A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
I agree with this sentiment entirely, and I think Fall synergizes strongly with the build. I just don't think it's more powerful than the potential of another one time 7-cost offer, and besides that, the +++Con probably makes the stamina losses at least a bit more bearable.
[X] Bright Vanquisher
[X] Hail the Outpost
Basically this for while hailing the outpost is best. I'm highly skeptical that a world-wide alert has gone out for us. And if one has, well, at least we'll learn about this now.
I thought long and hard about taking Immortal Regiment, but after learning that Gisena stays in camp I'm willing to go with the Vanquisher. I'm not even a little bit worried about getting into some kind of Arete loss spiral; a single victory can get us 3+ picks, meaning we'd still be very much profitable. As for defeat spirals where we just keep losing, we can just take that as a sign to do lower risk things.
[X] Hail the Outpost
Basically this for while hailing the outpost is best. I'm highly skeptical that a world-wide alert has gone out for us. And if one has, well, at least we'll learn about this now.
I thought long and hard about taking Immortal Regiment, but after learning that Gisena stays in camp I'm willing to go with the Vanquisher. I'm not even a little bit worried about getting into some kind of Arete loss spiral; a single victory can get us 3+ picks, meaning we'd still be very much profitable. As for defeat spirals where we just keep losing, we can just take that as a sign to do lower risk things.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
The real issue is not the arete loss spiral but the exhaustion spiral. Every use of Rage gives us tired. So two uses in a day give us exhausted, and that is very dangerous as we already learned.
Basically it is very good situationally if we only risk a couple boss encounters that can force its use. Any more than that and it will be fatal.
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The fact that all these people are gathered here and not killing each other tells us right away that cooperation is possible (unless they're all part of the same group).
Purchasing information is likely possible. A large enough encampment would likely have all the usual camp followers, such as cooks, prostitutes, and the like, and they would likely be willing to tell us all the rumors and tidbits they'd picked up relatively cheap. Genuinely valuable information would likely be vastly more expensive, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were dungeon-divers who've chosen to retire and just sell what they know.
I think it's basically inevitable that people wait by the entrance and kill anyone returning from the Temple with treasure. This is the most logical way to get rich from the temple; let someone else take all the risks and just take what you want from their corpses. If we do find treasure we should be careful on our return journey.
Edit: Actually, maybe we could take up the wait-by-the-entrance strategy? Not now, but when we're stronger.
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- Location
- Omniverse #1345
I do not want that part of Hunger's characterization. Do you?
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Anybody who ever wants even the slimmest hope of a 25 point arete buy should not go for Form of Rage. It's true cost is more like 10 arete and that's if we only ever use it three times before buying things that make it unnecessary. Every time it's used it's price tag gets worse.
It's a shame we're making our advancement before we get any solid data on the encampment. If they're substantially stronger than us, we'd know to go hard on the Arete expense or just cut our losses and walk away. As it is, we're flipping coins blindfolded, hoping we call whether we'd rather suffer for greed or fear.
Enohthree
Hypersane
On the flip side, winning fights that we should die at means that we can get a wealth of picks that we'd otherwise never get a chance at, and an Areteless pick from a fight that's more than enough to kill us twice over is something that's been pointed out as a bountiful method of high scaling power leveling.
At any rate it seems to be a bit unfair to just pick a number arbitrarily and say that's the 'true' cost, but regardless 'the quest should have ended three times but didn't' is a good selling point.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
This is a false equivalency since fights that would kill us with form of rage might not if we have thousand cuts or Gisena's backup. Bright Vanquisher doesn't take any combat boosts other than some stats, so that's all it has to rely on without Form of Rage. Killing things to powerlevel isn't uniquely the domain of Bright Vanquisher, Murderer's Panopoly is probably better at it other than the extreme far end of opponent strength.
At best it's an 8 cost option that sacrifices 8 arete to be able to buy a good 4 pick option. A more proactive 7 cost like Cuts combined with a 3 pick like valour is going to be stronger the vast majority of the time and we don't have to spend extra arete to access it's power.
The problem with form of Rage is that it's a panic button that we don't want to have to use. Every time we're forced to use it the worse it is. If we have to use it to win the first fight in order to get another more proactive option that means we have to go through the rest of the temple tired and the arete cost puts us further away from picking up another 7 cost.
