I vaguely recall that we were gonna have a food problem, I can't recall if that was solved already but if not we should focus on that to :p.

Part of our food problem was self-created since we kept having half of our hunters going on raids, and, you know, not hunting. But let me do the math again and see how the food situation looks.

Wow am I happy to see quest breathing again! I'm also glad you're feeling better Azel. That said, I definitely want to pick up where we left off.
[X] Resurrect Tales of History, for the glory of the Ancestors!
GLORY TO THE ANCESTORS!

Jeez, it's superb to see all the old hands piling back into the thread.
 
Ahhh throwing shit in the fire for the dead is just the perfect recipe in the early ages since Fire is most necessary thing for so many inventions.
 
Ahhh throwing shit in the fire for the dead is just the perfect recipe in the early ages since Fire is most necessary thing for so many inventions.

I'm hoping so, because our main advantages are that we exhibit a greater degree of specialization than the Makarites or Brushcrest and we're climatically sheltered from rapid change in ecological circumstances. The lowlanders have waxing/waning cycles: or population booms and busts. We've got to be wary during a boom phase because they can far outnumber us. But if we can create a sturdy system to feed our growing numbers, we're far less likely to see famine or mass death scenarios, which is good for preserving the sort of inter-generational knowledge that is critical for sustained technological advancement. I think strategically this calls for working on our food production and farming, herding, and animal domestication, maybe metalworking and pottery, all while avoiding the chaotic bloodshed going on in the lowlands. But I'm worried about a coalition of forces led by Brushcrest sailing up the river or the Makarites deciding that our walls would be the perfect whetting stones for their hunters. I do think that we ought to proactively look into ways we might deny or stall a riverine force. And-- it's not something I've seen brought up and I don't know if it's possible on a neolithic tech base, but we do exist near the source for the Winding and Gentle Rivers. We might be able to dam them up. It would be a megaproject and would require both knowledge of masonry and irrigation, but the first gravity dams date around 2700 BCE, which I guess is 7000 years after this quest, so maybe not. Still, there should be something we should be able to do. It strikes me that the reason the Makarites have been so successful is that rivers are like the horses of this era, and by being such skilled riversmen, they've been able to appear like lightning in the most unexpected places. In some sense they're like spiritual forerunners to the horselords.
 
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I'm hoping so, because our main advantages are that we exhibit a greater degree of specialization than the Makarites or Brushcrest and we're climatically sheltered from rapid change in ecological circumstances. The lowlanders have waxing/waning cycles: or population booms and busts. We've got to be wary during a boom phase because they can far outnumber us. But if we can create a sturdy system to feed our growing numbers, we're far less likely to see famine or mass death scenarios, which is good for preserving the sort of inter-generational knowledge that is critical for sustained technological advancement. I think strategically this calls for working on our food production and farming, herding, and animal domestication, maybe metalworking and pottery, all while avoiding the chaotic bloodshed going on in the lowlands. But I'm worried about a coalition of forces led by Brushcrest sailing up the river or the Makarites deciding that our walls would be the perfect whetting stones for their hunters. I do think that we ought to proactively look into ways we might deny or stall a riverine force. And-- it's not something I've seen brought up and I don't know if it's possible on a neolithic tech base, but we do exist near the source for the Winding and Gentle Rivers. We might be able to dam them up. It would be a megaproject and would require both knowledge of masonry and irrigation, but the first gravity dams date around 2700 BCE, which I guess is 7000 years after this quest, so maybe not. Still, there should be something we should be able to do. It strikes me that the reason the Makarites have been so successful is that rivers are like the horses of this era, and by being such skilled riversmen, they've been able to appear like lightning in the most unexpected places. In some sense they're like spiritual forerunners to the horselords to follow.
Sailing up the river is going to be SUPER hard and therefore super spottable and much easier to defend against. Ironically the best way is to semi-ally the Makarites who are actually tangentially similar to us, even if they are more batshit crazy about it.
We can also culturally support more settlements, which when we get pottery will allow us to transport food. Once thats the case, getting a settlement near the lowlands would not be a bad idea. It'll be vulnerable and more liable to nature which our traits would hate a bit, but it'll produce far more food with farming.
 
