The Game of Crusading Thrones, Self-Insert Edition (GoT CK2)

Kelenas · Apr 27, 2020

Elder Haman said:
Uhhh... homespun clothing manufacture is almost certainly more time consuming than grain threshing. Clothing manufacture was quite literally done year round, and often absorbed much of a woman's time and effort. Only cooking and cleaning taking up more time. Threshing would be closer to food preservation in time consumption. I would need access to first hand accounts to demonstrate this, which are not available in full on the internet, but if you know anything about the process of making homespun it's pretty obvious.

I can only speculate that your readings on pre-industrial labor distribution are focused exclusively on male labor, as there are many more accounts of that available than there are of women's work (which was very often done "off the books"). Estimating threshing as 25% of agricultural labor simply cannot not be taking into account female labor in cooking, cleaning, food preservation, and clothing manufacture.

There is nothing wrong with that focus, it's driven by the availability of source material, as long as you remember that women's labor is not being counted in those accounts.

In the interest of avoiding assumptions on my part, I'd like you to define what exactly you mean when you're talking about "textile mills", because the definitions I found online are somewhat broad and can range from machines that perform a single specific manufacturing step - such as turning fiber into yarn - to large facilities that cover the entire process from raw materials to finished pieces of clothing, and the way you talk about them throughout both this and other posts of yours also seems to vary.

As for sources, the issue that immediately jumps out to me is that the ones you list are all from the 18th or 19th century, which isn't really representative of our current situation. As a reminder; in terms of agricultural technology we seem to be closer to the 10th or 11th century or even earlier, given how watermills were only starting to be introduced to the North at the beginning of the quest (for contrast, 11th century England already had records of thousands of watermills). As such, we are currently lacking several centuries of development and innovations in areas like agriculture, textile manufacturing, etc - as well as the resulting social developments and changes - that your sources are based on, rendering them rather questionable in the context of our situation.

Considering that what I remembered hearing/reading did include female labor in regards to cloth-making - contrary to your assumption - amongst other things, it's quite possible that the source of our disagreement is indeed a differing focus of source material; just that the focus differs in time periods, rather than genders as you assume.
Based on that, while textile making was a task exclusive to women (and young children), it was a task that was only performed during the winter (with men having their own gender-exlusive winter task in the form of felling trees and cutting firewood); the rest of the year the women would generally help work the farm alongside the men (and the children as well).
It's quite possible that by the 18th/19th centuries that various innovations in agriculture, textile manufacturing, and other areas might have changed that to the point where it was both possible and economically preferable for women to spend most of their time spinning rather than working the farm, even outside of winter time, but as noted; that's not really applicable to our current situation.

Elder Haman said:
Well, actually, we probably would not see the same results from something like a foundry, as we would most likely simply expand our own local mines instead of importing iron. Even more so in the case of ships as we have one of the largest sources of lumber on the continent. However, that does not go to your main point, which is that by developing our economy in any area we ought to see an increase in trade, etc. That is true, but only increases in production of food or clothing are going see the establishment of the massive amount of trade I am talking about. Other products are simply not sizable enough as part of the economy to have the same impact.

This is pretty much the same fallacy, just in the other direction. Because just as an increase in demand for ore or timber would lead to an increase in mining and woodcutting, an increase in demand for fiber would lead to an increase in ranching sheep and farming flax, hemp, etc.

Everyone needs food. Everyone need clothing. Not as many need boats or even steel. I suppose home construction might be considered something of similar importance, but it's not really something you can export.

You're conflating need with want. Because a lot of trade isn't about needs, it's about wants.
People need food and clothing, yes, but covering those needs is generally not all that difficult just with local resources.
The Silk Road didn't exist because the people of Europe, northern Africa, etc desperately needed silk; cloth made from linen, cotton or wool worked well enough to serve their needs and could easily be acquired locally, for example. Instead the Silk Road existed because silk was nicer than linen or wool and could serve as a status symbol. Same thing with the spice trade; people didn't need cinnamon or pepper or turmeric, but they wanted it because it made their meals nicer and served as a status symbol.
It's pretty much the same thing with textiles; most people didn't have much trouble getting the clothes they needed to keep themselves covered and warm, with even medieval peasants generally owning two sets of clothes (to have a spare while one was being cleaned/repaired). What spurred the trade in textiles is that people wanted things like table covers, curtains, bedding, pillows, additional sets of clothes, etc; partly because it was nice, and partly because it was a means of showing off their wealth and status.

Likewise, people might not need things like steel tools, steel tableware, steel cookware, etc, but they will want them because they're both nice and can serve as a status symbol against those who need to make do with iron tools or wooden tableware.

Besides the value of the wares itself as a potential status symbol, there's of course also the simple monetary factor to consider; if there are two identical products but one of them is cheaper, people will generally buy the cheaper one because it leaves them more money to spend on other things.
So even very common goods can result in an increase of trade if we introduce means of mass-producing something cheaply enough; "buy low, sell high" being one of the absolute basics of merchant trade.

Which brings us back to what I already said; if we introduce something that results in a major change to supply and demand, we'll see an uptick in trade as merchants react accordingly; that's how the market economy works.

Elder Haman said:
This argument is questioning the entire premise of this quest. Which is that of introducing modern knowledge into Westeros so as to allow us to skip ahead over many of the preceding steps, and institute the Industrial Revolution early. You are basically arguing that that is pointless, and that we have to go through all the intermediate steps anyway.

This quest is about introducing modern knowledge to Westeros, yes; it's not about ignoring or handwaving away basic economic or technological realities.
Some innovations are relatively easy to introduce. 4-field crop rotation for example is mostly a simple matter of organization and methodology; as long as you have the necessary know-how, you could introduce it to pretty much any civilization that has figured out agriculture.
Other innovations, however, very much have requirements that need to be met in order to make them possible or at least practical, and those requirements become more stringent the more advanced the innovation in question is.
I frankly see absolutely no issue with that, because even with that restriction we'll still be advancing at a breakneck speed, covering progress that originally took centuries in the span of years or maybe decades instead.

We have already introduced improved farming methods so as to get us above sustenance. We have started a school to teach people basic math and how to read. The next step is to introduce a large labor saving device so as to allow more people to go to the school. The textile mill is a massive labor saving device, that will free large numbers of peasant girls to attend school and learn how to read and do math. It will also begin developing a massive trade good complex that will allow us to spread our influence, and generate a large amount of wealth to fund the next steps, like expanding the schools, expanding the roads, and other major public works.

I already addressed the work of medieval peasant women above; they very much participated in farm work, especially for the particularly labor-intensive and time-sensitive tasks such as planting and harvest.
Ironically, the innovations we introduced - 4-field crop rotation and the seed drill - might very well have made things worse in that regard, because they increase the productivity of a given piece of land, but don't actually save any labor. Or at least, not any appreciable amount; the seed drill might make sowing a bit easier, but I've never seen sowing referred to as a particularly time- or labor-intensive task in the first place, compared to various other work that needs doing on a farm.
The amount of work necessary to harvest and process crops, however, hasn't actually changed, despite the fact that our innovations will result in a larger amount of crops that need to be harvested and processed.

Between the amount of labor still tied up in food production, and the lack of improvement in wood- and metalworking (and their corresponding resource extraction and processing industries) that would allow for the cheap mass-production, operation and maintenance of complex machinery, the conditions for an industrial revolution simply aren't met yet.
We simply need far, far, far more labor-saving technologies; right now, the only efforts we have made in that regard is the water mill for grinding grain, and the printing press for books, which simply isn't anywhere near enough. We need additional variants of water- and windmills such as fulling mills, paper mills, sawmills, and rock-/ore-crushing mills. We need blackpowder for blast mining, and mine carts for easy ore transportation and a predecessor for wagonways. And so on, and so forth.

Elder Haman said:
I highlighted that section because I still don't get this way of thinking. If we are going to spend the time and effort to establish say a school of medicine, then based on what reasoning would you argue that we shouldn't also spend the time to create a book to provide that school with the most accurate and modern knowledge possible? I mean, establishing such a school will most likely take multiple seasons, but writing a book that contains most of our (limited) knowledge of biology and medicine can probably be done within a season. It's like arguing that you want to build a castle wall, but don't want to spend the extra time to put crenelations on that castle wall because you want to save time. But in doing so you basically cripple the castle wall in performing it's purpose.

Any institution we create is not going to suddenly "discover" the periodic table of elements. That's an effort that took centuries of effort to discover. Why would we ever create a school and then not provide them with knowledge that will save them centuries of effort? We can just spend a single personal action and provide it to the school so that they can focus on using that knowledge to create actual practical things for us to use.

I can accept an argument that medicine is a lower priority than chemistry, but not that an institution is worthwhile investing in without also giving that institution the knowledge it needs to maximize success.

Which is another point, how can you think that the periodic table of elements is somehow unimportant knowledge? How exactly are we supposed to create an effective chemical industry without spending enormous amounts of personal actions on it unless we provide others with the basics that would allow them to develop chemistry themselves?

You keep saying that you want to save actions, but from my viewpoint you are the one who is proposing an inefficient use of actions, by suggesting that we should not spread the advantage we have (knowledge), but insist on others having to figure it all out themselves.

To repeat myself again; it's a question of priorities and applicability. Time we spend on introducing theoretical knowledge is time we don't spend introducing more immediately useful knowledge. That doesn't mean theoretical knowledge isn't valuable, and that we shouldn't try to write it down and introduce it at all, but it does mean that we need to consider whether it's important that we do so right now, instead of focusing on things that would be more immediately beneficial to us and our kingdom.

Similar to the blood-type discussion, let's say we spend time writing a book about the period table. How does the average citizen of our kingdom benefit from it within the next 5-10 years? What could the average blacksmith, or healer, herbalist, brewer, or even alchemist do with this information, considering the extremely technologically limited tools available to them?

To borrow your own metaphor; my issue isn't that you want crenelations on top of the walls we're building. I'd very much want to have them, too. My issue is that you seem to want to build this wall by starting with the crenelations and then build downwards, instead of starting with the foundations and then building upwards.

Elder Haman said:
Are... you actually arguing that we should not make the scientific method a part of basic education? Seriously?

It's not like it takes up a lot of time to teach, and it would then provide the general population with the framework for them to develop their own research and discover things on their own. I thought that was what you wanted?

Why would you limit the scientific method to research facilities? That's like arguing that we shouldn't teach the scientific method in grade school, but only graduate students should be learning it.

I don't even understand why you would oppose this. I thought this a place where we would both agree.

In this instance I suspect we're both thinking of very different things when talking about schools. To clarify this up front; I think it would be good if we could teach something like the scientific method in our students, I just doubt that we can afford to.

To expand on that, I'm guessing that you are most likely thinking of schools in the modern sense, where students go to school five or six days of the week, and are taught a wide variety of subjects such as literature, history, geography, chemistry, biology, physics, advanced mathematics, and more.

The problem is that we can't really afford to think of schools this way, because in modern society there is a plethora of labor-saving inventions that makes it possible children and young adults to spend most of their time in school learning.
In medieval times, however, all those inventions didn't exist yet, and as a result children were an important part of the workforce; they helped their parents with various simple but time-consuming tasks and chores, often learning the basics of the craft and profession they'd eventually inherit at the same time. They might be tasked with gathering branches and twigs for firewood, or to pick berries, nuts, and the like to supplement the household's food stores. Peasant children might help pick small stones off the field that would make plowing more difficult next year, help clear a field of weeds to prevent them from hindering the growth of the crops, fetch water and food for the lifestock, and assist with the harvest in various ways, depending on the crop and their age. A blacksmith's child might work the bellows, allowing his father to save some energy, while also learning how to regulate the heat of the forge. And so on.

In short, we need to think of schools in the medieval sense, where children would likely only be able to come to class one day each week because their parents wouldn't be able to spare any more of their children's time, and during planting or harvest season might very well not be able to come to school at all. Said classes also wouldn't be separated by age, creating some difficulties with the curriculum, and only contain the children within the nearby area; sending the children to a neighboring village or the like simply isn't all that feasible given the technologically limited means of transportation, so if a village is to small to have its own school, chances are it's children simply won't go to school at all.

So, to reiterate and summarize; it would be great if we could include basic scientific method in the school curriculum, but the practical and logistical difficulties of just spreading basic knowledge of math and literacy to as many people as possible makes me doubtful about the possibility of doing so at this point in time.

Elder Haman said:
Ahh... except we can improve the roads in the full part of our realm. I even asked about it a couple turns ago for the DCs on an issue command for the creation of a road between Cerwyn (on the White Knife) and Torrhen's Lake. Another location discussed was to improve the road between Long Lake and Castle Black.

There is no reason that we can't this. Nor is there any reason I can see a local lord complaining about us if we do it directly instead of issuing a command. I mean, why would a lord complain about us improving the road inside his lands?

That's kind of my point, though; for every stretch of road we want to build or improve, we need to issue a command, and then hope that it gets obeyed and executed correctly. If we want to improve the entire North, that's a lot of roads, and correspondingly a large amounts of commands that need to be issued.

So, it's not that we can't currently do this at all, it's that the current way is likely to be fairly slow and inefficient.

Elder Haman said:
If you dump an average city boy on an island and tell him to build a boat, he won't have a clue how to do it, and will have to spend a lot of effort figuring things out with a lot of failure. But take that same average city boy on an island, and give him a book on how to construct primitive boats, and he is going to perform much, much better. I don't understand why you think that the first approach is better.

No offense, but I rather got the impression that you got hung up on the fist mention of fertilizer in the segment you quoted, and then didn't bother reading anything I wrote beyond that.

To re-use your own metaphor here; the idea isn't to dump an average city boy on an island and tell him to build a boat. The idea is to inform people who already know how to build boats that we want bigger boats, or faster boats, or build boats more cheaply (without a reduction in quality, obviously), or the like, and we're offering a reward to the one(s) who can figure out how to do so.
And if someone who doesn't know how to build boats overhears and decides that they want to give it a try anyway; why not? It doesn't cost us anything to let them try.

In the short- to mid-term, the point is to save time by basically offering financial rewards to people who invent stuff for us; as I indicated above, there are many inventions that we need if we want to try and kick off an Industrial revolution, and every invention that someone else comes up with means actions that we don't need to spend. Which in turn might give us the time to set up the various research and education institutions, as well as write down our knowledge.

In the long-term, the goal is to transform those rewards from simply a means to try and save actions into a means of encouraging innovative thinking amongst our populace in general, by getting more people to look at things and think "could this be done better somehow".

notbirdofprey · Apr 27, 2020

Short Spring, Long Winter, Year 110 AD

The damage from the storms has been repaired, but the weather stays blustery and cold in much of your domain. A few fields are being sown in the barrowlands and around White Harbor, which will help keep your people from starving. But it has still set you back more than you would have liked. Most importantly, while House Dustin and House Ryswell will continue working on fortifying the rivers, they won't have much luck without coin or other support from you. They can't do much more without risking their smallfolk starving, and trying to push them towards that would be…regrettable. You know no surer way to ensure enmity in the North then to cause preventable winter deaths. And it can't be too much longer before winter ends, you feel it in your bones. Which means that you could be facing an Ironborn invasion with gaps in your defenses. You study the map of the North that is pinned to your solar wall, and bare your teeth for just a moment. Let them come, they will die.

Internal issues within the North continue to trouble you. They fey are growing more difficult, and the feuds among your bannermen intensifying. If either of those keep going, it will start eroding your authority. Many of your bannermen also have expectations of aid and service, some of which are mutally contradictory. Fortunately, you have built up a sufficient stock of good relations and a sufficient stock of swords, and you do not risk a great deal of unrest from any one faction.

By the Old Gods, you are tired. You have been king for years, and will be king for years more if the gods are good. You almost wish you could step aside, but your sons are not ready yet, a war is coming…it's not a good time. You will simply have to make time for yourself and your family when you can, and perhaps see about expanding your bureaucracy and hoping it can help take some of the effort off your shoulders. You are not stupid enough to try and give more power to the nobles…you snort at the thought, and square your shoulders. Perhaps a round with Brandon will help clear your head…

(+1 Free Action, +1 Free Intrigue Action)

[] Issue Command (Power Bloc): Give a command to those under your command, spending gold and favors to ensure that they will do so without dragging their feet. Even with the best of wills, failure is still possible of course. Time: Varies. Cost: Varies. DC: Varies. Reward: Varies. Please @ me when doing this action, which is a free action that can be done as many times as you want. Possible resources to spend include gold, Influence, upkeep, the services of your advisor (actions), and special resources. The difficulty will vary based off power, opinion, what the actual command is, and how much you spend.

