Fate/White Parmesan

AnonymousRabbit · Jan 24, 2020

Impstar said:
Come to think of it, Archer has participated in the deaths of enough civilians that I'm kind of shocked she doesn't just command seal him to death. It's one thing to be impartial, but her very position was meant to stop things like this.

She's a nice girl, but still

It's Archer's faction doing the killing and what blew up the building, not Archer himself. His shots are always directed on either a Master or a Servant. Collateral damage is something expected of the war and Ruler's pissed at not getting to whap people for it.

Zeroth Jupi · Jan 24, 2020

[X] You'll talk to Archer's faction while Emiya finds Assassin. He might have a better chance of convincing Olga if he finds her. Archer was going to be tricky given the whole cult thing but you'll have to shoot your shot.

Raiseth · Jan 24, 2020

Impstar said:
If people are voting to visit Assassin and Olga to apologize, they shouldn't bother. They don't deserve an apology. Committing mass murder of innocents kind of destroys any moral ground they may have had.

I mean, that's a very black and white moral view.

For example, Berserker Bjorn Bjornson slaughters people for money and lulz.
But you kicked his little dog.

Is it wrong to apologize?
Okay, better yet.

A moneylender always lowballs the price of collateral, even when her client is a half-starving student.

Is it morally correct to sneak into her flat and murder her with an axe? And steal her money.

Okay, something in the middle.

Serial killer murders her victims around the city.
You tell her that she would never make her father proud, and then psychologically and physically torture her for several minutes, leaving her with several bullet holes and shattered mental landscape when she runs away from you.
Was that a right thing to do?

Impstar · Jan 24, 2020

Raiseth said:
For example, Berserker Bjorn Bjornson slaughters people for money and lulz.
But you kicked his little dog.

Is it wrong to apologize?

It's not wrong to feel sorry about it, the dog (probably) didn't do anything. But Bjorn hardly deserves an apology for your actions (just apologize to the dog).

Raiseth said:
A moneylender always lowballs the price of collateral, even when her client is a half-starving student.

Is it morally correct to sneak into her flat and murder her with an axe? And steal her money.

Um, no. Proportional response.

Raiseth said:
Serial killer murders her victims around the city.
You tell her that she would never make her father proud, and then psychologically and physically torture her for several minutes, leaving her with several bullet holes and shattered mental landscape when she runs away from you.
Was that a right thing to do?

Considering she was doing her utmost to murder us when we were doing this, yes it was the right thing to do; I'd take breaking her psychologically over her murdering us any day. Heck, we didn't even kill her when we could have (still think we should have).

I'm not sure what you're trying to indicate with these examples. If it's a grey situation with nuance, I think you need better examples, because they seem straightforward to me.

veekie · Jan 24, 2020

Always Late said:
Oh. Apparently the thing is 'not teach Shirou how to drive'.

Cars tend to die easily when being a Hero of Justice

Always Late · Jan 24, 2020

veekie said:
Cars tend to die easily when being a Hero of Justice

Nah, pretty sure he got that from his dad.

Raiseth · Jan 24, 2020

Impstar said:
I'm not sure what you're trying to indicate with these examples. If it's a grey situation with nuance, I think you need better examples, because they seem straightforward to me.

The first two questions are deliberately monochromatic. The majority of people would agree with you on them. Some wouldn't. Some would think that kicking a dog is fine, since it's a dog of an evil man. Some would think that killing an old lady is justified, because she's killing her clients by proxy.

Now, people might agree with these answers or even follow them. We call those people criminals, because they break the law. ( kicking dogs is illegal, yo )
Do they stop being people because they are criminals? Can you do to them whatever because they commit immoral actions?

Torture them? Humiliate them? Kill them?

If it was self-defense, sure, grab a gun and shoot. When someone's lying on the ground and you start breaking their bones, situation suddenly becomes a little murky.

ChildishChimera · Jan 24, 2020

[X] You'll talk to Archer's faction while Emiya finds Assassin. He might have a better chance of convincing Olga if he finds her. Archer was going to be tricky given the whole cult thing but you'll have to shoot your shot.

