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A Simple Transaction I

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Byzantine said:
Any chance I could convince you to switch out A Thousand Cuts for Undying Vanguard? It has even higher stat gains at the cost of a special - but in exchange we get to bring Gisena into the dungeon with us!
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There is... a chance. Let me think. Septupled power and speed on the big sordening, range. Or. Gisena, fuck your magic, another mind, TRIPLE (3X!) the hands, can tank almost as well as us, less tiring. +++Con, as well. That's sexy.

I guess the big thing is, I'm not sure how well Nullity will work on these enemies. Gah, give it your best shot. :p
 
For anyone voting for Ruinous Valor: Undying Vanguard + Echos + Fall of Night actually gets us more stats then Einhander Ruinous Valor, and it lets us protect our allies. And doesn't require giving up on having two arms. The only advantage Ruinous Valor has is being able to take Thousand Cuts, but we don't need that with the sheer stat boosts provided by Vanguard builds.
 
Byzantine said:
Any chance I could convince you to switch out A Thousand Cuts for Undying Vanguard? It has even higher stat gains at the cost of a special - but in exchange we get to bring Gisena into the dungeon with us!
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Byzantine said:
We would still be getting two Echo's of the Forebear and Fall of the Night, which is ++++Str. We're currently at +1 str so...
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Thousand Cuts gives far more of a chance to defeat foes vastly stronger than us then Vanguard does. Since enemies stronger than us are the major worry inside the Temple; I think Cuts is better. Bringing Gisena along doesn't make up for this.
LordOfMurder said:
Thousand cuts does lots of damage but it also makes getting exhausted easier, so if we expect to get into lots of fights instead of just one or two I think a build that swaps Cuts for Vanguard is probably better. Gisena also does increase our offensive power by lowering the enemies resistances and healing.
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Vanguard doesn't increase our sustain, it just make Gisena able to tank. And Thousand Cuts is way more powerful than just bringing Gisena along. The fear is enemies that are stronger than us, we alredy have good defenses that would come in handy during mob fights.
Rihaku said:
It's true that your defenses are strong for your level, but ultimately you are about to enter a domain that is above your level, so defensive supremacy may be a prudent, if not terribly invigorating, decision! On the other hand, offense pays greater dividends when it does succeed, at the cost of substantial risk!
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This is is still ++CON, +++AGI and fall control, that build doesn't neglect defense, it's just not the focus. Justifiable because our defense is better already.

ImperatorV said:
For anyone voting for Ruinous Valor: Undying Vanguard + Echos + Fall of Night actually gets us more stats then Einhander Ruinous Valor, and it lets us protect our allies. And doesn't require giving up on having two arms. The only advantage Ruinous Valor has is being able to take Thousand Cuts, but we don't need that with the sheer stat boosts provided by Vanguard builds.
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We most certainly need that, because enemies stronger than us are our main concern. Vanguard doesn't do enough in that.
 
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the ForebearX2
[X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
 
Projectile said:
There is... a chance. Let me think. Septupled power and speed on the big sordening, range. Or. Gisena, fuck your magic, another mind, TRIPLE (3X!) the hands, can tank almost as well as us, less tiring. +++Con, as well. That's sexy.

I guess the big thing is, I'm not sure how well Nullity will work on these enemies. Gah, give it your best shot. :p
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I don't know how well it will work either, but based on all the magic involved in the setup I'm willing to bet quite well, unless this is one of those dungeons that baits you with lots of magic iconography without having a single magic using mob.

BrainInAJar said:
Vanguard doesn't increase our sustain, it just make Gisena able to tank. And Thousand Cuts is way more powerful than just bringing Gisena along. The fear is enemies that are stronger than us, we alredy have good defenses that would come in handy during mob fights.
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I believe that with Gisena + ourselves with the stat boosts we should be able to find a chink in the armor of even the more powerful monsters, as long as we don't go into the final boss room, and that we will get more picks before we venture into there.

LordOfMurder said:
Is thousand cuts zero picks now because that's what we looked like we were doing to the farmers?
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It's always been 0 picks since we got the base option. Only reason undying Vanguard isn't 0 picks is we need to buy an Echo of the Forebear first.
 
Seriously; Fell-Handed Strike is already super strong. Thousand Cuts septuples tht power of that and allows us to do so at range. Fall also makes our projections easier; giving us a much more robust ranged game.

