The 10% hunger penalty of a hunger sated is outweighed by the synergy of needing important enemies to proc it and tribulation providing us with them. We don't need to seek worthy opponents since tribulation will ensure they come to us once a month.
The Apocryphal Curse's danger isn't periodic nuisances, but those times when it forces us to "dig deep and discover whether you are truly worthy of the Accursed's mantle." The Tribulations, basically. Even slightly increasing their difficulty may fuck us over in the long run, since the Apocryphal Curse scales with us by default. Run the gauntlet of probability enough times, eventually we'll stumble. What happens when we go a year or a decade without a proc, with the Curse conserving its credibility for one big fuck you? We're buffing the events that we ought to actually be scared of.
 
[ ] Superb Nutrition: The power of the King Fish infuses your insides. Gain +0.05 additional Astral Rank.

[ ] King's Blood: The limitless stamina of the Lake's overlord. Heal all active wounds on yourself and your company. For the next two months, you cannot bleed out and all wounds heal at ten times speed.

[ ] Fierce Vigor: The terrible might of its thrashing sinews, fit to part wave from shore. Gain one copy of [Echo of the Forebear], granting +Might and +Agility.

Thinking on these options:

Superb Nutrition gives a pretty small long term bonus, which is basically the opposite of what we should be focusing on at the moment. As such, even if it is hypothetically on par with the others if we were fully rested and relatively safe, it's by far the weakest pick of these three given for our current situation, and should probably be treated more as a benchmark for the relative value of Astral Ranks vs. Ability Pluses for future comparison.

King's Blood gives us around a 10% boost to our strength immediately, since:

You have are at roughly 82% of your health but due to your Accretion Rank are fighting at 91% of full strength.

It also gives us decent health recovery for the next few months, which is probably less relevant because we took the Mantle, but still a nice perk.

Fierce Vigor
is the intermediate option: A single stack of [Echo of the Forebear] almost certainly gives less than a 10% overall boost to power, but it's a boost that will stick around after we eventually heal through hypothetical other means, and continue to persist past two months from now.

Personally, given Rihaku's relatively dire warnings about how unprepared we are for an Apocryphal proc at the moment, I'm inclined to go with King's Blood, but there's a decent case to be made for Fierce Vigor too.

Next, Mitigation. The specifics of the choices will determine whether an additional pick is worth 2 Arete, so I'll leave that decision for after my choice analysis.

[ ] Decimator - Direct Mitigation: Reduces drain rate by 12.5%, now 8.75% per year.

[ ] Decimator - Huntress' Moon: Impairs all conventional mitigation attempts by 40%, but dramatically increases the number and availability of targets for A Hunger, Sated. Targets will always be at least minimally challenging or in some way exceptional.

Huntress's Moon is amazing in the short term, and still quite decent in the medium term: In the short term, we're stuck in a dungeon pocket dimension while having the apocryphal curse, and in the medium term we'll almost certainly be fighting a lot of people, either enemies of the government in exchange for the government's assistance or the government itself because we pissed them off with Tyrant. It starts dropping off in effectiveness as we get to high levels of power relative to this universe, and the number of things that count as "minimally challenging" or "exceptional" relative to us start to run dry.

That said, since it's a part of mitigation as opposed to an implicit part of the curse itself... @Rihaku, if we do eventually get to a point where we think getting 40% better conventional mitigation is more useful to us than being able to hunt things down to Sate Hunger, can Gisena undo this mitigation? And if she does, would that "reset" mitigation process on the curse by one degree, or would that stage of mitigation be lost forever with no long term benefit?

If we can go for a mitigation method that's excellent in the short term, and then just replace it with a more fitting one later on, then that would clearly be the most optimal choice. Otherwise, this becomes yet another short term benefit vs. long term growth question - although I'd still be inclined to go for Huntress's Moon even then.

And just for completion's sake: I don't think Direct Mitigation of Decimator is particularly important in the short term: We aren't draining anywhere important, and the difference between draining 10% and 8.75% of our companions per year is marginal.

[ ] Tyrant - Direct Mitigation: A difficult Curse to mitigate. Imparts a very small amount of flexibility in acknowledging (though not obeying) some important laws or customs, if the interlocutor is extremely courteous and subservient.

