So we're gonna be at Sunspear soon. They're our most trusted ally, so I think it's time for a powwow.

Get everyone together, Rhaegar, Ellis, Lyanna, Obyern, Doran, Jon, Uri, Anenue, Malora and possibly Baelor, Barristan, and Quellon. They all have pieces of the story, and have put some trust in us. Use this opportunity to create our anti-Other conspiracy and bring them all in the know so we're on the same page, and can act accordingly towards reinforcing the Wall and preparing for the Long Night.

Anenue is important here, as Anum-Las daughter she can vouch for us to Quellon that her mother knows. Do we know how much she already knows? And Obyern already knows part of the story.
 
@Vocalist do we have any IC knowledge on how to go about surreptitiously reaching out to the Velaryons? Stewards, friends, trusted knights of their house, etc. Someone who could act as a trusted go between to see if they are interested in having their ships flip to us, instead of sunk on the bottom of the ocean? Or at least, being able to delay their actions so that when we inevitably win we will be generous to them? Lord Velaryon seemed to want to ride both horses, so he might be approachable.
Lord Velaryon ain't flipping sides while his son is being held hostage at the Red Keep.
 
Rhaegar's Rebellion Map 2
So, map update time:

Changes from Map One:
- Sharp Point fallen to Loyalists
- Rook's Rest fallen to Rebels
- Moat Cailin fallen to Rebels
- Iron Islands shift from Neutral to Rebels
- Seagard shifts from Neutral to Rebels

1: Clawmen Army (Commander undetermined, possibly Ser Alliser Thorne)
2: First Army of the Westerlands (Commander, Lord Tywin Lannister)
3: Army from the Saltpans (Commander, Ser Brynden Tully)
4: Remnants of Harrenhal forces
5: First Army of the Reach (Commander, Lord Mace Tyrell)
 
It's interesting that Lord Tyrell mentioned a new child lord of House Peake.

House Peake is actually a relatively minor house now (though it used to be a powerful one in the past), and in addition the former Lord Peake was married to a Lannister. I suppose they rebelled because they hoped to get their old lands back, but it's still a bit odd. Defeating them shouldn't be a significant expenditure of strength for House Tyrell. The Oakhearts and the Florents are the main threat. That makes me think that House Tyrell has not lost a lot of men, but that many of his men are tied up besieging Brightwater and Old Oak. Also, looking at the map, Cider Hall is backing the King? I don't remember the Fossoways rebelling against Lord Tyrell. Where does that come from?

I wish we could do something like order the Sunglass fleet to harass the Velaryons ferrying troops over, but the QM has refused to carry out our orders to that group. I guess she considers those obviously bad orders and so is rejecting them. We can't do anything until our forces from Dorne arrive.

Updated vote looks like this:
[X] Ser Alliser Thorne A sour man, and harsh, but you have heard he is good at keeping men in order.
-[X] His orders to are join with Tywin Lannister at Maidenpool. If he believes his force capable of relieving the siege at Maidenpool before linking up with Tywin he may do so.
[X] Write to Kottar, letting her know it will be at least three more weeks before aid arrives. That's how long it takes to sail around the arm of Dorne.

For those who are voting, please note that if you want to order the Clawmen army to join with Lord Tywin at Maidenpool you need to specifically vote for that. Otherwise they will just do whatever and probably be crushed by the King's forces before Tywin can join them.
 
House Peake is actually a relatively minor house now (though it used to be a powerful one in the past), and in addition the former Lord Peake was married to a Lannister. I suppose they rebelled because they hoped to get their old lands back, but it's still a bit odd. Defeating them shouldn't be a significant expenditure of strength for House Tyrell. The Oakhearts and the Florents are the main threat. That makes me think that House Tyrell has not lost a lot of men, but that many of his men are tied up besieging Brightwater and Old Oak. Also, looking at the map, Cider Hall is backing the King? I don't remember the Fossoways rebelling against Lord Tyrell. Where does that come from?

For those who are voting, please note that if you want to order the Clawmen army to join with Lord Tywin at Maidenpool you need to specifically vote for that. Otherwise they will just do whatever and probably be crushed by the King's forces before Tywin can join them.
I could have sworn that the Fossoways were on the list. There must have been a reason I filled their area of the Reach in on the first map ... although that reason could be I misread something or was overzealous in coloring Longtable's region of dominion. My b. Future maps will reflect that more accurately, I hope.

Also, if Ser Alliser is given overall command, I have faith in his ability to manage things without too much micromanagement -- he's no Janos Slynt. That said, I don't think it's a bad idea to give that specified order. Going back to edit the vote now.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Vocalist on Aug 4, 2019 at 4:07 PM, finished with 21 posts and 6 votes.

  • [X] Ser Alliser Thorne A sour man, and harsh, but you have heard he is good at keeping men in order.
    [X] Ser Alliser Thorne
    -[X] His orders to are join with Tywin Lannister at Maidenpool. If he believes his force capable of relieving the siege at Maidenpool before linking up with Tywin he may do so.
    [X] Write to Kottar, letting her know it will be at least three more weeks before aid arrives. That's how long it takes to sail around the arm of Dorne.
 
I thought the Crack Claw forces were bottled up on the peninsula? How many men do they even have, I'm not sure it's wise to send them against the greater might of the Crownlands.
 
I thought the Crack Claw forces were bottled up on the peninsula? How many men do they even have, I'm not sure it's wise to send them against the greater might of the Crownlands.

I'm not sure how you got this impression, but that is neither the situation, nor their orders. Our loyal Narrow Sea forces landed at Maidenpool to attempt to releive the siege there. They failed, and retreated to join with the Clawmen at Rook's Rest. Maidenpool is at the northwestern edge of Crack Claw Point. They are essentially adjoining to Rook's Rest. Sending the Clawmen to Maidenpool essentially means they are marching away from King's Landing and the King's forces.

Furthermore, Tywin is also marching towards Maidenpool from Harenhall, which is why the Clawmen's orders are to link up with Tywin, which will prevent them from being defeated in detail.

In addition, Mace Tyrell is marching up the Rosewood and about to enter the Crownlands, which means that if the King's forces chase the Clawmen to Maidenpool, Mace will be able to besiege King's Landing without difficulty (hopefully cutting off men from Dragonstone).

More likely is that the King's Crownland forces will face Mace Tyrell, (while supposedly under the command of Mace, the Reach forces will effectively be under the command of Lord Tarly, one of the kingdom's best commanders), plus they are probably outnumbered, so the likelihood is that Mace Tyrell will win.

