[X] Hunker down behind the walls of Greenvalley and wait for Willow to return with the hunters.

Willow should relatively quickly find out about the army approaching, I think, it's noted to be very big, and includes the people he's raiding so information should get back to him relatively easily (really he should have known about this before us for that reason, as he's raiding some people who sent their army to us, or at least their allies, so they should've heard something about them mobilizing their troops to invade, and are possibly heading back now, this isn't the sort of thing which can be very effectively hidden, not when there are people in the enemy's land to report back, so at the very least, if Azel is rolling for it, that Willow gets a pretty good bonus to figuring out an army is incoming)

I like the Ancestors demand penance as well, but this one has a chance of winning
 
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[X] Hunker down behind the walls of Greenvalley and wait for Willow to return with the hunters.

Willow should relatively quickly find out about the army approaching, I think, it's noted to be very big, and includes the people he's raiding so information should get back to him relatively easily (really he should have known about this before us for that reason, as he's raiding some people who sent their army to us, or at least their allies, so they should've heard something about them mobilizing their troops to invade, and are possibly heading back now, this isn't the sort of thing which can be very effectively hidden, not when there are people in the enemy's land to report back, so at the very least, if Azel is rolling for it, that Willow gets a pretty good bonus to figuring out an army is incoming)
It won't, hes in the eastern mountain trying to find nomads and find their settlements, but since their nomads.... They don't have shit.
 
It won't, hes in the eastern mountain trying to find nomads and find their settlements, but since their nomads.... They don't have shit.
Yeah, but if he encounters any of the nomads, and noticed the lack of warriors (I think the nomads are part of the coalition, right?) And/or interrogated the nomads for their warriors positions (hooray torture) I'm sure that one would say something like "they're already burning down your precious White Halls, and you'll never get back in time to stop them" just to taunt him
 
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Yeah, but if he encounters any of the nomads, and noticed the lack of warriors (I think the nomads are part of the coalition, right?) And/or interrogated the nomads for their warriors positions (hooray torture) I'm sure that one would say something like "they're already burning down your precious White Halls, and you'll never get back in time to stop them" just to taunt him
Even if that did happen, the army is a month or two away, we don't have time to wait.
 
Even if that did happen, the army is a month or two away, we don't have time to wait.
Dunno how many days march a big army would be from us, it's gonna be much slower than any of their or our raiding groups, so they could be about 2 weeks march away if we don't interfere, if the mountains are a month away, in which case we could hold for a week I think.

Also, Willow should be marching back now, the coalition would have taken time to assemble, time enough for Willow to at least start the march back. I also assume this would happen because I'm expecting the worst with diplomacy, and the worst case would be the army coming back right after we say they are traitors, maybe even with the coalition army in the background. It would cause either a coup or a civil war, which would be bad with these hungry polities circling us, waiting for us to be weak, like they are doing here
 
Dunno how many days march a big army would be from us, it's gonna be much slower than any of their or our raiding groups, so they could be about 2 weeks march away if we don't interfere, if the mountains are a month away, in which case we could hold for a week I think.

Also, Willow should be marching back now, the coalition would have taken time to assemble, time enough for Willow to at least start the march back. I also assume this would happen because I'm expecting the worst with diplomacy, and the worst case would be the army coming back right after we say they are traitors, maybe even with the coalition army in the background. It would cause either a coup or a civil war, which would be bad with these hungry polities circling us, waiting for us to be weak, like they are doing here
You're making a lot of assumptions here
 
Well I've just gotten caught up to the thread and, uh, wow... I expected there to be some political backlash from ignoring two of our factions, but I'm not sure we could have avoided it, since diplomacy, war, and isolation are pretty much inherently incompatible, so no matter what we'd piss off two of the factions. I suppose we could've tried to trade and raid at the same time, but as Azel noted, it would definitely be shooting ourselves in the foot diplomatically to also be raiding people at the same time so that likely would've backfired. I also thought we'd be pretty much sticking only to the South based off the discussion, but I do have to admit that the actual text of the vote says to go East looking for settlements, so it makes since that a strongman desperate to prove himself might go glory-seeking.