[ ] Tyrant - Trusted Counsel - A single trusted Lieutenant can attempt to convince you that one law or custom would be sufficiently valuable to comply with that you may tolerate it for a time. The custom may be broad, but not overly so, and may not be changed once your mind is set.
-[ ] Trust Gisena
-[ ] Trust Letrizia
-[ ] Trust Verschlengorge

I'm not quite clear on what the second choice does. What does "tolerate it for a time" mean? That we'll only follow it for a relatively short period? But that seems at odds with the "may not be changed once your mind is set" statement - or is that meant to imply that this mitigation only applies to one single custom, ever?

Some amount of Tyrant mitigation will make our assigned task for Indenture immeasurably easier, but that's a long term goal. In the medium term, it provides a relatively marginal improvement to our survival chances once we link up with civilization, and in the short term, it basically does nothing. I'm not inclined to prioritize Tyrant mitigation at this point.

[ ] Indenture - Companion - Add a companion to accompany you on your travels. You may decide upon the moment of transition.

This won't be relevant for, probably, hundreds of years. And since Curse Mitigation scales more or less independently for each curse, we'll almost certainly be able to mitigate it to at least this degree by the time it's relevant anyway. Pass.

[ ] Apocryphal Curse - Direct Mitigation: Reduces the difficulty of encounters by roughly 10%.

[ ] Apocryphal Curse - Tribulation: Slightly increases the difficulty of encounters, but the Apocryphal Curse will not trigger more than once per month, starting next month.

Now this is good shit. If even a quarter of our encounters are Apocryphal Procs, this will basically make our life 2.5% easier, forever - and the mitigation gets more relevant, the more the Apocryphal Curse stores things up: thirty encounters with scrub bandits all being 10% easier is alright, but a fated nemesis being 10% weaker is way better!

Tribulation is decent too - having something guaranteed to be a major hassle show up every month is a different flavor of obnoxious compared to having to constantly watch your back for the whims of fate, but it's one easier to build a schedule around. That said, the Apocryphal Curse already scales over time between incidents, so the net effect of this is that difficulty goes up, but so does predictability. In the long run, that's excellent, but in the short term where even the base difficulty has decent odds of ending us, and we don't actually have a schedule to disrupt, no need to enable hard mode just yet.

So, based on my analysis, I'm currently leaning towards picking Decimator - Huntress' Moon and Apocryphal Curse - Direct Mitigation.

My understanding is that the overall mitigation Gisena is able to provide isn't really dependent on Arete - given sufficient time, she'll be able to reach "archmage" mitigation levels on all four of our curses either way, and further improvements will run into the hyperexponential brick wall of Curse Density and require improving Gisena to reach anyway. So the Arete spending option doesn't give us an "extra" mitigation proc in the long term, it just shifts one proc to take place slightly sooner. Is that correct, @Rihaku ? If it is, then I don't see any real reason to spend the Arete at the moment - two mitigation actions should be enough to cover our actual needs for the next month or two, so we can save up for future Arete purchases.
 
I thought there was a mitigation option which shortened the amount of time the Apocryphal Curse has to prep?
 
We'll be spending arete after a tribulation not before it since that's when we'll get lvl ups.

The 10% hunger penalty of a hunger sated is outweighed by the synergy of needing important enemies to proc it and tribulation providing us with them. We don't need to seek worthy opponents since tribulation will ensure they come to us once a month.

I should clarify then. I expect at least 1 Arete spending opportunity to occur before Tribulation mitigation takes effect. We will be more able to prepare if we have more Arete to spend when it happens.

As for Tribulation providing us with them? This is not an assured fact. Huntress Moon gives us a broader range of targets, potentially raising the probability we get one out of Apocrypha with or without tribulation however Apocrypha is under no obligation to give us Moon Acceptable targets.
 