The next update at Sunspear is going to be very interesting. Not only will we see the results of these battles, but we will also probably see what the reaction is to the maester conspiracy. It's natural for humans to see patterns even if there isn't one. So a lot of them are going to be suspicious that the maesters were also behind the poisoning of the King and that they framed Prince Leywin. The Royces in particular will be grateful to us, and that should lock the Vale into neutrality. Between all that we are going to be winning the war on points, and that's before the Dornish and the combined Reach/Ironborn fleet enter the fray. Of course, the North will still have not entered the fray yet either, but with the mobility provided by controlling the seas that should not be to difficult to overcome.

@Vocalist Just be clear, we are setting sail for Sunspear right?
 
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Rhaegar's Rebellion, Part 6
You sail into Sunspear, and the Prince of Dorne is there to greet you at the docks. A stately man with the Martell dark hair and eyes, he looks at you somberly – but he is usually somber, so you're not concerned. "Welcome, your grace. Your presence is much appreciated," says your goodbrother.

"Elia's not here to greet us?" asks Oberyn.

"She would, but alas she's been called to the birthing bed early," Doran explains.

There is a small pause as you process that.

"What?" cries Oberyn. "Gods damn it, I never should have gone to Oldtown!"

"She's not due for another three weeks, at least!" you protest.

"She's still in labor, and has been for a full day," Doran says, trying to calm you. "By all means, you can–"

Oberyn takes off running.

"Oberyn! I haven't given you the bread and salt yet!"

"I trust you not to stab me in my sleep, brother!" he calls over his shoulder.

"Ugh," Doran sighs. Turning to you, he says, "Fine then. If you're willing to skip the formalities, you can follow Oberyn. He knows where she'll be."

You nod. "Lord Quellon," you order, "I give command of the fleet to you. Try to start loading troops if you can; we need to get these men to the theater of battle as soon as possible."

"So you're sticking me with all the work?" He chuckles. "I'm teasing. Go see your wife."

----

Elia is within the Old Palace, in a room Oberyn seems familiar with. The two of you stride in, surprising the occupants.

"Oh! Oberyn, Rhaegar!" Your wife looks tired, but she's still able to smile at you. "You have excellent timing."

"From our perspective, it seems we should have come here earlier," you complain, before leaning down to give her a kiss. She seems a bit warmer than usual. Perhaps that's simply the weather here?

"No, it's been a day of almost nothing. You would have been very bored," she replies. Then a contraction shakes her, and she grunts. "How was your journey?"

"Uneventful. I did speak with our…friends from the far North. But we can talk about the war later."

She nods. "Yes, that seems best. Qyburn has been a great help," she indicates the attending maester, deep in conversation with Oberyn, "and very understanding about my condition, but with what's happened in Oldtown I have difficulty trusting any maester too much. Congratulations on that, by the way. I'm glad you got it done now; without the war to distract people I'm sure there would be complaints about your unorthodox interventionism or abuse of power or something like that. And the Hightowers will die for us now. Ah!" Irritated, she waves at a cup of water on a nearby table, just out of her reach. You hand it to her. "Gods, why does childbirth still hurt? Nothing else does!"

"How often are your contractions coming now?" Qyburn asks. "I need you to count."

The contractions are coming more and more often, and Qyburn declares that she's progressing into the birth itself. He sends Oberyn to get certain medicines from his supplies, just in case. Your job, he says, is to stand by the bed and be a comfort. You get the sense that he would prefer you to clear the room, but you refuse to leave her side after what happened with Aegon's birth.

You kneel down by Elia's right side and lay your head on the bed, letting her twist her fingers through your hair. You hum a song for her, as her grip tightens, as her fist pulls on your silver. "Uagh!"

"Crowning," Qyburn says tersely. "Don't push yet, your grace. Not until the head is free." She whimpers, but her fist relaxes. She twists your hair anxiously between her fingers. "Now, push!" and you feel her hand gather into a fist again, squeezing with each push she makes. She's strong, stronger than she was. She can do this. You needn't be afraid.

"Here, hold this," you hear Qyburn say, after Elia's hand has relaxed once more. You raise your head and watch as the maester cuts the thick grayish birth cord, the area around him splattered with foulness and afterbirth. Oberyn comes to you then, a small gentle smile on his face.

"Look," he says, "a daughter."

"Oh," is all a breathless Elia can say as her brother lays the babe on her bare chest, but the light in her eyes needs no words to explain. Together your hands help the babe find the breast and take her first feeding. A pale little thing, eyes still closed; the wet strands of hair on her head are pure silver. And the magic you hear from her is pure ice.

"Is she healthy?" you demand of Qyburn.

"She's small," he tells you. "Not surprising, since her birth was premature. And pale. She might have a delicate constitution. But there are no striking problems."

"Good, very good." You're certain you love her already. You bend your head down to the little child and give her head a kiss. She doesn't react, but keeps rhythmically swallowing at the breast. She'll go to a wet-nurse soon enough, but some people consider it bad luck if a babe doesn't get their first feeding from their mother's own breasts.

Your third child, second daughter. What shall you name her?

[ ] Visenya
[ ] Elaena
[ ] Adara
[ ] Write-in

----

Although it was long and early, on the whole the birth of your third child was much less hard on her that Aegon's was. Nevertheless, it will be some time before Elia is well enough to attend meetings. You spend as much time with her as you can, following Oberyn's lead in doting on her and showering her with her favorite foods, but you also have a war to prosecute. So it comes to be that, the day after the birth, you gather with Prince Doran and all your advisors (save Elia) for a war council.

"News has come from the Crownlands," Doran announces. "King Aerys called his hosts to meet Lord Tyrell in battle. He also dismissed Owen Merryweather from his position as Hand, for cowardice; apparently the man was reluctant to lead any troops into battle himself."

"Aerys should try taking up a sword himself, then," Lord Quellon says dryly. "Has he even been in any fighting since the War of the Ninepenny Kings?"

"No," you confirm, "unless you count the Defiance of Duskendale. But he has always been quick to criticize people for faults that he has himself. I doubt he'll leave the city, though it would be a boon to us if he did."

"Is he so incompetent?" asks Baelor Hightower.

"No, he's not…stupid, exactly. But his paranoid and delusional beliefs lead him to bad decisions. I more meant that this war would be over if we could just capture him."

"At any rate," Doran continues, "Lord Chelsted is now the new Hand of the King. And the battle went reasonably well for our side, in that the king's men were forced to retreat, but Mace Tyrell lost more men than I would like. Apparently he was baited into attacking them on unfavorable terrain."

Oberyn rolls his eyes. "Well, he has men to spare. I'll not weep for him."

