimes. But I turned down a Friday night with friends to work on this vote, spending literal hours writing that stuff so I don't think it's entirely unfair. I like these quests because it feels like investment is actually rewarded here, that you can individually make a difference with enough time and effort. Sometimes it isn't enough (see All Paths) and sometimes you're just outgunned but that's just the cost of doing business.

All you can do is try sharpen your skills and move on.

Wait and Hope also has other benefits.

- It let's us find out if the Temple opens at night and thus allows us to regularly check on Gisena and Liz. Which is important since Ber will be coming after us soon and he may target them.
- Gisena might be able remove the Call of the false moon debuff.
- Narratively, Mediating and reviewing his past battles and tactics will allow him to be more efficient, Hunger will think back on the mistakes he made and resolve to not make them again while also mentally preparing himself for the coming conflict.
- In case the Temple Opens at Night, Hunger will learn that he can retreat outside to rest safely in case he becomes exhausted or tired.

The option is essentially about Hunger preparing himself to be in top form and checking up on his companions before throwing himself into fights. I like the characterization.

DkArthas said:

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Well, I did say I would didn't I?

[X] Wait and Hope
[X] Swift as Death

Have no intention of letting this combination win, but I'm in favor of both Wait/Force and Stragglers/Swift. People have called out Swift as Death a trap option before, but I don't think it is for two main reasons:

-It grants the greatest short-term safety net of all options, in the ability to easily disengage from any fight we might want to avoid and a considerably quick (for the timespan required for exploration rather than fighting) regeneration. This make Stragglers (and any similar options we may be offered in the future) the most natural combination with this upgrade in my opinion.

-It increases considerably the threshold of an opponent's danger level we can survive (and kill if we added just a bit more offensive power to our build) before having to rely on Rage. It is certainly true that an opponent which could stand its ground against the Rage Form would find our Second Form a minor convenience at best even with Swift as Death, but there also exists opponent that without Swift might necessitate a Rage proc, and our main build focus should always be to use it sparingly and only when we can gain considerable benefit from doing so.

Also it might aid in exploring the dungeon with its phasing abilities, but that is just a minor thing I thought up while writing the rest.

runeblue360 said:

Did you vote for All Paths as well? Because that might make you my nemesis.

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I'm sorry, I think Throne of Stars was really cool and even let us continue Philosopher-King, but All Paths was stronger than me. I couldn't resist.

Yeah, I agree that Rihaku quests reward effort most of all. It's kind of why I think they are the most well executed from a technical standpoint. They really churn out engagement.

DkArthas said:

- It let's us find out if the Temple opens at night and thus allows us to regularly check on Gisena and Liz. Which is important since Ber will be coming after us soon and he may target them.
- Gisena might be able remove the Call of the false moon debuff.
- Narratively, Mediating and reviewing his past battles and tactics will allow him to be more efficient, Hunger will think back on the mistakes he made and resolve to not make them again while also mentally preparing himself for the coming battles.
- In case the Temple Opens at Night, Hunger will learn that he can retreat outside to rest safely in case he becomes exhausted.

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Rihaku said:

Hours more before nightfall, when he would test the gates once more. What now to do?

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We will check the Gates no matter what wins. The vote is for what we do in the meantime.

Speaking of 7AP option, taking Opalescence/Iridescence does unlock Pearlescence. Protection 7+ should be rather hilarious, especially once we trigger FOR and triple our Protection.

We'd have killing power of a particularly wet blanket, but we'd be rather invincible wet blanket.

BrainInAJar said:

@runeblue360 did put 6k words in support of the option; shoutouts to him, that was impressive. I think there's no build vote that would ever make me saltier than the Destroyer Halo one in the Original AST though.