Military: Brandon is the Champion of Winter and a skilled commander of soldiers. He has gotten scarily stealthy. Brandon Cassel isn't quite as good, but he fills in the gaps well enough. Eddard tries to help too, and does a pretty good job of it. (Choose 1)

[] Build a Fleet (Location): Ironborn and slavers threaten your coasts, and you have gone long enough without a fleet. Order one of your vassals to begin constructing ships, and offer gold and workers to see it done. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 2900 gold. DC: 45. Reward: A new fleet.

[] Wardens of the Road: The beastmen probably aren't a significant threat anymore. Most of the Wardens have had minimal encounters, and there have been no reports of beastmen attacks from any of your subjects, new or old. Have some of them patrol the roads around the Wolfswood and help deal with any bandits of other threats instead. Time: 1 season. Cost: 150 gold. DC: 30. Reward: Potential increase to trade income

[] Guard Training: Brandon has replaced all the dead or severely wounded guardsmen by now, or at least selected men who will serve as adequate replacements after their training is done. With some of his spare time, he could train other men to a similar standard for other houses. And naturally, he will encourage those men to remember their loyalties to Winterfell should the unthinkable happen…Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 100 gold. DC: 45. Reward: Other houses gain small number of men trained and equipped equivalent to Winterfell guard, vassal loyalty increased.

[] The Royal Order: The Wolfswood Wardens proved to be a substantial boon, hunting bandits across your lands and those of House Glover and Tallhart. Even with their limited numbers, the benefits were immense. Brandon envisions an order of men dedicated to patrolling and protecting your loyal subjects all across the North, all sworn directly to House Stark and the King of Winter. It would be an incredibly expensive proposition, in influence to found and persuade your vassals to accept this massive increase in royal authority, and in gold to upkeep and provide for. You would need to find and equip a vast amount of men, pay them…but having such a force would be incredibly useful, for a variety of reasons, especially if you burned your brain and remembered what the best armies in history did. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 700 gold. DC: 70. Reward: Influence Interludes

[] Improve the Wardens: The Wolfsguard do not quite have the strength or heavy equipment of the Winterfell Guard. Adding a small force of heavily trained and well armored men to their ranks would be a substantial force multiplier. It might be a bit upsetting to some of your vassals however – creating such a force implies that you think they will need them, and not everyone knows about your plans for the Ironborn. Time: 1 season. Cost: 600 gold, vassal approval, medium upkeep increase. DC: 40. Reward: Force roughly equivalent to Winterfell Guard added to the Wardens

[] Expand the Guard: Alternately, you could directly expand the Winterfell Guard. Increasing their size will upset your vassals less, since the cost will be borne entirely by you, and having the entire under your direct command is a comfort as well. If you increase the size of the guard anymore after this, you will likely need to build new barracks for them though. Time: 1 season. Cost: 800 gold, chance of vassal approval, high upkeep increase. DC: 45. Reward: Winterfell Guard increased in size.

[] Review Levies: It has been some time since Brandon had the opportunity to ride your immediate lands and make sure that the levies are in order and ready to come when called, and he has never done so for the newly expanded Wintertown. Have him take a few guards and make sure the sergeants are doing their jobs and that there aren't any villages or hamlets slacking on the number they will send. Time: 2 season. Cost: 250 gold. DC: 40. Reward: Levy readiness improved, ??

[] Gifted Warriors: There are nearly a thousand wargs in Wintertown, and more scattered about your lands. There are a few hundred men and women blessed with incredible strength, albeit not to the level of the Mormont berserkers. There are people who can heal with a touch, people who can steal the courage of their foes with a song…the blessings of the Old Gods are many and mighty. Brandon intends to organize some of the Gifted into a force to be reckoned with upon the battlefield, or possibly in the more strategic sense. He has filled papers with possible uses for wargs alone – everything from delivering messages to using armored bulls as living battering rams. Time: 3 seasons. Cost: 600 gold, upkeep. DC: 55. Reward: Some sort of Gifted force attached to Winterfell guard. Type will be determined by dice rolls. Locked 2 seasons.

[] Fortify the Rivers: Brandon is determined to make the entire western coast of the North completely impenetrable to Ironborn attacks. To this end he has proposed making defenses similar to those on the Fever River on the Rillwater, the Barrow River, and the Redwater, establishing artificial reefs, chains, and towers to make a formidable barrier to any hostile fleet. Barrowton has been sacked when the Ironborn were at their height, as has Torrhen's Square. Proper fortifications may not be completely impenetrable to attack, but they will make the price far higher than even the boldest reaver will want to pay. Time: 3 seasons. DC: 45. Cost: 2000 gold. Reward: Heavy fortifications on the Rillwater, the Barrowriver, and the Redwater.

[] Sacrificial Raid: Send some men down to the Riverlands with orders to attack any Ironborn they can find, specifically aiming to capture ones "blessed" by the Drowned God so that they can be dragged back to a heart tree and sacrificed. It will be difficult and costly, and will bring unwanted attention. It will also look bad to many houses and factions, including the Faith and likely House Arryn as well. But the blessings of the Old Gods are mighty things…They are worth the price. Time: 1 season. Cost: 50 gold, chance of foreign disapproval. DC: 75. Reward: Rite of the Given Sacrifice is performed.

[] Coppering The Fleets: Copper is expensive. You were aware of that, of course – there are several copper mines in your kingdom, none particularly productive anymore – but you did not realize just how bad it would be. Coppering your fleets would cost almost as much as building a new one and take even longer. The benefits, however, are substantial. You will need every advantage you can get against the Iron Fleet, and they will save on maintenance in the long-term. Time: 3 seasons. Cost: 2500 gold, ships will be more expensive going forwards. DC: 45. Reward: All ships coppered, speed increased, maintenance reduced.

[] Blood in the Wood: You will not allow your vassals to be terrorized and murdered, not if you can do anything about it. Send in the Guard, send in the Wardens, get them support from the Green Men, and deal with the redcaps who are attacking your people. Make examples out of them, make it absolutely clear that to harm the North is to harm you, and you will not stand for it. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 100 gold, chance of decreased relations with fey. DC: 50. Reward: Lines drawn with fey, vassal approval.

Diplomacy: Jeyne has regained her warmth, especially when Edwyle or Eddard helps them. Of late, she alternates between one of the newer septwoods and the sept itself. (Choose 0)

[] Speak to Kings (Kingdom): There are other kings to the south of you. Perhaps you should open up talks with one of them. Though all of them are Andals and ironborn, you doubt any of them would outright refuse you…Time: 1 season. Cost: 50 gold. DC: 50. Reward: Positive diplomatic contact.

[] Speak with Vassals (Region): Most of your direct vassals are loyal and trustworthy, but it's good to keep an eye on them all the same. And if any of them have trouble, you might be able to help. Time: 1 season. Cost: 50 gold. DC: 30. Reward: Vassal relations boosted, aware of problems

[] Throw a Feast: Ordinarily, you would not throw a feast this close to winter, but given the state of the stores you are willing. It will be grander than normal, serving as an enormous statement of your power and wealth, and it will make a very solid impression on your vassals and allow you an opportunity to politick and persuade and make a few subtle deals on one matter or another. Time: 1 season. Cost: 1750 gold, Surplus goes down one level. DC: 25. Reward: 2d6 Influence, chance of increased vassal opinion

[] Play Nice: Write some letters, send a gift or two, make some minor arrangements and deals with some of your vassals. The political game is not one most would associate with Northmen, but it is played, even if it very different than it is south of the Neck. Time: 1 season. Cost: 300 gold. DC: 55. Reward: 1d4-1 Influence, small chance of increased vassal opinion

[] Show Favor (House): There are many ways for a king to show his favor to his bannermen. Positions can be given, tithes restructured, minor aid offered. And of course, there are always gifts – a horse from the royal stables or a Winterfell hound would be highly prized even by the greatest houses of the North. Even simple praise would see some hold their heads higher and answer your call prompter. If you have need of a particular House's aid, showing your favor to them may make persuading them far easier, especially if you are not blatantly obvious about your reasons for doing so. If you are extremely skillful in showing your favor, you may even inspire others to strive higher in hopes of earning similar rewards. Time: 1 season. Cost: 100 gold, 1 Influence. DC: 25/50/75. Reward: House opinion boost, 1d2-1 Influence/Large house opinion boost , 1d2+1 Influence/Large house opinion boost, general vassal opinion boost, 1d4+1 Influence.

[] Braavosi Recruits: While most of the North, and indeed most of Westeros, are immensely proud of their heritage and way of life, but even the most arrogant noble cannot deny that the Braavosi are better at some things: trade, banking, making canals, and many other such tasks. Find down-on-their-luck or adventurous men and women of the Secret City and offer them work and pay to come to Westeros, and you will be able to use some of their skills. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 300 gold. DC: Special. Reward: Braavosi recruits, new actions unlocked. Locked 1 season.

[] A Polite Punishment (House): While a king can easily show favor, disfavor can also be demonstrated through slights and insults, both subtle and vicious. When a house disobeys you or a noble displeases you, a polite, restrained show of your displeasure can accomplish much to ensure they will correct themselves and serve as a warning to other houses who might consider testing you. Of course, pushing too far can cause unrest and trouble with the house in question and possibly others as well. Time: 1 season. Cost: 50 gold, 1 Influence. DC: 25/50/75. Reward: general vassal opinion boost, house opinion loss, 1d2-1 Influence/general vassal opinion boost, 1d2+1 Influence/ general vassal opinion boost, house opinion boost, 1d3+1 Influence.

[] Speak to Pyrite: The Rite in the Vale is something of a concern, as is the sudden presence of beastmen and House Upcliff. While your relationship with the Vale is generally fairly good, it is not good enough to get the sort of information you need by going through Queen Sharra, so you must speak to Pyrite, who is still loyal to you in many ways. Even though he has been reluctant to broach many of these subjects in detail, if you ask he will surely tell you, right? Time: 1 season. Cost: 20 gold. DC: 70. Reward: Partial information about Lord Upcliff and the beastmen.

[] The Most High Holy: The Most Devout are still somewhat lacking in numbers. Several years of being murdered by fey will do that to an organization, you suppose. But they are already considering a candidate for a new High Septon. There's several candidates with attitudes that would be dangerous to you, although there is no guarantee they will be selected, of course. Or that they will have the power to act against your interests…The Faith has lost much strength in recent years. You will not be able to change the course of the decision as completely as you might like, but bribes and envoys and pressure on Most Devout Willem will sway it somewhat towards your interests. Time: 3 seasons. Cost: 500 gold, 2 Influence. DC: 35. Reward: Increased chance of High Septon with favorable attitudes being selected. Locked 2 seasons.

[] Improve Attitudes (Kingdom): There are several other kingdoms you share a continent with, and while they may not be able to take your lands they can certainly make things difficult, especially if a large number of the upper nobles don't like you. Fortunately, several of your vassals have members charming enough you could send them south and feel confident that they would make a good impression. You would even number Eddard among them. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 150 gold. DC: Varies. Reward: Improved relationship with kingdom.

[] Bloody Logging Problems: Two of your houses are in dispute with…quite a few vassals, fey, people sworn directly to you, people not really sworn to anyone…it's a mess of competing claims, arguments, near-rebellion, and feuding. Things have steadily escalated, almost to the level where it will start eroding your authority if things keep going. Stomp on it now, before it gets worse. Especially if it spread. Time: 1 season. Cost: 350 gold. DC: 45. Reward: Claims and disputes settled before they boil over more.

[] The Fair Folk: Your relationship with the Old Gods clearly provides a measure of protection. You would love it if it provided you with more, since the fey are still being a pain. Make some effort to learn more about the factions and the powers of the fey, and hope that what you learn is helpful and accurate. Time: 1 season. Cost: 20 gold. DC: 30/60. Reward: Information about the fey.

Stewardship: The Poole's have always served the Starks. You can remember your father telling him that as a boy. Jaime Poole has continued that tradition, and ably. Lately, Alen Locksely has been taking on more of his work in Wintertown and Eddard has been helping the aging steward with his work. (Choose 2)

[] Cattle Ranching: There are lots of cows now on your land. There's lots of land without any people. Put the two together to begin expanding your cattle herds and selling the meat and leather and milk. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 150 gold. DC: 30. Reward: New options unlocked, increase to trade.

[] Mines (Difficult): It will be expensive in blood, in time, in labor, in coin. Perhaps it is foolish, perhaps not. But all the most valuable ores are on the highest peaks, and you need the income these mines will provide. Time: 5 seasons. Cost: 1500 gold. DC: 70. Reward: Major new income source.

[] Expand the Surveys: The mountains clans have heard about the wealth you found in the mountains. Now they spend what time they can spare searching for ores and gems in their land. Hire the prospectors again and have them search through the rest of the mountains. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 100 gold. DC: 35. Reward: Knowledge of resources in the rest of the mountains.

[] New Mills: Build more water wheels and set them up with grindstones. Free up livestock and grind grain faster. Poole gets quite the gleam in his eye when he talks about all the things he could do with more waterwheels. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 300 gold. DC: 30. Reward: Increase to farming income.

[] Other Artisans: The forges are already bringing in wealth, and the amount will certainly grow. But people need more than iron and steel. They need houses and furniture and carts and all manner of things. Some will come naturally, but more will come if you encourage them. Having the carpenter's guild will certainly accelerate the process, and the civil service attracts some as well. But if you want to rival Barrowton or White Harbor or the great cities of the south, you will need to do more. Time: 1 season. Cost: 300 gold. DC: Special. Reward: Increase to trade, increased chance of guilds forming, chance of new options.

[] The Wolf's Walls: One of the best ways to distinguish an actual town from a collection of houses and shops is the presence of walls. Only chartered towns may have them, and while your town lacks them it will never quite be seen properly. They also serve the twin functions of defense and helping keep order. Time: 3 seasons. Cost: 400 gold. DC: 25. Reward: Wintertown gets good walls.

[] New Farm Tools: Begin paying artisans to create seed drills, and arrange for them to be used by some of the farmers around Wintertown. Given the season, they probably won't see much use, and you don't have the industry to make very many, but it will be a start. Time: 1 season. Cost: 650 gold. DC: 40. Reward: Small increase to farming income, will increase in later turns. Small increase to food surplus. (+15)

[] Establish Shipyards (Location): Before building a fleet, you need to establish the groundwork. Barrowton has docks, but they are not particularly large. All Bear Island has are a few piers for fishing boats, and the same is true for Torrhen's Lake. White Harbor is really the only place in the North with the facilities to construct large ships. It's time to change that. Begin constructing docks, gathering timber and rope and tar, and establishing all the things you will need to build and service a powerful fleet. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 550 gold. DC: 50. Reward: Cost reduction for shipbuilding, improved results and chance of success for shipbuilding actions, possible increase to trade.

[] More Logging Camps: When logging camps were first set up, nearly a dozen sites were surveyed, but only a few were selected in the end. There simply wasn't enough gold to build all the shelters and purchase all the tools needed. Fortunately, this means that with some more gold more logging camps can be established in very little time. Really, the only preparation required will be building shelters and then the woodsmen can get to cutting trees and sending them back to Wintertown. Time: 1 season. Cost: 250 gold. DC: 25. Reward: One-time income, increase to logging income, increase to trade.

[] Fruit Trees: There are some scattered apple trees in the Wolfswood and some chestnut trees just outside Winterfell. There are probably other fruit trees as well in the North. Begin growing them to help provide food for some of the poorer families and trade goods for the richer. Perhaps you could seek the aid of the Green Men in ensuring that the trees grow swiftly and healthily too. You know they have a ritual for it, and such deeds seem to be part of their duties, according to the Green Book. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 50 gold. DC: 45. Reward: More fruit trees, small increase to food supply, small increase to trade.