"The Reach has reserves, yes, but getting men where we need them takes time. Right now, Lord Tyrell's force in the Crownlands is one of our most important pieces in this war," Baelor tells him. Oberyn gives a gesture of acknowledgment.

"Lord Tyrell wrote that he intends to continue marching to King's Landing. He expects that if he does, the King will pull men away from the siege of Dragonstone to bolster the city's defenses," Doran adds.

Do you have anything to add to those plans?
[ ] Write-in

"What's the situation at Maidenpool?" you ask.

"I was getting to that," Doran says patiently. "First of all, a pleasant surprise: as you know, Maidenpool has been depending on smugglers and foreign ships for food. A fortnight ago, one such smuggler delivered a cargo that contained, in addition to food, two rogue Kingsguard."

"You mean Arthur and Jaime have reappeared?" you ask eagerly. Jon nods. Seeing as he came to Dorne with Elia, he's already familiar with most of what Doran is telling you.

"Apparently, Monford Velaryon helped them escape the capital and get to Driftmark, where they eventually found a smuggler by the name of Davos to take them to Maidenpool." Your goodbrother looks down at the papers before him, considering. "I recommend we keep quiet about how exactly they escaped the city, however. Velaryon's actions will probably invite harsh punishment from the king if they become known. You see, he also gave them the naval plans drawn up by his father, the Master of Ships."

"A brave move," you praise. "We'll need to reward him well, if he survives."

Doran nods. "As we suspected, the king is keeping most of his ships in the Gullet. But the orders revealed that a group was quietly detached, and sent to attack a target in Dorne: the castle of Bloodspill. Forewarned, we were able to man the castle's defenses fully and turn back the attack."

"That's…in Martell territory, yes?" Baelor asks hesitantly.

"Don't worry, I hadn't heard of it either," Jon replies. "It's in Uller territory, on the river Brimstone. It guards the way to the Hellholt. The seat of House Sphinx."

"Why would anyone be interested in that castle over the rest of Dorne?" Oberyn complains. "It makes no sense."

Doran nods. "Indeed. I felt the same way at first. Prince Rhaegar, you have a knight of House Sphinx among your retainers, yes? How did he react when told of his sister's treatment at the hands of King Aerys?"

"He was aghast. Worried. Vengeful. I saw nothing out of the ordinary in him."

"Myria Sphinx escaped death," Doran tells you, "because she revealed, under torture, that her house had been keeping a dragon egg ever since the death of Meraxes. Thus Aerys sent a force to Bloodspill to claim it. I have been in correspondence with the Sphinxes and we have decided this is the only reasonable explanation."

You are in shock. Across the table you see Baelor give a gasp of understanding. "Now the prophecy makes sense!"

"What does? Which prophecy?" you ask.

"A while ago, Malora had a vision of three dragons emerging from a sphinx. We thought that meant the Citadel, even though only two dragon eggs were recovered from there. But now there's a third dragon egg from House Sphinx…heh."

Lord Quellon sighs. "Let's not get distracted by intrigues and shiny things. What of Maidenpool?"

"Well, on one hand, the armies led by Alliser Thorne and Tywin Lannister were able to trap the besiegers and annihilate them. On the other hand, it seems the foreign ships have brought in a plague, and Lord Lannister has ordered the gates sealed again, though he is having food passed through."

"The salmon are just having a terrible time in this war, aren't they?" Oberyn comments.

"Harsh, but we can't afford to let the plague spread to our armies. I judge Lannister made the right decision," you say.

"Aye," Baelor says, looking haunted for some reason. "We of Oldtown know what it is to deal with a foreign plague. Hard as it might be to keep your people trapped in a dying city…history shows that it is necessary."

"In other news," Doran says, rubbing his face, "Lord Frey has sent a proposal, offering terms for his switching sides. He listed eight sons that he wants landed. And several more that you might chose to foster."

"Please tell me he's taking the piss," says a disgusted Jon.

"His first request was for Lord Paramountcy of the Riverlands," you tell him dryly. "I think he expects us to haggle him down."

"You'd think after six hundred years of nobility, the Freys would have learned to stop acting like merchants. By the time we bring him down to a reasonable price, this war's going to be over already!" Jon complains.

"Perhaps that's his plan," Oberyn muses, "declare for us right at the end of the war, so he won't have to put any effort in."

"Why go to the trouble of courting the Freys if they're going to be this difficult about it?" Jon asks. "They have, what, four thousand men?"

"And they control the only way an army can cross the Green Fork north of Harrenhal," Lord Quellon adds.

"And why do we need that crossing?" Jon replies. "Most of the fighting is taking place in the south part of the Riverlands. The only allies we have up north are the crannogmen, and they're best used right where they are, fortifying the Neck. Considering the horseshit they've served to you so far, Rhaegar, you can tell the Freys to fuck right off."

"Well, there's one thing you haven't considered, Lord Connington," Doran tells him. "Judging from the reports of the crannogmen, the Freys aren't putting their whole strength into fighting, possibly because they expect to change sides later. Thus, if the prince tells them to 'fuck right off', as you put it, they might actually start putting some pressure on the Neck."

How will you respond to Lord Frey?
[ ] Accept his terms
[ ] Continue negotiating for a better deal (Write-in)
[ ] Continue negotiating, but without any intention of coming to an agreement
[ ] Tell him you're not interested

"And for our final, and perhaps most important order of business," Doran says, "there is the matter of the troops here in Sunspear. We have twenty-five thousand men gathered here. I might have summoned more, but I did not want to leave the mountain passes undefended, in case the Stormlanders decided to end their neutrality. I've consulted with Lord Greyjoy and we will be able to fit them all on the ships, though conditions will be cramped. The only thing that remains is to decide on a target."

Where should your fleet attack?
[ ] Break the siege of Dragonstone
[ ] Duskendale
[ ] Driftmark
[ ] Saltpans
[ ] Write-in

Is there anything else you wish to do while your allies are still gathered together in Dorne?
[ ] Write in

And as the new year dawns, where will you be found?
[ ] In Dorne, taking care of your wife and child
[ ] Sailing into battle with the Dornishmen
[ ] Sailing to the Wall – you want an ice dragon!
[ ] Write-in
 
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I'm sorry about my disappearance. Life has been a little crazy and stressful recently. Next weekend is also going to be a pile of craziness (many visiting relatives), so I'm going to say straight out, not to expect another chapter for at least a week.
 