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It strikes me that the reason the Makarites have been so successful is that rivers are like the horses of this era, and by being such skilled riversmen, they've been able to appear like lightning in the most unexpected places. In some sense they're like spiritual forerunners to the horselords.
Precisely. A lot of their success came from being the first ones with good boat building in the river system, hence first turning into a semi-nomadic raider culture and then into a proto-kingdom after they rolled up a Great Hunter who subjugated a ton of minor polities.

This is by the way the source of the group of River People refugees you got early on. That were the remnants of a settlement that the Makarites eradicated.
 
Precisely. A lot of their success came from being the first ones with good boat building in the river system, hence first turning into a semi-nomadic raider culture and then into a proto-kingdom after they rolled up a Great Hunter who subjugated a ton of minor polities.

This is by the way the source of the group of River People refugees you got early on. That were the remnants of a settlement that the Makarites eradicated.
Is it possible to get fanatical populations like the Makar do? I know that if White Hall gets attacked, our people AND the random tribes out in the mountains go full fanatical, but i mean as a reliable unit?
 
Is it possible to get fanatical populations like the Makar do? I know that if White Hall gets attacked, our people AND the random tribes out in the mountains go full fanatical, but i mean as a reliable unit?
Possible yes, but the valley people's culture is pretty anathema to it right now. The Mandate enshrines order and obedience, not fanaticism and personal glory like the Makar do.
 
Sailing up the river is going to be SUPER hard. Ironically the best way is to semi-ally the Makarites who are actually tangentially similar to us, even if they are more batshit crazy about it.
We can also culturally support more settlements, which when we get pottery will allow us to transport food. Once thats the case, getting a settlement near the lowlands would not be a bad idea. It'll be vulnerable and more liable to nature which our traits would hate a bit, but it'll produce far more food with farming.

But we sail up the river all the time after returning from our raids? Or when Brushcrest built Lakerest, I'm pretty sure they sailed upriver to do so. I'm not seeing what the barrier there is.

I'm leery about settlements before pottery. Part of the rationale for a new settlement would be, as you said, greater food production, but hopeful wishes aside, we don't have a timetable for pottery. And before pottery, budding off a section of our populace might reduce our overall capacity for specialization. It may end with us wishing we hadn't shot ourselves in the foot.

Precisely. A lot of their success came from being the first ones with good boat building in the river system, hence first turning into a semi-nomadic raider culture and then into a proto-kingdom after they rolled up a Great Hunter who subjugated a ton of minor polities.

This is by the way the source of the group of River People refugees you got early on. That were the remnants of a settlement that the Makarites eradicated.

I was re-reading the Red Rivers arc and what strikes me now-- I bet it was both funny and tragic to you-- was the way we totally ignored all the rivers surrounding us. We kept thinking in straight lines across land. I remember looking at the map when we were debating whether to go for a decapitation strike on Makar (after the initial battle at Riverbend) and just thinking about it as X miles (or equivalent) to cross, X rivers to ford. I guess that if we'd gone with that, by the time we'd have arrived at Makar, two armies would have rowed up the Clear and Brown Rivers and disembarked on opposite ends of the horizontal line that intersects Makar. With their bonfire-signaling technology, likely learned (or stolen) from Brushcrest, they would first have baited us into storming Makar, and then the two armies, like doors, would have swung shut. Outmaneuvered, in a foreign land, and badly demoralized, any survivors would have been picked off by the more agile Makarite forces. If Sparrow had actually managed to keep the army in good order and break free of the encirclement, not to mention fight all the way back to Greenvalley, it would have been a feat worthy of being called this world's Anabasis. Is that more or less the gist of it?

...

