Had a funny thought about Immortal Awakening and Tribulations: Nameless' weakest point isn't his bodily strength, it's his mind. So if Tribulations are more than the typical lightning from heaven and can vary their approach based on a target, he'd be getting hit with an obscure and insidious effect, rather than a powerful one. Something to take advantage of his vices? E.g. instead of punishing him or trying to kill him, it would hit him with pleasure and indolence, like letting him achieve instant nirvana or something and robbing him of his motivation.
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Even Further Beyond [Complete]
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Pronouns
- Any/All
On the contrary, Absolute Mental Defenses are pretty good, since it means that any offer of an eternal Devaloka would only be working with Nameless's native spoiled nature, which he's already able to fight when it comes to matters of his survival and that of his friends. It's terribly shonen, but I think that if the Tribulation offered perpetual bliss, at the expense of Aurelia, Suizhen, Xiaoling, and everyone else's happiness or even life, he would refuse, albeit perhaps with tears in his eyes.
- Location
- BaWü
[X] Rain - Many months ago, a boy who was the Nameless Scion of Yong considered the construction a weapon for his bodyguard, a girl with eyes of blue whose sword-strokes fell like rain. Victim to indolence, it was never begun, nothing more than an idle daydream. The boy became a man, the dream became a memory, the memory became an ideal, and the ideal became a sword.
-[X] Go Even Further Beyond [10 BPs] - A smith puts down his hammer at the conclusion of his greatest work because he knows he will never again attain the heights he once reached. This option will permanently sunder the Grand Diagram, Forge of the Nameless One, and prevent its erasure or occupation by any other Diagram. Nor will Nameless' Artifice ever again be able to produce another weapon, or even a blade made in jest. Neither Truth nor All Paths can overcome this deficit, for he who wanders All Paths must be free to sacrifice permanently, and some sacrifices are irrevocably True.
[X] Annihilation
-[X] Go Even Further Beyond [10 BPs] - A smith puts down his hammer at the conclusion of his greatest work because he knows he will never again attain the heights he once reached. This option will permanently sunder the Grand Diagram, Forge of the Nameless One, and prevent its erasure or occupation by any other Diagram. Nor will Nameless' Artifice ever again be able to produce another weapon, or even a blade made in jest. Neither Truth nor All Paths can overcome this deficit, for he who wanders All Paths must be free to sacrifice permanently, and some sacrifices are irrevocably True.
[X] Annihilation
- Location
- New York
Wait a moment. Waait a moment.
All Diagram spells are named according to their inventor, i.e. Tyranshal's Potentiation, Baelixnaire's Deliberation, et cetera. Not necessarily the one that brought the spell to its apex - see Potentiation - but the one who first designed it. Those spells we devised ourselves rather than taking from the past get "of the Nameless One", i.e. Forge of the Nameless One. So surely the spell that sums up the fate of an Age will also have -
...There's something really fishy here.
All Diagram spells are named according to their inventor, i.e. Tyranshal's Potentiation, Baelixnaire's Deliberation, et cetera. Not necessarily the one that brought the spell to its apex - see Potentiation - but the one who first designed it. Those spells we devised ourselves rather than taking from the past get "of the Nameless One", i.e. Forge of the Nameless One. So surely the spell that sums up the fate of an Age will also have -
...There's something really fishy here.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's highly standard in the genre to have to content against mind-based tribulations alongside the physical ones!
Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Pronouns
- Any/All
The names of diagrams are fluff, IIRC. It's seem entirely possible to me that Nameless is naming that diagran High Hand of the Norns because he feels it needs to be something appropriately thematic, purely on an aesthetic level.
Rihaku
The Internet
Well, something like Might also opens up the ability to find a Reality Effect that can extract Zang Kong's populace, whether by Absorption or Battlesuit, then knocking him down past Dao Cleaving to see if he could be reasoned with then. You'd need some sort of effect capable of actually holding his populace, be it Reality or Artifact, but there are more options between civil discourse and outright killing him.
