I'm... very confused.

I mean. Up to this point, the Rider-us pair must have gotten plenty of police officers killed while also splattering people from the cult, and we never really gave much of a damn about it. So why is the Brie personality suddenly going into terror/guilt mode over Olga Marie, Serial Killer when she's tried to kill us twice?

Did Brie just ignore all the bleeding bodies she's been leaving around?
 
I'm...honestly kind of confused why people are so upset? This is a godsdamned Grail War.

We were never going to get through this without crossing a few lines. Hell No one can. everyone participating in this war is a terrible person to some degree and we are no exception.

Yes, we should try to minimize collateral damage, yes we can disapprove of the actions of other Masters, but I'm feeling like half the thread is trying to play as a legitimately good person and that is Simply not possible at this point

Anyway...

[X] "Well... For one I'm learning the consequences of my actions. In the worst way possible."
 
Okay you know what? No.

[x] "I'm trying to make an alliance to fight your Students. And somehow I blame you a little bit for making them too damn strong."

Why did Kiara tell us about this? She obviously had an agenda, what are the possibilities? Oh, basically only one, she's trying to drive a wedge between us and Medb.

Stop targeting Medb and focus on the real problem, we already knew she wasn't a good person and we're not a good person either.

Get off your high horses people, come on.

You were wrong to pick the vomiting vote and you're gonna be wrong again if you keep bringing this up, this is a pointless diversion.
 
[X] "Well... For one I'm learning the consequences of my actions. In the worst way possible."

I'm... very confused.

I mean. Up to this point, the Rider-us pair must have gotten plenty of police officers killed while also splattering people from the cult, and we never really gave much of a damn about it. So why is the Brie personality suddenly going into terror/guilt mode over Olga Marie, Serial Killer when she's tried to kill us twice?

Did Brie just ignore all the bleeding bodies she's been leaving around?

We actually have been pretty good about avoiding police casualties. Further, the cultist where combatants, rides been killing essentially random innocents. Like, you know how we found out about a serial killer and decided it had to go? ridders killed way more than that.
 
[x] "I'm trying to make an alliance to fight your Students. And somehow I blame you a little bit for making them too damn strong."
 
Okay yeah this has less chance to segue poorly

[x] "I'm trying to make an alliance to fight your Students. And somehow I blame you a little bit for making them too damn strong."
 
[X] "I'm trying to make an alliance to fight your Students. And somehow I blame you a little bit for making them too damn strong."
 
Get off your high horses people, come on.

You were wrong to pick the vomiting vote and you're gonna be wrong again if you keep bringing this up, this is a pointless diversion.

Well, that's your opinion.

My opinion is that now that, despite not picking the option to discuss Medb's crimes, we still ended up discussing them, we'll need to clear the air between us.

[X] "Well... For one I'm learning the consequences of my actions. In the worst way possible."

Yes, Kiara did it to drive a wedge between us. If we don't talk about it now, she'll succeed.

Like, Brie could have repressed it all the way down, but she didn't. That means this is an important topic for her that she won't be able to avoid thinking about.

That means we have to work through it.
 
You guys forget the Brie is basically a newborn with all the moral quagmire that entails with that sapience,and she had to gain this newfound morality in the middle of a Grail War where the players have already hardened themselves to sacrifices.

Brie isn't hardened. At all. Up to now, Brie was lucky to face opponents who were relatively nice (Hans, Master of Caster, etc) or people who you don't feel bad when their faces gets caved in, and she's been pretty good at minimising casualties on her own side thanks to early police surveillance. Now, with what Emergency Brie did to Olga and the resultant reaction from their next meeting and the revelation that Rider may have accidentally oopsied a few innocents during her 'patrols' , it's clear that Brie isn't ready to take up the responsibility of eliminating morally ambiguous individuals and her consciousness is taking a beating.

A good long talk on what her priorities should be, how she should feel about the recent incidents and how she should handle her guilt is a long fucking time in the making and not some 'high horse we should get off'.
 
[x] "Well... For one I'm learning the consequences of my actions. In the worst way possible."

Why did Kiara tell us about this? She obviously had an agenda, what are the possibilities? Oh, basically only one, she's trying to drive a wedge between us and Medb.

Stop targeting Medb and focus on the real problem, we already knew she wasn't a good person and we're not a good person either.

Get off your high horses people, come on.

You were wrong to pick the vomiting vote and you're gonna be wrong again if you keep bringing this up, this is a pointless diversion.

The last vote options were A. Puke in a bin(which we picked) B. Deny the actions done during our Mecha-Brie persona are our responsibility(and phrased in a way that screams Bad End Flags), or C. Try to deny that Medb did drain people to death.

Notably, the option that contained neither anything related to Medb or an unhealthy level of denial won, so I'm not sure where you're getting that the last vote was "Ant-Medb" or a high-horse.