Assassin will kill us on sight we've done nothing but beat down on Marie the entire war, shit on her dreams, and almost killed her twice us asking this would be a sick joke that ends with Liz dropping body's Asap so she has enough energy to backstab or if she doesn't care about waiting front stab us.

Keldin · Jan 24, 2020

[X] You'll talk to Assassin while Emiya meets with Archer's people. It's going to suck but you'll have to do it. It's your mess after all and you're not going to sleep right until you made things clear.

Impstar said:
If people are voting to visit Assassin and Olga to apologize, they shouldn't bother. They don't deserve an apology. Committing mass murder of innocents kind of destroys any moral ground they may have had.

Respectfully, that's a crock of shit. Firstly people can vote for whatever they want.
Secondly Olga's done nothing worse then pretty much anybody else in this War. Emiya's probably the only one with clean hands.

Caster had the whole vamp thing, Berserker was rampaging bad enough Ruler had to intervene, Archer has the whole Magic drug cult that's probably spun off of Kiara's, and this isn't Hans' first Grail War.

Aside from that, it's absurd to try to claim a moral high ground. Rider is using people and tossing them away everytime we sleep somewhere and we have the entire police department under our thumb. God knows how many lives have been ruined by those actions alone. Not to mention the whole "physically maim and psychologically torture the person that is in a situation not too dissimilar from our own".

Always Late · Jan 24, 2020

Raiseth said:
Do they stop being people because they are criminals? Can you do to them whatever because they commit immoral actions?

*looks at history textbook*
*looks at legal history bookshelf*
That's a question nobody wants to answer out of fear of what taking the logical endpoint will mean to 'certain people'.

NephyrisX · Jan 24, 2020

[X] You'll talk to Assassin while Emiya meets with Archer's people. It's going to suck but you'll have to do it. It's your mess after all and you're not going to sleep right until you made things clear.

taovkool · Jan 24, 2020

[X] You'll talk to Assassin while Emiya meets with Archer's people. It's going to suck but you'll have to do it. It's your mess after all and you're not going to sleep right until you made things clear.

Clean yp your own shit. Basic living 101

random_npc · Jan 24, 2020

[X] You'll talk to Archer's faction while Emiya finds Assassin. He might have a better chance of convincing Olga if he finds her. Archer was going to be tricky given the whole cult thing but you'll have to shoot your shot.

shiru is probly better at helping somone unfuck their head that we are, and we're likily better at lying. so we do the cultists and he does the traumatized serial killer.

Raiseth · Jan 24, 2020

Always Late said:
*looks at history textbook*
*looks at legal history bookshelf*
That's a question nobody wants to answer out of fear of what taking the logical endpoint will mean to 'certain people'.

Eh, governments are absolutely fine with the concept. I mean, one of the principles of the government is that it has a monopoly on violence in its judicial borders. In these times, they use euphemisms, by calling particular criminals with a large kill count "terrorists" and killing them "elimination". Governments aren't people, though. They are organizations. For everyone, the question is personal, because there isn't a way to streamline moral principles for everyone.

Eh, still, we're in Canada. It doesn't happen here as often, I think? Also, this debate veers some ways from the thread, so we need to say something about cheese.

Impstar · Jan 24, 2020

Raiseth said:
Do they stop being people because they are criminals? Can you do to them whatever because they commit immoral actions?

Being a criminal itself doesn't mean they lose rights as people, but depending on context? That answer could change.

Raiseth said:
Torture them? Humiliate them? Kill them?

If it was self-defense, sure, grab a gun and shoot. When someone's lying on the ground and you start breaking their bones, situation suddenly becomes a little murky.

And there we have it. The context. We did not, in fact, sneak up on her and start laying the psychological beatdown unprovoked. We didn't even, as you implied, just start breaking her when she was already down. We started the psychological beatdown when she was still trying her best to kill us, and for the most part stopped after she was down. I mean, yeah we did shoot her when Assassin called our bluff that wasn't really a bluff and tried to kill Rider, but I think that's a bit different.

Keldin said:
Respectfully, that's a crock of shit. Firstly people can vote for whatever they want.