Speaking of outright killing, a concern with Distillation would be that literally everyone Embraced for multiple generations would be living in a world of cardboard. You'd do well to find more durable quarters before Embracing recklessly or at all.
That's if he was capable of refusal. We're talking about effects that have a chance of getting past his defenses, otherwise there'd be no point worrying about Tribulations. I'm sure that if it was a conscious choice that he'd be offered beforehand, he'd tell the Tribulation to go bother someone else. But it might not come to that. It might not even be a malicious attack. Nameless would just find himself in an altered state of consciousness or being that would be an effective dead end from our point of view but might fulfill all his wishes from his.
Yeah, but quite a few don't even bother with heart demons, going straight for 'how lightning-resistant is this guy'. That said, maybe we should make a Lightning Rod Artifact just in case. Unless Suizhen is up for the job?
Rihaku
The Internet
Not all of them, no.
He's not naming it. That's the spell's name.
Resolve the matter without Tribulations and you'd have all the time you want to prepare for Tribulations later!
Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Pronouns
- Any/All
But if the Tribulation can flout our absolute mental defenses, why wouldn't it be able to flout our non-absolute physical defenses?
- Location
- UK
Suppose we worked to hand out the Distillation as far and wide as possible. Ultimate might counter-acted by an almost level playing field. It would likely be a bad idea before defeating the Fates, as how many would cultivate for power when meaningfully advancing has become so difficult? The empire would likely be so changed as to be considered a different entity. After they are gone though, Nameless could bring about the death of the Age of Might and beginning of the Age of Inheritance.
Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Pronouns
- Any/All
Okay, so it's just a matter of the diagram's design natively incorporating Truth, and thus inherently having a True Name.
- Location
- New York
In any case, having thought on it, Rain EFB is the safest choice in terms of ensuring our victory. Suizhen gets the most power, to make sure she can beat the Fates and if necessary ZK, and the bodyguard effect avoids physical danger to us. Invoking our loss condition is still a way to lose, but Suizhen's rulership effect manages that too. The cost is potential, namely giving up a fair portion of our Artifice, but in terms of maximizing victory chances Rain is on top.
(If the Age ends, a new Age will begin, meaning that High Hand no longer generates the Ring of Might and no longer gives us immunity to death by end of Age - possibly it stacks to let us survive the end of one Age, though not the end of the second, but who knows. The Ring does allow us to copy Reality Effects, and gives us personal power, but there's about two people in the world capable of maybe killing us by normal means at the moment.)
The True Name being of the Norn is still a bad omen when we're in a struggle against the Fates.
(If the Age ends, a new Age will begin, meaning that High Hand no longer generates the Ring of Might and no longer gives us immunity to death by end of Age - possibly it stacks to let us survive the end of one Age, though not the end of the second, but who knows. The Ring does allow us to copy Reality Effects, and gives us personal power, but there's about two people in the world capable of maybe killing us by normal means at the moment.)
The True Name being of the Norn is still a bad omen when we're in a struggle against the Fates.
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Because the things behind those defenses are not equally vulnerable? It might get past both (otherwise we'll just let it glance off our face), but where our body is hardy and hale, our mind is... not necessarily weak per se, but possessed of some glaring vulnerabilities.
- Location
- Pindorama
Umm, we met Tyranshal, you know? He even commented on us knowing his spell and everything. The names are definitely things that can influence the story. So it's a valid concern. Ninja'd by Rihaku.
That's not what he said.
Do we need Might for that plan? It just seems to need a fitting Dao and a source of power. Can't we do that with Distillation as well?
Rihaku
The Internet
'Suppose we gave a supernova-eclipsing bomb to every single member of the world's population...'
Well, it is a spell of the Fate Sign...
The timing of such is that it would be in Nameless' favor, assuming the end of the current Age causes the Ring to disappear from his finger.
Distillation does not put you in a position where Zang Kong is at your abject mercy, since he would be stronger than Nameless and only .35 Stages below Suizhen.