[] Purchase Food: Food is going to become scarcer and scarcer in the North, although you feel comfortable with how much you have at the moment - it's twice as much as you had last winter. Still, the Reach will have more, and Dorne, and the Vale, and the Stormlands. Send them gold and timber and steel and they will send you food to help fill your granaries. Much of the wealth of White Harbor and Barrowton was built off this sort of trade. Time: 1 season. Cost: 1000 gold. DC: 20. Reward: Food supply increases. (+15)

[] Expand the Schools: You've a school in Winterfell which serves a few dozen children and less than twenty adults as a part-time duty for one or two of the acolytes. Buy a small building in Wintertown, give those acolytes the full-time duty of teaching people to read and write, give an incentive or two for people to learn and then join up with the civil service, and you expect to have classes much larger. Hopefully at least a few of the graduates will fill in the gaps in your civil service. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 900 gold, upkeep, Citadel attention. DC: 45. Reward: Increased literacy, support for civil service, Citadel attention.

[] Issue a Charter (Location): There are other places in the North that could reasonably be called towns or even a city. Barrowton is on the cusp where you could justify giving it a city charter. The castle town below Deepwood Motte is almost as large as Wintertown. There are a few other places, like the Dreadfort, that could also arguably deserve a town charter. Of course, the politics of giving such a charter would be somewhat complicated – every house has rivals you would need to placate. Time: 1 season. Cost: 50 gold, 2 Influence. DC: 25. Reward: Charter issued, opinion gained, increase to trade.

[] Sky-Mills: Many of the rivers you would build waterwheels on have drifting chunks of ice that would make construction less practical, and in any case, there are only so many places waterwheels can be built where they would provide enough power to be worthwhile. Windmills, however, require only empty fields to function and clear weather to be built. And they would serve just as well for grinding grain into flour. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 250 gold. DC: 35. Reward: Increase to farming income.

Learning: Maester Brynden is an old man who has served your family for many years. And he's not a bad man, for someone born south of the Neck. You gather he's something unusual among the knights of the mind as well, but he's heartened by word from Archmaester Wyllym. Eddard and Edwyle have mostly stopped attending his lessons, but they visit the library often. (Choose 1)

[] Copy Books: Create some copies of books for the Citadel. They will pay you a good price for it, but they will also be trying to figure out how you do it, and saying yes risks your monopoly. Saying no will get their attention as well though. Time: 1 season. Cost: 25 gold. DC: 35. Reward: Increased attention from the Citadel, one-time income.

[] Improving Rivers: Not all rivers are suitable to place waterwheels on. Some don't have the necessary current to drive a wheel, some don't have a steep enough drop, some are simply to narrow. There are beasts which can shape the water to their needs – most prominently beavers, which are admittedly rare through much of the North. But if they can do it, surely men can as well? Time: 3 seasons. Cost: 600 gold. DC: 65. Reward: Dams, weirs, and mill ponds. New actions unlocked.

[] The Chain Ballista: The weapon Brandon sketched out looks like it could be lethally effective. Of course, it was roughly sketched out on the back of a ripped requisition form while Brandon was running on half a night's sleep, so there are probably more things wrong with the design than you can shake a stick at. Have Maester Brynden take a look at it, refine the design somewhat, and make a couple test versions. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 100 gold. DC: 55. Reward: Rapid-fire ballista design. Locked 1 season.

[] A Glass Candle: Glass candles are peculiar things. Useful, immensely useful…if every vassal had one, it would be so much easier to send messages, for one thing, but there is much you don't know about them. Can they be listened on? What are their limitations? Is there any risk of some wicked spirit possessing the user? Have Brynden and the acolytes try and answer these extremely important questions, and maybe find a bit more about the higher mysteries. Time: 3 seasons. Cost: 400 gold. DC: 65. Reward: Knowledge of glass candles, hints of Valyrian magic

[] Strange Rites: The Old Gods are not the only ones who can grant power. Even leaving aside everything you have encountered in Westeros, you have heard of the warlocks of Qarth, the Jade Magisters of Far Yi Ti, the priests of Rh'llor the Red, the shadowbinders of Asshai…there are more traditions of Westeros then you can count. Scour a few libraries in the North, see if you can gather any information about how these other rites can be used and how to perform them. Time: 1-5 seasons. Cost: 1000 gold. DC: 30/60/90. Reward: ??

[] Spread Knowledge: You have made some useful things, like the waterwheels which can provide immense power, and soon you will have a chain ballista. There's also the printing press, although you may want to consider keeping that under wraps for the moment. And of course, there's concrete, and then there are the things you haven't really implemented: seed drills and copper-bottomed ships and the like. Tell your lords about them and encourage them to use these to improve their desmenes. Time: 1 season. Cost: 120 gold. DC: 30. Reward: Can spread as many or as few technologies as desired.

[] New Darning: There's a couple devices in your darning barn that do it differently than the traditional methods. It's faster and it works better as well, and its one of the reasons that you are making so much coin from it. Find out who came up with it, find out more about how these work, and spread them to the rest of the barn. Time: 1 season. Cost: 100 gold, optional reward. DC: 45. Reward: Learn more about darning.

Piety: Frost is extremely strange. Which makes sense since he is a Child of the Forest. Now that you think about it that was rather obvious. He seems haunted by the prophecy he has shared with you. Edwyle has been helping him sometimes, although not too much. He does not wish to become a Green Man if it means giving up being a lord. (Choose 1)

[] Seek the Pattern: Frost suspects there is a pattern of some kind to the rituals. "A great working of god, Singer, and man, like all made a tapestry out of a single thread," he described it, although you get the impression he was grasping for words, like trying to describe in detail how a bank works in the Old Tongue. One of the acolytes who came north with Valyrian steel in his chain seems to agree, although you don't like the way he watches the godswood, looking at it almost like a butcher looks at a hog. Certain limits will be put in place, and they will be abided by. Frost, you can trust on that. The others, you find yourself uncertain. Time: 3 seasons. Cost: 300 gold. DC: 85. Reward: ??

[] More Field Rites: A few new (or old) rituals have been (re-)discovered and are being taught to those who are capable. In time you will see your fields growing more fertile, and weirwoods growing from saplings to mighty trees ready to be carved in a matter of weeks. You suspect there is more to be learned though. Time: 4 seasons. Cost: 100 gold. DC: 70. Reward: New magic unlocked.

[] More Rites of War: The gifts of the Old Gods are potent in war, granting you the power to make your armies seem far vaster than they are and create lethal arrows potentially deadly enough to slay even a full-grown war dragon…although you pray you never have to test that. But threats and foes abound in Westeros, not to mention whatever horrors lurk in Essos or beyond the Sunset Sea. In bleaker moments, you consider the possibility of Brandon the Shipwright leading a fleet of ghost ships under the command of some insane warlock, but then you remind yourself to dismiss the tales of Old Jenny. She does love her horror stories. The point remains: any advantage you can gain is an important one. Time: 4 seasons. Cost: 100 gold. DC: 70. Reward: New magic unlocked.

[] Rites of the Wild: The First Men and the Children of the Forest learned much from each other once the Pact was sworn, but much has been forgotten. Frost and his brethren will begin to seek the rites of the wood and waters and attempt to recreate them. Time: 4 seasons. Cost: 50 gold. DC: 75. Reward: New magic unlocked. Locked 2 seasons

[] Rites of the Flesh: The First Men and the Children of the Forest learned much from each other once the Pact was sworn, but much has been forgotten. Frost and his brethren will begin to seek the rites of the man, woman, and child and attempt to recreate them. Time: 4 seasons. Cost: 50 gold. DC: 75. Reward: New magic unlocked

[] The Red Gift: In the blood of the Red Kings there is power, power which lies closest to the surface in all the old bloodlines except for yours. Mighty and terrible were the Red Kings of the Age of Heroes, able to take on the skill and aspect of whatever skin they wore. Allow Frost to try and reawaken these powers in Cregan Bolton. Time: 1 season. Cost: 125 gold. DC: 55. Reward: The Red Gift reawakens in Cregan Bolton.

[] The Gift of Might: The Umbers were kings once as well, and their blood is ancient as the Bolton's. It is said that the hill that Last Hearth rests on was lifted up and thrown to its current location by one of their many powerful warlords in a fit of rage. Send Frost north to awaken these powers in Lord Umber and his sons. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 200 gold. DC: 55. Reward: The Giant's Strength reawakens in Lord Umber and his sons.

[] Ritual Crafting: While the Sacred Arrows created by the rite do not last forever, several other rites do create objects or blessings that last for a long time. While some can be done by some of the more skilled among your Green Men, others are beyond the power of all but Frost, most notably the making of protective talismans. He will devote his time to doing so if you ask and have some of his brethren do the same. Thresholds will be blessed, beast-bane spears given to those in the Wolfswood, and a few sacred arrows will be made as an assurance. Time: 1 season. Cost: 400 gold. DC: 30. Reward: Varying number of rites performed

[] Aggressive Recruiting: Not all who join the Green Men have the skill and strength of will necessary to perform even the simplest rituals, but some do. And some who do have the skill do not join, either for personal reasons or lack of opportunity. Frost refuses to do anything about the first, but the second he can help with. Coin and royal favor will certainly help him find those with the potential to wear the Green. Time: 4 seasons. Cost: 1500 gold. DC: 45. Reward: More Green Men recruited.

Intrigue: Snow is in many ways the total opposite of Rivers. Calm where he is excitable, nondescript where he is distinctive. You can't imagine Snow having any of his predecessor's escapades, although he is most definitely equally competent. He's actually rather terrifying, especially with Janna and the Huntsmen helping him with the more physical side of things. You are fairly certain he is giving Eddard lessons. (Choose 2)

[] From Valley to Peak: Snow knows almost everything that happens in the Vale. There are still a few exceptions, however. Send Snow back to the Vale and have him fill in the last few gaps in his network. Time: 4 seasons. Cost: 800 gold. DC: 65. Reward: Advanced Spy Network (The Vale)

[] Even Deeper Secrets: Snow has people in every house in the North. He has people in every town and city too. But you want more. If your lords meet, you want to know. If anything happens, you want to know. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 600 gold. DC: 55. Reward: Spy Network (The North).

[] Coded Messages: Snow has taken inspiration from the way Princess Argella used coded messages to instruct her agents, and he wants to devise something similar for the Hunters. He isn't quite as brilliant to come up with a way of hiding orders in the weave of a carpet, but he thinks he can manage some way to conceal what he really tells them. Time: 1 season. Cost: None. DC: 50. Reward: Cipher designed, bonus to Hunter actions.

[] Security Procedures: Snow might understand the necessity of what he does, but that doesn't mean he always likes it. For example, he understands that it's important to make sure the upper ranks of your civil service keep the acolytes away from anything you would consider sensitive such as the making of concrete, the printing press, and the carding factory. He just finds the process of teaching people really tedious. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 50 gold, Citadel attention. DC: 43. Reward: Acolytes kept away from sensitive information, basic security procedures taught to civil service.

[] Further Afield (Kingdom): You have ways of hearing what happens in the immediate south, but now you find yourself concerned with what's happening even further away. Pick a kingdom or nation and let Snow get to work. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 100 gold. DC: Varies. Reward: Rumor mill for chosen location.

[] Deeper Rivers Part 3: Every time you hear new information about the Ironborn in the Riverlands, it's something disturbing. Still, you need to get as much advanced warning as possible. There's almost nothing left for Snow to try and co-opt, but he can try and solidify his network at least a little. Time: 3 seasons. Cost: 800 gold. DC: 85. Reward: Advanced Spy Network (The Riverlands).

[] In the West, Part 3: You are almost as reluctant to send people to the Westerlands as you are to the Riverlands, but you want word if King Lorren starts planning a crusade or something equally significant happens. You have men in enough places to have a fair warning of anything like that, but you will want more, especially if you are planning to use the Huntsmen in any significant capacity. Establishing safe houses for them would be extremely important. Time: 3 seasons. Cost: 900 gold. DC: 90. Reward: Advanced Spy Network (The Westerlands)

[] Harrenhal: The network in Harrenhal has been devastated by Harren's sudden assault on it and by the sheer slaughter he has wreaked in and around his accursed castle. Some say even the very stones are whispering to him, identifying traitors, and that blood drips from the walls instead of dew. You are uncertain just how true that is…but you need to find out. Having advanced warning of anything he is planning could mean the difference between victory and defeat. Fortunately, you have some fairly expendable agents to send south. The Hunters are best at killing, but some could handle spying. Especially since the castle is half empty, meaning they have plenty of space to hide. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 200 gold. DC: 70. Reward: Get another spy in Harrenhal, information.

[] Kill Someone (Target): Name your target and spend the necessary amount on supplies, and give both to Janna. They will die, although it's unlikely to be subtle. And if they are caught, there will be retaliation. Best be careful. Time: Varies. Cost: Varies: DC: Varies. Reward: A corpse. Please @ me when you use this action so I can give you the numbers.

[] What's going on in Essos?: You have been hearing reports from Essos every so often, but nothing credible. Have Snow collect rumors and sailor's tales and try and spin them together into something coherent and at least a little accurate, although it will be vague as well. Time: 1 season. Cost: 25 gold. DC: 58. Reward: Mostly accurate but very general description of what's going on in Essos.

[] Deceptive Attack: Instead of using the Hunters to assassinate a specific lord or king, you will have them unleash havoc near the Golden Tooth, trying to make it look like Harren's reavers are the ones responsible. Bandits will be given gold to attack farms and caravans, villages will be slaughtered, and scraps of black cloth will be left behind. Attempts will be made at suggesting it was the Ironborn through other methods, such as shouting about the Drowned God and making sure there are survivors. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 100 gold. DC: 75. Reward: Loren grows more hostile to Ironborn.

[] Spy on Pyrite: Snow is reluctant to do this, for personal reasons and professional ones. Pyrite is the one who taught him everything he knows and they still keep up a friendly correspondence when they exchange information. And almost every man you have in the Vale passes his information through Pyrite, including the ones who watch the watchers. Getting someone new without his notice will be extremely difficult. But you need the information he is keeping from you and you can't trust that he will just give it to you. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 150 gold, possibly the relationship with Pyrite. DC: 80. Reward: Everything Pyrite knows on the Rite, the beastmen, and Lord Upcliff.

[] Make a Prophecy (Topic): Why find a prophecy when you can just take some parchment, stain it so it looks old, and then write down whatever nonsense you want? Whether to persuade the dragonlords to go to Essos or to suggest that they should tread carefully around the direwolf, make up a prophecy and pass it off as the real thing to Aegon and his sisters, hopefully convincing them that whatever you wrote is real. Or at least that you were fooled by the "prophecy" too. Fortunately, given the way Rhaenys talked, it shouldn't take too much to persuade her of its veracity. She seemed quite obsessed with them. Time: 2 season. Cost: 100 gold. DC: 65. Reward: Fake prophecy about chosen topic.

[] Friends Among the Fey: The fey are everywhere in the Reach. Literally everywhere. Snow intends to take advantage of that when building his spy network there, leaning on the Green Men to identify ways to recruit the little house fey and tricksome gremlins and bribe them into telling his agents things. He expects to not be the only one doing so. He also expects it to not be a problem. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 400 gold. DC: 50. Reward: Spy Network (The Reach).

[] Iron Spies: Most of the Iron Islands seems to be in the grip of mad servants of the Drowned God, with crazed priests ruling just as much as the lords do and horrific abominations skulking in shadows or parading about, eager to raid and destroy. It takes a very brave man to go gathering information there. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 900 gold, upkeep. DC: 50. Reward: Simple Spy Network (The Iron Islands).

[] Find the Leader: The banditry has displeased Snow at least as much as it displeased you. He intends for those responsible to be found and given to the king's justice. Specifically, he wants the leader, who he suspects is connected with the bloody butchery being done in the north of the Wolfswood. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 100 gold. DC: 65. Reward: Bandit leader found.

Personal: There's always plenty to do when it comes to being a king. Even outside of your official duties, you can make decrees and issue commands. Of course, you can also spend time with your family, help an advisor, or try and explain some of your knowledge to your advisors. (Choose 2)

[] Uplift ____: You recall an invention or system, and try to figure out how it worked well enough that someone else can make it a reality. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: Varies. Reward: New action unlocked

[] Propose Fostering/Betrothal: It's a simple matter for you to agree to the proposals you received about fostering and betrothals, either in whole or in part. Time: 1 season. Cost: None. DC: Varies. Reward: Betrothal and/or Fostering(s) arranged

[] Warging Practice: There are very few things you can't do when it comes to warging. There is one challenge you have left to face. It will not be easy, you can be certain of that, even though it is a simple progression of your splitting yourself between your direwolf and yourself. You will split yourself between multiple animals at once. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: 85. Reward: You get more skilled at warging.