In a way it's really cool that the way our thinking about this so clearly paralleled Sparrow's own understanding of war. For all our strategic advantages re: organization, morale, etc., we failed to realize that our own conception of war was strategically lacking in areas like the lowlands, which are clearly used to a faster tempo of manuever warfare. Fuck me, I just realized why Brushcrest and the rest have the bonfires. We just discarded it as "yeah whatever it's some odd thing they've randomly picked up", but it's a natural development for a style of warfare that developed from nomadic groups continually relocating and striking each other. Clearly if you've split your forces in two, which has to be a common enough occurrence with all those rivers, you'd want some way of communicating. Fuck. Me.
 
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Possible yes, but the valley people's culture is pretty anathema to it right now. The Mandate enshrines order and obedience, not fanaticism and personal glory like the Makar do.
So we need more traits like Leadership and Courage?
Things that enshrine those kind of things at the same time as not contracting order and obedience.
Hmmm, It'd be less fanatic mobs and more Fanatically Elite Units made up of individuals going for an attempt to climb to Hero status.
But we sail up the river all the time after returning from our raids? Or when Brushcrest built Lakerest, I'm pretty sure they sailed upriver to do so. I'm not seeing what the barrier there is.
I said hard, not impossible. Sailing up a mountain is not a fun time, and is really obvious if your bothering to watch out for it.
Also i said ONCE we get pottery.
 
But we sail up the river all the time after returning from our raids? Or when Brushcrest built Lakerest, I'm pretty sure they sailed upriver to do so. I'm not seeing what the barrier there is.

I'm leery about settlements before pottery. Part of the rationale for a new settlement would be, as you said, greater food production, but hopeful wishes aside, we don't have a timetable for pottery. And before pottery, budding off a section of our populace might reduce our overall capacity for specialization. It may end with us wishing we hadn't shot ourselves in the foot.



I was re-reading the Red Rivers arc and what strikes me now-- I bet it was both funny and tragic to you-- was the way we totally ignored all the rivers surrounding us. We kept thinking in straight lines across land. I remember looking at the map when we were debating whether to go for a decapitation strike on Makar (after the initial battle at Riverbend) and just thinking about it as X miles (or equivalent) to cross, X rivers to ford. I guess that if we'd gone with that, by the time we'd have arrived at Makar, two armies would have rowed up the Clear and Brown Rivers and disembarked on opposite ends of the horizontal line that intersects Makar. With their bonfire-signaling technology, likely learned (or stolen) from Brushcrest, they would first have baited us into storming Makar, and then the two armies, like doors, would have swung shut. Outmaneuvered, in a foreign land, and badly demoralized, any survivors would have been picked off by the more agile Makarite forces. If Sparrow had actually managed to keep the army in good order and break free of the encirclement, not to mention fight all the way back to Greenvalley, it would have been a feat worthy of being called this world's Anabasis. Is that more or less the gist of it?

...

In a way it's really cool that the way our thinking about this so clearly paralleled Sparrow's own understanding of war. For all our strategic advantages re: organization, morale, etc., we failed to realize that our own conception of war was strategically lacking in areas like the lowlands, which are clearly used to a faster tempo of manuever warfare. Fuck me, I just realized why Brushcrest and the rest have the bonfires. We just discarded it as "yeah whatever it's some odd thing they've randomly picked up", but it's a natural development for a style of warfare that developed from nomadic groups continually relocating and striking each other. Clearly if you've split your forces in two, which has to be a common enough occurrence with all those rivers, you'd naturally want some way of communicating. Fuck. Me.
Sadly I can't rate your post Insightful and Hugs at the same time, so Funny it is for the likely hilarious expression on your face right now. :p
 
I said hard, not impossible. Sailing up a mountain is not a fun time, and is really obvious if your bothering to watch out for it.
Also i said ONCE we get pottery.

Fair enough on that second point, new settlements are a must once we actually get pottery. But as far as I recall, we're not into the mountains. I think that sailing from Greenvalley to the source of the rivers would be difficult, but leading a strike force from Brushcrest to Greenvalley via rowing up the gentle river isn't hard. We row that stretch of the river all the time.

Sadly I can't rate your post Insightful and Hugs at the same time, so Funny it is for the likely hilarious expression on your face right now. :p

Why is there no crying face reaction ???