'Later'. Of course. We all know how unbelievably eager Nameless is to risk his life in pursuit of power when nothing at all requires him to do so. He'd instantly jump at the chance to die a horrible death instead of doing something boring like partying the rest of eternity up with his friends (and wife).
- Location
- Pindorama
I guess the plan would be to suit someone with the appropriate Dao, transfer the people, then drop Kong below Dao Cleaving and allow him to redo his cultivation? What if his new Dao doesn't have the space for all those people again? If he's sane after we drop him Stages, there's no way he'd allow himself to be ruled by his Dao again, right?
Strange9
hdellaverson@gmail.com
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
Hmm. I supported annihilation with Rain, if only because at 16 vs 18 stages, Kong vs Kong-killing dao is a slam dunk. If distillation is going to win, negotiation seems like a much better tactic.
(Truth be told, I never really bought the utility monster + infinite multitudes argument. If nameless can at any point in the future create titans [and same cardinality <==> bijection] then what does counting up utils even mean? The whole premise of utilitarianism as an optimization game breaks down)
[X] Rain - Many months ago, a boy who was the Nameless Scion of Yong considered the construction a weapon for his bodyguard, a girl with eyes of blue whose sword-strokes fell like rain. Victim to indolence, it was never begun, nothing more than an idle daydream. The boy became a man, the dream became a memory, the memory became an ideal, and the ideal became a sword.
-[X] Go Even Further Beyond [10 BPs] - A smith puts down his hammer at the conclusion of his greatest work because he knows he will never again attain the heights he once reached. This option will permanently sunder the Grand Diagram, Forge of the Nameless One, and prevent its erasure or occupation by any other Diagram. Nor will Nameless' Artifice ever again be able to produce another weapon, or even a blade made in jest. Neither Truth nor All Paths can overcome this deficit, for he who wanders All Paths must be free to sacrifice permanently, and some sacrifices are irrevocably True.
[X] Negotiation
(Truth be told, I never really bought the utility monster + infinite multitudes argument. If nameless can at any point in the future create titans [and same cardinality <==> bijection] then what does counting up utils even mean? The whole premise of utilitarianism as an optimization game breaks down)
[X] Rain - Many months ago, a boy who was the Nameless Scion of Yong considered the construction a weapon for his bodyguard, a girl with eyes of blue whose sword-strokes fell like rain. Victim to indolence, it was never begun, nothing more than an idle daydream. The boy became a man, the dream became a memory, the memory became an ideal, and the ideal became a sword.
-[X] Go Even Further Beyond [10 BPs] - A smith puts down his hammer at the conclusion of his greatest work because he knows he will never again attain the heights he once reached. This option will permanently sunder the Grand Diagram, Forge of the Nameless One, and prevent its erasure or occupation by any other Diagram. Nor will Nameless' Artifice ever again be able to produce another weapon, or even a blade made in jest. Neither Truth nor All Paths can overcome this deficit, for he who wanders All Paths must be free to sacrifice permanently, and some sacrifices are irrevocably True.
[X] Negotiation
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Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Pronouns
- Any/All
This may be a little premature. Distillation only has a small lead, argumentation and omake-power may be the deciding factor in the vote.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Okay, finally home from work, though it may be casting stones into the void, I feel that I should give at least one good argument for my position before it gets torn to shreds.
The core of my argument boils down to "What does Nameless actually want in life, and how do we achieve it"
To that end? Let us look upon the choices that stand before us.
2,000 Word Essay and Analysis ahead @Rihaku , for what it's worth
Tyranshal's Distillation is a frighteningly potent step on the same path as many of the self-augmentation procedures. A legitimately insane level of optimization brought forth by the genius of the Thrice-Great bent to utter grandmastery of a field in his purview. The Further Beyond manifestation of this is already impressive, providing a full Cultivation Stage in all aspects, no small thing. But less focused upon is the augmentation to Potentiation. Where once a 100% draw would augment the impact of a spell the equivalent of a full Cultivation Stage--the Further Beyond Manifestation would create a spell that struck with force two Cultivation Stages beyond its means. Utility spells are augmented fourfold. This is monstrous when you consider how powerful the Nameless Scion's utility spells already are. How terrifying is a Cerebation effect with fourfold the strength? How fast could an already transcendent intellect and body go under a 16x speed multiplier from Haltsuphrect's Quickening?