[X] Elaena
[X] Break the siege of Dragonstone
[X] Sailing into battle with the Dornishmen
-[X] Leave Barristan with Ellia
[X] Continue negotiating, but without any intention of coming to an agreement
-[X] Discuss offering a city charter with your advisors, if they think that would mean anything to the Freys.
[X] There's an opportunity with so many important people gathered. Discuss with Ellia and Jon who we can trust in establishing an Anti-Other conspiracy, to demonstrate magic and tell the whole story. Doran, Quellon, Oberyn, Uri, Baelor, Malora, Lyanna, and Barristan are the candidates. Anenue too, as Amun-Las daughter can vouch for magic and the supernatural as a whole. Jamie and Arthur will be brought up to speed when we reconnect.

I'm thinking take the pressure off home, then Driftmark. Or maybe Driftmark first and then Dragonstone. We should leave Barristan behind with Ellia.
@Vocalist can we make a write in to take this opportunity to establish an anti-Other conspiracy with Doran and Quellon?

The ice dragons will have to wait, we can't afford to go harrying off in a war, not into the Starks backyard. Unfortunately, I'm vague on who knows what. We've been pretty's loose with information security but I'm not sure to what level everyone is informed.
 
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Actually, maybe we should sail to Storms End to meet with Ned and personally speak with Robert. Maybe bring them in on the conspiracy, if Ned thinks Robert can be trusted? Demonstrate magic to him?
 
[X] Elaena
[X] Break the siege of Dragonstone
[X] Sailing into battle with the Dornishmen
-[X] Leave Barristan with Ellia
[X] Continue negotiating, but without any intention of coming to an agreement
-[X] Discuss offering a city charter with your advisors, if they think that would mean anything to the Freys.
[X] There's an opportunity with so many important people gathered. Discuss with Ellia and Jon who we can trust in establishing an Anti-Other conspiracy, to demonstrate magic and tell the whole story. Doran, Quellon, Oberyn, Uri, Baelor, Malora, Lyanna, and Barristan are the candidates. Anenue too, as Amun-Las daughter can vouch for magic and the supernatural as a whole. Jamie and Arthur will be brought up to speed when we reconnect.

I'm thinking take the pressure off home, then Driftmark. Or maybe Driftmark first and then Dragonstone. We should leave Barristan behind with Ellia.
@Vocalist can we make a write in to take this opportunity to establish an anti-Other conspiracy with Doran and Quellon?

The ice dragons will have to wait, we can't afford to go harrying off in a war, not into the Starks backyard. Unfortunately, I'm vague on who knows what. We've been pretty's loose with information security but I'm not sure to what level everyone is informed.
If we're making an Anti-Other conspiracy, shouldn't we at least wait till summer, when they'l be hibernating? Just to be sure they don't notice anything odd going on?
 
[X] Elaena
[X] Break the siege of Dragonstone
[X] Sailing into battle with the Dornishmen
-[X] Leave Barristan with Ellia
[X] Continue negotiating, but without any intention of coming to an agreement
-[X] Discuss offering a city charter with your advisors, if they think that would mean anything to the Freys.
[X] There's an opportunity with so many important people gathered. Discuss with Ellia and Jon who we can trust in establishing an Anti-Other conspiracy, to demonstrate magic and tell the whole story. Doran, Quellon, Oberyn, Uri, Baelor, Malora, Lyanna, and Barristan are the candidates. Anenue too, as Amun-Las daughter can vouch for magic and the supernatural as a whole. Jamie and Arthur will be brought up to speed when we reconnect.
 
Ohohoho, it seem we have a pure-blooded Other as a daughter... How very interesting indeed.

[X] Elaena
[X] Break the siege of Dragonstone
[X] Sailing into battle with the Dornishmen
-[X] Leave Barristan with Ellia
[X] Continue negotiating, but without any intention of coming to an agreement
-[X] Discuss offering a city charter with your advisors, if they think that would mean anything to the Freys.

I agree with LabAccident, we ought to wait until summer to ensure the Others don't discover our plans.
 
[X] Elaena
[X] Break the siege of Dragonstone
-[X] Write to Kottar with a rough idea of our plans and setting up a location near Dragonstone to send letters to so we can coordinate plans for lifting the siege.
-[X] Current rough plan is to sail to the Wendwater, join with forces there disembarking our troops. Smash the Royal fleet. Find local sailors to help us with landing possibilities on Dragonstone. Scout the enemy locations on Dragonstone in preparation to lift the siege.
--[X] While our fleet is securing the waters so that we can land on Dragonstone uncontested, our land forces can smash Lord Massey's forces.
[X] Sailing into battle with the Dornishmen
-[X] Leave Lyanna with Elia
[X] Continue negotiating for a better deal
-[X] Offer to land 5 of his sons
-[X] Imply that greater enthusiasm in fighting the war for us might increase that number.
-[X] Discuss offering a city charter with your advisors, if they think that would mean anything to the Freys.
[X] Write a letter to Lord Merryweather, inviting him to change sides, as he has come to learn the fickleness of our father's favor.
[X] Assign Elia and her court (Ashara, Lyanna, Anenue, Malora) negotiating with House Sphinx for the dragon egg, locating Aegon's crown (lost in Dorne by the Young Dragon), and developing options for setting up a magic school.


I agree with most of the plan. However I also agree with @Lab_Accident, that the Anti-White Walker Conspiracy can wait until Summer comes because then they will not be able to make inquiries.
 
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Great update! Interesting things happening.
Your third child, second daughter. What shall you name her?

[ ] Visenya
[ ] Elaena
[ ] Adara
[ ] Write-in

Hmm... I'd like to know what Pact she is the bearer of, as that might have an impact on what name to choose.

Visenya would fit the theme we have, with Aegon, Rhaenys, and then Visenya.


Adara is a reference to the Ice Dragon, and so would be fitting since she bears the Pact of Ice.

If she bears the Pact of Water, Nymeria might not be a bad choice.

"Lord Tyrell wrote that he intends to continue marching to King's Landing. He expects that if he does, the King will pull men away from the siege of Dragonstone to bolster the city's defenses," Doran adds.

Do you have anything to add to those plans?
[ ] Write-in

I don't see anything obvious, but let's think a little bit about what might be helpful.

1. Any effort to rescue our mother and younger brother? Monford Velaryon? The prisoners in the black cells?
2. Any knowledge of secret passages?
3. Any attempt to treat with anyone? Varys maybe?

"I was getting to that," Doran says patiently. "First of all, a pleasant surprise: as you know, Maidenpool has been depending on smugglers and foreign ships for food. A fortnight ago, one such smuggler delivered a cargo that contained, in addition to food, two rogue Kingsguard."

"You mean Arthur and Jaime have reappeared?" you ask eagerly. Jon nods. Seeing as he came to Dorne with Elia, he's already familiar with most of what Doran is telling you.