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priest and I were and are still salty about losing OG Destroyer Halo in Terrascape, and that salt bled over into OG AST over Haloed Destroyer.

for what it's worth, I'm sorry those votes were so intense ;_;

TBH I can't find it in myself to feel salty if a vote won due to someone (or someones) putting in their blood and sweat to output 6k words (or equivalent in art/quality) in <24 hours. That's the point when I'd at least seriously consider swapping my vote for their option even if I wasn't in favor of it.

Microwave MKII said:

priest and I were and are still salty about losing OG Destroyer Halo in Terrascape, and that salt bled over into OG AST over Haloed Destroyer.

for what it's worth, I'm sorry those votes were so intense ;_;

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It's fine, this is just a forum game at the end of the day. I'm not going to say I'm not sad about the option I wanted to see winning, but that's just how it is at the end of the day. It's fairer than a system where one has nothing to show for their effort anyway.

Also, catching up with argumentation, I'm convinced to Wait, but still open to flipping/being persuaded on Brute Force/Peerless Shroud.

[X] Wait and Hope
[X] Brute Force

[X] Wait and Hope
[X] Brute Force

caution and thrift
I don't really see us as being on the type of clock where saving a day is worth much risk. Note that we already took the quick route here!!
Let's just consolidate our strength and push for one of those super duper exciting 7 Arete options

Also I believe Rihaku mentioned a while back that if we actually take Arete options like this then omake power will have less weight in deciding Arete spending build votes

Wolfy said:

Speaking of 7AP option, taking Opalescence/Iridescence does unlock Pearlescence. Protection 7+ should be rather hilarious, especially once we trigger FOR and triple our Protection.

We'd have killing power of a particularly wet blanket, but we'd be rather invincible wet blanket.

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I mean, just imagine -

"Oh come the fuck on", Ber swore as he dived upwards, watching tough ass mother fucker enter yet another form. Who fucking does that? Locking power in different forms just means your farm is slower! Ber glanced towards corpses of his newest .. allies as he run the calculation in his head. He could just bail the fuck out right now and nail this motherfucker once he farms for a month or two, but this asshole seemed to keep up with Ber's own isekai bullshit just fine. This smelled of an rival, and those tend to interrupt your happy farm time.

"Nah, fuck it, time to end this right here and now. Activation Code: Silmarillion. Overcharge all channels. Expend relic treasure #2. Gathering Storm - Start". Exerting his will Ber coated environment with his Rank, draining life itself from surroundings. For kilometres around him world itself died as he felt power surge through; at the same time his opponent rose from crater looking like particularly pissed off cloud of doom. Before his eyes, motherfucker coalescenced into thin black form - why did they always turn into that kind of shit?

It didn't matter. No speeches, no prolonged battle, just using his ultimate move before motherfucker could fully form of his.

"THOUSAND BEAMS!"

With a roar Bel swung his sword and unleashed his ultimate attack, septupling the power of his ordinary ultimate slash. Beam of pure light collided with black figure, erasing environment in an instant, and flowed without stopping until it burned the hole in the horizon, night sky itself being revealed as blue sky was torn apart.

And yet.

"Uh"

Black figure stood among devastation.

"Uh oh"

It didn't look any worse for wear.

"That wasn't supposed to happen"

The thing look upwards - it's eyes were twin suns, it's breath terror itself, it's skin so black that it seemed to consume very shadows around it. It's mouth opened, and the meaning itself screamed through reality, searing itself into Ber's mind for the rest of eternity.

"Not. Enough. Beam."

Current leading combination by votes is Stragglers + Brute Force, which is reasonably safe (unless we roll a bad encounter) and expends no Arete. These are also the options winning by line.
The next-highest votes are about 2/3 of the amount of votes.
Honestly, Stragglers+anything is a pretty decent combination.

Current vote count?

George said:

I don't really see us as being on the type of clock where saving a day is worth much risk. Note that we already took the quick route here!!
Let's just consolidate our strength and push for one of those super duper exciting 7 Arete options

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We need to kill something strong for a 7 Arete option anyway. Wait vs Stragglers won't change this. As I said, I think the extra pick is better because it can just straight up replace the 1 Arete for Form Of Rage if need it to. So we wouldn't be behind Arete-wise if we picked it. The risk seems very worth it to me, even if aren't on a clock.