Taking it Even Further Beyond? It just blows all of these to pieces. A Cerebation operates at quintuple the power, Quickening will take you to a 40x accelerator. An Unravelling can potentially balk the very magics of the Fates themselves. And yet many people are just focusing on the "Vampiric Horde" aspect, which is...
Well, yes, it's monstrously powerful, a way to literally print off less esoteric Titan equivalents. But how does that help Nameless with his actual, honest to goodness goals? Outside of physical strength and durability (Quite literally something that all of his greatest threat vectors can work around), it doesn't give him the esoteric might he'd need to bring Kong to battle and win, as in a battle between experts of comparable Cultivation--the more skilled fighter tends to win.
And it would be strange for the Living Embodiment of the Age of Might to be a poor fighter. Certainly he can be expected to be superior to Nameless--who has always scorned learning to fight in favor of simply winning without struggle.
It might be able to defeat the Fates through sheer force of arm, but Kong remains an active threat who we can't quite be sure we can bring to heel. Furthermore, overuse of the "Create Vampire" effect gives far to many opportunities for a known researcher like Kong to study them and develop personal upgrades accordingly. Let alone any residual bullshit the Heroine might have left--and we can't even be absolutely sure we'll actually kill the Fates by assaulting Heaven--even if we can defeat them, if they just get discorporeated and reincarnate somewhere else without consequence (Like, say, if they're Immortals, but not limited to this), then we haven't actually solved our most pressing issue of surviving the age.
And frankly, there's a worrying possibility that overuse of this will automatically manifest an Age of Blood--which if we haven't disarmed the Nameless Prince's killswitch by then, is an automatic dead end. Even dismissing that though? I'm not entirely certain Nameless will be able to be happy in this environment--the only ones who we could trust to uplift to this level are his immediate cohorts and possibly elves--and while the Loyalty compulsion is strong, it's not quite absolute.
And that's a very dangerous distinction to make.
Finally, while it's not a high priority, the Blood Ascension requires the Necromancer's assistance. He is likely to charge a dire price for using it on people we actually care about and want to bring up, because he's a fucking prick that way--exactly because Nameless would probably do the same to someone else in a similar boat.
As powerful as the Distillation is, I do not feel it is a path that will lead Nameless to much happiness.
I have stated before that I favor Rain, and this hasn't changed even after my extensive meditations while driving today. It calls back to one of the longer running plot threads of the game--the constant jokes that we'd make Suzhen a peerless sword--and finally makes it a reality. The Further Beyond manifestation of this is what you might expect from a weapon meant to wage war on a trans-titanic scale, granting our strongest defender battle strength equal to 1.25 stages on Nameless' own, as well as the formidable esoteric benefits provided by the perfected Ego Barrier, Organ Refining, and Soul Chrysalis powers. A Perfect Immunity to anything that would cause her to fail at being a bodyguard is no small thing either, given the scarcity of Absolute Effects.
But, as always, to go Even Further Beyond transcends the merely good and becomes myth.
At the cost of rendering forever inert the tool that the Nameless Prince was granted on the whim of the Fates--a toy they granted him "On the House" in their confidence--t creates a sword beyond swords, a transcendent divider that knows no limits. It can cleave skies, stars, and natural laws with the same ease an ordinary blade can sever flesh. Suzhen is freed from the shackles of the Dao--granted a Path of great freedom and flexibility, as well as to have Gone Further Beyond in every single stage of Cultivation before Titanic Ascension
In this case, we have--for all practical intents and purposes--created the Ultimate Titan, a Sword that Cleaves the Cosmos. And it scales accordingly no matter how far Nameless grows.
