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A Simple Transaction I

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[X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts
[X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor
[X] Zweihander
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star

Valor + Thousand Cuts to let us alpha hard, second form should make it possible for us to suicide-kill something pretty far above us and walk? away.

Zwei cause I want that goddamn hand. Hollow star so we can swap and leave Letrizia outside solo.
 
Build vote time!

So, let's talk about some basic builds.
First up, a highly potent offensive build. Since Ruinous Valor is 3 picks, there is only one possible other option to add to it, the 0-pick Thousand Cuts, for a significant jump in offensive might. Also, can get arm back if desired. Our relative offensive weakness would be significantly ameliorated with this.
E: Note that Zweihander means that no defensive improvements are made, with this pick. Einhander is a permanent crippling, however.
[ ] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)

A fairly potent defensive build that strengthens allies. Undying Vanguard incentivizes the picking of defensive options, drastically increasing the tankiness of our allies. They are very likely to be alive when we come out. However, limited benefits to our personal power, and we're the only one going in.
E: On a closer reading, the possibility of switching to Risky is there, so this is more viable than I first thought. There are also the iterations of this build which choose more offensive options; the +Con from an Echo is worth less than the +Protection from Opalescence, but Echos offer greater personal power.
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 7 Arete.
[ ] Evening Sky - Opalescence - The soft light of evening before which all attacks falter. Improves defensive parameters. [+Protection]
[ ] Evening Sky - Iridescence - 2 Arete

Going all-in on Ring of Power: War would give +0.5 rank and +All Stats. The extra pick is thrown to Echo, though it could as easily be used for Opalescence.
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[ ] The Ring of Power - Dominion - 2 Arete
[ ] The Ring of Power - Preeminence - 7 Arete

For Form of Rage, the extra +0.25 Rank provided from Dominion is likely greater than the stats and stronger ranged attacks of Fall of Night, and offense is likely more useful than defense. If wishing to ensure no advancements are revoked, could instead take Echo twice. Form of Rage is likely the greatest survivability option we have at this point, but is also the costliest option, as it is paid for per-usage as well.
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Form of Rage - 7 Arete
[ ] The Ring of Power - Dominion - 2 Arete

Philosopher's Wreath is not really a short-term power option; the instant power from becoming a Sorceror likely pales in comparison to the other 7-Arete options. Fall of Night is chosen over Dominion, but which would be better would really depend on the personalized Grace.
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[ ] Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath - 7 Arete (2 picks)

If we chose to forgo Ruinous Valor but still wanted Thousand Cuts, this would also not be too bad of a build. The Fell Handed Stroke at range + the bonus to range from Fall of Night is considerable, and the two picks of Echo amplify the offensive gain further. However, no defensive improvement.
E: Actually, this gets ++Con from Echos. So Limited rather than No defensive improvement.
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear x2
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[ ] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)

Finally, companion bonuses. Hollow Star is a short-term power pick, while Sorcerous Advancement is a long-term potential pick. Since we picked Conservative, it is likely that the short-term power is not necessary, thus pick whomever you prefer.
[ ] Letrizia - Hollow Star: It appears your Pristine light actually is capable of healing Verschlengorge... just not by very much. But the giant has regained some small matter of functionality, enough to fight about as well as it fought when you first encountered the Armament, all those... days... ago.
You haven't really been the best of bodyguards, have you? [+Letrizia]
[ ] Gisena - Sorcerous Advancement I: By studying your body and spirit and its correlated astral shadow, Gisena has made a breakthrough in the nature of Sorcery and findross, though it will take additional time for this to translate into power. Nothing concrete as of yet.

Currently, I'm waffling between Ruinous Valor and Preeminence, but for now, I'll vote for Valor. I am opposed to Wreath at this time, and don't think Vanguard is necessary; Form of Rage is also likely not necessary, so I would prefer not to take it immediately.
[X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
[X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
[X] Gisena - Sorcerous Advancement I

E: Some minor corrections and additional comments added.
 
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LordOfMurder said:
Man fights are a lot easier without a million debuffs, a pity we didn't go for yolo route, a 60 would have just had us fight an exceptional beast so we'd have 2 extra picks here. Gisena continues to be a treasure but that's obvious.
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Indeed. I will submit this time that with this roll the very scenic route was the correct pick. Unfortunately I didn't trust it, as the chances of a serious complication were too high for my taste, and I do not trust my luck with dice.