As for this vote we've got

[] "You really do have a lot of free time."
Which is just a deflection, possibly goes into why exactly Shishou is around.
[] "Rider shared a lot with me today. I'm not sure how to take it."
The "make this about Medb" option(and not the one people are picking by the way)
[] "Well... For one I'm learning the consequences of my actions. In the worst way possible."

Theoretically this could just be about Olga, but I'm guessing it's more about sharing with Shishou all of our issues we're having since as Medb's master we are responsible for her actions, and since we chose to go into Combat mode we are also responsible for the actions that resulted in Olga's current state. Seems like the option thats most helpful.
[] "I'm trying to make an alliance to fight your Students. And somehow I blame you a little bit for making them too damn strong."

Also deflects, but this time by focusing on Cu there's minimal chance of Shishou pushing about our emotional/mental issues, leaving them to fester.

Regardless nobodies on a high horse, and I'd argue that pretty much nobody in the thread is anti-Medb.
 
It's fine to admit Brie is scared and doesn't know what to do, and is ultimately still weak.

Olga is like this because Brie was weak and needed robo mode. Medb made Bad Decisions because Brie was weak and unable to accept all of her passion.

On the other hand, Brie freed Fran and gave her a new life. She also made Hinako stand up for herself and gave her a new life too. Medb wants to change and has kept Brie from going too far, because she doesn't want to win that way. Emiya has an ally and another reason to fight.

This isn't about becoming a "good person". This is about facing ourselves and the things we've done, about fighting with our own power, and about becoming strong, or at least looking bigger than we are. Because that's where our best work has come from.
 
[X] "Well... For one I'm learning the consequences of my actions. In the worst way possible."



We actually have been pretty good about avoiding police casualties. Further, the cultist where combatants, rides been killing essentially random innocents. Like, you know how we found out about a serial killer and decided it had to go? ridders killed way more than that.

No issue with being concerned about Rider's murder booty, I'm just wondering why we care about Olga.

Um, yes?
Bleeding bodies don't scream in horror every time they see you.

Easier to ignore.

They generally do scream when you're breaking them in two. :p

Thinking about it, she started going into guilt mode even during the fight with Olga, immediately once Emergency Brie turned off - so we can't even look at it as "she had her blood up when she was fighting the cult members". Presumably her blood was very up back then, and besides she's had plenty of time to think of all the corpses since.
 
They generally do scream when you're breaking them in two. :p

Well, they've been doing it discretely, offscreen, without attracting attention to them.

Meanwhile, Olga Marie is all in our face with her mental breakdowns, serial murder and whatnot, that's why this whole episode is so contentious.
 
You guys forget the Brie is basically a newborn with all the moral quagmire that entails with that sapience,and she had to gain this newfound morality in the middle of a Grail War where the players have already hardened themselves to sacrifices.

Brie isn't hardened. At all. Up to now, Brie was lucky to face opponents who were relatively nice (Hans, Master of Caster, etc) or people who you don't feel bad when their faces gets caved in, and she's been pretty good at minimising casualties on her own side thanks to early police surveillance. Now, with what Emergency Brie did to Olga and the resultant reaction from their next meeting and the revelation that Rider may have accidentally oopsied a few innocents during her 'patrols' , it's clear that Brie isn't ready to take up the responsibility of eliminating morally ambiguous individuals and her consciousness is taking a beating.

A good long talk on what her priorities should be, how she should feel about the recent incidents and how she should handle her guilt is a long fucking time in the making and not some 'high horse we should get off'.
The crux of the issue is that we've hit a fundamental fact of Brie's early-game strategy: Momentum had to be kept.
We eliminated "more" Masters because Brie got the strategic and long-term help assistance options and rarely took the option to withdraw from a fight. But after we beat Hinako and Frankenstein, things slowed down. Kiara got Olga off-screen. We got involved with Hans, Shishou, and did Medb-buli. Right now, our only solid piece of progress that remains is the elimination of Caster. The police, while only marginally relevant compared to Kiara's cultists, are about to enter the phase where they're only good for helping a write-in of "evacuate the city".

Brie's struggles were in the name of ending the fights as quickly as possible. And it's 90% been for nothing.
The last vote options were A. Puke in a bin(which we picked) B. Deny the actions done during our Mecha-Brie persona are our responsibility(and phrased in a way that screams Bad End Flags), or C. Try to deny that Medb did drain people to death.
Or D. The write-in about Medb and Kiara's dalliances having ominous implications. But turns out Kiara wasn't sending Rider over the edge and out of control.
Meanwhile, Olga Marie is all in our face with her mental breakdowns, serial murder and whatnot, that's why this whole episode is so contentious.
No, this isn't contentious because of 'in your face' problems. It's contentious because 1. A previously 'safe' behavior method known to the players is now revealed to have been false. 2. It's something that fundamentally has no easy to understand solution.