Just to put some hard numbers on our goals for Decimator's mitigation: we have to rule for 50 years. If we want to avoid draining more than 90% of the kingdom's life force during that time (an absolutely crippling amount to loose!) then we need to mitigate the curse by more then 50%. That's straight up impossible via conventional mitigation thanks to the super-exponential cost curve, but it's something we can manage with Huntress' Moon. If we take the first upgrade to Hunger Sated we'll only need to hunt once every six months to keep it up too, though I worry that that's a hidden trap because we'd be giving up the chance to keep it completely mitigated by hunting more often.

If we don't take Huntress' Moon you need to be planning a very distant style of rulership where we spend very little time actually in our kingdom or around our companions.
 
The Apocryphal Curse's danger isn't periodic nuisances, but those times when it forces us to "dig deep and discover whether you are truly worthy of the Accursed's mantle." The Tribulations, basically. Even slightly increasing their difficulty may fuck us over in the long run, since the Apocryphal Curse scales with us by default. Run the gauntlet of probability enough times, eventually we'll stumble. What happens when we go a year or a decade without a proc, with the Curse conserving its credibility for one big fuck you? We're buffing the events that we ought to actually be scared of.
Choose Tribulations then, so that the curse doesn't save itself for a year and instead puts our asses to the fire every month! It literally wouldn't be able save more credibility than that.

As for Tribulation providing us with them? This is not an assured fact. Huntress Moon gives us a broader range of targets, potentially raising the probability we get one out of Apocrypha with or without tribulation however Apocrypha is under no obligation to give us Moon Acceptable targets.
Even if Apocryphal never provides us with Hunger targets ever again (which I doubt) Tribulation can still give us a safe period where we can hunt for mitigation without surprises from Apocryphal. It makes the whole Kraven thing much safer if we need to actually do it.
 
Choose Tribulations then, so that the curse doesn't save itself for a year and instead puts our asses to the fire every month! It literally wouldn't be able save more credibility than that.
Unless I'm severely misreading the option, that's not how it works? It 'will not trigger more than once per month, starting next month'. Not triggering at all and saving its slightly-increased credibility is a valid response to that constraint.
 
Why not tyrant mitigation instead since we're likely to need that way before we need indenture mitigation?
Partly because the actual options given are fairly underwhelming, and partly because I expect that the more we interact with society the more avenues of mitigation are likely to open up to us that are pertinent to that curse, and I'd rather we not pick mitigation for that curse blind.

And because people will always, always, ALWAYS say "we have time, let's wait" and they'll sleep on it until the absolute last second. And then we'll get screwed over for our short-sightedness. I don't want to have to fight every single time this option comes up to try and get people to pick it. It's not fun to argue that. If we do it now, at the very first opportunity, it will never come up again because we will have already made the decision, and will be able to not be concerned with this Geas mitigation for probably the next 1000 pages of this quest.
 
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Choose Tribulations then, so that the curse doesn't save itself for a year and instead puts our asses to the fire every month! It literally wouldn't be able save more credibility than that.

My understanding is that with Tribulation, the curse can't proc more than once in a month, but it doesn't have to proc once a month - it's still fully allowed to save up for several months to hit us with a big one.

E: Ninja'd by Orm
 
The Apocryphal Curse's danger isn't periodic nuisances, but those times when it forces us to "dig deep and discover whether you are truly worthy of the Accursed's mantle." The Tribulations, basically. Even slightly increasing their difficulty may fuck us over in the long run, since the Apocryphal Curse scales with us by default. Run the gauntlet of probability enough times, eventually we'll stumble. What happens when we go a year or a decade without a proc, with the Curse conserving its credibility for one big fuck you? We're buffing the events that we ought to actually be scared of.

This is a valid point. We'll want that difficulty decrease when the Apocryphal decides to make us prove we're worthy of the Accursed's mantle. Living up to that takes a lot! So, I've changed my mind.