My only argument with your build is that I think healing Versch is the better pick, as it will let us take Gisena in with us without much fear, when combined with undying vanguard. (Anything that could take her hopped up on Vanguard with the partially restored Versch would probably be a serious fight for the whole team.)
 
Two follow up questions:

Is Nullity a valid school of Sorcery that we could learn with Philosopher's Wreath?

Is Verschlengorge himself a valid target of Undying Vanguard?
 
Hmm. I think Undying Vanguard makes narrative sense here. Hunger was just thinking about his companions, and how it was good he didn't lose any. He was also musing about keeping his humanity in the depths of transinfinite cardinalities, and having people with you is a good way to help with that.

It's also a good build for taking Gisena into the dungeon with us, which would get us her nullity and magic senses. And with Vanguard she can tank. Very useful.

Overall, I think I'm leaning towards Vanguard builds. Vanguard could be taken with Iridescense (for maximum ally tankiness) or with Fall of Night + Echos for shoring up our offensive weakness.
 
Rihaku said:
An interesting build! Very defensive, but high synergy between Vanguard and the +Protection picks. Still, a +Con build would be equally synergistic!
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A +Con Build doesn't let us shrug off the Tide, which I think is significantly more valuable than a bit of extra health and strength. After all, we don't actually know what's in the Temple. It could be a big bad monster we need to fight but it could just as easily be puzzles, magical traps, illusionary torments ect. Being resistant to magic and having Gisena with us and being able to nullify whatever we find in there is useful in many more situations than being able to SORD Good, to say nothing of how useful a second opinion from a genius might be if the challenges we face aren't so straightforward.
 
[X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[X] Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath - 7 Arete (2 picks)
[X] Gisena - Sorcerous Advancement I
Thinking something like this and choose Gisena's style of Sorcery. We get some key physical stats, a Grace, and 8 hours of the Sorcerous transformation that I think gives us some physical attributes as well?
I also generally think Conjunctional Advancements are a good idea, tying our artifacts closer together.
 
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the ForebearX2
[X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star

Yeah, I'm ready to vote it. ++++Str, +++Agi, ++Con, special attacks out the wazoo. Challenging foes vastly stronger is exactly what we're doing. And Hollow Star, 'cause my priority is surviving the next few days.
 
ImperatorV said:
Overall, I think I'm leaning towards Vanguard builds. Vanguard could be taken with Iridescense (for maximum ally tankiness) or with Fall of Night + Echos for shoring up our offensive weakness.
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I'm currently promoting the Vanguard offensive build, to bring up offensive talents up to par and get our companions up to a level we don't need to constantly worry about them. It's especially good because it scales. The better we get the more they get from us! It's great for maintaining a form of progression for them, since their personal progression can't keep up.

George said:
[X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[X] Evening Sky - Philosopher's Wreath - 7 Arete (2 picks)
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I believe this is poor timing for Wreath, as it will take time for our new magic system to come into its own, even with the boost Wreath provides, and at the moment we need immediate power. I would say Wreath is a medium term goal, and should probably replace Azure Moon on any longer-term plans that involved it.
 
Byzantine said:
Indeed. I will submit this time that with this roll the very scenic route was the correct pick. Unfortunately I didn't trust it, as the chances of a serious complication were too high for my taste, and I do not trust my luck with dice.

My only argument with your build is that I think healing Versch is the better pick, as it will let us take Gisena in with us without much fear, when combined with undying vanguard. (Anything that could take her hopped up on Vanguard with the partially restored Versch would probably be a serious fight for the whole team.)
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She should be fine with just Vanguard and I like Gisena better, plus we keep skipping all the findross options so I'm determined to get one through eventually.
 
Don't like Vanguard because then we'd still lack offensive power. Bringing Gisena is good, but it doesn't solve that. I'm not sure it's worth passing up on Thousand Cuts either. Our defense is fine, so Evening Sky picks don't interest me.

I think say that Gisena is more useful than more offensive power is a bit misguided. Sure, there are a number of situations where that'd be useful, but I think the majority of the challenge we can expect inside will be combat. And Nullity can certainly help with that; but only up to a point. Most monsters we have encountered have relied on their physicality thus far, and if that trend continues I'd definitely prefer the offense boost.
 
Projectile said:
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the ForebearX2
[X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star

Yeah, I'm ready to vote it. ++++Str, +++Agi, ++Con, special attacks out the wazoo. And Hollow Star, 'cause my priority is surviving the next few days.
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Any chance I could convince you to switch out A Thousand Cuts for Undying Vanguard? It has even higher stat gains at the cost of a special - but in exchange we get to bring Gisena into the dungeon with us!