[] Beast Bonding: Go riding in the Wolfswood and find a worthy beast to bond with. You aren't entirely certain what the side effects would be. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: Special. Reward: You get some sort of beast bond, possible side effects.

[] The God's Eyes: While you can open the God's Eyes more or less at will now, it can be difficult to keep them open, especially in places full of magic like Winterfell. You also suspect you are missing a great deal of nuance when you look at people or more complicated items like your crown, which just looks like plain metal. Or that skin, which makes you shudder whenever you think of it. Further practice could also extend how long you can use this gift. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: 70. Reward: Greater control and skill with the God's Eyes, more information about the skin.

[] Speak to an Advisor: You want to know more about the people you work with. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: 50. Reward: Gain knowledge of an advisor, improved opinion.

[] Family Time: Your sons are less than pleased with each other and with you. Your wife is unhappy with you, and you suspect her tolerance of magic is being tested, especially when you can sometimes see her emotions. Try to mend fences, reconcile your sons, and reassure your wife. Bend all your diplomatic skills to doing so. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: 40. Reward: You feel better, your family feels better.

[] Train Your Children (Stat): You have been making your sons go to lessons like green boys. Now it is time to teach them like men. Have them learn by shadowing you, by leading their own projects, and by discussion. You'll probably rely a lot on history for those discussions, ones you remember having with your own father as he taught you the arts of persuasion and deception. You will have to decide what to focus on teaching your sons of course. Time: 3 seasons. Cost: 0. DC: 55. Reward: Eddard's and Edwyle's stats improve, chance of trait, chance of your stats improving.

Treasury: 6010 gold

Income: 1925 gold (taxes) + 2150 gold (trade) + 400 gold (farming) + 100 gold (fur) + 325 gold (wool) + 420 gold (mines) + 80 gold (paper) + 50 gold (logging)

Expenditures: -20 gold (signal towers), -10 gold (stables), -10 gold (scouts), - 75 gold (various tariff/tax reductions for houses), -15 gold (Snowcloaks), -500 gold(Kingly things), - 10 gold (civil service), - 25 gold (Wardens), - 200 gold (Winterfell Guard) – 150 gold (Rumors and spies)

Net Income: 4435 gold

Food Supply: Medium surplus

Attitudes and Power Blocs

State of the Realm

The hiatus is over.

Elder Haman · Apr 28, 2020

notbirdofprey said:
[] Issue Command (Power Bloc): Give a command to those under your command, spending gold and favors to ensure that they will do so without dragging their feet. Even with the best of wills, failure is still possible of course. Time: Varies. Cost: Varies. DC: Varies. Reward: Varies. Please @ me when doing this action, which is a free action that can be done as many times as you want. Possible resources to spend include gold, Influence, upkeep, the services of your advisor (actions), and special resources. The difficulty will vary based off power, opinion, what the actual command is, and how much you spend.

We have a few things to do here. First is how much additional money should we send to the Barrowlords to have them continue Fortifying the Rivers. Second we probably want another fleet built at Tolget's Yard and at Barrowtown (but with the Dustin's busy Fortifying the River we probably need to do the fleet our self). And we want Logging Camps built around Deepwood Motte, which has to be done with a command, and we want that done by autumn which means this turn or next. Although maybe we should solve the logging issues first?

Any way:

@notbirdofprey If we send the Barrowlords an additional 1000 gold to fortify the Rivers, what kind of DC will they have? What do we need to send them to get them to a 45 DC?

[] Issue Command (Western Lords): Expand Logging Camps around Deepwood Motte and Tolgett's Yard, 300 Gold

What are the DCs for the above? Does succeeding at the Diplomacy action "Bloody Logging Problems" effect the DC levels for the above command? Does that effect occur if we take the action the same turn and succeed at it? Or do we need to first succeed at the diplomacy action this turn, and then order the expansion of logging next turn to get the benefits?

notbirdofprey said:
[] Build a Fleet (Location): Ironborn and slavers threaten your coasts, and you have gone long enough without a fleet. Order one of your vassals to begin constructing ships, and offer gold and workers to see it done. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 2900 gold. DC: 45. Reward: A new fleet.

We have to take this this turn if we want to succeed at the Barrow Houses quest, (reward 1d4 influence and +15 tot he next fleet construction action). Which reminds me, @notbirdofprey we should have at least one +15 to building a fleet on the West coast because of the success of the last Western Lords quest right? That would apply to this action correct?

notbirdofprey said:
[] Blood in the Wood: You will not allow your vassals to be terrorized and murdered, not if you can do anything about it. Send in the Guard, send in the Wardens, get them support from the Green Men, and deal with the redcaps who are attacking your people. Make examples out of them, make it absolutely clear that to harm the North is to harm you, and you will not stand for it. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 100 gold, chance of decreased relations with fey. DC: 50. Reward: Lines drawn with fey, vassal approval.

Another action we need to take... although I suppose we could perhaps use an Issue Command for this, though I'd rather not...

notbirdofprey said:
[] Bloody Logging Problems: Two of your houses are in dispute with…quite a few vassals, fey, people sworn directly to you, people not really sworn to anyone…it's a mess of competing claims, arguments, near-rebellion, and feuding. Things have steadily escalated, almost to the level where it will start eroding your authority if things keep going. Stomp on it now, before it gets worse. Especially if it spread. Time: 1 season. Cost: 350 gold. DC: 45. Reward: Claims and disputes settled before they boil over more.

[] The Fair Folk: Your relationship with the Old Gods clearly provides a measure of protection. You would love it if it provided you with more, since the fey are still being a pain. Make some effort to learn more about the factions and the powers of the fey, and hope that what you learn is helpful and accurate. Time: 1 season. Cost: 20 gold. DC: 30/60. Reward: Information about the fey.

Two Diplomacy actions I'd like to take, but we have to use our Free Action on the Logging Problems I guess. Should we use our double down there? I'd rather use it elsewhere, but we're basically out of time to get it done so maybe we ought to to make sure it succeeds?

notbirdofprey said:
[] The Wolf's Walls: One of the best ways to distinguish an actual town from a collection of houses and shops is the presence of walls. Only chartered towns may have them, and while your town lacks them it will never quite be seen properly. They also serve the twin functions of defense and helping keep order. Time: 3 seasons. Cost: 400 gold. DC: 25. Reward: Wintertown gets good walls.

This is probably a good Stewardship action to take, as we've been putting it off for a while.

notbirdofprey said:
[] More Logging Camps: When logging camps were first set up, nearly a dozen sites were surveyed, but only a few were selected in the end. There simply wasn't enough gold to build all the shelters and purchase all the tools needed. Fortunately, this means that with some more gold more logging camps can be established in very little time. Really, the only preparation required will be building shelters and then the woodsmen can get to cutting trees and sending them back to Wintertown. Time: 1 season. Cost: 250 gold. DC: 25. Reward: One-time income, increase to logging income, increase to trade.

This is a decent choice.

notbirdofprey said:
[] Expand the Schools: You've a school in Winterfell which serves a few dozen children and less than twenty adults as a part-time duty for one or two of the acolytes. Buy a small building in Wintertown, give those acolytes the full-time duty of teaching people to read and write, give an incentive or two for people to learn and then join up with the civil service, and you expect to have classes much larger. Hopefully at least a few of the graduates will fill in the gaps in your civil service. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 900 gold, upkeep, Citadel attention. DC: 45. Reward: Increased literacy, support for civil service, Citadel attention.

But this is the one I'd like to take most of all, as it will help with the Merchant Quest.

notbirdofprey said:
[] A Glass Candle: Glass candles are peculiar things. Useful, immensely useful…if every vassal had one, it would be so much easier to send messages, for one thing, but there is much you don't know about them. Can they be listened on? What are their limitations? Is there any risk of some wicked spirit possessing the user? Have Brynden and the acolytes try and answer these extremely important questions, and maybe find a bit more about the higher mysteries. Time: 3 seasons. Cost: 400 gold. DC: 65. Reward: Knowledge of glass candles, hints of Valyrian magic

[] Strange Rites: The Old Gods are not the only ones who can grant power. Even leaving aside everything you have encountered in Westeros, you have heard of the warlocks of Qarth, the Jade Magisters of Far Yi Ti, the priests of Rh'llor the Red, the shadowbinders of Asshai…there are more traditions of Westeros then you can count. Scour a few libraries in the North, see if you can gather any information about how these other rites can be used and how to perform them. Time: 1-5 seasons. Cost: 1000 gold. DC: 30/60/90. Reward: ??

[] Spread Knowledge: You have made some useful things, like the waterwheels which can provide immense power, and soon you will have a chain ballista. There's also the printing press, although you may want to consider keeping that under wraps for the moment. And of course, there's concrete, and then there are the things you haven't really implemented: seed drills and copper-bottomed ships and the like. Tell your lords about them and encourage them to use these to improve their desmenes. Time: 1 season. Cost: 120 gold. DC: 30. Reward: Can spread as many or as few technologies as desired.

[] New Darning: There's a couple devices in your darning barn that do it differently than the traditional methods. It's faster and it works better as well, and its one of the reasons that you are making so much coin from it. Find out who came up with it, find out more about how these work, and spread them to the rest of the barn. Time: 1 season. Cost: 100 gold, optional reward. DC: 45. Reward: Learn more about darning.

A bunch of new options available for learning, all of them interesting. New Darning in particular is interesting, it might lead us to an inventor?

notbirdofprey said:
[] Copy Books: Create some copies of books for the Citadel. They will pay you a good price for it, but they will also be trying to figure out how you do it, and saying yes risks your monopoly. Saying no will get their attention as well though. Time: 1 season. Cost: 25 gold. DC: 35. Reward: Increased attention from the Citadel, one-time income.

[] Improving Rivers: Not all rivers are suitable to place waterwheels on. Some don't have the necessary current to drive a wheel, some don't have a steep enough drop, some are simply to narrow. There are beasts which can shape the water to their needs – most prominently beavers, which are admittedly rare through much of the North. But if they can do it, surely men can as well? Time: 3 seasons. Cost: 600 gold. DC: 65. Reward: Dams, weirs, and mill ponds. New actions unlocked.

These are the two old standards that are important to us. Copy Books will help with the Merchant Quest, Improving Rivers is go for us in a lot of way, and probably we should do before we take the Spread Knowledge Action? As it will make water mills easier to develop in other areas.

notbirdofprey said:
[] The Chain Ballista: The weapon Brandon sketched out looks like it could be lethally effective. Of course, it was roughly sketched out on the back of a ripped requisition form while Brandon was running on half a night's sleep, so there are probably more things wrong with the design than you can shake a stick at. Have Maester Brynden take a look at it, refine the design somewhat, and make a couple test versions. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 100 gold. DC: 55. Reward: Rapid-fire ballista design.

@notbirdofprey Didn't we already take this action? In fact, I thought it was locked for one more season, and that we wouold have only one learning action this turn. Did we gain an extra learning action because of our additional acolytes?

notbirdofprey said:
[] Seek the Pattern: Frost suspects there is a pattern of some kind to the rituals. "A great working of god, Singer, and man, like all made a tapestry out of a single thread," he described it, although you get the impression he was grasping for words, like trying to describe in detail how a bank works in the Old Tongue. One of the acolytes who came north with Valyrian steel in his chain seems to agree, although you don't like the way he watches the godswood, looking at it almost like a butcher looks at a hog. Certain limits will be put in place, and they will be abided by. Frost, you can trust on that. The others, you find yourself uncertain. Time: 3 seasons. Cost: 300 gold. DC: 85. Reward: ??

Oooh... tempting... but we really need a double down for it... although I guess it's not that expensive, so maybe we can just hope for good luck?

notbirdofprey said:
[] Ritual Crafting: While the Sacred Arrows created by the rite do not last forever, several other rites do create objects or blessings that last for a long time. While some can be done by some of the more skilled among your Green Men, others are beyond the power of all but Frost, most notably the making of protective talismans. He will devote his time to doing so if you ask and have some of his brethren do the same. Thresholds will be blessed, beast-bane spears given to those in the Wolfswood, and a few sacred arrows will be made as an assurance. Time: 1 season. Cost: 400 gold. DC: 30. Reward: Varying number of rites performed

Otherwise probably this one.

notbirdofprey said:
[] Even Deeper Secrets: Snow has people in every house in the North. He has people in every town and city too. But you want more. If your lords meet, you want to know. If anything happens, you want to know. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 600 gold. DC: 55. Reward: Spy Network (The North).

[] Coded Messages: Snow has taken inspiration from the way Princess Argella used coded messages to instruct her agents, and he wants to devise something similar for the Hunters. He isn't quite as brilliant to come up with a way of hiding orders in the weave of a carpet, but he thinks he can manage some way to conceal what he really tells them. Time: 1 season. Cost: None. DC: 50. Reward: Cipher designed, bonus to Hunter actions.

[] Security Procedures: Snow might understand the necessity of what he does, but that doesn't mean he always likes it. For example, he understands that it's important to make sure the upper ranks of your civil service keep the acolytes away from anything you would consider sensitive such as the making of concrete, the printing press, and the carding factory. He just finds the process of teaching people really tedious. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 50 gold, Citadel attention. DC: 43. Reward: Acolytes kept away from sensitive information, basic security procedures taught to civil service.

[] Harrenhal: The network in Harrenhal has been devastated by Harren's sudden assault on it and by the sheer slaughter he has wreaked in and around his accursed castle. Some say even the very stones are whispering to him, identifying traitors, and that blood drips from the walls instead of dew. You are uncertain just how true that is…but you need to find out. Having advanced warning of anything he is planning could mean the difference between victory and defeat. Fortunately, you have some fairly expendable agents to send south. The Hunters are best at killing, but some could handle spying. Especially since the castle is half empty, meaning they have plenty of space to hide. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 200 gold. DC: 70. Reward: Get another spy in Harrenhal, information.

[] Friends Among the Fey: The fey are everywhere in the Reach. Literally everywhere. Snow intends to take advantage of that when building his spy network there, leaning on the Green Men to identify ways to recruit the little house fey and tricksome gremlins and bribe them into telling his agents things. He expects to not be the only one doing so. He also expects it to not be a problem. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 400 gold. DC: 50. Reward: Spy Network (The Reach).

[] Iron Spies: Most of the Iron Islands seems to be in the grip of mad servants of the Drowned God, with crazed priests ruling just as much as the lords do and horrific abominations skulking in shadows or parading about, eager to raid and destroy. It takes a very brave man to go gathering information there. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 900 gold, upkeep. DC: 50. Reward: Simple Spy Network (The Iron Islands).

[] Find the Leader: The banditry has displeased Snow at least as much as it displeased you. He intends for those responsible to be found and given to the king's justice. Specifically, he wants the leader, who he suspects is connected with the bloody butchery being done in the north of the Wolfswood. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 100 gold. DC: 65. Reward: Bandit leader found.

So we have a lot of Intrigue actions that we need to take... I feel like we defeinately need to take the Find the Leader action, as that is just a problem waiting to get bigger. I'd really like to take the Security Procedures again... and I want the Deeper Secrets (mainly for the counter intelligence bonus) but... I think the most urgent is the Coded Messages - because in one or two turns we will want to kill all the Ironborn spies, so I think we want that bonus to Hunter actions.

We also need to take Iron Spies and Harrenhall if possible. Maybe we need to use our Free action here for the next few turns (after we solve this bloody logging problem).

notbirdofprey said:
[] The God's Eyes: While you can open the God's Eyes more or less at will now, it can be difficult to keep them open, especially in places full of magic like Winterfell. You also suspect you are missing a great deal of nuance when you look at people or more complicated items like your crown, which just looks like plain metal. Or that skin, which makes you shudder whenever you think of it. Further practice could also extend how long you can use this gift. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: 70. Reward: Greater control and skill with the God's Eyes, more information about the skin.

So I'd like to use a double down with this, but I also noticed that the difficulty has decreased a bit. Maybe we could try it without?

notbirdofprey said:
[] Uplift ____: You recall an invention or system, and try to figure out how it worked well enough that someone else can make it a reality. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: Varies. Reward: New action unlocked

I think we need to start on Uplifts again, if only as a hedge against us dying int he war. The two most important and the textile mill, and fertilizer/chemistry. With the threshing machine a close third. If we are using our double down elsewhere, maybe we take two uplift actions this turn?