Well yeah. But I can say that people shouldn't vote for something. If a group of voters decided, for some reason, the best course of action would be to submit to brainwashing and become a mindless doll again (an extreme example of course, but it's the principle of the matter) I can certainly say that they shouldn't vote for that. I just can't actually force them one way or another.

Keldin said:
Secondly Olga's done nothing worse then pretty much anybody else in this War. Emiya's probably the only one with clean hands.

Caster had the whole vamp thing, Berserker was rampaging bad enough Ruler had to intervene, Archer has the whole Magic drug cult that's probably spun off of Kiara's, and this isn't Hans' first Grail War.

Aside from that, it's absurd to try to claim a moral high ground. Rider is using people and tossing them away everytime we sleep somewhere and we have the entire police department under our thumb. God knows how many lives have been ruined by those actions alone. Not to mention the whole "physically maim and psychologically torture the person that is in a situation not too dissimilar from our own".

Yeah, and we're going out to try and stop all these people. I'm not advocating torturing someone when they've been defeated, or even killing them after they've been defeated (by the way, since Olga was still supporting Assassin, I consider Olga to have not been defeated; she could have told Assassin to stand down but she didn't), but doing what we did, in the middle of a battle that we very well could have lost (and then died)? It's fair game. Also, what Medb is doing is, in fact, not as serious as the varying degrees of mass murder many of the other masters are practicing.

Are people saying that doing horrible things doesn't matter because everyone (except Shirou and to a degree us) is doing horrible things? That such things can be forgiven because everyone is doing them? That really bothers me.

Always Late · Jan 24, 2020

Raiseth said:
Eh, still, we're in Canada. It doesn't happen here as often, I think?

Depends on who you ask about Colonialism.

Raiseth said:
Also, this debate veers some ways from the thread, so we need to say something about cheese.

Hm... the issue with Brie talking to Olga is that Assassin is inevitably going to be in the room. Not from a combat perspective, but from a social confrontation perspective. Olga's got the self-hatred schtick going on big-time, it's why she got Elizabeth Bathory as a summon. But she got Carimella, the fictional vampire construct who embraces the 'monster' in 'innocent monster'. Carimella will argue for just diving deeper because they're damned anyway and any idea of redemption is a lie. Like Palpatine, but with less wrinkles and more cleavage.

Olga can absolutely be talked out of the War and into working with us. But we're the wrong person to do it, and the worst part of Olga's personality manifested as her Servant needs to be removed from the equation.

Impstar said:
Being a criminal itself doesn't mean they lose rights as people, but depending on context? That answer could change.

Impstar said:
And there we have it. The context. We did not, in fact, sneak up on her and start laying the psychological beatdown unprovoked. We didn't even, as you implied, just start breaking her when she was already down. We started the psychological beatdown when she was still trying her best to kill us, and for the most part stopped after she was down. I mean, yeah we did shoot her when Assassin called our bluff that wasn't really a bluff and tried to kill Rider, but I think that's a bit different.

So the context for removing human rights is 'trying to kill you in cold blood'? Imp, I'm not truely invested in one side or the other of this argument, but that's too poorly constructed to allay concerns you're being... well, ITGing.

Impstar said:
Are people saying that doing horrible things doesn't matter because everyone (except Shirou and to a degree us) is doing horrible things? That such things can be forgiven because everyone is doing them? That really bothers me.

No, it's that Keldin objects to you saying killing and torturing is morally inferior to brainwashing and destroying peoples' relationships and professional reputation. It's the difference between saying something's worse and saying it's all horrible.

Impstar · Jan 24, 2020

Always Late said:
So the context for removing human rights is 'trying to kill you in cold blood'? Imp, I'm not truely invested in one side or the other of this argument, but that's too poorly constructed to allay concerns you're being... well, ITGing.

Alright, I'll admit I worded that poorly. I'm trying to say that given the context (trying to kill us in cold blood), a lot can be forgiven in response (particularly since our worst actions were when she was trying to kill us and not after we'd downed her). I believe what we did falls in that category, and thus doesn't warrant an apology to her. I'm not trying to ITG.

Edit: Especially since, after a bit of research, an ITG tends to threaten other posters and I feel like I've been rather civil.