"Apparently, Monford Velaryon helped them escape the capital and get to Driftmark, where they eventually found a smuggler by the name of Davos to take them to Maidenpool." Your goodbrother looks down at the papers before him, considering. "I recommend we keep quiet about how exactly they escaped the city, however. Velaryon's actions will probably invite harsh punishment from the king if they become known. You see, he also gave them the naval plans drawn up by his father, the Master of Ships."

Interesting. Did we manage to destroy part of the Royal fleet, or did we just drive them off? Should we send someone to recover the Dragon Egg? Perhaps assign it to Elia and those we leave with her (assuming this will be Ashara, Malora, and Anuene. Perhaps Lyanna as well. If we want to leave a KIngsguard it should be Lyanna, not Ser Barristan. For a few reasons, first of all Ser Barristan is better in a fight, so if we are sailing to battle, he's the one we should take with us. Plus, while we would never use her that way, it does help to have the daughter of Lord Stark in a safe locations. If nothing else she might help us negotiate a peace.

Also, we need to see about recruiting Davos. We could use a good ship master who is loyal to us directly instead of those loyal to the Velaryons or the Greyjoys, or the Redwynes. Even if he only serves in our kitchen cabinet, he will be useful.

"Well, on one hand, the armies led by Alliser Thorne and Tywin Lannister were able to trap the besiegers and annihilate them. On the other hand, it seems the foreign ships have brought in a plague, and Lord Lannister has ordered the gates sealed again, though he is having food passed through."

"The salmon are just having a terrible time in this war, aren't they?" Oberyn comments.

"Harsh, but we can't afford to let the plague spread to our armies. I judge Lannister made the right decision," you say.

Rough times for Maidenpool...

"In other news," Doran says, rubbing his face, "Lord Frey has sent a proposal, offering terms for his switching sides. He listed eight sons that he wants landed. And several more that you might chose to foster."

"Please tell me he's taking the piss," says a disgusted Jon.

"His first request was for Lord Paramountcy of the Riverlands," you tell him dryly. "I think he expects us to haggle him down."

"You'd think after six hundred years of nobility, the Freys would have learned to stop acting like merchants. By the time we bring him down to a reasonable price, this war's going to be over already!" Jon complains.

"Perhaps that's his plan," Oberyn muses, "declare for us right at the end of the war, so he won't have to put any effort in."

"Why go to the trouble of courting the Freys if they're going to be this difficult about it?" Jon asks. "They have, what, four thousand men?"

"And they control the only way an army can cross the Green Fork north of Harrenhal," Lord Quellon adds.

"And why do we need that crossing?" Jon replies. "Most of the fighting is taking place in the south part of the Riverlands. The only allies we have up north are the crannogmen, and they're best used right where they are, fortifying the Neck. Considering the horseshit they've served to you so far, Rhaegar, you can tell the Freys to fuck right off."

"Well, there's one thing you haven't considered, Lord Connington," Doran tells him. "Judging from the reports of the crannogmen, the Freys aren't putting their whole strength into fighting, possibly because they expect to change sides later. Thus, if the prince tells them to 'fuck right off', as you put it, they might actually start putting some pressure on the Neck."

How will you respond to Lord Frey?
[ ] Accept his terms
[ ] Continue negotiating for a better deal (Write-in)
[ ] Continue negotiating, but without any intention of coming to an agreement
[ ] Tell him you're not interested

I'm leaning towards accepting. Lord Frey thinks he's bargaining sharply, but actually, I think it would help us to have more Freys in the North to serve as White Walker fodder... Maybe even grant the ones we really like land in the Rhoynar territories.

"And for our final, and perhaps most important order of business," Doran says, "there is the matter of the troops here in Sunspear. We have twenty-five thousand men gathered here. I might have summoned more, but I did not want to leave the mountain passes undefended, in case the Stormlanders decided to end their neutrality. I've consulted with Lord Greyjoy and we will be able to fit them all on the ships, though conditions will be cramped. The only thing that remains is to decide on a target."

Where should your fleet attack?
[ ] Break the siege of Dragonstone
[ ] Duskendale
[ ] Driftmark
[ ] Saltpans
[ ] Write-in

Dragonstone, we need to break that siege, then we can decide if we should join our forces to Tywin and Mace, or if we should consider a strike at White Harbor.

Is there anything else you wish to do while your allies are still gathered together in Dorne?
[ ] Write in

Well.... I'd like to know more about what the response has been about the Maester conspiracy. That seems like pretty big news, and I'd expect at least something from the Royce family.

And as the new year dawns, where will you be found?
[ ] In Dorne, taking care of your wife and child
[ ] Sailing into battle with the Dornishmen
[ ] Sailing to the Wall – you want an ice dragon!
[ ] Write-in

Battle with the Dornishmen. The morale will be helpful, and we need to be able to demonstrate to people powerfully that we are different from our father. Him hiding in the Red Keep while we go to battle, it's an important image.

@Vocalist So I have a whole bunch of questions, but I figure I should group them altogether here:

1: What Pact does our daughter bear? Fire? Water? Ice? Some combo? Nevermind, somehow I missed the statement of Pact of Ice on the first read through. Instead I'll ask this one:
1: What does Elia think about offering Lord Arryn a betrothal between his grandnephew Jon Arryn and our daughter?
2: Do we have any knowledge of the Red Keeps secret passages that might be helpful to Mace Tyrell?
3: Do we have any knowledge of who might be approachable in King's Landing? Either to betray the gates to the besieging forces, or to give us information?
4: Do we have any idea about how to approach Varys' network instead King's Landing to feel out his position, and possibly enter into negotiations (even if under the cloak that we are negotiating with the King)
5: Did we manage to destroy part of the Royal fleet, or did we just drive them off?
6: Has any action been taken to recover the dragon egg?
7: What are the military realities of the Dragonstone siege? Are the forces there being supplied by ship? Can we cut off their supplies and thereby starve them into submission without endangering our forces in a amphibious landing? Can we land our forces on an uncontested beach, and then march across land to fight the besieging army? Do we need to scout all of this? Do we have any sailors who know the seas and beaches of Dragonstone?
8: What so our advisors think about sailing to meet up with the Wendwater forces, smashing Massey's force (and/or force him to retreat into his castles), while our ships smash the Royal fleet, and cut the Dragonstone forces off? Then scouting the landing at Dragonstone to determine how to best relieve the siege?
9: Has Urrigon rejoined us at Sunspear? Or can we expect him to join us shortly? Before we sail?
10: Do we know if Davos is still at Maidenpool, with Tywin's forces outside the city, or where he went to?
11: What has been the response to the Maester Conspiracy being revealed? Do we know what happened to Maester Cressen at Storm's End?
12: In particular, how have the following people responded? King Aerys? Lord Stark (any response considering he is sheltering the Regicide at Winterfell)? Lord Baratheon? Lord Arryn? And House Royce?
13: Do we know the names of Lord Frey's sons he wants landed? Are they just his eight oldest after his heir?