Anyways, the only thing we can do now is make the best of it. I plan on voting at some point, but I'm gonna have to think over how we can do this without screwing ourselves over... It doesn't seem too unlikely that the "Great" Deer would rather attack us than go into exile, and his hunters have made their allegiance pretty clear. I also don't think he'll be getting here anytime soon, he said he was going East of even the Goat People to attack the Oxen People, so it's probably going to be a while before he hears of this even if we send messengers, and he'll be traveling a long distance through hostile territory. This one's gonna take some thinking.
 
The biggest problem overall, outside this little shit situation is that we can't actually utilize the biggest part of the Mandate, the ability to control land over vast distances despite the lack of good transportation. If we can start forging villages and settlements all around we would swiftly dominate the local area, but food is bottlenecking us from becoming a powerhouse >.<. We need to figure out pottery so we can transport food.
 
[X] Scapegoating the "Great" Deer

@Mortenkam It may be worthwhile to add a section about sending a runner to the White Clans to ask them to be on standby and have someone ready to signal them if negotiations go sideways. We'll need all the help we can get if it comes down to a fight.
 
@Mortenkam It may be worthwhile to add a section about sending a runner to the White Clans to ask them to be on standby and have someone ready to signal them if negotiations go sideways. We'll need all the help we can get if it comes down to a fight.
You may be right about that, so I will add that as part of the fallback plan, since I doubt that the invaders will notice a runner going in the opposite direction.
-[X] As a fallback they will prepare to defend Greenvalley and White Halls, while also sending a runner to the White Clans to see if reinforcements can be found.
 
You may be right about that, so I will add that as part of the fallback plan, since I doubt that the invaders will notice a runner going in the opposite direction.

[X] Scapegoating the "Great" Deer

Can you make it explicit that it's 12x mob pops and 2 x hunters, inside of GV's walls and outside of the White Halls that we're deploying
Also add something about it explicitly not being the hunters' fault, just "Great" Deer's.
 
Can you make it explicit that it's 12x mob pops and 2 x hunters, inside of GV's walls and outside of the White Halls that we're deploying
Also add something about it explicitly not being the hunters' fault, just "Great" Deer's.
Yeah, I can add a mention about the hunters not being at fault or at least those staying behind.
-[X] Tell our people, that this invasion is a clear sign of the folly of disobeying the will and wisdom of the Ancestors. The "Great" Deer has not only provoked this attack, he has also lead many of our strongest warriors astray from their primary purpose of defending The Valley People and the graves of the Ancestors, leaving only the warriors that did not chose to reject the Ancestors wisdom. We could of course still beat them back through the strength of our people and defend White Halls, but it would take a high cost in life.
[X] Utilizing prior achievements
-[X] Withdraw behind your walls
-[X] If the enemy tries to siege, fine. We'll crush them between the walls and the hopefully returning Deer eventually
-[X] IF the enemy bypasses our main village and its walls and moves towards White Halls attack them in full force
--[X] Attempt to convince people that the enemy is here to end them, to destroy their temple, burn their orchards and undo all the great achievement since the time of Bear and Wolf.
When it comes to the fallback plan, then I previously noted that I might like to use @Artemis1992's plan as a backup, though I kind of like the idea of having another vote, if my plan fails, mostly so we can responded to any potential counteroffers we might receive. So @Azel what are your thought about what would happen if we received a counteroffer?
 
Well I've just gotten caught up to the thread and, uh, wow... I expected there to be some political backlash from ignoring two of our factions, but I'm not sure we could have avoided it, since diplomacy, war, and isolation are pretty much inherently incompatible, so no matter what we'd piss off two of the factions. I suppose we could've tried to trade and raid at the same time, but as Azel noted, it would definitely be shooting ourselves in the foot diplomatically to also be raiding people at the same time so that likely would've backfired. I also thought we'd be pretty much sticking only to the South based off the discussion, but I do have to admit that the actual text of the vote says to go East looking for settlements, so it makes since that a strongman desperate to prove himself might go glory-seeking.