LordOfMurder said:
She should be fine with just Vanguard and I like Gisena better, plus we keep skipping all the findross options so I'm determined to get one through eventually.
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I cannot find fault with this, though it is not my preference. May the better option win!

BrainInAJar said:
Don't like Vanguard because then we'd still lack offensive power. Bringing Gisena is good, but it doesn't solve that. I'm not sure it's worth passing up on Thousand Cuts either. Our defense is fine, so Evening Sky picks don't interest me.
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We would still be getting two Echo's of the Forebear and Fall of the Night, which is ++++Str. We're currently at +1 str so we'll basically be lacking a finishing move for bosses. I expect we will get additional picks before we face any serious final-boss type monsters, so we can wait a bit to get a super-finisher.
 
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Projectile said:
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the ForebearX2
[X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star

Yeah, I'm ready to vote it. ++++Str, +++Agi, ++Con, special attacks out the wazoo. Challenging foes vastly stronger is exactly what we're doing. And Hollow Star, 'cause my priority is surviving the next few days.
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Yeah I think this build is superior to Valor unless we take Einhander and probably even then. Making blade wind easier to use and increasing the damage by a third and giving a chance to crit every hit has incredible synergy with Thousand cuts letting us apply fell handed strike to blade wind.
 
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[X] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 7 Arete.

Continuing my earlier thoughts, I like Undying Vanguard here. Fall of Night because we're lacking in offense, and and an extra Echos with our last pick. This is ++++ Strength, +++++Con, +++Agility, our allies are protected, we get Gisena on the dungeon dive, and Fall of Night improves our combat options.

...That is a lot of stats. I underestimated how good Vanguard was.
 
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the ForebearX2
[X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star

SORD

(I'd vote for Philosopher's Wreath if we had more time to practice, but Byzantine is correct that it's a medium-term tactic and we're in a short-term crisis.

Philosopher's Wreath + Gisena: Sorcerous Advancement I is a hell of a mystery box.)
 
Hm... let's look at the synergy of each presented option in the context of options you've already purchased.


You have ++INT, ++++CHA, +Might, ++++AGI, Might's Repose, Fell-Handed Stroke and Rank 4. You acquired the Evening Sky.


Relative to your overall advancement, your Might is rather low, your Agi and Cha are high, and your Int is quite high. Your Rank would be impressive if you weren't currently exhausted and you have three vectors of esoteric attack (Ring of Power, Power of Ruin, Fell-Handed Stroke). Aside from Rank, your greatest overall assets are your comprehensive defenses and high Charisma, and it was precisely the latter that allowed you to bait the superior combatant Seralize into an overextension.
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Let's Break Down the Might Point we have right now into it's equivalent Strength and Constitution pluses, translating our stats into

++INT, ++++CHA, +Strength, +Constitution, ++++AGI

Fall of Night Gives us two strength points, an agility point, souped up and cheaper blade projections, combined with trapdoor insurance, which comes in handy given we're about to dungeon crawl.

++INT, ++++CHA, +++Strength, +Constitution, +++++AGI

The Stat boosts for Undying Vanguard take this to ridiculous heights while protecting our companions

++INT, ++++CHA, ++++Strength, +++++Constitution, ++++++AGI

Now round this out with an Echo of the Forebear(+Might, +Agility AKA +Strength, +Constitution, +Agility)

++INT, ++++CHA, +++++Might, +Constitution, +++++++AGI

Or Converted into Strength+Constitution, this is...

++INT, ++++CHA, +++++Strength, ++++++Constitution, +++++++AGI



[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[x] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[x] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 7 Arete
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star

Basically, we're a Lightning Tank with this.
 
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[X] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 7 Arete.
[X] Letrizia - Hollow Star
 
[X] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
[X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
-[X] Einhander
[X] Gisena - Sorcerous Advancement I
 
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[X] Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 7 Arete.
[X] Gisena - Sorcerous Advancement I

Byzantine said:
I believe this is poor timing for Wreath, as it will take time for our new magic system to come into its own, even with the boost Wreath provides, and at the moment we need immediate power. I would say Wreath is a medium term goal, and should probably replace Azure Moon on any longer-term plans that involved it.
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Yeah this is true, I got seduced LOL
 
BrainInAJar said:
Don't like Vanguard because then we'd still lack offensive power. Bringing Gisena is good, but it doesn't solve that. I'm not sure it's worth passing up on Thousand Cuts either. Our defense is fine, so Evening Sky picks don't interest me.