If we're making an Anti-Other conspiracy, shouldn't we at least wait till summer, when they'l be hibernating? Just to be sure they don't notice anything odd going on?

Isn't it late Spring by now? Summer is basically almost here. Maybe something here is worth doing, though we ought to think about it carefully. What does any anti-Other conspiracy mean?
 
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My current inclination for a vote:

[X] Adara
[X] Break the siege of Dragonstone
-[X] Write to Kottar with a rough idea of our plans and setting up a location near Dragonstone to send letters to so we can coordinate plans for lifting the siege.
-[X] Current rough plan is to sail to the Wendwater, join with forces there disembarking our troops. Smash the Royal fleet. Find local sailors to help us with landing possibilities on Dragonstone. Scout the enemy locations on Dragonstone in preparation to lift the siege.
--[X] While our fleet is securing the waters so that we can land on Dragonstone uncontested, our land forces can smash Lord Massey's forces.
[X] Sailing into battle with the Dornishmen
-[X] Leave Lyanna with Ellia
[X] Continue negotiating for a better deal
-[X] Offer to land 5 of his sons
-[X] Imply that greater enthusiasm in fighting the war for us might increase that number.
-[X] Discuss offering a city charter with your advisors, if they think that would mean anything to the Freys.
[X] Write a letter to Lord Merryweather, inviting him to change sides, as he has come to learn the fickleness of our father's favor.
[X] Assign Elia and her court (Ashara, Lyanna, Anenue, Malora) negotiating with House Sphinx for the dragon egg, locating Aegon's crown (lost in Dorne by the Young Dragon), and developing options for setting up a magic school.

[X] Discuss additional potential marriage alliances that might be made, as a hedge against setbacks, and to secure the realm following victory. Has Doran considered any such marriage offers? Also ask Oberyn's opinion about legitimizing his daughters (as if we end up King we could make that happen). Be diplomatic in bringing the subject up.

Not completely sold on the Anti-Other conspiracy, but right now leaning towards it. Needs a little more structure though:

EDIT: Okay, decided to drop this for now, though leaving it here in case we do this in the future.

[] There's an opportunity with so many important people gathered. Discuss with Ellia and Jon who we can trust in establishing an Anti-Other conspiracy, to demonstrate magic and warn them of the coming war with the White Walkers.
-[] Doran, Quellon, Oberyn, Uri, Baelor, Malora, Lyanna, and Barristan are the candidates. Anenue too, as Amun-Las daughter can vouch for magic and the supernatural as a whole.
-[] One of the goals of this war will be to win it in such a way that the North will be able to hold the Wall. That's the true war, and we can't let vengeance cloud our path. One of the plans of the Others is to encourage humans to fight among themselves so as to weaken us for their assault.
--[] Lyanna would be a good source for helping us determine if sending Lord Stark to the Wall to take the Black can be an effective way to appear to be punishing Lord Stark for his rebellion, but to actually be strengthening the Night's Watch. How will he respond to that? How would Brandon, Ned, and Benjen feel? (and for that matter how doea Lyanna feel about that idea?) We want a loyal House Stark we can work with to build up the North defenses.
--[] Landing several of Frey's sons in the North would be a way to ensure the Freys have a motive to support the North in any attack by the White Walkers, thereby securing the route connecting the Riverlands to the North. Lyanna might have some ideas about what land would be best suited to put the Freys in that kind of position.
--[] One of the reasons the Others are planning to attack soon, is because magic power is increasing in the world, but humans have lost knowledge of how to use it, and so will be vulnerable. Suggest establishing a school to gather those with the ability and train them as much as we can. Because of it's closeness to the Isle of Faces, Harrenhall might be the best suited for this task, but you are open to other ideas. Malora and Anenue's opinion will be particularly helpful.
 
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[X] Adara
[X] Break the siege of Dragonstone
-[X] Write to Kottar with a rough idea of our plans and setting up a location near Dragonstone to send letters to so we can coordinate plans for lifting the siege.
-[X] Current rough plan is to sail to the Wendwater, join with forces there disembarking our troops. Smash the Royal fleet. Find local sailors to help us with landing possibilities on Dragonstone. Scout the enemy locations on Dragonstone in preparation to lift the siege.
--[X] While our fleet is securing the waters so that we can land on Dragonstone uncontested, our land forces can smash Lord Massey's forces.
[X] Sailing into battle with the Dornishmen
-[X] Leave Lyanna with Elia
[X] Continue negotiating for a better deal
-[X] Offer to land 5 of his sons
-[X] Imply that greater enthusiasm in fighting the war for us might increase that number.
-[X] Discuss offering a city charter with your advisors, if they think that would mean anything to the Freys.
[X] Write a letter to Lord Merryweather, inviting him to change sides, as he has come to learn the fickleness of our father's favor.
[X] Assign Elia and her court (Ashara, Lyanna, Anenue, Malora) negotiating with House Sphinx for the dragon egg, locating Aegon's crown (lost in Dorne by the Young Dragon), and developing options for setting up a magic school.

I have two questions for the collective:
- one, what's the appeal of Elaena's name? I don't have anything against it per se, it just seems to me like passing up great symbolic options, like Visenya (so we then have three children named [if not in the correct order] for the three conquerors of Westeros) or Nymeria, or if we really want to fuck with canon, Daenerys. ... or, since she's our little ice baby, what about naming her Lyanna?
- two, why leave Ser Barristan with Elia? It makes more sense to me to leave Lyanna, and for a multitude of reasons: Elia is already about as safe as she can get in Dorne, surrounded by allies and two protective brothers, so she doesn't need the best Kingsguard on top of all that; Sunspear is as far away from the North and Rickard's scheming clutches as Lyanna can get and still be on the same continent; there are a multitude of trained, talented fighters in Dorne, from whom Lyanna can learn more (especially since they don't have gender hangups like the rest of the continent); Ser Barristan lends us legitimacy that few others can, and he's one of the most dangerous fighters in Westeros besides the which.
... plus I wanna encourage the possibility of my crackship. I like Elia/Lyanna. Don't judge.

Let's keep negotiating with the Freys, see if we can either finish this early, or get Walder into a more acceptable position. I'm wary of completely dismissing them (that has a history of ending badly in Westeros) but he definitely needs to get talked down, and if we end the war before we can agree to terms, well, it's his own fault for not choosing the winning side sooner.