Stardust&Scotch · Apr 28, 2020

[X] Naval Gazing

Military: (Choose 1)
-[X] Build a Fleet (Barrowton). Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 2900 gold. DC: 45. Reward: A new fleet.

Diplomacy: (Choose 0) (+1 Free Action)
-[X] Bloody Logging Problems. Time: 1 season. Cost: 350 gold. DC: 45. Reward: Claims and disputes settled before they boil over more.
--[X] double-down

Stewardship: (Choose 2)
-[X] New Mills. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 300 gold. DC: 30. Reward: Increase to farming income.
-[X] More Logging Camps. Time: 1 season. Cost: 250 gold. DC: 25. Reward: One-time income, increase to logging income, increase to trade.

Learning: (Choose 1)
-[X] Copy Books. Time: 1 season. Cost: 25 gold. DC: 35. Reward: Increased attention from the Citadel, one-time income.

Piety: (Choose 1)
-[X] Ritual Crafting. Time: 1 season. Cost: 400 gold. DC: 30. Reward: Varying number of rites performed

Intrigue: (Choose 2) (+ Free Intrigue Action)
-[X] Even Deeper Secrets. Time: 3 seasons. Cost: 600 gold. DC: 55. Reward: Spy Network (The North). (+30)
-[X] Security Procedures. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 50 gold, Citadel attention. DC: 43. Reward: Acolytes kept away from sensitive information, basic security procedures taught to civil service.
-[X] Find the Leader. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 100 gold. DC: 65. Reward: Bandit leader found.

Personal: (Choose 2)
-[X] The God's Eyes. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: 70. Reward: Greater control and skill with the God's Eyes, more information about the skin.
-[X] Family Time. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: 40. Reward: You feel better, your family feels better.

Treasury at start: 6010 gold
Plan cost: 4975 gold
Treasury at end: ~5470 gold

I will admit that I'm using placeholders in the Personal slots until we have info from the QM on Elder's queries, and likewise on any Issued Commands, but this plan goes after what we need to get done, plus some needed boosts to our economy, and some inward looking (hence the pun) with the Intrigue and Diplomacy actions. And all that leaves us with only 1035 to spare...so some of the Command ideas will probably have to wait.

force200 · Apr 28, 2020

Since we had some issues with spies lately here's an uplift we might want to consider: The Vigenère cipher. It's pretty staightforward and still took 3 centuries for people to figgure out how to crack it (probably because the nececary math took so long to get invented).

Kelenas · Apr 28, 2020

Elder Haman said:
We have to take this this turn if we want to succeed at the Barrow Houses quest, (reward 1d4 influence and +15 tot he next fleet construction action). Which reminds me, @notbirdofprey we should have at least one +15 to building a fleet on the West coast because of the success of the last Western Lords quest right? That would apply to this action correct?

Another action we need to take... although I suppose we could perhaps use an Issue Command for this, though I'd rather not...

I agree both the fleet and Blood in the Woods are important... but Fortify the Rivers is also fairly important given the upcoming war with the Ironborn, especially since it'll take a while to get done.
Could potentially do it via commands, but that doesn't always work out perfectly.

Elder Haman said:
Two Diplomacy actions I'd like to take, but we have to use our Free Action on the Logging Problems I guess. Should we use our double down there? I'd rather use it elsewhere, but we're basically out of time to get it done so maybe we ought to to make sure it succeeds?

The only double-down alternatives you mentioned are for the Pattern or God's Eye actions, and I don't think it'd really cost us anything to just put those off for a few more turns if need be, so barring anything else I'd say put the double-down here to make it easier for us to solve the fey-problem. Though God's Eye would probably be the next priority after that; we might very well have to find out more about that "film" and the Drowned God if we want to deal with the Ironborn problem permanently.

Elder Haman said:
This is probably a good Stewardship action to take, as we've been putting it off for a while.

This is a decent choice.

But this is the one I'd like to take most of all, as it will help with the Merchant Quest.

We could probably put the Wall-action off a while longer; Winterfell/-town doesn't seem under much threat of attack in the near future, even with the war against the Ironborn in mind (provided we make sure to fortify the White Knife, just in case). There's also the issue that Wintertown will almost certainly still grow a fair amount over the next few years as we invite more craftsmen, grow our civil service, etc. Since the action doesn't seem to take that into account, we could easily end up having to repeat this action in a few years as the town spills out past the newly-built walls.

I very much agree that one of our actions should be spent on the expansion of the school, for reasons that should hopefully be obvious based on my past posts.

For the second action, though, I think we should either choose New Mills or Sky-Mills. Less time spent grinding grain into flour (or things like bark for tanning, once people get the idea) is more time spent on other things. Of the two, I'm tending towards Sky-Mills since it diversifies potential power-sources for machines as well as easing logistics since said machines can be more readily placed where their work is needed.

Elder Haman said:
A bunch of new options available for learning, all of them interesting. New Darning in particular is interesting, it might lead us to an inventor?

New Darning is the one we should pick here, hands down; more innovators mean faster technological progress.

Elder Haman said:
These are the two old standards that are important to us. Copy Books will help with the Merchant Quest, Improving Rivers is go for us in a lot of way, and probably we should do before we take the Spread Knowledge Action? As it will make water mills easier to develop in other areas.

Improving Rivers is likely to be important in the long run, but right now there should still be plenty of places available alongside various rivers and streams where water mills can be built, and windmills/sky-mills are an option as well.

Elder Haman said:
Oooh... tempting... but we really need a double down for it... although I guess it's not that expensive, so maybe we can just hope for good luck?

Otherwise probably this one.

I'm tending towards Ritual Crafting, but admittedly that's less because of the action's potential use in dealing with our current fey-troubles, and more because I'm hoping to encourage magical item crafting in general. Depending on what's possible with that, it could potentially be a great benefit to our efforts to industrialize the North/Planetos by allowing us to duplicate advanced technologies. Magical lamps and the like are a staple in fantasy, for example, and would allow us to to duplicate the benefits of electrical lighting decades before we could realistically afford to start implementing it technologically.

Elder Haman said:
So we have a lot of Intrigue actions that we need to take... I feel like we defeinately need to take the Find the Leader action, as that is just a problem waiting to get bigger. I'd really like to take the Security Procedures again... and I want the Deeper Secrets (mainly for the counter intelligence bonus) but... I think the most urgent is the Coded Messages - because in one or two turns we will want to kill all the Ironborn spies, so I think we want that bonus to Hunter actions.

I generally agree, though I'm a bit worried about the relatively high DC of Find the Leader. Might be better to use the double-down here instead of the fey diplomacy action. Coded Messages and Security Procedures are definitely must-haves to get as soon as possible simply to start getting our people used to things like ciphers, security clearance levels, and the like. In the long run it'd probably be good if we could set up a dedicated de-/encryption department that can continually work on things like new codes for our messages and decoding enemies'/rivals' messages, without us having to spend actions on it.

Elder Haman said:
I think we need to start on Uplifts again, if only as a hedge against us dying int he war. The two most important and the textile mill, and fertilizer/chemistry. With the threshing machine a close third. If we are using our double down elsewhere, maybe we take two uplift actions this turn?

I vehemently disagree on fertilizer. There simply is no need for something like that at this point; 4-field crop rotation will already help to decrease soil exhaustion issues and reduce the need for fertilizer, and organic fertilizers like manure, nightsoil, etc should also be available already.
No offense meant, but would you happen to be a chemist or something like that? Because your continued push for fertilizer/chemistry is honestly starting to look like a pet project of yours...

Far more important for us at this point would be more labor-saving devices. Spinning jennies (what I suspect you probably mean when you talk about textile mills) would be one possibility, though I expect we'll continue to disagree on the importance of it compared to various alternatives. Still, labor-saving is labor-saving.

Some other possibilities in that regard;

- Treading Barn and Winnowing Barns
While not as efficient as actual threshing and winnowing machines, these should require a lot less time and effort on our part to design and would be extremely easy to implement throughout the North, since they only require basic building construction methods. Given how threshing and winnowing are two of the most labor-intensive tasks involved in wheat farming (the third being the harvest), that'd be a fair amount of labor saved.
Downside of course would be that these would quickly become obsolete once we actually get around to introducing threshing and winnowing machines.

- Additional tasks for our existing water- and windmill designs
This would be a fairly low-effort thing to do, where we could easily suggest alternative uses for the grinding-mill design we already have, such as grinding treebark to create powder used in tanning leather, or rotating a grindstone for sharpening blades.
Potentially more complex would be the introduction of tide and ship mills, but that might already be covered under the "Improving Rivers" action.

- Stamp and Trip-Hammer mills
Both are closely related in their design and fulfill fairly similar functions. They're useful in crushing rock and ore for further processing (like smelting, or mixing cement), pressing fruits and vegetables to extract liquids (mostly for making juice or alcohol, but potentially also useful in things like medicine-making, extracting oil, and a bunch of other stuff), fulling (a disgusting step in cloth-making that I suspect everyone would be happy not to have to do with their feet anymore...), paper-making (this would synergize well with our printing-press, further reducing the cost of books and thus making them more readily available to the general public), and of course metalworking (much easier to have a heavy trip hammer or stamp drop down onto the metal to shape it, rather than have the smith swing the hammer himself).

- Rolling and Slitting mills
These are also two very closely related designs, with slitting basically just being rolls with interlocking grooves. The main use here would be in metal-shaping, allowing for the easy and fast creation of metal plates and nails, with the obvious synergy here being our introduction of copper-sheathed hulls. It could also be used to mass-produce simple iron nails, however - something that at this point should still be quite expensive, making for a nice trade-good, and it should also help to make the creation of various forms of armor; almain rivet probably being the most interesting in that regard since it strikes a good balance between effectiveness and cost.

Not strictly a labor-saving invention, but worth considering nonetheless, would be blackpowder. Economically it's interesting for us due to its use in blast-mining, which should help reduce the cost of cement and various metalworking products. However, the main reason to get this now would be the upcoming war against the Ironborn; they do have castles on their islands, and there's obviously Harrenhal to content with, and while we probably wouldn't be able to introduce cannons so quickly, the introduction of blasting charges would likely still give us an immense advantage in the sieges, reducing the potentially year-long effort it'd take to starve out the defenders to a matter of months or even weeks or days. (*cue obligatory Helm's Deep reference*)

@notbirdofprey, how many of the projects I listed or mentioned here could we fit into one uplift action?

Marlin · Apr 28, 2020

I want to establish a spy group in Dorne this turn. I think they are the only group we don't have any spies inside of Westeros.

notbirdofprey · Apr 28, 2020

Elder Haman said:
We have a few things to do here. First is how much additional money should we send to the Barrowlords to have them continue Fortifying the Rivers. Second we probably want another fleet built at Tolget's Yard and at Barrowtown (but with the Dustin's busy Fortifying the River we probably need to do the fleet our self). And we want Logging Camps built around Deepwood Motte, which has to be done with a command, and we want that done by autumn which means this turn or next. Although maybe we should solve the logging issues first?

Any way:

@notbirdofprey If we send the Barrowlords an additional 1000 gold to fortify the Rivers, what kind of DC will they have? What do we need to send them to get them to a 45 DC?

[] Issue Command (Western Lords): Expand Logging Camps around Deepwood Motte and Tolgett's Yard, 300 Gold

What are the DCs for the above? Does succeeding at the Diplomacy action "Bloody Logging Problems" effect the DC levels for the above command? Does that effect occur if we take the action the same turn and succeed at it? Or do we need to first succeed at the diplomacy action this turn, and then order the expansion of logging next turn to get the benefits?

1. It would probably be around DC 60.
2. The Diplomacy DC would be 5, the Stewardship DC would be 90, Bloody Logging Problems and Blood in the Wood would both drastically reduce the DC.

Kelenas said:
@notbirdofprey, how many of the projects I listed or mentioned here could we fit into one uplift action?

To some extent it depends on the roll, but you have a good chance of getting the closely related designs with one action.

Gr33n34r · Apr 28, 2020

I would say that security wise, dealing with the Fey, the feuds and preparing for raids by the Iron born ought to be our top priority.

The Ironborn issue is a martial and perhaps intrigue thing, the fey and feuds is primarily a diplomacy issue that can be helped with a sufficiently big martial stick.

And I feel that some of those feuds are due to fae involvement, probably because the fey find it funny to dick around with some of our more hot headed nobles.

Fallout5368 · Apr 28, 2020

[X] Naval Gazing

Elder Haman · Apr 28, 2020

notbirdofprey said:
1. It would probably be around DC 60.
2. The Diplomacy DC would be 5, the Stewardship DC would be 90, Bloody Logging Problems and Blood in the Wood would both drastically reduce the DC.

@notbirdofprey And if we provided the Barrow Houses with 1800 gold? Would that put the DC back down to the 45 listed in the action?

On the issue of the Logging commnad, do we need to take the Bloody Logging Problem first? And complete it this turn to get the DC reduction for the Command? Or do we need to complete the Bloody Logging this turn, and then Issue command next turn to get the DC reduction?

notbirdofprey said:
Red Cloaks, Red Caps: The forest clans have suffered greatly this season. While the southern clans are involved in a complex dispute with House Tallhart that no one seems to understand, the northern clans and House Forrester are being hunted by figures in red caps and red cloaks with cruel curved knives. Bands of armsmen, the Wardens, and fey are all fighting desperately against these menaces. Tales tell of bloody assassinations in the hearts of castles, of godswoods coming alive to protect supplicants from the red-capped figures, of stout and cunning peasants invoking the power of iron and stabbing fiercely even as their blood was drained to wet the caps of the horrors.

@notbirdofprey Is it possible to send aid to the Forresters using an Issue Command? Since the problem seems to be a lack of actions not a lack of military resources.

Can we say, do something like this:

[] Issue Command (House Forrester, Green Men): Deal with the redcaps who are attacking your people. Make examples out of them. Cost: 100 Gold, the services of the Forest Wardens, our Winterfell Guard (under the command of Eddard Stark), and the support of the Green Men.

What would that DC look like? Would it cost us 1 Influence? Do we need to spend additional gold to lower the DC?

notbirdofprey said:
The Rebel of the West: Discontent continues to simmer as Crakehall is raided again and again despite the best efforts of the Blessed and the Redeemed, while the remaining rebels somehow managed to steal a dozen ships from the Farman fleet and used them to run down a few escaping longboats, returning thralls and salt-wives to their grateful families. When these families tried to provide further aid to their rescuers, King Lorren's men appeared and ran them down, hauling off those who survived in chains. He has threatened to make an example of House Crakehall if they do not correct their errors. No one knows what he means by this. No one wants to know.

-According to Snow: Hugh Hill, the leader of the rebels, is a cold, cold bastard. He tipped off one of the King's men deliberately so that King Lorren would find out and arrest the smallfolk. Then he sent singers out and about to make sure everyone knew how terrible the king was, and he finds more steel and more hands to wield it for his cause. And yet he has to know he will lose. The hills are being scoured, and the area he has to operate in is slowly being reduced…

Interesting... I'm wondering if there might be an opportunity to at minimum give House Crakehall refuge in the North? Much like we did to the Manderlys?

Tentative Plan:

[] Issue Command (Barrow Houses): Send them more gold to help fortify the rivers ~1800 Gold
[] Issue Command To Deal with Redcaps? Depends on answers to questions above from the QM ~100 Gold

Martial (1 action)
[] Build a Fleet (Barrowtown): Ironborn and slavers threaten your coasts, and you have gone long enough without a fleet. Order one of your vassals to begin constructing ships, and offer gold and workers to see it done. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 2900 gold. DC: 45. Reward: A new fleet.

Diplomacy (0 actions)

[] Free Action: Double Down: Bloody Logging Problems: Two of your houses are in dispute with…quite a few vassals, fey, people sworn directly to you, people not really sworn to anyone…it's a mess of competing claims, arguments, near-rebellion, and feuding. Things have steadily escalated, almost to the level where it will start eroding your authority if things keep going. Stomp on it now, before it gets worse. Especially if it spread. Time: 1 season. Cost: 350 gold. DC: 45. Reward: Claims and disputes settled before they boil over more.

Stewardship (2 actions)

[] More Logging Camps: When logging camps were first set up, nearly a dozen sites were surveyed, but only a few were selected in the end. There simply wasn't enough gold to build all the shelters and purchase all the tools needed. Fortunately, this means that with some more gold more logging camps can be established in very little time. Really, the only preparation required will be building shelters and then the woodsmen can get to cutting trees and sending them back to Wintertown. Time: 1 season. Cost: 250 gold. DC: 25. Reward: One-time income, increase to logging income, increase to trade.