Byzantine said:
I believe that with Gisena + ourselves with the stat boosts we should be able to find a chink in the armor of even the more powerful monsters, as long as we don't go into the final boss room.
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I don't share your optimism. Eventually a stat disadvantage becomes too overwhelming; we need a trump card for those scenarios, more than we need another combatant.
Besides, I think it's much more likely for enemies to resist Nullity than the Power of Ruin, because piercing defenses is what Ruin does. Remember that even the Fish King already had a IFF-like effect that forced Nullity to use Tide. We can't trust that Nullity is going to be maximally effective unless we put ourselves at risk of dispellation.
 
Hmm. The companion part of the vote makes the tally annoying.

BrainInAJar said:
I don't share your optimism. Eventually a stat disadvantage becomes too overwhelming; we need a trump card for those scenarios, more than we need another combatant.
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Cuts provides no stats. It is powerful but tiring. A good final move but I believe that build somewhat lacks the foundation for it. That is, I think getting Cuts here is a risk that presumes we will be fighting one big enemy instead of lots of little ones.
 
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I do want to draw attention to the +Int builds that are available here -

Something like Echo of the Forebear + Dominion: War + Preeminence of War gives ++Physicals and +All Other Stats within its purview, which covers most fights and other contests with serious stakes against opponents. That's not just +Int (one of the most valuable stats), but also +Cha, +Protection, +Wisdom, +Luck... in the event that there are non-combat challenges in the Temple, this would offer extreme relative benefits, and the +0.5 Rank isn't shabby in combat either!

As for Philosopher's Wreath, if you are taking it for Sorcery, the stat boosts it gives are actually very relevant, and the Grace likely to be very relevant as well. It's well worth the price, though you only get the power for 8 hours a day. And it gives +Int, +Wis, +Cha on top of that! Getting to +++Int could make a whole host of challenges easier!

There's also high-Protection, high-offense builds like Iridescence + Echo + Thousand Cuts. Getting that ++Protection and expanded coverage combined with the passive drain and burst potential of Thousand Cuts is a potent combo that will serve you just as well off the battlefield as on it, bringing you to +++++Charisma.
 
Ironic, to have to rely upon a thousand cuts by giving up Thousand Cuts. What else do we have that's bursty? Crits triple damage and 1.5x Ruin, winning fights would look like vs Captain Evening. It could work?
 
I might be being biased because I'm used to games not letting you do more than chip damage against bosses without serious drawbacks, so I'm going for a build that maximizes chip damage ability without the risk of tiring out that Cuts has if facing a swarm.

BrainInAJar said:
My argument is that we can rely on that to breach even a substantial Stat difference, especially in defense. We fell offensively inclined enemies quicker too, therefore taking less damage.
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Against single enemies I agree. The downside of Cuts seems to be that it is speced as anti-Hero while we may need anti-Swarm, which is well within Gisena's skillset.

I'm also going to note that Vanguard comes with the benefit that we won't need to rush inside the dungeon. We can be fairly sure Letiz will be safe as long as we don't take a literal month. This is not something we can be sure of just leaving her and Gisena outside.
 
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I added in some extra notes and revisions to the basic build overview I wrote up. Still not exhaustive, as I didn't really bother with listing the many, many possible hybrid builds (and finding all possible combinations would be excessively tedious in any case), but slightly more comprehensive now.
Reading Ruinous Valor again, it really is either a short-term power bonus or a long-term potential gain between its options, huh? Hm. That tips the scales to Preeminence for me, I think.

[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] The Ring of Power - Dominion - 2 Arete
[X] The Ring of Power - Preeminence - 7 Arete
[X] Gisena - Sorcerous Advancement I
 
Hmm. Valid points regarding mental stat builds. I still like Vanguard the best because it protects our allies, and I like both of them and want to see them survive. I'd be happy enough if War Ring or Philosopher's Wreath won though.

Overall I'm not a great fan of Ruinous Valor though, because it does many of the same things of the Vanguard Build, which means if we pick it people will skip out on Vanguard in the future. Also if we take Valor we need Einhander and I don't want to give up on restoring our protagonist to a whole human body.
 
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Evening Sky - Iridescence - 2 Arete
[X] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 7 Arete.
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star

This build gives us significantly improved stats and survivability, then applies that survivabiiity to allies. Between Vanguard and Hollow Star Letrizia should be able to hold her own outside the temple, which means we can bring Gisena along.

The temple has been very heavily implied to be magic based, which greatly increases the value of bringing Gisena along (along with the obvious benefit of bringing along a genius to give a second opinion on any traps and/or puzzles).

If we're bringing Gisena, and entering a magic based temple, then broad-spectrum magic immunities and the ability to withstand a Nullity wave both jump in value - and on top of that Vanguard naturally increases the value of defensive options.
 