Anyways, the only thing we can do now is make the best of it. I plan on voting at some point, but I'm gonna have to think over how we can do this without screwing ourselves over... It doesn't seem too unlikely that the "Great" Deer would rather attack us than go into exile, and his hunters have made their allegiance pretty clear. I also don't think he'll be getting here anytime soon, he said he was going East of even the Goat People to attack the Oxen People, so it's probably going to be a while before he hears of this even if we send messengers, and he'll be traveling a long distance through hostile territory. This one's gonna take some thinking.
Yea its very obvious that this situation was building over the course of many many turns. Its why I wasnt really phased when it happened. I think we should either stack more identities to ensure more cohesion in the future or use culture to influence factions so this doesnt happen again. If there was no desire or want for pacifism we wouldnt be in this situation. We could have just diplomacized with the clans and beat the crap out of everyone else.
 
When it comes to the fallback plan, then I previously noted that I might like to use @Artemis1992's plan as a backup, though I kind of like the idea of having another vote, if my plan fails, mostly so we can responded to any potential counteroffers we might receive. So @Azel what are your thought about what would happen if we received a counteroffer?
Depends on how lopsided the rolls are. If they demand something out of what your vote specifies as acceptable, it would be another vote.
 
Well looks at how diplo plan has progressed.

[X] Scapegoating the "Great" Deer

As long as they don't do what every other diplo has gone so far in them 'altering the agreement' mid fulfillment. And good dice roles.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by Azel on Apr 10, 2020 at 3:05 AM, finished with 232 posts and 26 votes.

  • [X] Scapegoating the "Great" Deer
    [X] Utilizing prior achievements
    -[X] Withdraw behind your walls
    -[X] If the enemy tries to siege, fine. We'll crush them between the walls and the hopefully returning Deer eventually
    -[X] IF the enemy bypasses our main village and its walls and moves towards White Halls attack them in full force
    --[X] Attempt to convince people that the enemy is here to end them, to destroy their temple, burn their orchards and undo all the great achievement since the time of Bear and Wolf.
    [X] Hunker down behind the walls of Greenvalley and wait for Willow to return with the hunters.
    [X] Hunker down behind the walls of Greenvalley and wait for Willow to return with the hunters.
    -[X] Send envoys to any and all White Clans asking for help in defending the White Halls and Greenvalley, in return for us swearing blood debts to later be repaid to all those who aided us in our hour of need.
    [X] The Ancestors demand penance, for the days of blood have come again.
    -[X] Stage 1: there is hope in dispair
    --[X] Send word to the clansmen that the valley is under siege By a substantial force, take any volunteers that will come to the defence.
    --[X] evacuate our population and any food they can carry behind the walls of greenvalley, the elderly will go to the white halls.
    -[X] Stage 2: proving our worth
    --[X] Have our hunters hold the crossing directly, have our mob held in reserve off in the distance camped in the trees incase the enemy get around somewhere and try to take our hunters from behind.
    --[X] chop down some trees for logs, if the enemy is coming up river, toss them from the crossing into the river to clog them up and charge them while they are disorganized. If they come from land or use the crossing, use them as cover for the hunters against arrow fire.
    -[X] Stage 3: Only the worthy die standing
    --[X] if the crossing is lost, those best able and willing to fight retreat to the white halls, those who are not willing to die in the arms of their ancestors will hold up in greenvalley.
    [X] Try to negotiate with the oncoming army.
    -[X]Tell them that the warriors went mad with lust for glory, and foolishly tried to raid the Goat People.
    --[X]Offer to give them whatever was gained by our raids back, and obsidian/azerite as compensation for these that died.
    ---[X]If deemed necessary, make a blood pact that they won't attack brushcrest or the goat nomads as long as they lived.
    [X] Try to negotiate with the oncoming army. (Might cause conflict with Cultural Ideas)
    -[X] claim that the hunters are no longer a part of us but rebels that went against the leaders.
    -[X] welcome the army as guests and offer gifts worth one production and obsidian (they probaly see this as the bribe it is)
    -[X] offer blood oaths not to attack for a generation
    -[X] invite a small delegation to see the city walls(fill them with all hunters and mobs when they do)
    -[X] if that fails offer in the order listed:
    --[X] increase the offer to include the the Azurite, second production as well
    --[X] offer these goods for several turns.
    --[X] blood oaths not to raid for several turns.
    [X] Scapegoating the "Great" Deer
    -[X] Tell our people, that this invasion is a clear sign of the folly of disobeying the will and wisdom of the Ancestors. The "Great" Deer has not only provoked this attack, he has also lead many of our strongest warriors astray from their primary purpose of defending The Valley People and the graves of the Ancestors, leaving only the warriors that did not chose to reject the Ancestors wisdom. We could of course still beat them back through the strength of our people and defend White Halls, but it would take a high cost in life.
    -[X] Therefore the Council of Three will seek terms with the invaders, because of the "Great" Deer's disobedience.
    -[X] The Council (or rather their messenger) will seek out the invaders seeking to parlay and negotiation.
    --[X] At the start of negotiation, the Council will explain that they never approved of the raids, but that they will be willing to offer compensation for not stopping them in time.
    ---[X] On the truth of this they will swear Blood Oaths.
    --[X] They will of course start of by giving back any prisoner captured.
    --[X] As compensation they will start with offering them the following:
    ---[X] 1 unit of Obsidian
    ---[X] 1 Production
    --[X] But they are willing to go as far as the following:
    ---[X] 1 unit of Azurite OR another 1 Production
    --[X] If the invaders want more, then the Council will as a last resort be willing to offer send more next year.
    --[X] The Council will promise to not approve of any raids against the Invaders or their current allies for the rest of their live.
    ---[X] On this they will swear Blood Oaths.
    --[X] As for the "Great" Deer, the Council will proclaim that he is no longer welcome amongst The Valley People and he therefore is to become a exile.
    --[X] The punishment for the Great Deer to enter the walls of Greenvalley will be dead.
    ---[X] On this the Council will swear a Blood Oath.
    ---[X] They will also get the remaining hunters to swear Blood Oaths on enforcing this exile with their life.
    -[X] As a fallback they will prepare to defend Greenvalley and White Halls, while also sending a runner to the White Clans to see if reinforcements can be found.
 