On the other hand, if it comes down to it and we're really in a pinch, we have another daughter now who represents one hell of a carrot. Walder can send a few (3-6, I'd say) age-appropriate boys to foster in the Red Keep after the war (so we can ensure they grow up do be decent non-Walder-y Freys) and then Baby Three can have her pick of the litter come marriage age. I'm not crazy about fostering a ton of Freys (or a ton of kids in general) or about betrothal arrangements of any kind, but they are the diplomatic bread and butter of the realm, and marriage to a Targaryen princess is a familial prize Walder cannot afford to refuse. So, if we end up in a situation where our back is to the wall and we need him, we have that option.
Lyanna would be a good source for helping us determine if sending Lord Stark to the Wall to take the Black can be an effective way to appear to be punishing Lord Stark for his rebellion, but to actually be strengthening the Night's Watch. How will he respond to that?
I agree, but we also need her insight on other things. Namely, not just if that will work with Rickard, but also how the boys (Brandon, Ned & Benjen) will take it. Getting Rickard out of Winterfell and into Castle Black, where he can be useful, will only be so viable of an option if Brandon will seriously oppose/be deeply resentful of the decision. We're going to need a cooperative House Stark, not just for the war to come, but also with the potential of Northman Freys, the eventuality that the Free Folk will come into the picture, and to be certain we don't have to keep watching our six for insurrection beyond the crannog.
 
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Daughter was mentioned to be ice. For that and the frail, delicate constitution, E seems the better name. Visenya is more fitting a fiery warrior.

Prefer kelp Lyanna with us because she's more trustworthy in matters of magic and the Others, which may become relevant as we deal with the North, especially when talking to her family. Also, want to give her a chance to gain notoriety and reputation in the war.
 
- one, what's the appeal of Elaena's name? I don't have anything against it per se, it just seems to me like passing up great symbolic options, like Visenya (so we then have three children named [if not in the correct order] for the three conquerors of Westeros) or Nymeria, or if we really want to fuck with canon, Daenerys. ... or, since she's our little ice baby, what about naming her Lyanna?
Daughter was mentioned to be ice. For that and the frail, delicate constitution, E seems the better name. Visenya is more fitting a fiery warrior.

Elaena is a traditional Targaryen name though. It's not fitting for one bearing the Pact of Ice.

The fitting name for an Ice Dragon rider is Adara.

- two, why leave Ser Barristan with Elia? It makes more sense to me to leave Lyanna, and for a multitude of reasons: Elia is already about as safe as she can get in Dorne, surrounded by allies and two protective brothers, so she doesn't need the best Kingsguard on top of all that; Sunspear is as far away from the North and Rickard's scheming clutches as Lyanna can get and still be on the same continent; there are a multitude of trained, talented fighters in Dorne, from whom Lyanna can learn more (especially since they don't have gender hangups like the rest of the continent); Ser Barristan lends us legitimacy that few others can, and he's one of the most dangerous fighters in Westeros besides the which.

Definitely. I don't get the desire to sail off to battle, and leave the best warrior behind and take the half trained Kingsguard instead.

Prefer kelp Lyanna with us because she's more trustworthy in matters of magic and the Others, which may become relevant as we deal with the North, especially when talking to her family. Also, want to give her a chance to gain notoriety and reputation in the war.

The most likely outcome of taking Lyanna into battle as our bodyguard is a dead Lyanna, since she is not nearly as well trained as Ser Barristan. Nor are we likely to be dealing heavily with Others and magic in this war. Better to leave Lyanna with Elia and task them with the Anti-Other preparations, and take the warrior Ser Barristan with us into battle.

As for treating with Lord Stark, that's not likely to happen until after the enemy is beaten. Lord Stark is probably with the Tully army, so that means sometime around when they are trapped in a castle after smashing their army. At which point there will be plenty of time to have Lyanna sail up and help us treat with Lord Stark.

Let's keep negotiating with the Freys, see if we can either finish this early, or get Walder into a more acceptable position. I'm wary of completely dismissing them (that has a history of ending badly in Westeros) but he definitely needs to get talked down, and if we end the war before we can agree to terms, well, it's his own fault for not choosing the winning side sooner.
[X] Continue negotiating, but without any intention of coming to an agreement
-[X] Discuss offering a city charter with your advisors, if they think that would mean anything to the Freys.

If you want to keep negotiating with the Freys, why are you voting for the "don't come to an agreement option," shouldn't you vote for the option to negotiate in good faith?

On the other hand, if it comes down to it and we're really in a pinch, we have another daughter now who represents one hell of a carrot. Walder can send a few (3-6, I'd say) age-appropriate boys to foster in the Red Keep after the war (so we can ensure they grow up do be decent non-Walder-y Freys) and then Baby Three can have her pick of the litter come marriage age. I'm not crazy about fostering a ton of Freys (or a ton of kids in general) or about betrothal arrangements of any kind, but they are the diplomatic bread and butter of the realm, and marriage to a Targaryen princess is a familial prize Walder cannot afford to refuse. So, if we end up in a situation where our back is to the wall and we need him, we have that option.

Why would we do that? If anything we'd be better off offering a betrothal to the young Jon Arryn rather than try to bring in the Freys. They are a complete waste of a royal betrothal. Also, right now they are willing to switch sides for much less. So why not just take the deal now?

I mean, what exactly is bad thing about this deal? Eight sons need land and we take a couple Freys as our wards. That's pretty cheap actually, and likely to cause even more problem for the Tullys and Starks, making the war end that much sooner.

EDIT: And actually... offering a betrothal to Jon Arryn makes a lot more sense than offering a betrothal to the Freys. Maybe after we raise the siege at Dragonstone, King's Landing is besieged, and it's looking like the King's forces are going to lose. Then make the offer, get those additional forces to make it clear. Perhaps with a promise to be merciful towards his friends Rickard and Hoster...

Maybe we should also discuss an Arienne/Renly offer with Doran. Not as our planned action, but as an option to have in reserve.

I agree, but we also need her insight on other things. Namely, not just if that will work with Rickard, but also how the boys (Brandon, Ned & Benjen) will take it. Getting Rickard out of Winterfell and into Castle Black, where he can be useful, will only be so viable of an option if Brandon will seriously oppose/be deeply resentful of the decision. We're going to need a cooperative House Stark, not just for the war to come, but also with the potential of Northman Freys, the eventuality that the Free Folk will come into the picture, and to be certain we don't have to keep watching our six for insurrection beyond the crannog.

Good point, I'll make that change.
 