[X] Bright Vanquisher
[X] Hail the Outpost
If we're going to pick the (potentially?) suicidal Outpost option, the build that ~triples our power when we die seems like the right combo.
[X] Hail the Outpost
If we're going to pick the (potentially?) suicidal Outpost option, the build that ~triples our power when we die seems like the right combo.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
[X] Bright Vanquisher
[X] Hail the Outpost
What are the specific odds that this group of adventurers are trecking through the Temple and hasn't completed it?
Sure, a level 20 Wizard may be confident if beating a level 10 dungeon. What are the odds that it takes that same level 20 Wizard days to crush it? It seems implausible to me.
[X] Hail the Outpost
What are the specific odds that this group of adventurers are trecking through the Temple and hasn't completed it?
Sure, a level 20 Wizard may be confident if beating a level 10 dungeon. What are the odds that it takes that same level 20 Wizard days to crush it? It seems implausible to me.
I wonder how these guys found their way here. Could there be a King Fish aqua farming operation out there that stocks them with bottles and releases them into the wild?! The fact that the map was able to bypass Foremost space warping flawlessly and in real-time is honestly very impressive. I'd guess it's put out by whatever force is behind the Temple, probably to draw in "participants". The message in a bottle sort of calls to a different explanation though. Maybe someone trapped in the Temple sending an S.O.S.?
Enohthree
Hypersane
Given where we are and the choices the thread made to reach where we are, with significant argument to try and do this even more dangerously than we already have, running into things that Panopoly can't kill seems likely at this point.
If we have to use it at the outset then we can rack up an incredible amount of destruction, kill things that vastly out level us, and net picks that we wouldn't have been able to get from said monster's corpse in exchange for a debuff that will go away after a night and 1 arete. At which point we'd possibly be in the black, since killing peer opponent's are already worth half an arete if chosen and even discounting that the opportunity costs are notable. At which point we wouldn't have to keep pressing on, we could leave if we liked.
On the flipside gives a Tired debuff, but it only gives a Tired debuff. Every other health issue is restored. It's surely possible that something twice as strong and fast as us could fall to Panopoly, but any injury we take from something that powerful (and given how impermanent maiming is now that we have two forms of slow healing Hunger's more than willing to take on injury if it helps him win, so much as he'll even have a choice to do so against something twice as dangerous as he) is likely going to be a whole lot more debilitating than something he could shake off with some snooze without Pristine Star. That has even dire implications for a continued temple run.
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
We also either lose an Advancement or a point of Arete. Both are fairly significant.
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- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Or Exhausted if already tired. At which point you can't use it a third time and just die.
Form of Rage is a very good panic button that we can only afford to press very sparsely. It is not a good option as our primary offense while entering a dungeon with an unknown number of enemies inside.
High. We are in an intentionally-built Isekai realm, which means this is probably a capital D Dungeon. Aka a self-restocking fortress that generates its own defenses and loot. We don't know how many "floors" it has, but I would assume a lot.
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LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
We actually can't use it to rack up kills since form of rage ends whenever the encounter that triggered it does. If we use it twice we become exhausted and can't use rank which is a significant debuff. It's also only relevant if the thing that gets through our forms is actually overpowering rather than just powerful enough to beat a build with no offensive powers at all.
Restoring our health isn't an issue since second form already full heals us when it runs out and we can trigger it whenever we want. In a trade off between having tired or exhausted for a day or wound penalties for a day the stamina debuffs are worse since they restrict a large portion of our power especially since the extra con we're taking makes wound penalties matter less.
I suppose there's some argument for taking Form of Rage and then just yoloing into the adventurers to murder them all. But given there's so many of them and we have no idea how strong they are I don't think thats a good plan even with Rage.
Bright Vanquisher is a build that is substantially weaker than all the other builds until it goes into Rage Form. This means we'll have to use rage form against monsters the other builds could beat without needing it. Taking Vanquisher is gambling on running into a monster so powerful none of the other builds could beat it before the next build vote. If that gamble fails we will have suffered a huge opportunity cost, both because we could have taken other more broadly useful options and because Vanquisher's penalties for being used are much harsher than any of the other options.