Division and Conquest 2
[X] Scapegoating the "Great" Deer
-[X] Tell our people, that this invasion is a clear sign of the folly of disobeying the will and wisdom of the Ancestors. The "Great" Deer has not only provoked this attack, he has also lead many of our strongest warriors astray from their primary purpose of defending The Valley People and the graves of the Ancestors, leaving only the warriors that did not chose to reject the Ancestors wisdom. We could of course still beat them back through the strength of our people and defend White Halls, but it would take a high cost in life.
-[X] Therefore the Council of Three will seek terms with the invaders, because of the "Great" Deer's disobedience.
-[X] The Council (or rather their messenger) will seek out the invaders seeking to parlay and negotiation.
--[X] At the start of negotiation, the Council will explain that they never approved of the raids, but that they will be willing to offer compensation for not stopping them in time.
---[X] On the truth of this they will swear Blood Oaths.
--[X] They will of course start of by giving back any prisoner captured.
--[X] As compensation they will start with offering them the following:
---[X] 1 unit of Obsidian
---[X] 1 Production
--[X] But they are willing to go as far as the following:
---[X] 1 unit of Azurite OR another 1 Production
--[X] If the invaders want more, then the Council will as a last resort be willing to offer send more next year.
--[X] The Council will promise to not approve of any raids against the Invaders or their current allies for the rest of their live.
---[X] On this they will swear Blood Oaths.
--[X] As for the "Great" Deer, the Council will proclaim that he is no longer welcome amongst The Valley People and he therefore is to become a exile.
--[X] The punishment for the Great Deer to enter the walls of Greenvalley will be dead.
---[X] On this the Council will swear a Blood Oath.
---[X] They will also get the remaining hunters to swear Blood Oaths on enforcing this exile with their life.
-[X] As a fallback they will prepare to defend Greenvalley and White Halls, while also sending a runner to the White Clans to see if reinforcements can be found.

With the lowlanders bearing down on Greenvalley and only a day away at most, there was not much time left for the Valley People to decide on a response. Tall Reed and fingers convened in the Councils chambers, this time without their vices, the mediums and all the other attendants who added mostly chatter and cajoling in the past seasons. After many seasons of strife, the talk was far from able to overcome the enmity that had festered between them, but without other voices to egg them on, they at least managed to agree on a few things. The first was that this whole mess was the fault of Willow and his defiance, and they could easily agree to say as much to anyone who would listen.