[] Sky-Mills: Many of the rivers you would build waterwheels on have drifting chunks of ice that would make construction less practical, and in any case, there are only so many places waterwheels can be built where they would provide enough power to be worthwhile. Windmills, however, require only empty fields to function and clear weather to be built. And they would serve just as well for grinding grain into flour. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 250 gold. DC: 35. Reward: Increase to farming income.

Learning (1 actions)

[] Copy Books: Create some copies of books for the Citadel. They will pay you a good price for it, but they will also be trying to figure out how you do it, and saying yes risks your monopoly. Saying no will get their attention as well though. Time: 1 season. Cost: 25 gold. DC: 35. Reward: Increased attention from the Citadel, one-time income.

Piety (1 action):

[] Rites of the Flesh: The First Men and the Children of the Forest learned much from each other once the Pact was sworn, but much has been forgotten. Frost and his brethren will begin to seek the rites of the man, woman, and child and attempt to recreate them. Time: 4 seasons. Cost: 50 gold. DC: 75. Reward: New magic unlocked

Intrigue (3 actions):

[] Find the Leader: The banditry has displeased Snow at least as much as it displeased you. He intends for those responsible to be found and given to the king's justice. Specifically, he wants the leader, who he suspects is connected with the bloody butchery being done in the north of the Wolfswood. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 100 gold. DC: 65. Reward: Bandit leader found.

[] Coded Messages: Snow has taken inspiration from the way Princess Argella used coded messages to instruct her agents, and he wants to devise something similar for the Hunters. He isn't quite as brilliant to come up with a way of hiding orders in the weave of a carpet, but he thinks he can manage some way to conceal what he really tells them. Time: 1 season. Cost: None. DC: 50. Reward: Cipher designed, bonus to Hunter actions.

[] Free Intrigue Action: Security Procedures: Snow might understand the necessity of what he does, but that doesn't mean he always likes it. For example, he understands that it's important to make sure the upper ranks of your civil service keep the acolytes away from anything you would consider sensitive such as the making of concrete, the printing press, and the carding factory. He just finds the process of teaching people really tedious. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 50 gold, Citadel attention. DC: 43. Reward: Acolytes kept away from sensitive information, basic security procedures taught to civil service.

Personal (2 actions):

[] Uplift Textile Mills: Carding, Drawing, Spinning (the spinning jenny, water frame, and spinning mule), Weaving prep, and the Power Loom. Mainly focused on wool, but with some notes on how it can be modified for cotton or flax. Probably ought to include a design for the cotton gin while at it. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: Varies. Reward: New action unlocked

[] Uplift Basic Chemistry with a focus on Fertilizer: Create a book with what you can remember of the periodic table of elements, basic chemistry, with extra details on fertilizer. Book is to be disguised as a Westrosi adventurer's translation of a manuscript dating to the Kingdom of Sanor he discovered while stranded in Saath. The translated manuscript itself claims to be a translated summary (which we can use as an excuse to gloss over gaps in our knowledge) of a larger work on alchemy dating to the Empire of the Dawn. We got a copy of this book from a merchant (Devan Waters) who claimed that he stopped in Saath and the locals sold him the goods of a Rodrick Snow who had died there 70 years earlier. Devan Waters brought it to us because he had heard we could easily make copies of books, he did not sell us the original, but only allowed us to keep a copy. He claimed to be a merchant from Duskendale, but he looked like Dornishman, and he spoke with a Myrish accent. Details on gunpowder/explosives creation are to be listed as well in our personal copy, but kept seperate from the book we make public. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: Varies. Reward: New action unlocked

Basically, I'm assuming this is a distillation of our knowledge of chemistry which I expect to be focused on fertilizer due to our knowledge of agriculture, but with a lot of little things that are common knowledge (or common for people to look into just because it's cool - like how to make gunpowder). We give it a cover story so that people will look in the wrong places for the source of the knowledge, and also to give it the sheen of ancient knowledge to enhance it's reputation and make people more likely to investigate it.

It's still a long ways to actual fertilizer production and a chemical industry, but it's the first step, and if we end up dying in battle or something, Eddard would still probably be able to figure some things out with the help of Maester Brynden.

@notbirdofprey How are those Uplift actions? Do they have DCs in stages with various levels of knowledge included?

Also, could you give some DC information on the following ideas that Kelenas had?

[] Uplift Threshing and Winnowing machines. Powered by either horse or mill power. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: Varies. Reward: New action unlocked

[] Uplift Rolling and Slitting mills. To produce metal sheeting and nails. Both to help reduce the cost of copper sheeting, but also to produce more trade goods from the forges. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: Varies. Reward: New action unlocked

Marlowe310811 said:
[X] Naval Gazing

Pretty good plan. Maybe replace Ritual Crafting with Rites of the Flesh? We still have at least 5 turns before we go to war with the Ironborn (since the target date is 4 seasons after Winter ends). If we complete one round in each type of ritual, maybe that will decrease the DC of the Pattern?

And maybe switch out additional water mills for sky mills? That way we'd have more new techs to spread knowledge of when we eventually take that option.

Also, I think that we should take Coded Messages instead of Deeper Secrets. That way we will have an Intrigue slot open next turn incase we need it, and save us 550 gold on this turn. We'd do Deeper Secrets next turn unless something urgent came up.

That would be 4025 Gold which would give us around 1900 gold to expend on the issue commands (since I think we should try to get the DC on Fortify Rivers down to 50 st least).

Cgce said:
I see that the book writing is something very important for you but i have a question:right now if we write those books(if our main character have the needed knowledged to write them,can you or any average person with a college education write those books from memory without any reference materials at all) who will benefit from them?Our normal people doesnt know how to read or write,those who do dont have the necesary education or time for something like this and the maester either wont belive what we write bc of lack of evidence and bc it goes agaisnt years of tradition and of what it is accepted(think about europe,how much time it took for various new ideas to be accepted) or if they believ it,they will keep the knowledge and decide how to use it.So our books did nothing to help anyone.

Well, there is obviously going to be gaps in our knowledge. But even though I am not a chemist (my college education is in economics) I know that the periodic table of elements exists, I can name all the Noble Gases from Helium to Radon, all of the reactive non-metals, all of the periodic table through the 3rd period, and almost all of the fourth period (it's basically a couple of the transition metals that I can't remember). And I remember that copper, silver, and gold are all in one column (last of the transition metals).

I remember that there are covalent bonds (sharing an electron), ionic bonds (formed between ions), and metallic bonds. I also remember there being weak bonds, but not much about those. Of course, that means that I also know that there is something called an atom, and a rough idea of the nature of those atoms (neutrons and positrons in the core, and electrons orbiting around it in different orbits) which is what gives the periodic table it's form.

I know some of the molecular formula, such as H2O of course, carbone dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), rust (FeO, FeO2, Fe3O4), sulfuric acid (H2SO4), nitroglycerin (C3H5N3O9). I remember that baking soda is called sodium bicarbonate, but not the actual formula. So not a lot, but enough to demonstrate the idea, which can give our current timeline chemists a place to start.

I'd suspect that our character having knowledge of the production of fertilizer would remember slightly more, if skewed towards fertilizer rather than something like plastics.

As for your concerns about usefulness, we obviously are going to need it if we intend to do anything chemical related. Most nobles are literate, and thus they would be able to access it, and if they can't implement it themselves, realize that it's worth hiring someone who can. Maesters are going to be interested int he claims, and want to test it. Some maesters might decide to hoard the information, but others would try to use it to benefit their lords. And of course there are the Alchemist Guild who would certainly be interested, and other educated people such as Braavosi engineers who might be interested.

But most of all, I'm assuming that we are going to create some kind of institution to research chemistry, and they will certainly need such a book.

Cgce said:
But if we start a superior school(like a college or something) we can encourage people to research new things and we may give them some clues for the direction of the research.Like this is a lot better then some books written with something we barely remember or understand.

I still don't understand why you keep making this an either a school or a book question. It seems obvious to me that we need both. A college without books on the most upto date knowledge are not nearly as useful. I mean, I accept that we need to both create a college and record our knowledge in a form that others can access (a book seems like the simplest way to me, but I won't object to a nother method if someone can propose one).

Now I think that it makes sense to start with the book, as it's simpler, less expensive, hedges against our premature death, and can be used for other purposes (such as gifts to make the maesters like us, or encouraging individual experimentation); and I feel that the college is not going to be effective without the book first existing - and the book exisitng will make it easier to attract the knowledgable people we need to create a college. But if you you want to argue that we should build the college first and then create the book, okay, I think that is the wrong order, but at least we'd agree that both are necessary. Instead you keep making arguments that a book is not worth doing at all. Which I don't understand.

Cgce said:
And about your fertilizer idea we may do this a lot simpler:we gather all the human and animal waste and deposit in covered pits and we use it as a fertilizer.No need for chemical fertilizer with our level of agriculture.

I'm pretty sure that farmers know about the use of manure as fertilizer. That's pretty old knowledge. Also, a chemical industry is useful for a lot of things. It just makes sense that fertilizer is going to be the first thing to get it started, since food is a major concern.

Cgce said:
And water powered looms take people to operate to a industrial scale,people we dont have.Those people will work only at those jobs and we simply cant afford this right now.But any improvement in agriculture that save manepower and works is a gods sends for the north.

Textile mills, including power looms, reduce the amount of labor to create the same number of clothing. It's a labor saving device, that's why it was so valuable.

Kelenas said:
In the interest of avoiding assumptions on my part, I'd like you to define what exactly you mean when you're talking about "textile mills", because the definitions I found online are somewhat broad and can range from machines that perform a single specific manufacturing step - such as turning fiber into yarn - to large facilities that cover the entire process from raw materials to finished pieces of clothing, and the way you talk about them throughout both this and other posts of yours also seems to vary.

Everything from carding machines, spinning, and up to power looms. We have that knowledge, we payed during character creation to have it, so lets use it.

Kelenas said:
As for sources, the issue that immediately jumps out to me is that the ones you list are all from the 18th or 19th century, which isn't really representative of our current situation. As a reminder; in terms of agricultural technology we seem to be closer to the 10th or 11th century or even earlier, given how watermills were only starting to be introduced to the North at the beginning of the quest (for contrast, 11th century England already had records of thousands of watermills). As such, we are currently lacking several centuries of development and innovations in areas like agriculture, textile manufacturing, etc - as well as the resulting social developments and changes - that your sources are based on, rendering them rather questionable in the context of our situation.

Considering that what I remembered hearing/reading did include female labor in regards to cloth-making - contrary to your assumption - amongst other things, it's quite possible that the source of our disagreement is indeed a differing focus of source material; just that the focus differs in time periods, rather than genders as you assume.
Based on that, while textile making was a task exclusive to women (and young children), it was a task that was only performed during the winter (with men having their own gender-exlusive winter task in the form of felling trees and cutting firewood); the rest of the year the women would generally help work the farm alongside the men (and the children as well).
It's quite possible that by the 18th/19th centuries that various innovations in agriculture, textile manufacturing, and other areas might have changed that to the point where it was both possible and economically preferable for women to spend most of their time spinning rather than working the farm, even outside of winter time, but as noted; that's not really applicable to our current situation.

Well, that's part of the problem, that reliable sources on women's work tends not to go back that far. I suppose it is possible that women worked less on clothing and more on farm work further in the past. And considering our position in the North, farming is probably more essential, and thus received more effort.

Kelenas said:
You're conflating need with want. Because a lot of trade isn't about needs, it's about wants.
People need food and clothing, yes, but covering those needs is generally not all that difficult just with local resources.
The Silk Road didn't exist because the people of Europe, northern Africa, etc desperately needed silk; cloth made from linen, cotton or wool worked well enough to serve their needs and could easily be acquired locally, for example. Instead the Silk Road existed because silk was nicer than linen or wool and could serve as a status symbol. Same thing with the spice trade; people didn't need cinnamon or pepper or turmeric, but they wanted it because it made their meals nicer and served as a status symbol.
It's pretty much the same thing with textiles; most people didn't have much trouble getting the clothes they needed to keep themselves covered and warm, with even medieval peasants generally owning two sets of clothes (to have a spare while one was being cleaned/repaired). What spurred the trade in textiles is that people wanted things like table covers, curtains, bedding, pillows, additional sets of clothes, etc; partly because it was nice, and partly because it was a means of showing off their wealth and status.

Likewise, people might not need things like steel tools, steel tableware, steel cookware, etc, but they will want them because they're both nice and can serve as a status symbol against those who need to make do with iron tools or wooden tableware.

Besides the value of the wares itself as a potential status symbol, there's of course also the simple monetary factor to consider; if there are two identical products but one of them is cheaper, people will generally buy the cheaper one because it leaves them more money to spend on other things.
So even very common goods can result in an increase of trade if we introduce means of mass-producing something cheaply enough; "buy low, sell high" being one of the absolute basics of merchant trade.

Which brings us back to what I already said; if we introduce something that results in a major change to supply and demand, we'll see an uptick in trade as merchants react accordingly; that's how the market economy works.

Sure, anything that effects a major effect in supply and demand, but clothing and food are a much larger portion of the current economy than anything else, and so I still maintain that improvements there will have a greater impact on trade than any other improvement. Additionally, you make the point that if something like say, clothing, is produced cheaper then people will buy that, and that is the primary source of the trade increase I think will occur from a textile mill.

Kelenas said:
To repeat myself again; it's a question of priorities and applicability. Time we spend on introducing theoretical knowledge is time we don't spend introducing more immediately useful knowledge. That doesn't mean theoretical knowledge isn't valuable, and that we shouldn't try to write it down and introduce it at all, but it does mean that we need to consider whether it's important that we do so right now, instead of focusing on things that would be more immediately beneficial to us and our kingdom.

Similar to the blood-type discussion, let's say we spend time writing a book about the period table. How does the average citizen of our kingdom benefit from it within the next 5-10 years? What could the average blacksmith, or healer, herbalist, brewer, or even alchemist do with this information, considering the extremely technologically limited tools available to them?

To borrow your own metaphor; my issue isn't that you want crenelations on top of the walls we're building. I'd very much want to have them, too. My issue is that you seem to want to build this wall by starting with the crenelations and then build downwards, instead of starting with the foundations and then building upwards.

Practical knowledge is built from theoretical knowledge. We could spend all our time on practical things, but wouldn't kick start independent development without expanding the amount of theoretical knowledge available for others to use to develop their own improvements. We still need to produce practical improvements, such as the textile mill, and the threshing machine you propose. If you want to argue we should do those first before theoretical knowledge then that's a reasonable position.

I just think that we are getting close to where we do need to start introducing some of that theoretical knowledge. Also, I think you are underestimating the benefits of chemistry. Okay, so we create a book with the periodic table and a basic understanding of chemistry - that could lead to the development of explosives, making mining more effective. Or dyes, that make clothing more valuable. Or baking soda to make bread more tasty. Human ingenuity is pretty powerful.

Mathematics is likely to take longer to produce benefits, though perhaps building techniques could improve within 5 to 10 years. That might make buildings cost less.

Medicine is the one that has the longest payoff, in that I expect blood transfusions and the like are decades away, but germ theory could help improve some hygine I'd guess. And maybe there would be some interesting synergies with magic that aren't possible elsewhere. If people had correct knowledge of how the human body worked, maybe magic could create some short cuts in medicine.

Kelenas said:
So, to reiterate and summarize; it would be great if we could include basic scientific method in the school curriculum, but the practical and logistical difficulties of just spreading basic knowledge of math and literacy to as many people as possible makes me doubtful about the possibility of doing so at this point in time.

I think we should include it, and maybe it doesn't sink into most of the schools attendees, but if even 10% of them internalize it I'd count that as a big win.

Kelenas said:
I agree both the fleet and Blood in the Woods are important... but Fortify the Rivers is also fairly important given the upcoming war with the Ironborn, especially since it'll take a while to get done.
Could potentially do it via commands, but that doesn't always work out perfectly.

Well, we already gave an Issue Command on the Fortify Rivers, and succeeded on the diplomacy check, it's the Martial DC we failed. Since we don't need to pass the Diplomacy check again, it makes sense to continue on that via Issue command to resupply them with resources.