Always Late said:
No, it's that Keldin objects to you saying killing and torturing is morally inferior to brainwashing and destroying peoples' relationships and professional reputation. It's the difference between saying something's worse and saying it's all horrible.

But... some things are worse than others. Using an extreme example again, I feel like that's saying that you can't compare a pick pocket to a violent robber who's killed his targets before because they're both wrong. What we're doing is wrong and kind of horrible if you think of the eventual repercussions of it (as you pointed out, potentially destroying personal and professional relationships and reputation). But I feel like that's strictly better than murder. These people we've hurt, I'm sure that most of them will piece together any part of their life that we broke given enough time. And in the case that there are those who don't get back what we took, they're still alive. And as long as they're alive, they can make something new from their life.

Just saying that everything's horrible ignores a lot of important nuance.

Always Late · Jan 24, 2020

Impstar said:
Just saying that everything's horrible ignores a lot of important nuance.

You're kinda getting it, but missing some of the forest for the trees. This line:

Impstar said:
What we're doing is wrong and kind of horrible if you think of the eventual repercussions of it (as you pointed out, potentially destroying personal and professional relationships and reputation). But I feel like that's strictly better than murder.

This is what it revolves around. If you do something bad, you really shouldn't try to present yourself as doing something good. The idea is nobody does anything bad. So presenting a lesser evil as being better, period, is like going for the 'I'm not racist but' introduction. It's not just missing some critical nuance, it's taking a giant step in the wrong direction. So in making an argument about how to handle Assassin, it's vitally essential to nail that clear division between 'I am a good person' and 'I am a better person'. And you've kinda been missing that.

We're not a good person. We're not free of sin, no matter what side of the Olga argument one takes. The saying we have shit taste for falling in love with Medb isn't just bullying our girlfriend. It's turning a dark admission of ourselves into a punchline. That's a fact which can't be overlooked at any phase of the discussion.

Tiny_Dic · Jan 24, 2020

[x] You'll talk to Archer's faction while Emiya finds Assassin. He might have a better chance of convincing Olga if he finds her. Archer was going to be tricky given the whole cult thing but you'll have to shoot your shot.

Impstar · Jan 24, 2020

Tiny_Dic said:
This is hypocritical of me, but can we please take the morality debate to PMs before the mods roll up on our doorstep and yeet the door down? This happened last time with Don Dresden, and I wish not for it to happen here.

Eh, fair enough. I'll do that.

Hammers_Bjorn · Jan 24, 2020

AnonymousRabbit said:
Making herself a target for Archer while you got away. That's what she was doing. That's where the hell she is. That's her good excuse.

And we were nearly Pashupata'd twice in a row while she sits on her impartial ass. Honestly, if Martha was the designated Ruler, we won't have to deal with this kinda shit. Admittedly, that is because every participant will have a crippling fear of nuns cracking their knuckles over whimpering dragons, but that's beside the point.

Keldin · Jan 24, 2020

Impstar said:
We did not, in fact, sneak up on her and start laying the psychological beatdown unprovoked. We didn't even, as you implied, just start breaking her when she was already down. We started the psychological beatdown when she was still trying her best to kill us, and for the most part stopped after she was down.

Actually

AnonymousRabbit said:
Spears of light surrounded you before you circles yourself with shields. They pierced your defenses but they never reached you. You simply looked at her with the same glassy eyes.

I'd say that at least right about here the battle was pretty decidedly over, after we no sold her strongest attacks with our barriers.

AnonymousRabbit said:
She looked up before you struck her across the face with your pistol. Olga fell down on the ground before you stepped on her stomach.

"You must have had many chances. But you made all the wrong decisions. You are alone. Unloved, unwanted, undesired, a failure, a disappointment..." You continued as she looked up at you with tears in her eyes, "You are a waste of skin. Pathetic. It is all your fault."

You pressed your gun to her forehead and rested your finger on the trigger. Olga parted her lips as she could only look at you.

"Fa... Father... Forgive me. Father..." She gasped as her eyes turned unfocused.

"No. There would be no forgiveness," you replied as you looked down on her, "Not from your family, not from your father, not from the people you have killed. There will be nothing."