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I honestly can't understand why people are voting for wait and hope. We'd be gaining 1 Arete, which while nifty is not the biggest thing. Meanwhile we'd be losing an effective 3 picks over the next two updates, 1 from the extra 1 hunting stragglers gives, and 2 from not having had a fight that turn.

Sure, one can make an argument for being able to leave if you think the doors will actually open, but that's about the only thing I can see, and if we're worried about having to outscale Ber, that means actually going out and killing monsters.

cheesyme said:

I honestly can't understand why people are voting for wait and hope. We'd be gaining 1 Arete, which while nifty is not the biggest thing. Meanwhile we'd be losing an effective 3 picks over the next two updates, 1 from the extra 1 hunting stragglers gives, and 2 from not having had a fight that turn.

Sure, one can make an argument for being able to leave if you think the doors will actually open, but that's about the only thing I can see, and if we're worried about having to outscale Ber, that means actually going out and killing monsters.

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Presumably because they don't want to get caught with their pants Second Form down.

BrainInAJar said:

We need to kill something strong for a 7 Arete option anyway. Wait vs Stragglers won't change this. As I said, I think the extra pick is better because it can just straight up replace the 1 Arete for Form Of Rage if need it to. So we wouldn't be behind Arete-wise if we picked it. The risk seems very worth it to me, even if aren't on a clock.

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I want to be ahead on Arete rather that not behind, though, as well as work on tempering Hunger's aggressive mindset.
I do think your points are valid, but despite them I prefer this approach - even if it's not until the fight after next that we can actually purchase a 7 Arete option.

It's all about trying to set things up so that when we finally have to use FOR, we can maximize the gains and have the most amount of safety in the aftermath. I don't want to be forced to use it again, we have been warned against that.

Putting aside matters of powerleveling and mechanics for a second, Wait and Hope is actually quite a meaningful choice. Remember our moonlit talk with Gisena?

Rihaku said:

"Now then..." she raised a hand to her forehead, brow furrowed. "The root of the matter is not that you want to exhaust yourself, nor do you have a problem relying on others. You're just used to always pushing forward and giving your all. Perhaps you used to have much greater power, and could easily withstand such a punishing pace?"

"Hmph." Perhaps she was right, not that he would admit it.

"In that case, the solution is simple! Until you've regained your former might, let us help you more. The being that saved you, he didn't do it for free, right? You're burdened with something. A form of metaphysical doom, beyond that suspiciously convenient 'Affliction' that you share with Letrizia's robot."

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Choosing Wait and Hope means we actually listened here. Instead of taking on everything ourselves, we decided to trust our companions in a dire situation. We didn't throw ourselves forward but instead took a step back to consider ourselves, to think before we do. That would be a sign of genuine growth and character development on his part, in a way that's beyond the remit of our progression. Isn't that worth something?

Wolfy said:

Presumably because they don't want to get caught with their pants Second Form down.

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Just going home after popping Second Form kind of misses out on the point of it, that being we can continue to fight. It's a waste. Especially when we will be avoiding other enemies anyway.

DkArthas said:

It's all about trying to set things up so that when we go finally have to use FOR, we can make maximize the gains and have the most amount of safety in the aftermath. I don't want to be forced to use it again, we have been warned against that.

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If you want to maximize gains, why not take the pick? Again, it's not further behind Arete-wise due to the costs of rage while having the potential to be far ahead. The risks are aren't much, so it's easily worth it.

runeblue360 said:

Choosing Wait and Hope means we actually listened here. Instead of taking on everything ourselves, we decided to trust our companions in a dire situation. We didn't throw ourselves forward but instead took a step back to consider ourselves, to think before we do. That would be a sign of genuine growth and character development on his part, in a way that's beyond the remit of our progression. Isn't that worth something?