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1: What does Elia think about offering Lord Arryn a betrothal between his grandnephew Jon Arryn and our daughter?
2: Do we have any knowledge of the Red Keeps secret passages that might be helpful to Mace Tyrell?
3: Do we have any knowledge of who might be approachable in King's Landing? Either to betray the gates to the besieging forces, or to give us information?
4: Do we have any idea about how to approach Varys' network instead King's Landing to feel out his position, and possibly enter into negotiations (even if under the cloak that we are negotiating with the King)
5: Did we manage to destroy part of the Royal fleet, or did we just drive them off?
6: Has any action been taken to recover the dragon egg?
7: What are the military realities of the Dragonstone siege? Are the forces there being supplied by ship? Can we cut off their supplies and thereby starve them into submission without endangering our forces in a amphibious landing? Can we land our forces on an uncontested beach, and then march across land to fight the besieging army? Do we need to scout all of this? Do we have any sailors who know the seas and beaches of Dragonstone?
8: What so our advisors think about sailing to meet up with the Wendwater forces, smashing Massey's force (and/or force him to retreat into his castles), while our ships smash the Royal fleet, and cut the Dragonstone forces off? Then scouting the landing at Dragonstone to determine how to best relieve the siege?
9: Has Urrigon rejoined us at Sunspear? Or can we expect him to join us shortly? Before we sail?
10: Do we know if Davos is still at Maidenpool, with Tywin's forces outside the city, or where he went to?
11: What has been the response to the Maester Conspiracy being revealed? Do we know what happened to Maester Cressen at Storm's End?
12: In particular, how have the following people responded? King Aerys? Lord Stark (any response considering he is sheltering the Regicide at Winterfell)? Lord Baratheon? Lord Arryn? And House Royce?
13: Do we know the names of Lord Frey's sons he wants landed? Are they just his eight oldest after his heir?
1: She's wary of making a betrothal when both parties involved are literal infants, but if it's a political necessity...
2: Nope. Ravana's stone magic would be very helpful in finding secret passages, but alas she is still in hiding.
3: Rhaegar has no personal connections within the City Watch, and Mace Tyrell doesn't exactly run a robust intelligence operation.
4: Not really, but if someone puts a sign up saying 'HI I WOULD LIKE TO TALK TO VARYS' odds are they'll find a mysterious note under their pillow the next day telling them how to get in touch.
5: Destroyed a couple of ships, the rest ran away.
6: House Sphinx still insists that they rightfully own that dragon egg as spoils of war. However they are willing to discuss selling it to you.
7: The forces besieging Dragonstone are being supplied by ship. Besieging the besiegers is possible, but would take a while. You don't know the condition of the beaches because your only source of info on Dragonstone is Kottar and she's trapped in the castle. As for knowledgeable sailors, please enjoy your free Davos Not-yet-Seaworth.
8: I suppose that could work.
9: He'll be there before you set sail.
10: Davos escaped the Maidenpool quarantine. If Rhaegar chooses to go to Dragonstone or Driftmark, he will conveniently be there to meet you because I like him.
11: Saving that for News of the Realm.
12: Ditto.
13: Pretty much.
 
6: House Sphinx still insists that they rightfully own that dragon egg as spoils of war. However they are willing to discuss selling it to you.
7: The forces besieging Dragonstone are being supplied by ship. Besieging the besiegers is possible, but would take a while. You don't know the condition of the beaches because your only source of info on Dragonstone is Kottar and she's trapped in the castle. As for knowledgeable sailors, please enjoy your free Davos Not-yet-Seaworth.
8: I suppose that could work.

Okay, edited my vote to include the more detailed plan for relieving Dragonstone, we want to take advantage of the free Davos.


Okay, so let's consider what would happen if we accept Frey's current offer.

Lord Frey's eight oldest sons after his heir are:

1: Emmon Frey, married to Genna Lannister. Rather incompetent and arrogant, but has a competent and clever wife. Plus rewarding him also rewards the Lannisters.
2: Aenys Frey, married to a Wylde (one of the principle Stormland Houses). Considered very clever, and a good commander.
3: Jared Frey, married to a cousin. Nothing impressive about him, nothing particularly notorious either (Frey standards).
We can skip Lucien Frey since he is a Septon
4: Hosteen Frey, married to a Hawick (house of Saltpans). A very strong fighter, but considered a bit dim.
5: Symond Frey, married to a lady of Braavos. A coin counter and spymaster. Would open possibilities of a trade between the Freys of the North and Braavos.
6: Danwell Frey, married to a Whent. A knight of average skill.
7: Merret Frey, recently married to a Darry. Was similar to his brother Hosteen, until a head injury made him unable to fight. In OTL became a drunk, but that hasn't happened yet.
8: Geremy Frey, recently married to a Waynwood (a powerful Vale house). A knight, not much is known of him because in OTL he drowns five years from now, but as his mother is a Crakehall is likely decently roubust.

That's actually a decent group of Freys. Sure they are crass, arrogant, and rude, but they have some clever people in there, some decent fighters, some skills in coin as well. And all of them (except maybe house Hawick) are married into rather powerful houses. Placing this group in the North would actually serve our purposes very well. Not only would it tie House Frey to supporting the North in case of attack by the Others, but it would also tie several of the powerful houses in the Riverlands, as well as houses in the Vale and the Stormlands to the North.

@Gino @Blackfyre @Aramis @Temes1066 @Marlowe310811

Can I ask exactly why you want to negotiate with the Freys, but not come to an agreement? What do we gain from that? I mean, the Freys tend to be dicks, and I don't like them, but considering our goals, what do we gain by throwing away any effort to gain their support? 4,000 men and key crossing are not worth giving them anything, but they are not nothing. Plus if Lord Frey begins to suspect we are not dealing in good faith he might put some actual pressure on the Reeds, which we don't want.

Additionally, if lords start to switch sides to us it could trigger an increasing number of lords to flip sides. Everyone wants to be on the side of the winner, and not be stuck holding the bill. The hard thing is to get the first lord to switch sides. Lord Frey is one of the ones more likely to do so. So lets' get him to flip, demonstrate we will be generous to those that reconsider their position, and see what else that shakes loose. Maybe then we can put out some feelers to Lord Bracken. Or maybe Lord Massey will think better of his position when we land at the Wendwater.

On the other hand, what exactly do we loose from accepting Frey's offer? His first request of a Lord Paramount position was nonsense, we don't want that. And betrothing our daughter to one of his children is a reward far beyond what he could hope to offer us in return. But what does it cost us to give his 8 sons land in the North?

It seems like a win win to me. We flip the Freys, we place 8 of them in the path of the Others, all with ties to other houses, and in so doing gain both an advantage in this war, and in the big war against the Others. Why are people opposed to it?
 
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