"Stop... Please..." Olga whimpered as her influenced over the artificial constellations faded and her hold on the spell disappeared, "Please..."

The heavy weight on your body slowly disappeared as you kept your gun aimed for the girl's head. Time to put her out of her miser-

But even the most generous interpretations show we absolutely kept torturing her once she was no threat.

Impstar said:
I'm not advocating torturing someone when they've been defeated, or even killing them after they've been defeated

Well thats weird cause this

Impstar said:
Considering she was doing her utmost to murder us when we were doing this, yes it was the right thing to do; I'd take breaking her psychologically over her murdering us any day. Heck, we didn't even kill her when we could have (still think we should have).

says otherwise so I'm not really-

Impstar said:
(by the way, since Olga was still supporting Assassin, I consider Olga to have not been defeated; she could have told Assassin to stand down but she didn't)

-oh so I guess we're doing that type of thing. Look, you're arguing that during battle it's perfectly fine to torture someone in a fight for their life. I'm arguing that there is no situation where that is acceptable, or that at the very least, Olga has certainly not done something that this is the proportional response to.

Impstar said:
It's fair game. Also, what Medb is doing is, in fact, not as serious as the varying degrees of mass murder many of the other masters are practicing.

I mean first off, you keep using the phrase "mass murder" but I'd be surprised if the victims even numbered in the double digits; Olga purposfully made it seem like Assassin needed more prana so as to lure Masters into her bounded field trap under the assumption she was weak. Given that we went after her specifically because the murders were noted by Ruler, and that after our first fight no more mentions were made from Ruler, it's unlikely that she continued so as to maintain a low profile.

Secondly, Medb's direct victims number in the dozens, if not triple figures. We're absoultly in the hundreds if we caculate people indirectly effected, and that's assuming our mind whammy on the police doesn't effect them in a negative manner in regards to their job. You say that it's "not as serious" but at what point does the sheer quantity of her actions outweigh the supposedly much worse murders? Are the people who lose their jobs or their relationships not worth even a tenth of a murder victims? What about the people whose lives spiral and end up homeless or just ending it all because of Medb's Charm?

Impstar said:
Are people saying that doing horrible things doesn't matter because everyone (except Shirou and to a degree us) is doing horrible things? That such things can be forgiven because everyone is doing them? That really bothers me.

Nobodies saying that. We're saying that it's throwing stones in a glass house. Brie has been characterized as not wanting to kill and showing a bit of a conscience in comparison to some other Magus, but primarily she cares about herself and her friends, and doesn't care to look too closely at the widespread effects her and her friends actions might have, either legally or morally.
Pre -emptive edit cause my ass is sloooow

Always Late said:
You're kinda getting it, but missing some of the forest for the trees. This line:

This is what it revolves around. If you do something bad, you really shouldn't try to present yourself as doing something good. The idea is nobody does anything bad. So presenting a lesser evil as being better, period, is like going for the 'I'm not racist but' introduction. It's not just missing some critical nuance, it's taking a giant step in the wrong direction. So in making an argument about how to handle Assassin, it's vitally essential to nail that clear division between 'I am a good person' and 'I am a better person'. And you've kinda been missing that.

We're not a good person. We're not free of sin, no matter what side of the Olga argument one takes. The saying we have shit taste for falling in love with Medb isn't just bullying our girlfriend. It's turning a dark admission of ourselves into a punchline. That's a fact which can't be overlooked at any phase of the discussion.

^This, so much this. I'll also admit that the whole

Impstar said:
If people are voting to visit Assassin and Olga to apologize, they shouldn't bother. They don't deserve an apology. Committing mass murder of innocents kind of destroys any moral ground they may have had.

style messages are what is really bothering me though. Trying to present your preferred vote as the morally superior platform bugs me because A.) Brie is (barely) a "good guy" but not really a "good person". As well as B.) to me at least it comes across as trying to guilt people into voting for your option which is a sore spot for me. The other stuff I'd just shrug and write as difference of opinions but that type of stuff tends to set me off when I'm better off just taking a step back.

Impstar said:
Eh, fair enough. I'll do that.

one of these days I'll post in a timely manner.
that day is not today.