Kelenas said:
I vehemently disagree on fertilizer. There simply is no need for something like that at this point; 4-field crop rotation will already help to decrease soil exhaustion issues and reduce the need for fertilizer, and organic fertilizers like manure, nightsoil, etc should also be available already.
No offense meant, but would you happen to be a chemist or something like that? Because your continued push for fertilizer/chemistry is honestly starting to look like a pet project of yours...

Textile mIlls are a major step in industrialization. Chemistry is another major step, and one that is going to take a lot of effort, so I'd like to get started on it. And no I am not a chemist, my background is in economics.

Kelenas said:
- Additional tasks for our existing water- and windmill designs
This would be a fairly low-effort thing to do, where we could easily suggest alternative uses for the grinding-mill design we already have, such as grinding treebark to create powder used in tanning leather, or rotating a grindstone for sharpening blades.

This seems like the kind of thing we might put a reward for other to develop, since it's not really uplifting as much as adapting watermills to do something closely related.

Kelenas said:
- Stamp and Trip-Hammer mills
Both are closely related in their design and fulfill fairly similar functions. They're useful in crushing rock and ore for further processing (like smelting, or mixing cement), pressing fruits and vegetables to extract liquids (mostly for making juice or alcohol, but potentially also useful in things like medicine-making, extracting oil, and a bunch of other stuff), fulling (a disgusting step in cloth-making that I suspect everyone would be happy not to have to do with their feet anymore...), paper-making (this would synergize well with our printing-press, further reducing the cost of books and thus making them more readily available to the general public), and of course metalworking (much easier to have a heavy trip hammer or stamp drop down onto the metal to shape it, rather than have the smith swing the hammer himself).

We already did these, at least for forgework and ore processing. Additional adaptations might be something to put into the list of things that we should motivate others to develop.

Kelenas said:
- Rolling and Slitting mills
These are also two very closely related designs, with slitting basically just being rolls with interlocking grooves. The main use here would be in metal-shaping, allowing for the easy and fast creation of metal plates and nails, with the obvious synergy here being our introduction of copper-sheathed hulls. It could also be used to mass-produce simple iron nails, however - something that at this point should still be quite expensive, making for a nice trade-good, and it should also help to make the creation of various forms of armor; almain rivet probably being the most interesting in that regard since it strikes a good balance between effectiveness and cost.

This seems like a good Uplift action, maybe we can get a more detailed assessment from the QM.

Marlin said:
I want to establish a spy group in Dorne this turn. I think they are the only group we don't have any spies inside of Westeros.

I'd like to, but I think the Dornish are a low priority considering the Ironborn needs to be our focus right now. Plus we got problems with the Fey.

notbirdofprey · Apr 28, 2020

Elder Haman said:
@notbirdofprey And if we provided the Barrow Houses with 1800 gold? Would that put the DC back down to the 45 listed in the action?

On the issue of the Logging commnad, do we need to take the Bloody Logging Problem first? And complete it this turn to get the DC reduction for the Command? Or do we need to complete the Bloody Logging this turn, and then Issue command next turn to get the DC reduction?

If Bloody Logging Problems finishes, it will reduce the DC for the command.

And that would reduce the DC to 45.

@notbirdofprey Is it possible to send aid to the Forresters using an Issue Command? Since the problem seems to be a lack of actions not a lack of military resources.

Can we say, do something like this:

[] Issue Command (House Forrester, Green Men): Deal with the redcaps who are attacking your people. Make examples out of them. Cost: 100 Gold, the services of the Forest Wardens, our Winterfell Guard (under the command of Eddard Stark), and the support of the Green Men.

What would that DC look like? Would it cost us 1 Influence? Do we need to spend additional gold to lower the DC?

The Diplomacy DC would be 35, the Martial DC would be 80. Spending Influence would represent the Wardens, and the Green Men you would need to use the action to send the Guard, and more gold would help.

Personal (2 actions):

[] Uplift Textile Mills: Carding, Drawing, Spinning (the spinning jenny, water frame, and spinning mule), Weaving prep, and the Power Loom. Mainly focused on wool, but with some notes on how it can be modified for cotton or flax. Probably ought to include a design for the cotton gin while at it. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: Varies. Reward: New action unlocked

[] Uplift Basic Chemistry with a focus on Fertilizer: Create a book with what you can remember of the periodic table of elements, basic chemistry, with extra details on fertilizer. Book is to be disguised as a Westrosi adventurer's translation of a manuscript dating to the Kingdom of Sanor he discovered while stranded in Saath. The translated manuscript itself claims to be a translated summary (which we can use as an excuse to gloss over gaps in our knowledge) of a larger work on alchemy dating to the Empire of the Dawn. We got a copy of this book from a merchant (Devan Waters) who claimed that he stopped in Saath and the locals sold him the goods of a Rodrick Snow who had died there 70 years earlier. Devan Waters brought it to us because he had heard we could easily make copies of books, he did not sell us the original, but only allowed us to keep a copy. He claimed to be a merchant from Duskendale, but he looked like Dornishman, and he spoke with a Myrish accent. Details on gunpowder/explosives creation are to be listed as well in our personal copy, but kept seperate from the book we make public. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: Varies. Reward: New action unlocked

Basically, I'm assuming this is a distillation of our knowledge of chemistry which I expect to be focused on fertilizer due to our knowledge of agriculture, but with a lot of little things that are common knowledge (or common for people to look into just because it's cool - like how to make gunpowder). We give it a cover story so that people will look in the wrong places for the source of the knowledge, and also to give it the sheen of ancient knowledge to enhance it's reputation and make people more likely to investigate it.

It's still a long ways to actual fertilizer production and a chemical industry, but it's the first step, and if we end up dying in battle or something, Eddard would still probably be able to figure some things out with the help of Maester Brynden.

@notbirdofprey How are those Uplift actions? Do they have DCs in stages with various levels of knowledge included?

Yes, both those will have DCs in stages.

Elder Haman · Apr 28, 2020

notbirdofprey said:
If Bloody Logging Problems finishes, it will reduce the DC for the command.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this answer.

I just need to know, to get the DC reduction on Expanding Logging around Deepwood Motte, can we do the diplomacy action Bloody Logging Problems simultaneously with Issuing a Command to Expand Logging, or do we need to do it sequentially?

Also, what is the impact of the following Command:

[] Issue Command (Barrow Houses): Construct a Fleet at Barrowtown, 2900 Gold

What would the DCs be on that?

How will that conflict with Fortifying the Rivers?

And could we order the Barrow House to first complete the fleet, and then finish fortifying the rivers, with the promise of sending more gold later to help with Fortifying the Rivers?

And would the +15 bonus to rolls on completing a fleet on the western coast apply to the Issue Command for the Barrow House to complete a fleet? Or would it only apply to us taking the action?

notbirdofprey · Apr 28, 2020

You can do them simultaneously, yes.

That has a Diplomacy DC of 15 and a Martial DC of 45, although they would get the shipyard bonus.

I would say there would be no conflict for both, although doing more commands for them will have higher DCs for a while.

Elder Haman · Apr 28, 2020

notbirdofprey said:
I would say there would be no conflict for both, although doing more commands for them will have higher DCs for a while.

Okay, just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding, that means 2 commands no conflict, but that we will be unable to give the Barrow houses any more commands without raising the DCs until those commands finish?

notbirdofprey · Apr 28, 2020

That's correct.

Marlin · Apr 28, 2020

Elder Haman said:
I'd like to, but I think the Dornish are a low priority considering the Ironborn needs to be our focus right now. Plus we got problems with the Fey.

We only really know about the Fey because we have a rumor mill connection there in the Reach and Riverlands. Dorne is an unknown, and would be nice to complete the set.

Elder Haman · Apr 28, 2020

Okay... in that case, it seems like this is the best organization for a plan:

[X] Plan: Cover All the Bases
-[X] Issue Command (Barrow Houses): Construct a Fleet at Barrowtown, 2900 Gold
-[X] Issue Command (Barrow Houses): Send them more gold to help fortify the rivers, 1800 Gold

Basically the goal here is since we need our Martial action to handle the redcaps, and our free action to solve the logging problems, these are the martial actions we can offload to our vassals. DC for Fortify Rivers with this will be 45, which is a little higher than I'd like, but we don't have to make a diplomacy DC check because we already succeeded at it. Building the fleet is a Diplomacy DC check of 15, so we should make it easy, while the martial DC is 45 - but they get +15 bonus from the shipyard we completed so that means an effective DC of 30.

I'm not giving the command to Expand Logging at Deepwood Motte, because we can wait and give it next turn, and get not only the DC reduction due to completing Bloody Logging Problems, but also get the DC reduction from completing Blood in the Wood (which should complete at the end of next turn).

Martial

-[X] Blood in the Wood: You will not allow your vassals to be terrorized and murdered, not if you can do anything about it. Send in the Guard, send in the Wardens, get them support from the Green Men, and deal with the redcaps who are attacking your people. Make examples out of them, make it absolutely clear that to harm the North is to harm you, and you will not stand for it. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 100 gold, chance of decreased relations with fey. DC: 50. Reward: Lines drawn with fey, vassal approval.

DC is too high if we use an Issue Command to try and do this.

Diplomacy

-[X] Free Action: Bloody Logging Problems: Two of your houses are in dispute with…quite a few vassals, fey, people sworn directly to you, people not really sworn to anyone…it's a mess of competing claims, arguments, near-rebellion, and feuding. Things have steadily escalated, almost to the level where it will start eroding your authority if things keep going. Stomp on it now, before it gets worse. Especially if it spread. Time: 1 season. Cost: 350 gold. DC: 45. Reward: Claims and disputes settled before they boil over more.

Not going to use the Double Down here, since we now know that completing in unison is enough to get the DC reduction benefit we can do this next turn if it fails on this one, so I'm willing to take the dice roll (the probability is pretty good we get it with out a double down).

Stewardship

-[X] More Logging Camps: When logging camps were first set up, nearly a dozen sites were surveyed, but only a few were selected in the end. There simply wasn't enough gold to build all the shelters and purchase all the tools needed. Fortunately, this means that with some more gold more logging camps can be established in very little time. Really, the only preparation required will be building shelters and then the woodsmen can get to cutting trees and sending them back to Wintertown. Time: 1 season. Cost: 250 gold. DC: 25. Reward: One-time income, increase to logging income, increase to trade.

-[X] Sky-Mills: Many of the rivers you would build waterwheels on have drifting chunks of ice that would make construction less practical, and in any case, there are only so many places waterwheels can be built where they would provide enough power to be worthwhile. Windmills, however, require only empty fields to function and clear weather to be built. And they would serve just as well for grinding grain into flour. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 250 gold. DC: 35. Reward: Increase to farming income.

I'd really like to Expand the Schools, but we just don't have the money available this turn. Hopefully next turn we can do it.

Learning

-[X] Copy Books: Create some copies of books for the Citadel. They will pay you a good price for it, but they will also be trying to figure out how you do it, and saying yes risks your monopoly. Saying no will get their attention as well though. Time: 1 season. Cost: 25 gold. DC: 35. Reward: Increased attention from the Citadel, one-time income.

I'd rather do Darning, but this is more time urgent, so we will do this one first.

Piety

-[X] Rites of the Flesh: The First Men and the Children of the Forest learned much from each other once the Pact was sworn, but much has been forgotten. Frost and his brethren will begin to seek the rites of the man, woman, and child and attempt to recreate them. Time: 4 seasons. Cost: 50 gold. DC: 75. Reward: New magic unlocked

Much cheaper than the alternatives, and hopefully if we succeed we will get a DC reduction on Finding the Pattern.

Intrigue

-[X] Double Down: Free Intrigue Action: Find the Leader: The banditry has displeased Snow at least as much as it displeased you. He intends for those responsible to be found and given to the king's justice. Specifically, he wants the leader, who he suspects is connected with the bloody butchery being done in the north of the Wolfswood. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 100 gold. DC: 65. Reward: Bandit leader found.

-[X] Coded Messages: Snow has taken inspiration from the way Princess Argella used coded messages to instruct her agents, and he wants to devise something similar for the Hunters. He isn't quite as brilliant to come up with a way of hiding orders in the weave of a carpet, but he thinks he can manage some way to conceal what he really tells them. Time: 1 season. Cost: None. DC: 50. Reward: Cipher designed, bonus to Hunter actions.

-[X] Security Procedures: Snow might understand the necessity of what he does, but that doesn't mean he always likes it. For example, he understands that it's important to make sure the upper ranks of your civil service keep the acolytes away from anything you would consider sensitive such as the making of concrete, the printing press, and the carding factory. He just finds the process of teaching people really tedious. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 50 gold, Citadel attention. DC: 43. Reward: Acolytes kept away from sensitive information, basic security procedures taught to civil service.

These seem like the most time urgent. Find the Leader so we can end all these nonsense problems in the North, Security Procedures before the civil service leaks something we don't want them too. Coded Messages so that we can get the bonus to Hunter actions in case we need to kill Ironborn spies - and to leave us an Intrigue option next turn. Next most urgent is probably Deeper Secrets in the North, but we got too many urgent Intrigue actions, and not enough actions to do them all in. Plus Deeper Secrets is too expensive this turn.

-[X] Uplift Textile Mills: Carding, Drawing, Spinning (the spinning jenny, water frame, and spinning mule), Weaving prep, and the Power Loom. Mainly focused on wool, but with some notes on how it can be modified for cotton or flax. Probably ought to include a design for the cotton gin while at it. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: Varies. Reward: New action unlocked

-[X] Uplift Basic Chemistry, Fertilizer and Explosives: Create a book with what you can remember of the periodic table of elements, basic chemistry, with extra details on fertilizer. Book is to be disguised as a Westrosi adventurer's translation of a manuscript dating to the Kingdom of Sanor he discovered while stranded in Saath. The translated manuscript itself claims to be a translated summary (which we can use as an excuse to gloss over gaps in our knowledge) of a larger work on alchemy dating to the Empire of the Dawn. We got a copy of this book from a merchant (Devan Waters) who claimed that he stopped in Saath and the locals sold him the goods of a Rodrick Snow who had died there 70 years earlier. Devan Waters brought it to us because he had heard we could easily make copies of books, he did not sell us the original, but only allowed us to keep a copy. He claimed to be a merchant from Duskendale, but he looked like Dornishman, and he spoke with a Myrish accent. Details on gunpowder/explosives creation are to be listed as well in our personal copy, but kept seperate from the book we make public. Time: 1 season. Cost: 0. DC: Varies. Reward: New action unlocked

EDIT: Switched out God's Eyes for Chemistry and Gunpowder.

Total Cost of 5925 Gold, so we can just barely afford it.

Next turn, we can avoid having two expensive Martial/Issue Commands and so we should be able to afford Deeper Secrets, and Expand the Schools without too much trouble. Then the following turn we build the fourth and last fleet.

Marlin said:
We only really know about the Fey because we have a rumor mill connection there in the Reach and Riverlands. Dorne is an unknown, and would be nice to complete the set.

Actually, we know about the Fey because they are murdering loggers in the Wolfswood, and we need to deal that. We first heard about them in the Riverlands and the Reach rumor mills, but they are now active in the North as well.

I'm sorry, I'm interested in Dorne as well, but we aslo need to get spies back into Harrenhall, and in the Iron Isles before the war turns start. Once that is done, then Dorne is next on the list to investigate.

Marlin · Apr 28, 2020

[X] Plan: Cover All the Bases

Elder Haman · Apr 28, 2020

I think I could be persuaded to move the Double Down to the Find the Leader action, as a 65 DC is pretty high. If people prefer that, then I'd drop God's Eyes in favor of an Uplift on the Threshing/winnowing machines.

Kelenas · Apr 28, 2020

Welp, here's a broad outline of my preferred plan. Pretty similar to Haman's overall, but there's some point where I rather vehemently disagree with him, and I doubt I'll be able to change his mind (though it won't stop me from trying).

[x] Plan Mills Boom
-[X] Issue Command (Barrow Houses): Construct a Fleet at Barrowtown, 2900 Gold
-[X] Issue Command (Barrow Houses): Send them more gold to help fortify the rivers, 1800 Gold

Martial (1)
[x] Blood in the Wood: You will not allow your vassals to be terrorized and murdered, not if you can do anything about it. Send in the Guard, send in the Wardens, get them support from the Green Men, and deal with the redcaps who are attacking your people. Make examples out of them, make it absolutely clear that to harm the North is to harm you, and you will not stand for it. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 100 gold, chance of decreased relations with fey. DC: 50. Reward: Lines drawn with fey, vassal approval.