[X] Fierce Vigor
[X] Spend No Arete
[X] Tyrant - Trusted Counsel
-[X] Trust Gisena
[X] Apocryphal Curse - Direct Mitigation
 
[X] Fierce Vigor
[X] Spend No Arete
[X] Indenture - Companion
[X] Apocryphal Curse
- Direct Mitigation
[X] +0.5 Arete


Switching to a more conservative plan. These two curse mitigations are mandatory long term, so let's lock them in and then continue learning about mitigation while we build resources and power. @Dark Abstraction has made some excellent arguments about that. My vote differs from hers on how to mitigate the Apocryphal Curse, however; being safe for the remainder of a month doesn't buy us much safety compared to the Tribulation procs being weaker. Especially with Hunger, we profit a lot more by keeping high end fights manageable.
I stand by my choice of Fierce Vigor for the fish power; since we have no Pressure right now, Might and Agility form the core of our fighting power. This should make us significantly stronger while Exhausted is active.
Finally, since I cut Tyrant mitigation due to a more conservative Curse mitigation philosophy, I'm no longer taking an option that makes +Gisena tactically necessary. In light of that, I find Abstraction's point that it's better to get the + from choosing to interact compelling. Let's try to keep our relationships supported by on-screen scenes so our hero's sentiments and ours can grow together! Also this, combined with not spending Arete on Curse mitigation, will give us a shot at another 7 Arete option in, say, a week of real time, or else maybe bail us out of the aftermath of a Tribulation.
 
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Unless I'm severely misreading the option, that's not how it works? It 'will not trigger more than once per month, starting next month'. Not triggering at all and saving its slightly-increased credibility is a valid response to that constraint.
My understanding is that with Tribulation, the curse can't proc more than once in a month, but it doesn't have to proc once a month - it's still fully allowed to save up for several months to hit us with a big one.
Well, shit. If so, that makes it way worse. And makes Huntress's Moon absolutely unsynergistic, as it can just wait until we need to hunt again.

That said, @Skelm does make a good argument about the viability of Huntress's Moon compared to direct mitigation, so I'm still going with:

[X] Fierce Vigor
[X] Spend No Arete
(top 2 picks)
[X] Decimator - Huntress' Moon
[X] Apocryphal Curse
- Direct Mitigation
[X] +0.5 Arete
 
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[X] King's Blood
[X] Tyrant
- Direct Mitigation:
[X] Spend 2 Arete (top 3 picks will occur)
[X] Decimator - Direct Mitigation: Reduces drain rate by 12.5%, now 8.75% per year.
[X] Tyrant - Direct Mitigation
[X] Apocryphal Curse
- Direct Mitigation: Reduces the difficulty of encounters by roughly 10%.
[X] +0.5 Arete

How do you mitigate a Curse? Same way you eat a fish, one bite at a time. Pick King's Blood for safety and take a chunk out of all our fucking Curses except the Geas. Simple, basic improvements? Yeah. But we're on week fucking one, this is damn good progress, don't need to get fancy just yet.
 
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[X] King's Blood
[X] Spend No Arete (top 2 picks)
[X] Decimator
- Direct Mitigation: Reduces drain rate by 12.5%, now 8.75% per year.
[X] Apocryphal Curse - Direct Mitigation: Reduces the difficulty of encounters by roughly 10%.
[X] +0.5 Arete
 
The Apocryphal Curse's danger isn't periodic nuisances, but those times when it forces us to "dig deep and discover whether you are truly worthy of the Accursed's mantle." The Tribulations, basically. Even slightly increasing their difficulty may fuck us over in the long run, since the Apocryphal Curse scales with us by default. Run the gauntlet of probability enough times, eventually we'll stumble. What happens when we go a year or a decade without a proc, with the Curse conserving its credibility for one big fuck you? We're buffing the events that we ought to actually be scared of.
Digging deep and discovering whether we're truly worthy of the accursed mantle is unfortunately the best way for us to level up. Since we took hunger we don't have the luxury of being a hikineet like Seram, we have to earn our level ups by murdering things for them. Since this is more effective the stronger our enemies, difficult fights are what we want.

The curse can equally choose to save up forever no matter which option we pick but at least with tribulation it can't save up and then immediately proc after we barely survive the first one.

Besides Rihaku mentioned that it's possible to outscale the Apocryphal curse to at least some degree so the aggressive power leveling provided by overcoming tribulations should be our best shot at that.
 