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[X] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 7 Arete.
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star

Decent offense, solid defense, gives good protection to our companions and let's us take Gisena into the temple without risking death.

Redshirt Army said:
If we're bringing Gisena, and entering a magic based temple, then broad-spectrum magic immunities and the ability to withstand a Nullity wave both jump in value - and on top of that Vanguard naturally increases the value of defensive options.
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Iridescence requires Opalescence.
 
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[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[X] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 7 Arete.

[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
 
Current vote count?

ImperatorV said:
For anyone voting for Ruinous Valor: Undying Vanguard + Echos + Fall of Night actually gets us more stats then Einhander Ruinous Valor, and it lets us protect our allies. And doesn't require giving up on having two arms. The only advantage Ruinous Valor has is being able to take Thousand Cuts, but we don't need that with the sheer stat boosts provided by Vanguard builds.
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Einhander does provide Ruin scaling with Strength though. With high Strength that's incredibly potent against certain enemies.

BrainInAJar said:
Vanguard doesn't increase our sustain, it just make Gisena able to tank. And Thousand Cuts is way more powerful than just bringing Gisena along. The fear is enemies that are stronger than us, we alredy have good defenses that would come in handy during mob fights.
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Gisena has regen from Vanguard when she tanks, so she has sustain, so the party has a tank with sustain!

LordOfMurder said:
Yeah I think this build is superior to Valor unless we take Einhander and probably even then. Making blade wind easier to use and increasing the damage by a third and giving a chance to crit every hit has incredible synergy with Thousand cuts letting us apply fell handed strike to blade wind.
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Is relying on crits really the best path forward?!

ImperatorV said:
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[X] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 7 Arete.

Continuing my earlier thoughts, I like Undying Vanguard here. Fall of Night because we're lacking in offense, and and an extra Echos with our last pick. This is ++++ Strength, +++++Con, +++Agility, our allies are protected, we get Gisena on the dungeon dive, and Fall of Night improves our combat options.

...That is a lot of stats. I underestimated how good Vanguard was.
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It's mostly how good Echo is! You can take Undying Echo for no picks, and upgrade to Vanguard for only 5 Arete!

Zampano said:
(I'd vote for Philosopher's Wreath if we had more time to practice, but Byzantine is correct that it's a medium-term tactic and we're in a short-term crisis.
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Philosopher's Wreath actually does provide immediate power of substantial degree in Sorcerous form, as well as Intelligence and Charisma!!

Conjured Blade said:
Basically, we're a Lightning Tank with this.
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Yup, though in terms of stats value the Ring build is possibly even better!

LordOfMurder said:
Thousand cuts does lots of damage but it also makes getting exhausted easier, so if we expect to get into lots of fights instead of just one or two I think a build that swaps Cuts for Vanguard is probably better. Gisena also does increase our offensive power by lowering the enemies resistances and healing.
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Cuts has its passive Fell-Handed effect as well!

LordOfMurder said:
Come on people! Who cares about mechs!? Gisena is the cutest! Vote for Gisena!
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Hm... I'd agree that Gisena is the cleverest and prettiest in the party, but Letrizia is pretty strong competition for the position of the cutest...
 
People, the King Fish already had an IFF against Nullity. Relying on her for our offence may not be very wise.

Byzantine said:
I might be being biased because I'm used to games not letting you do more than chip damage against bosses without serious drawbacks, so I'm going for a build that maximizes chip damage ability without the risk of tiring out that Cuts has if facing a swarm.
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Rihaku said:
Such horrific offensive power allows one to challenge foes vastly stronger.
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You're kind of at the point of arguing that the explicitly stated benefits of the option are not there.

Byzantine said:
Against single enemies I agree. The downside of Cuts seems to be that it is speced as anti-Hero while we may need anti-Swarm.
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We are already better positioned for swarm fights between Evening Sky and Second Form. Boss slaying is a far bigger hole in our build.
 
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] The Ring of Power - Dominion - 2 Arete
[X] The Ring of Power - Preeminence - 7 Arete
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star

I like how the ring can ultimately be made into the Ring of Ruling. It also seems strong right now. The problem is going to be that after getting War and Chief Dominion, Passion isn't going to add much compared to what I imagine other options will. Hopefully it finishing the Ring of Ruling will make it worth it.
 
Not sure how to divide votes. The companion vote is making it more complicated.
Adhoc vote count started by Byzantine on Jun 3, 2020 at 10:57 PM, finished with 73 posts and 20 votes.
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