I think say that Gisena is more useful than more offensive power is a bit misguided. Sure, there are a number of situations where that'd be useful, but I think the majority of the challenge we can expect inside will be combat. And Nullity can certainly help with that; but only up to a point. Most monsters we have encountered have relied on their physicality thus far, and if that trend continues I'd definitely prefer the offense boost.
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Thousand cuts does lots of damage but it also makes getting exhausted easier, so if we expect to get into lots of fights instead of just one or two I think a build that swaps Cuts for Vanguard is probably better. Gisena also does increase our offensive power by lowering the enemies resistances and healing.
 
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the ForebearX2
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Fall of Night - 2 Arete
[ ] Forebear's Blade - A Thousand Cuts - 7 Arete (0 picks)
[ ] Letrizia - Hollow Star

Switched to something else
 
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BrainInAJar said:
Completely patches up the actual hole in our build which is offense. Thousand Cuts is literally the most efficient option with it being pure Arete. We are already very defensive with Evening Sky and Second Form; this gives us all the punch we need.
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It's true that your defenses are strong for your level, but ultimately you are about to enter a domain that is above your level, so defensive supremacy may be a prudent, if not terribly invigorating, decision! On the other hand, offense pays greater dividends when it does succeed, at the cost of substantial risk!

I'm beginning to see a pattern here.

Thomasfoolery said:
As for builds Full Ring or Valor+Cuts are my two preferred at the start. Simply seems like even if they aren't the best at some things they offer pretty comprehensive effectiveness everywhere.
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Full Ring is quite good! +All Stats is easy to underestimate, but the compounded effect of all those buffs is a tremendously effective character! Would you rather fight someone who's three times stronger than you, or someone who's moderately smarter, faster, stronger, tougher, more charismatic, prettier, better supported, takes less damage and luckier than you? It's greed, but also immediate might!

Conjured Blade said:
Edit: I found it, Might maps to Strength and Constitution.
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Yup.

Projectile said:
As strong a rejection as expected, but even more quickly! Yeah, I know when I'm beat. Zweihander's cool, too, but we'd have fuck-all Con. Well, one. But we do have Protection, and Hunger is smart enough to know he's fragile. Behavior aside.

Hm. It's not the worst gamble to go full glass cannon in the hopes of +Con on the next fight, if we survive. But eesh.

BrainInAJar's idea looks nice, if Einhander is doomed. So many options...
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I wouldn't say it's doomed yet. If the Thousand Cuts + Valor build is winning then Einhander is by far the better choice for this situation. +++++CON is too important to give up if you're spending 3 picks on one ability.

Bilbo Baggins said:
A Thousand Cuts for 0 picks - what a generous offer!
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It's always been so since you got Fell-Handed!

Sickul said:
Valor + Thousand Cuts to let us alpha hard, second form should make it possible for us to suicide-kill something pretty far above us and walk? away.
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It may be risky to commit so much to offense against a trial of this caliber...

Genesys said:
Currently, I'm waffling between Ruinous Valor and Preeminence, but for now, I'll vote for Valor.
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This post has an interesting summary of numerous builds! Highly recommended.

Genesys said:
Finally, companion bonuses. Hollow Star is a short-term power pick, while Sorcerous Advancement is a long-term potential pick. Since we picked Conservative, it is likely that the short-term power is not necessary, thus pick whomever you prefer.
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Yeah, if you're going Conservative (which you probably will outside of Vanguard builds), Gisena's advancement is certainly viable.

ImperatorV said:
Hmm. I think Undying Vanguard makes narrative sense here. Hunger was just thinking about his companions, and how it was good he didn't lose any. He was also musing about keeping his humanity in the depths of transinfinite cardinalities, and having people with you is a good way to help with that.
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How best to strike a viable balance between offense and defense?

runeblue360 said:
A +Con Build doesn't let us shrug off the Tide, which I think is significantly more valuable than a bit of extra health and strength. After all, we don't actually know what's in the Temple. It could be a big bad monster we need to fight but it could just as easily be puzzles, magical traps, illusionary torments ect. Being resistant to magic and having Gisena with us and being able to nullify whatever we find in there is useful in many more situations than being able to SORD Good, to say nothing of how useful a second opinion from a genius might be if the challenges we face aren't so straightforward.
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You may find that you lack the simple offensive wherewithal to put down strong enemies, though! Especially if they're resistant to Nullity for any reason!
 
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