The second thing was that they needed to negotiate, for they had no illusion that the few hunters left in the village would be able to throw back the attackers. The Valley People could have hid behind the walls of Greenvalley, but there were far too many homes, outside of them and the orchard beside, so they would just trade the quick death of war against the slow death of famine. What they could not agree on was where to go from there and the talk nearly fell back into old patterns when they skirted the topic of the future. Though that was a fight not worth having at this moment, so they decided to postpone it until the threat of the lowlanders was gone. Meanwhile, their followers had been tasked to keep peace and order in the village, and to stop anyone from doing something rash, but where their leaders succeeded, they failed utterly. The hunters had taken charge of the situation, using their authority as the defenders of the Valley People to rally them into hastily armed mobs to repel the invaders.

Checks against Stability caused by deadlocked government.

Council cohesion:
6 + 6u1 -> 6
Council in shaky agreement about course of action.

Hunters standing down:
6 + 6u1 -> 1
No. Hunters stronk. Will kill all the invaders.

Luckily, they didn't get far with their plans. Most of the more experienced and esteemed hunters had left with Willow, leaving mostly the young, the very old and those who could not travel far from home due to other obligations. As a result, nobody could agree on who was in charge and the mobs were soon walking back and forth between the White Halls, Greenvalley and making abortive attempts to meet the invaders at the river. The Council was horrified when it learned of this mess, but they took solace that the hunters attempts had not gone anywhere dangerous and that they at least commanded too much attention for others to do anything dumb in the absence of proper orders.

It was not the Council who calmed them down though, but the Bone Tenders. Since time immemorial they tried to be impartial and shied away from taking sides in conflicts, but when the confusion threatened to give way to violence among the hunters and the hastily drafted people, they intervened. All over the valley, Bone Tenders stepped before the crowds and began retelling the tales of old strife, of the Days of Blood, of the death of the Mountain Father and how it angered the ancestors to see their descendants contemplate murder among themselves. It was not perfect and there broke out a few scuffles between those hunters who listened and those who refused to, but in the end, things calmed down over the course of the night. A few troublemakers did not witness the next sunrise, but the Valley People at large were staying where they were and waiting for the Councils orders as they were meant to.

Hunters organizing a response:
1d10 -> 1
Complete bedlam. Hunters unable to muster a response.

Calming the Hunters down:
6 + 6u1 -> 7
Minor scuffles, but Hunters stand down.

During the night. the runners of the Valley People had met the invading host and while the attackers refused to stop their advance entirely, they agreed to march no further then the minor village of Rivercrossing. There they would wait for the Council to speak their piece. It was not perfect, but the village had already been evacuated by the hunters when the news about the invading host came, so the Council felt giving up empty houses was worth it to negotiate. For Fingers, who was old enough to have great-grandchildren running through the village, the way was hard and she had to be carried most of the way, but by noon, the meeting had begun.

As the scouts had reported, the force was not coming from one particular village, but the lowlanders had apparently banded together to a great degree. Nearly every village from what they called the riverlands was sending some of their hunters to punish those who had preyed on the traders and the Goat People. It was not Brushcrest who as leading the talks though, and neither the People of Makar, for the former had no one who could speak properly the tongue of the mountains and the latter seemed to no longer exist. Instead, the speaker of the lowlanders was a young man who spoke the mountain tongue with a curious accent and who hailed from a village he called Sparrow's Rest. His shield also carried a red bird, framed by two blue rivers, causing whispers among the Councils attendants about what this might mean, but this was not the time to indulge in such curiosity.

The negotiations themselves went surprisingly well for the Council, given that they were talking to people who had marched for days or weeks to raze the valley to the ground. There was much doubt about the tale of Willow's actions and his defiance of the Councils will, but when Tall Reed and Fingers swore blood oaths to the truth of their story and the exiling of Willow without prompting, much of the doubt was alleviated. The offer of further oaths to foster peace and the release of the prisoners taken was likewise well received, though some of the lowlanders were dubious of the worth of oaths sworn on the lifetime of someone as venerable as Fingers.

It was the gift of obsidian, raw, as trinkets, as tools and most importantly as weapons that the Council had brought with them which won the last lowlanders over. They would not have to return empty handed to their homes after all and became much easier to believe the Council that it wanted no war when they were willing to offer blades as gifts. Other, minor things were offered too, such as the lowlanders getting the right to make camp nearby for two days before starting the long march home and the right to hunt for provisions south of the river in this time, but the fact they were asking for these things instead of demanding them was a sure sign that an agreement had been found. When dusk drew close, the invading host turned to the west and the Council marched back north, the battle averted.