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This would be a better argument if they were actually here. Again, we will return to the Gates anyway. We can trust their advice then. But we can't rely or listen to them now, they aren't here.

Hmm, another possible combo would be getting Dominion and Prominence. Since it's a 9AP expenditure we'd need to Wait and Hope, but they have a ton of synergy. As a flat power upgrade they should allow us to beat many enemies without having to resort to FOR, and FOR directly improves everything about that combo - tripling All Stats+ alone is pretty value, but what's nuts is that you get whole +1 Rank while we are fighting. That's .. actually pretty fucking crazy. Plus you just invested 9AP into Ruling Ring and that sweet, sweet Progression++

We'd have to make sure we don't Exhausted tho.

BrainInAJar said:

Just going home after popping Second Form kind of misses out on the point of it, that being we can continue to fight. It's a waste. Especially when we will be avoiding other enemies anyway.

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Seeing how we managed to survive the fight we otherwise wouldn't and came on top, I'd say that Second Form fulfilled it's duty marvelously. We are in no hurry thanks to earlier choices so there is no need to run into additional complications because we rushed it.

Our goal is to gain as much from this dungeon as we can, not to speedrun it.

LordOfMurder said:

This line killed all my motivation for arguing. Being a shitty writer and bad at writing reactions, I thought it'd be fine if I just argued at full strength. Hearing that despite a vote lead and at last notice superior argument power Immortal Regiment still lost after making it through days worth of consolidation to a build I considered the worst of our options was incredibly depressing. Feels bad man.

I mean I know every vote has to have a winner and a loser and I think on balance this system is better than standard voting, at least with the traditional system you know exactly how you lost.

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Your (and Byzantine's etc) arguments did contribute substantially to Immortal Regiment's chance of winning, but ultimately we're not arguing against a static target but rather the other side, and the other side is allowed to put forth an enormous effort as well. A lot of Murderous Panoply's argument power also went to Bright as those voters switched, and in terms of omake power Bright always had the lead. It's a troubling problem of the quest medium because if I simply presented the story with no vote options there would be no salt about roads not taken and probably better retention. Since there are more than 2 options offered in most votes, most people will lose more than half of their votes. You were "lucky" in that Gisena tended to win important votes so far (with the help of people arguing for her), but it was inevitable that she would lose one sooner or later. Think how Orm must feel, he hates Gisena and has still written a lot of reactions!

One thing that can multiply the effectiveness of one's argumentation is to try and get other people to actually switch their votes. This is of course extremely rare in online interactions but then you get the vote flip on top of your argument power, and it helps to refine your arguments towards those that empirically work, rather than typing up everything you think might work and deploying it all, something that can definitely be draining if prolonged. Discussion does also generate Arete as well, of course, so it's never totally futile.

Wolfy said:

Presumably because they don't want to get caught with their pants Second Form down.

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With Swift as Death's quasi fast healing, you might well spend the majority of your dungeon time in that form!

runeblue360 said:

Putting aside matters of powerleveling and mechanics for a second, Wait and Hope is actually quite a meaningful choice. Remember our moonlit talk with Gisena?

Choosing Wait and Hope means we actually listened here. Instead of taking on everything ourselves, we decided to trust our companions in a dire situation. We didn't throw ourselves forward but instead took a step back to consider ourselves, to think before we do. That would be a sign of genuine growth and character development on his part, in a way that's beyond the remit of our progression. Isn't that worth something?

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Given that you chose to go to the Temple in the first place, though, does it really make sense to not go all-in on an aggressive characterization? At least the risky options come with mechanical benefits!

I've been persuaded to flip! Maybe taking on stragglers is still a bit aggressive with only stats...

[X] Brute Force
[X] Wait and Hope

[X] Brute Force
[X] Wait and Hope

Here's hoping we get them Ring advancements. Getting Prominence would feel super nice.