Azel is the devil gm. Azel bamboozles his players. Those of you who are new to this thread: run, because this devil eats his players whole and uses their shattered hopes and dreams to clean his teeth.

:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:
 
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Wait, you didn't realize the fires were a clue towards the mobile style of combat? The signal fires were used by the likes of the Chinese for ages for communication that allows a far more mobile style of combat, but the water travel being their horses is something i didn't realize or even think of.
 
I'm hoping so, because our main advantages are that we exhibit a greater degree of specialization than the Makarites or Brushcrest and we're climatically sheltered from rapid change in ecological circumstances. The lowlanders have waxing/waning cycles: or population booms and busts. We've got to be wary during a boom phase because they can far outnumber us. But if we can create a sturdy system to feed our growing numbers, we're far less likely to see famine or mass death scenarios, which is good for preserving the sort of inter-generational knowledge that is critical for sustained technological advancement. I think strategically this calls for working on our food production and farming, herding, and animal domestication, maybe metalworking and pottery, all while avoiding the chaotic bloodshed going on in the lowlands. But I'm worried about a coalition of forces led by Brushcrest sailing up the river or the Makarites deciding that our walls would be the perfect whetting stones for their hunters. I do think that we ought to proactively look into ways we might deny or stall a riverine force. And-- it's not something I've seen brought up and I don't know if it's possible on a neolithic tech base, but we do exist near the source for the Winding and Gentle Rivers. We might be able to dam them up. It would be a megaproject and would require both knowledge of masonry and irrigation, but the first gravity dams date around 2700 BCE, which I guess is 7000 years after this quest, so maybe not. Still, there should be something we should be able to do. It strikes me that the reason the Makarites have been so successful is that rivers are like the horses of this era, and by being such skilled riversmen, they've been able to appear like lightning in the most unexpected places. In some sense they're like spiritual forerunners to the horselords.

One possible low-tech way to stall, or at least delay, a river-bound force could be to fell a large number of trees at various points be ready to roll the logs into to the river. The resulting log jam, if big enough, would force the the invaders to either wait it out or disembark and move around the jam, leaving them vulnerable to an ambush and with a river to their back.
 
Wait, you didn't realize the fires were a clue towards the mobile style of combat? The signal fires were used by the likes of the Chinese for ages for communication that allows a far more mobile style of combat, but the water travel being their horses is something i didn't realize or even think of.

Nope. Being a big dummy I took it at face value. In retrospect, if we re-frame our little adventure into the lowlands as a, say, Persian army marching out into the steppe to fight a nomadic foe without nomad auxiliaries of their own or much understanding of the terrain, we can see how absurdly lucky we were in the Red Rivers arc. If we hadn't successfully forded the river at Riverbend, or hadn't beaten the garrison with enough savoir-faire to impress the Makarites, or if the balance of power in the region hadn't been skewed enough towards Brushcrest for the Makarites to consider even a temporary alliance... there were a hundred futures where this might have ended up being our Cannae, but somehow we managed to pluck a status quo ante bellum from a thicket of treachery and strategic misjudgment.
 
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Fuck I just realized this is why the White Clanspeople were so goddamn nervous about going near the waters. I thought that was @Azel just trying to spook us, but they've got a style of warfare similar to our own and some of the mountains are closer to the lowlanders than us. They must have suffered-- well, not a Cannae, they don't have the organizational capacity to muster that many men, but I wouldn't be surprised if small raiding parties had just disappeared, surrounded and cut to pieces, spooking future generations of clansmen.

One possible low-tech way to stall, or at least delay, a river-bound force could be to fell a large number of trees at various points be ready to roll the logs into to the river. The resulting log jam, if big enough, would force the the invaders to either wait it out or disembark and move around the jam, leaving them vulnerable to an ambush and with a river to their back.

Genius.

Thinking about it, we might try and resurrect the whole "fireboats" idea again too, see if that might work. The problem is that, barring building a settlement, we can only bar the waters when we know that the enemy is approaching, which might end up happening too close to Greenvalley for logjams or fireships to make any difference. If only we had horses and pots. What I would do for us to have horses and pots.
 