Diplomacy (0+1)
[x] (Free) Bloody Logging Problems: Two of your houses are in dispute with…quite a few vassals, fey, people sworn directly to you, people not really sworn to anyone…it's a mess of competing claims, arguments, near-rebellion, and feuding. Things have steadily escalated, almost to the level where it will start eroding your authority if things keep going. Stomp on it now, before it gets worse. Especially if it spread. Time: 1 season. Cost: 350 gold. DC: 45. Reward: Claims and disputes settled before they boil over more.

Stewardship (2)
[x] More Logging Camps: When logging camps were first set up, nearly a dozen sites were surveyed, but only a few were selected in the end. There simply wasn't enough gold to build all the shelters and purchase all the tools needed. Fortunately, this means that with some more gold more logging camps can be established in very little time. Really, the only preparation required will be building shelters and then the woodsmen can get to cutting trees and sending them back to Wintertown. Time: 1 season. Cost: 250 gold. DC: 25. Reward: One-time income, increase to logging income, increase to trade.
[x] Sky-Mills: Many of the rivers you would build waterwheels on have drifting chunks of ice that would make construction less practical, and in any case, there are only so many places waterwheels can be built where they would provide enough power to be worthwhile. Windmills, however, require only empty fields to function and clear weather to be built. And they would serve just as well for grinding grain into flour. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 250 gold. DC: 35. Reward: Increase to farming income.

Learning (1)
[x] Copy Books: Create some copies of books for the Citadel. They will pay you a good price for it, but they will also be trying to figure out how you do it, and saying yes risks your monopoly. Saying no will get their attention as well though. Time: 1 season. Cost: 25 gold. DC: 35. Reward: Increased attention from the Citadel, one-time income.

Piety (1)
[x] Ritual Crafting: While the Sacred Arrows created by the rite do not last forever, several other rites do create objects or blessings that last for a long time. While some can be done by some of the more skilled among your Green Men, others are beyond the power of all but Frost, most notably the making of protective talismans. He will devote his time to doing so if you ask and have some of his brethren do the same. Thresholds will be blessed, beast-bane spears given to those in the Wolfswood, and a few sacred arrows will be made as an assurance. Time: 1 season. Cost: 400 gold. DC: 30. Reward: Varying number of rites performed

Intrigue (2+1)
[x] Coded Messages: Snow has taken inspiration from the way Princess Argella used coded messages to instruct her agents, and he wants to devise something similar for the Hunters. He isn't quite as brilliant to come up with a way of hiding orders in the weave of a carpet, but he thinks he can manage some way to conceal what he really tells them. Time: 1 season. Cost: None. DC: 50. Reward: Cipher designed, bonus to Hunter actions.
[x] Security Procedures: Snow might understand the necessity of what he does, but that doesn't mean he always likes it. For example, he understands that it's important to make sure the upper ranks of your civil service keep the acolytes away from anything you would consider sensitive such as the making of concrete, the printing press, and the carding factory. He just finds the process of teaching people really tedious. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 50 gold, Citadel attention. DC: 43. Reward: Acolytes kept away from sensitive information, basic security procedures taught to civil service.
[x] (Free) Find the Leader: The banditry has displeased Snow at least as much as it displeased you. He intends for those responsible to be found and given to the king's justice. Specifically, he wants the leader, who he suspects is connected with the bloody butchery being done in the north of the Wolfswood. Time: 2 seasons. Cost: 100 gold. DC: 65. Reward: Bandit leader found.
-[x] Double Down

Personal (2)
[x] Uplift Rolling and Slitting mills.
[x] Uplift Blackpowder.

Elder Haman said:
Everything from carding machines, spinning, and up to power looms. We have that knowledge, we payed during character creation to have it, so lets use it.

Sure; we can spend the same amount of actions it'd take to design those textile manufacturing machines to design threshing and winnowing machines along with mechanical reapers.
The benefits in freed-up labor force of mechanizing not just one of those tasks but all three - being by far the most labor-intensive aspects of agriculture - would easily outweigh the benefits of mechanizing cloth manufacturing.

Elder Haman said:
Sure, anything that effects a major effect in supply and demand, but clothing and food are a much larger portion of the current economy than anything else, and so I still maintain that improvements there will have a greater impact on trade than any other improvement. Additionally, you make the point that if something like say, clothing, is produced cheaper then people will buy that, and that is the primary source of the trade increase I think will occur from a textile mill.

Our economy and trade will benefit regardless of which specific manufacturing innovation we introduce, yes; that was my point. Which is why trade should be a minor afterthought at best when considering what innovations to spend our time and attention on. Far more important considerations should be questions like how something helps our kingdom directly, what an innovation can do for us, and how it can synergize with either our goals, or inventions we've already introduced.

Elder Haman said:
I just think that we are getting close to where we do need to start introducing some of that theoretical knowledge. Also, I think you are underestimating the benefits of chemistry. Okay, so we create a book with the periodic table and a basic understanding of chemistry - that could lead to the development of explosives, making mining more effective. Or dyes, that make clothing more valuable. Or baking soda to make bread more tasty. Human ingenuity is pretty powerful.

Mathematics is likely to take longer to produce benefits, though perhaps building techniques could improve within 5 to 10 years. That might make buildings cost less.

Medicine is the one that has the longest payoff, in that I expect blood transfusions and the like are decades away, but germ theory could help improve some hygine I'd guess. And maybe there would be some interesting synergies with magic that aren't possible elsewhere. If people had correct knowledge of how the human body worked, maybe magic could create some short cuts in medicine.

The problem is that a lot of theoretical knowledge is effectively useless at this point in time, simply because the tools to exploit it don't exist.
It honestly seems to be a consistent issue with your ideas, in that you don't consider whether the means and conditions to actually put them into practice are actually available; you simply assume that they will immediately prove beneficial in the way you want.

For example, you talk about introducing Germ theory in an effort to improve hygiene. Except that knowledge of Germ theory doesn't do anything about the fact that bathing is a major logistical challenge at this point in time that can often require the better part of a day to prepare. If someone was lucky and lived near a river or stream they you could simply go there for a wash - except that bathing in the current climate could very easily be far worse for a person's health than not bathing, and that depending on where exactly the person lived others might be using that stream or river to get their drinking water, or dump their excrements or garbage into it. If a person didn't live near a river, bathing meant potentially hours spent drawing water from the closest well and walking back and forth between it and the bathtub until the latter was sufficiently full. If the person wanted a warm bath, it'd require even more work since that water would have to be heated up, often times one pot at a time.
Soap also wasn't readily available. It certainly existed - in fact, soap is one of humanities oldest inventions, being thousands of years old - but it wasn't exactly cheap given the amount of work that went into it, so most people simply couldn't afford it, or at least couldn't afford it readily.
If you want to actually improve hygiene, then the best way to do so isn't to introduce Germ theory, it's to introduce means of mass-producing soap, building sewer networks that can safely dispose of sewage, and inventing pumps and plumbing that will allow people to easily access water even within their own homes. And the pumps in turn require advanced metalworking, if they're meant to be cheap enough that the average city or townsfolk is supposed to be able to afford them for their homes. Once those conditions are met, people will start bathing and washing more often naturally, because the average medieval person didn't particularly enjoy feeling sweaty or greasy or dirty any more than the average modern person does.

It's the same with your insistence on chemistry; you simply assume that after we write our chemistry book, inventions like gunpowder, fertilizer, baking soda, and the like will just start to appear, while apparently giving no thought whatsoever as to whether people actually have the necessary means of doing so at this point.
Even rudimentary thermometers, for example, probably won't exist for another five or six centuries - and certainly won't be cheap then - so any process that requires precise temperatures would be at a severe disadvantage.
Any process that involves gas - particularly mixing several gases with each other - could easily be outright impossible; airtight containers are difficult to make, and the only pump mechanisms available would be bellows and archimedes screws. This also means anything that requires high pressure is outright impossible.
The lack of artificial cooling also means that any process that involves particularly low temperatures is infeasible.
And that's just a small sample of the issues I could find with some small amount of research; if I spent more time, I could undoubtedly find more.
Similar to hygiene, the best way to encourage developments in chemistry would be to introduce practical innovations that provide people the necessary tools. Introducing means of mass-producing various high-quality glasswares to allow for higher-quality tools like alembics, retorts, and the like, alongside new tools such as thermometers, syringes, and the like. Introducing various advancements in metalworking and related technologies, along with innovations in pumping, valve, and sealants, in order to allow for the creation of pressure containers.

That's ultimately the issue with your insistence on introducing books on theoretical knowledge or subjects; people are simply lacking the tools to make use of them. And by the time they could put that knowledge to practical use, it's quite possible that the book we wrote might already have been destroyed somehow, effectively rendering our efforts pointless and the action wasted.
That's why it's ultimately better to focus more on practical applications and institutions first, with theoretical knowledge books being of a lower priority.

Elder Haman said:
Textile mIlls are a major step in industrialization. Chemistry is another major step, and one that is going to take a lot of effort, so I'd like to get started on it. And no I am not a chemist, my background is in economics.

If you're actually serious about introducing an industrial revolution, the area(s) you'll want to focus on is metalworking and mining. Things like rolling mills, drop forges, dies and presses, blast furnaces, bloomeries, bessemer converters, blackpowder, mine carts, ore crushers, and so on, and so forth. Steam engines require metal. The pumps that supply the engines with water require metal. The pipes and tanks and distillation towers and pressure chambers and pumps that you need for your chemical industry require metal. The tools and machinery used to make the steam engines and pumps and pipes and whatnot require metal. Metal parts are used in the smelters processing ore into metal. The trains that move all that ore and fuel and metal and finished goods around require metal. And so on, and so forth.
In short, pretty much all advanced industrial machinery requires ubiquitous amounts of metal. Unless that condition is met, and metal is available in high quantities, at a high quality, and an affordable price, there there won't be an industrial revolution, no matter how much chemistry or textile mills you introduce.

Elder Haman said:
This seems like the kind of thing we might put a reward for other to develop, since it's not really uplifting as much as adapting watermills to do something closely related.

This reminds me; @notbirdofprey, how could we do something like what I suggested here:

Kelenas said:
Another, relatively simple but also somewhat limited and specific approach would be to offer rewards and recognition for certain innovative achievements, which we can then distribute as we wish. For example, offering a substantial reward (money, minor title, etc) for the first individual or group who can develop a method to produce glass suitable for the construction of greenhouses. Over time, we could then potentially develop this into somewhat of a regular thing where we hand out rewards and recognition for innovative achievements in various fields every X years or so - think something like the Nobel Prize.

?
Ie, offering rewards for people who manage to develop certain inventions for us, like figuring out how to apply the principle of a water mill to cutting logs into planks - effectively creating a sawmill of some sort. Or just offering a reward for those who figure out new, practical uses for water mills in general?
Would that sort of thing be an "Issue Command" action, or something else?

notbirdofprey · Apr 28, 2020

I will make that a Diplomacy action next turn, or possibly a Learning one. Remind me if I forget.

Cgce · Apr 28, 2020

One question:do you understand that with the introduction of blackpowder we risk the following:
1 A social revolution in several years bc a peasant can kill a knight without to much trouble bc of fire arms?
2An increase in blodsheet and the cost of war bc the training and replacament of soldiers became a lot easier?
3An increase in espionage action to get the new weapons or even a coalition war agaisnt us once they understand the danger of the new weapon?

Elder Haman · Apr 28, 2020

Kelenas said:
[x] Uplift Blackpowder.

Well, now... this is interesting. You've never expressed gunpowder as a major priority before. And it would seem to me that we ought to combine it with Chemistry and fertilizer, considering that nitre is a fertilizer and also a major component of gunpowder. In fact, gunpowder was listed in my basic chemistry uplift action that I proposed. I didn't want to push for it this turn since it was a major object of contention, but since you want gunpowder I have now edited my plan to include an uplift in basic chemistry - including gunpowder.

It does leave me wondering why you are pushing for gunpowder all by itself, and not for the threshing machine you have been promoting as the better choice.

The only reason that I can see is to try and cut out a "shiny" as separate from an uplift action to improve chemistry, and therefor sabotage any future proposal by myself to uplift chemistry.

I'd like it very much if you could express another reason as to why you think it better to uplift gunpowder on it's own instead of in combination with chemistry considering the significant synergies between the two and the fact that doing it separately is going to cost us actions. I would prefer not to believe that you are attempting to subtly sabotage my position instead of confronting it in an open debate.

Kelenas said:
Sure; we can spend the same amount of actions it'd take to design those textile manufacturing machines to design threshing and winnowing machines along with mechanical reapers.
The benefits in freed-up labor force of mechanizing not just one of those tasks but all three - being by far the most labor-intensive aspects of agriculture - would easily outweigh the benefits of mechanizing cloth manufacturing.

Then why are you not proposing an Uplift action to develop these threshing machines?

I would like to note that I have recognized the worth of the threshing machine uplift you proposed and even listed in my top three (though I still think textile mills are number one), and suggested that maybe we could do it together this turn with the textile mills.

Instead you decided to propose a plan that doesn't include this threshing machine, but instead a selection of other uplift proposals that seem targeted at sabotaging the uplift of chemistry in general. Curious, considering your insistence elsewhere that a threshing machine was the way to go.

Kelenas said:
It's the same with your insistence on chemistry; you simply assume that after we write our chemistry book, inventions like gunpowder, fertilizer, baking soda, and the like will just start to appear, while apparently giving no thought whatsoever as to whether people actually have the necessary means of doing so at this point.

I have made no such assumption, only that chemistry is the necessary forerunner for the development of these other goods. All of them are chemical processes, so how will we develop them with out improving chemistry as a whole?

Indeed, in my chemistry uplift plan I specifically mention keeping gunpowder and explosives recipes private and not public, which thus assumes that we would have to take our own Learning/Stewardship actions to implement the uplift (as we have after every other Uplift action). However, I do believe that by uplifting chemistry at the same time, we will allow outsiders to take their own actions that will eventually result in additional benefits to us beyond just those of developing gunpowder or a specific chemical on our own. What exactly is the loss of using such an aproach?

Also, I am beginning to realize that your arguments against uplifting chemistry keep on changing. First it's because other things are a priority, then that it's all theoretical knowledge, and we should focus on practical things, then that we ought to develop colleges instead, and that we should let Westrosi develop their own technology without us providing modern knowledge, and then it's back to arguing that theoretical knowledge is not useful, and now it's suddenly let's get gunpowder and not bother with fertilizer - despite gunpowder requiring the development of several portions of fertilizer chemistry.

I have repeatedly tried to find common ground, and pointed out that I don't disagree with the things you want to do, and suggest that this is only a disagreement about the order in which we do things - an olive branch that you have repeatedly ignored. So I must ask, at what point do you think we should Uplift chemistry and begin developing modern fertilizer?

Cgce · Apr 28, 2020

PLAN AGRICULTURE REVOLUTION
-[X]Issue command:House Manderlays,improve the roads between White Harbour and Winterfell to basic roads,500 golds
-[X] Issue Command (Barrow Houses): Send them more gold to help fortify the rivers, 800 Gold
MILITARY
[X]Build a fleet at Barrowtown
DIPLOMACY(free action)
[X]Bloddy loggins problems
STEWARDSHIPS
[X]New farm tools
[X]Other artisans
LEARNING
[X]Copy books
PIETY
[X]The gift of might
INTRIGUE
[X]Find the leader(DD)
[X]Friends among the fey
FREE ACTION:[X]Coded Messages
PERSONAL
[X]Uplift- Stamp and Trip-Hammer mills
Both are closely related in their design and fulfill fairly similar functions. They're useful in crushing rock and ore for further processing (like smelting, or mixing cement), pressing fruits and vegetables to extract liquids (mostly for making juice or alcohol, but potentially also useful in things like medicine-making, extracting oil, and a bunch of other stuff), fulling (a disgusting step in cloth-making that I suspect everyone would be happy not to have to do with their feet anymore...), paper-making (this would synergize well with our printing-press, further reducing the cost of books and thus making them more readily available to the general public), and of course metalworking (much easier to have a heavy trip hammer or stamp drop down onto the metal to shape it, rather than have the smith swing the hammer himself).
[X]Uplift-Horse powered threshing machine

The Game of Crusading Thrones, Self-Insert Edition (GoT CK2)

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