Given the understanding that Tribulation is imposing a stipulation of no more than one proc per month, but isn't stipulating that there will be a monthly proc (the curse can wait longer for a bigger suckerpunch), that option does seem to lose a bit of its luster. I am coming around to the principle of directly mitigating the instances of the curse by 10% instead; this curse will be scaling with us a bit, unlike the vast majority of the threats Hunger will face, so the Zang Kong-esque bonus bosses we'll eventually be facing being 10% weaker is a big deal.

Changing my vote to the below:

[X] King's Blood
[X] Spend 2 Arete
[X] Decimator
- Direct Mitigation
[X] Indenture - Companion
[X] Apocryphal Curse
- Direct Mitigation: Reduces the difficulty of encounters by roughly 10%.
[X] Extra +Gisena


[X] Fierce Vigor
[X] Spend No Arete
[X] Tyrant - Trusted Counsel
-[X] Trust Gisena
[X] Apocryphal Curse - Direct Mitigation
You didn't choose your freebie bonus; +Gisena or +0.5 Arete
 
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Just call me Hunger," he said, suppressing a cringe at the appellation.

This is a bit curious, was he just putting on a strong front when he first started using the title due to the uncertain situation which he can now relax on due to knowing them better, or has his mindset actually changed? His egalitarian values poking through once more perhaps, or just the shame of bearing such a tryhard name.

No, but I think I understand.

The fact they have the same "Green-eyed" phrase but not this (Or maybe they don't and she just new it was a dig and responded appropriately?) as well as the anime thing probably isn't all that important for anything to do with Hunger, but it does sort of prick my interest about how and why the background mechanism functions.

[X] King's Blood
[X] Spend No Arete
(top 2 picks)
[X] Decimator - Direct Mitigation: Reduces drain rate by 12.5%, now 8.75% per year.
[X] Apocryphal Curse - Direct Mitigation: Reduces the difficulty of encounters by roughly 10%.
[X] +0.5 Arete

I've come around on just directly plugging away at the curses. Might change to spending arete for another but for now I'll just go with this. Still torn between vigor and blood, honestly I think they're both fine. Blood immediately restores a significant amount of power and the healing means we can take a riskier course for more gains during the rest of the month though.
 
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Also, it's a bit of a morbid thought, but considering how easily our group settled into this whole quasi-familial relationship that Letrizia likely has the standard EVA pilot backstory of dead/hilariously neglectful parents. There's the possibility of noble intrigue being involved as well, given the example of the Amalrt family in Catherine's blurb.
The fact they have the same "Green-eyed" phrase but not this (Or maybe they don't and she just new it was a dig and responded appropriately?) as well as the anime thing probably isn't all that important for anything to do with Hunger, but it does sort of prick my interest about how and why the background mechanism functions.
Letrizia did say their worlds likely had similar ontological parameters, so that's probably why there are so many similarities.
 
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[X] Fierce Vigor
[X] Spend No Arete
[X] Decimator - Huntress' Moon
[X] Apocryphal Curse
- Direct Mitigation
[X] Extra +Gisena
 
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Letrizia did say their worlds likely had similar ontological parameters, so that's probably why there are so many similarities.

Yeah, that's what I meant, why does the function work like so. Even when the worlds are significantly diverged in other ways specific cultural jargon still translates. It's not particular relevant for Hunger now, might eventually come in handy to get a background on it considering the Geass though.
 
I think the cringing at "Lord Hunger" might be the Doom of the Tyrant showing its head, maybe?

Like, it's 'painful' to us because being called that implies that we're part of the local systems of rule/custom/law concerning nobility and such... although, now that I think of it, didn't we claim to be a noble a little while ago?

hmm, not entirely sure how DotT interacts with stuff like this.
 
[X] King's Blood
[X] Spend No Arete
(top 2 picks)
[X] Decimator - Direct Mitigation: Reduces drain rate by 12.5%, now 8.75% per year.
[X] Apocryphal Curse - Direct Mitigation: Reduces the difficulty of encounters by roughly 10%.
[X] +0.5 Arete

...By the way, Rihaku, if we take both decimator options right now does that mean the direct one gets reduced by 40%?
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Byzantine on May 28, 2020 at 11:20 PM, finished with 69 posts and 23 votes.
 
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