Think back to my last post: Medb lied to us because she is incapable of changing who she fundamentally is, as a Heroic Spirit. Yet she knows that Brie accepting the deaths of innocents is going to destroy what she loves in Brie. The only people to rein Medb in and make her behave are other Heroic Spirits. So, on the surface, the only ways to solve the issue seem to be either performing a deed worthy of becoming a Heroic Spirit ourselves or altering Medb's life-granting Wish on the Petty Grail to better put her in a position where she can change as a person. These both have a problem of being end-goals, not things to be done now, and especially not things which solve the problem now. And I'm not even touching the disturbing fact that Medb chose to use our poor prana-supply situation as a metaphor for our romantic relationship.
 
No, this isn't contentious because of 'in your face' problems. It's contentious because 1. A previously 'safe' behavior method known to the players is now revealed to have been false. 2. It's something that fundamentally has no easy to understand solution.

If we never met her again, there wouldn't be a shitstorm and Brie wouldn't feel bad, it's as simple as that. I don't say it to somehow decry Rabbit for reusing Olga's character or some shit; on the contrary.

I'm just explaining to Thistletoe why, in my opinion, Brie has never paid attention to the lives she's ruined before, but now suddenly goes maximum guilt because of Olga Marie.
 
If we never met her again, there wouldn't be a shitstorm and Brie wouldn't feel bad, it's as simple as that. I don't say it to somehow decry Rabbit for reusing Olga's character or some shit; on the contrary.

I'm just explaining to Thistletoe why, in my opinion, Brie has never paid attention to the lives she's ruined before, but now suddenly goes maximum guilt because of Olga Marie.
I'm afraid that's inaccurate on both counts. We've seen, while less dramatic, naval-gazing over killing someone seemingly in as bad a situation as Brie. And the police brainwashing/future relationship problems has never escaped Brie's notice, nor has their potential to die to magical threats they can't counter. It's only with Olga's attack on Hans' mansion that things went pear-shaped.
 
I'm afraid that's inaccurate on both counts. We've seen, while less dramatic, naval-gazing over killing someone seemingly in as bad a situation as Brie. And the police brainwashing/future relationship problems has never escaped Brie's notice, nor has their potential to die to magical threats they can't counter. It's only with Olga's attack on Hans' mansion that things went pear-shaped.

Well, maybe "paid attention" was a wrong phrase to use. "Cared" is more appropriate, I guess.

Look, it's human condition. Nobody cares about everyone all the time, it just doesn't happen. I've heard there was a guy like that and, well, he died for our sins.
 
Well, maybe "paid attention" was a wrong phrase to use. "Cared" is more appropriate, I guess.

Look, it's human condition. Nobody cares about everyone all the time, it just doesn't happen. I've heard there was a guy like that and, well, he died for our sins.
True. It's been more past tense 'ah hell, that could've been me' and future-tense 'these people are highly likley to die in the next week because of what I'm doing'. Active decision-making hasn't been quite as involved compared to a partial-opening of Pandora's Box.
 
I think a lot of people are forgetting that we'd kinda accepted that Medb was a terrible person and that Brie was a terrible person for liking her. Granted. the whole thing here seems to be figuring out exactly where Brie's lines are drawn, but some people seem to be trying to draw them back at points we crossed over a month ago.

Also, the reason why Olga is affecting us so much is because we didn't just summarily execute her, so she's still around to be an object lesson on how terrifying our Emergency Mode is when it really gets going. Note that this is an outcome that none of us wanted, and that Brie's revulsion is entirely understandable, given how easily the few values she's developed were overwritten.
 
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Think back to my last post: Medb lied to us because she is incapable of changing who she fundamentally is, as a Heroic Spirit.

While you might be onto something with your psychoanalysis of Medb, I don't think you'e Right about Heroic spirits being incapable of changing who they are, off the top of my head I can think of two Heroic Spirits who have changed in similar manners, one being EMIYA in the Unlimited Blade Works route and the second and possibly more relevant one being Mordred in Apocrypha.

Mordred's treachery and anger against her father are integral not just to who she is as a person but to her identity as a Heroic Spirit, yet she gets over those by the time of her death in Apocrypha and has a personal epiphany that changes what she would have wanted and wished for.

Actually, now that I think on it, Arturia manages a similar epiphany in the Fate route of F/SN where by the end of the grail war what she would have wished for changes and she is able to give up the grail that much more easily because she is able to let go of the failures that power her motivations.

I have no doubt that -over time- Medb can change in the same ways. A happy end (no not like that) (well... Maybe like that in the long run) for her and Brie together may well be possible.
 
I have no doubt that -over time- Medb can change in the same ways. A happy end (no not like that) (well... Maybe like that in the long run) for her and Brie together may well be possible.
The change of EMIYA, Mordred, and Artoria are kinda what I meant: They're the culmination of their stories... right before they die. It's a bit frustrating to not have the answer to a problem that's apparently always existed now. Not to mention the goal to Medb reigning in her lusts is rather fraught with possibilities for failure.
 
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