Negotiation cohesion:
6 + 6u1 -> 10
No diplomacy penalty for negotiations.

Negotiations:
3 + 4u1 (Greenvalley) vs. 5 + 5u1 (Sparrow's Rest) -> 5 vs 4
Deal accepted as offered.

In Greenvalley though, the strife was only beginning. When told what the Council had negotiated, many felt their actions were tantamount to betrayal of the people. How did they dare to kneel and scrape before lowlanders? How did they dare to pay tribute to them? Unsurprisingly, it was the hunters who were the loudest about their misgivings, but after the events of the last year, nobody was inclined to listen overly much to them, especially not when they began advocating to attack the army while it was still making camp. Yet part of the misgivings were echoed by others. Tall Reed was beleaguered by his supporters for trading away so much instead of just swearing that the people would no longer travel out of Greenvalley. Meanwhile the artisans griped about their hard work going to waste because of the hunters hubris and voices grew that Fingers was just too senile and decrepit to have negotiated a better deal for them.

The divisions among the people grew with every day and while it was widely accepted that Willow was a traitor and had failed the ancestors, it became ever more accepted that it was the whole Council who was unworthy of their authority. As if to confirm the ancestors ire that many expected, Fingers fell ill in these days and passed just half a seasons later in the midst of summer. There were attempts to name a successor to her, but the Artisans were unwilling to accept any election performed by the gutted High Council, especially as there was still no plan how to fill the seat of Willow. Every of his eligible successors were gone together with him and since no further runners had arrived since fall, many thought them all dead. Those who didn't felt that Willows exile was tantamount to a coup by Tall Reed and Fingers and they rejected any and all proposals to replace him out of hand.

In the fall of that year, the fishes had a large gathering at Laketop and voted to force Tall Reed to step down, despite neither having the power to do so, nor having talked with any of the other groups in the valley about this. In the winter, the chamber of the High Council laid cold and empty. No fire was lit, for no one was there who would need it. The Council was no more.

Reconciling actions with the Mandate:
3 + 4u1 -> 1
Complete failure.

Stability Check:
6 + 6u1 -> 4
Lost 2 Stability. Council delegitimized.
New Stability: 4/10

Succession Crisis started!
During a succession crisis, the highest authority in the state is vacant and there is a conflict about how this vacuum should be filled. Factions can openly sabotage or even outright attack each other. The state formally stays unified, but all factions have to compete for resources. Deficit spending for Culture is allowed, which greatly accelerates Cultural Idea decay and formation. The Succession Crisis ends once one faction can, through diplomacy, intrigue or military might, instate a new highest authority.

Note: The Mandate of the Ancestors is inactive until the Succession Crisis is resolved.


Total Production: 24

Consumption:
-1 for Pilgrim Village
-27 for Pops

Balance: -4
Food shortage causes mood penalty.

What faction do you want to play as for the duration of the Succession Crisis?
[] [Faction] Artisans
[] [Faction] Fishes
[] [Faction] Bone Tenders
[] [Faction] Great Deer and the Hunters (focus moves away from Greenvalley)




AN: That happened. Tsundere dice are out in force again. Next chapter will focus on the status and desires of the faction you pick with some info on the other groups vying for the Mandate. I've also formally made the Bone Tenders a faction, since they have been growing in influence and importance lately, so that was going to happen soon-ish anyway, but I feel they should get proper representation for this crisis.
 
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I must honestly admit that I am unsure about how to feel about this. I am glad that negotiations went so well, but it is kind of funny, that what are screwing us is how unhappy our people where with it.
 
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I must honestly admit that I am unsure about how to feel about this. I am glad that negotiations went so well, but it is kind of funny, that what are screwing us is how unhappy our people where with it.
If it's any consolidation, you would be in a very similar situation if negotiations had failed, just with a ton of dead people and destroyed stuff on top.

The core issue is that faction desires have been left to drift apart over the generations and now the crisis blew the rifts wide open.
 
>6/10 Stability
>Your Army disobeys it's orders
>4/10 Stability
>Have a nice civil war guys!

Yeah, no wonder I was wary of trying to become active in this.
 
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