Impstar · Jan 24, 2020

Well I try to stay practical and willing to change my perspective if people make convincing arguments, so I'll do my best to respond.

Keldin said:
But even the most generous interpretations show we absolutely kept torturing her once she was no threat.

And that's just me not remembering the scene enough. I'd argue that my interpretation is the most "generous" one, but I didn't remember that Brie took some unnecessary shots.

Keldin said:
-oh so I guess we're doing that type of thing. Look, you're arguing that during battle it's perfectly fine to torture someone in a fight for their life. I'm arguing that there is no situation where that is acceptable, or that at the very least, Olga has certainly not done something that this is the proportional response to.

Well to respond to the "that type of thing" part, let's say you have a remote control drone with serious firepower, and you only need to be able to talk to direct it. You're taken down, but the drone is not only alive and kicking, it's holding the person who took you down's friend basically hostage. You have the power to order the drone to stand down, but refuse to. In my perspective, you may be down, but you certainly aren't defeated.

To the second part of this, I feel there's more nuance to the situation than just "torture always bad, don't do it," particularly since psychological warfare can actually be good at deescalating conflict. If that can convince a person to stand down without either party having to die, I'd argue that it's not necessarily a bad thing to do.

Now that's in general. Specifically speaking, especially since you pointed out that we didn't stop when we probably should have, it's not a good thing. I mean, there's a reason when the "psychological warfare vs using our ranged abilities" vote came up, I voted for using range abilities (ironically, considering the general opinion of the thread on what happened, a fair majority of voters voted for psychological warfare), it's that if you can win without resorting to that, you should.

Keldin said:
style messages are what is really bothering me though. Trying to present your preferred vote as the morally superior platform bugs me because A.) Brie is (barely) a "good guy" but not really a "good person". As well as B.) to me at least it comes across as trying to guilt people into voting for your option which is a sore spot for me. The other stuff I'd just shrug and write as difference of opinions but that type of stuff tends to set me off when I'm better off just taking a step back.

I see. Trying to guilt people into voting for my option was not my intention. But even though I'm trying my best to stop this from getting personal on my end, it might be best to, as you put it, take a step back.

Raiseth · Jan 24, 2020

Kinda ironic that I started a morality debate by saying morality is subjective.

Or maybe, entirely appropriate instead?

Hammers_Bjorn · Jan 24, 2020

Keldin said:
But even the most generous interpretations show we absolutely kept torturing her once she was no threat.

A Master with an active Servant is, by definition, not defeated or even approaching 'out of the fight' until and unless both Master and Servant are accounted for. Psychologically breaking her in was a way to 'take her out of the fight' and killing her was to take out Assassin. We kind of messed up with not outting three round rapid into Olga's skull, mind, but everything else isn't 'torturing her once she's not a threat'. She still was at thst particular time, only not in a direct, 'star laser to the face' way.

Keldin said:
-oh so I guess we're doing that type of thing. Look, you're arguing that during battle it's perfectly fine to torture someone in a fight for their life. I'm arguing that there is no situation where that is acceptable, or that at the very least, Olga has certainly not done something that this is the proportional response to.

You call it torturing. I see it as making sure an opponent is actually defeated. Kind of like how putting a round to a seemingly dead enemy in a firefight to make certain it's a mission kill, but only with scathing words instead.

Keldin said:
Secondly, Medb's direct victims number in the dozens, if not triple figures. We're absoultly in the hundreds if we caculate people indirectly effected, and that's assuming our mind whammy on the police doesn't effect them in a negative manner in regards to their job. You say that it's "not as serious" but at what point does the sheer quantity of her actions outweigh the supposedly much worse murders? Are the people who lose their jobs or their relationships not worth even a tenth of a murder victims? What about the people whose lives spiral and end up homeless or just ending it all because of Medb's Charm?

There's something that makes what Medb did infinitely better that Carmilla, tho.

Medb Charmed them, yes, but she also banged many of them. So you can argue that its a form of economic transaction, an exchange of services if you will. The men gets to smash that Irish queen puss, and in turn Medb gets money. Its the basis of escort business, only that Medb's self employed and she might as well be the very best sexual partner alive at the moment.

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