So basically we should be looking to other riverine civs for inspiration on how to do War.

Vikings, perhaps?
 
Unless they're those flat escalator thingys that do the walking for us, I don't see how they help us. We'd want to expand towards the south, and the river conveniently goes downriver that direction anyways, and that's always going to be faster than walking.
honestly our third settlement should be to the west on the other side of the mountains, and their is no fast waterway for us their.
 
So it seems like we have 3 major goals once we're back into it.

1: Stabilize the damn food in a way that doesn't require our military's constant presence. I recall that we had started with decent progress to domesticating orchards.
2: Pottery. Can everyone, peanut gallery included, start tossing up ideas on how we might go about encouraging that?
3: Either find a way to adapt our methods of war to the grasslands, or find a way to properly turtle the valley against river raiders.

Minor goals include:
1: Sating the warriors war fervor without crippling losses.
2: Population growth and territory expansion, locked behind stable food and pottery.
3: Keep abreast of events in the lowlands without going dark for generations like we did before.
4: Encouragement of technological development.
5: Continue spreading the faith of bones. Maybe Makar might be compatible for influencing, after all they have an ancestor god, not some non-existing water spirits, and enshrined at the core of our faith are our past heroes, Red Wolf (White Wolf), Snow Fox (Black Bear), Skyfather (the elder who led us to the valley and died once we got here in the prologue) and the Speaker, much like Makar is enshrined in their faith.

Our Advantages:
1: A stable climate at home.
2: Specialized workforce, will combo even better with a greater population.
3: Cremation burial rights with sacrificial offerings to a huge flame, good for fire tech progress.
4: Impenetrable home. Remember how bullshit the 4 or 7 makar fanatics were against our elites in our favored method of war? We have 20+ of them in Greenvalley. Also masonry.
5: Did I forget to mention Masonry? We build big things in stone, something that no other local civ does or has a counter for, including the wall around Greenvalley. Although the intrigue hero might have mentioned that we've somehow worked the mountains into our buildings to his people from back when he visited us.
 
So it seems like we have 3 major goals once we're back into it.

1: Stabilize the damn food in a way that doesn't require our military's constant presence. I recall that we had started with decent progress to domesticating orchards.
2: Pottery. Can everyone, peanut gallery included, start tossing up ideas on how we might go about encouraging that?
3: Either find a way to adapt our methods of war to the grasslands, or find a way to properly turtle the valley against river raiders.

Minor goals include:
1: Sating the warriors war fervor without crippling losses.
2: Population growth and territory expansion, locked behind stable food and pottery.
3: Keep abreast of events in the lowlands without going dark for generations like we did before.
4: Encouragement of technological development.
5: Continue spreading the faith of bones. Maybe Makar might be compatible for influencing, after all they have an ancestor god, not some non-existing water spirits, and enshrined at the core of our faith are our past heroes, Red Wolf (White Wolf), Snow Fox (Black Bear), Skyfather (the elder who led us to the valley and died once we got here in the prologue) and the Speaker, much like Makar is enshrined in their faith.

Our Advantages:
1: A stable climate at home.
2: Specialized workforce, will combo even better with a greater population.
3: Cremation burial rights with sacrificial offerings to a huge flame, good for fire tech progress.
4: Impenetrable home. Remember how bullshit the 4 or 7 makar fanatics were against our elites in our favored method of war? We have 20+ of them in Greenvalley. Also masonry.
5: Did I forget to mention Masonry? We build big things in stone, something that no other local civ does or has a counter for, including the wall around Greenvalley. Although the intrigue hero might have mentioned that we've somehow worked the mountains into our buildings to his people from back when he visited us.
Major goals ideas
1: no idea that doesn't involve pushing into the plains
2: using the river clay we should have to either build/make war paints
3: expand ensuring either direct water way or road way to our capital.
Minor goals
1: war games
2: locked without costly expansion now
3: exapnd
4: expand
5: did I mention expansion?
 
[X] Resurrect Tales of History, for the glory of the Ancestors!

Didn't expect this to rise from the ashes. Nice to see it back up again, though.
 
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