Beyond that? We get a mutually unbreakable loyalty to one another--the Wise Empress and her sorcerer-vizier. She cannot be turned against us, nor can we be driven against her in turn. For all intents and purposes, we've put an honest to goodness Paladin in position of ultimate power, and granted her the thumbs up and ability to genuinely make the world a better place.
And in doing so? Nameless is freed. The Fates cannot stand against the Swordmaiden in her full glory--the Elder Beast of Reason will submit or be destroyed by the creature he wronged in his calculus. The Age of Might will last for eternity, content that it has an invincible guardian who rules wisely and well. And most importantly? Nameless is free to kick back and be a useless NEET studying magical interactions and exploring Immortal Cultivation without needing to fear the vagaries of hateful gods. A most equitable trade for a hammer he's already largely traded in for a Scepter after all, and it's not like he's lost his ability in Artifice--or the potential to exercise Naturalism now that he has time and leisure after all--it just is slower and less setting breaking than it was before.
But with Immortal Ascension on the horizon, with the tantalizing glimpses of the Logos beyond the Diagram we've already seen--does he need to be able to churn out epic artifacts on a monthly basis? Does he need a weapon greater than the Empress he created, or the Scepter he wields? No, I don't feel he does.
And finally, there's the High Hand of the Norn. Straight up executing a KALI-MA on the beating heart of the Fates and wringing from gossamer potential the Ring of the Age. Surrendering all of our knowledge, all of our studies, and bending it all to the cause of Might. And Might he recieves in this case--his Physical, Mental, and Spiritual Power all raise by three stages--enough for a common man to reach the height of Soul Chrysalis, and even a mere Dao Cleaving expert given the chance to touch upon the realm of a Titan. Schemes and tricks are crushed under the uncaring gravity of Might, as its first lesson is "To be Strong is to be Righteous, and favored by the heavens. No weaker hand can be raised against me". It doesn't require awareness of the effect, just to know that the Master would consider it undesirable. It provides a torrent of the Power of All and Nothingness, uncaring about what realities one might have entered. The Ring of Truth enables the Diagram--and the Diagram summons forth the Ring of Might. In this synergy is one made Twice Great throughout all of the unending cosmos.
And of course, the cherry on the already absurd sundae that is the High Hand? Any Reality Effect you've crushed, is something you can reverse engineer and employ for yourself, for it is the right of Might to take whatever it pleases from those it has conquered.
But Might is not perfect, it has flaws--chief among them the fact that Might doesn't care about feelings, about ideals, or about anything other than its own propagation and exercise. The Ring of Truth as we have seen is unabashedly a good thing--the Ring of Might? Not so much.
And there's a good reason for this too.
Old words, from an old post, but there is a lesson involved in this. To call forth a Ring before an Age has truly died is to invoke Doom upon its scions. The greed and avarice of Might's Scions is formidable to begin with. But here is a treasure of incalculable worth, that any Cultivator--should they have the cunning and ability to seize it--can become the strongest. It grants unparalleled ego, and amplifies the worst traits of an already aggressive and hostile people. To do this while Titans still work the earth risks breaking the world itself under the weight of their magnified greed.
Oh how the Diagram Magi would have raged to collect the Ring of Truth. For to hold it is to hold the dream they all aspired to in their hand. They would respect the holder, yes--but they would always seek to claim the right to the pinnacle of their Art for themselves. And for all that the Truth is not inherently a thing of war--it can wage it with an uncounted sharpness. We've already seen even the humble Mordant Fire becomes a functionally absolute attack, bypassing all defenses to scorch away that it touches. To imbue a War Spell with Truth is to create a power that even Might must crumble before.
So, yes, such a temptation is something liable to tear the world asunder in its wake. Perhaps Nameless would survive--after all, he is already grotesquely powerful--he could simply crush any claimants?
But would there be anything left but cosmic dust when the smoke clears? With the few people he cared about being among the uncounted dead?
No, Might has never cared about being happy, about being satisfied. For all that it is the route that wins the battle ahead of him, it's the one least True to Nameless as a person. Yes, he always understood that a certain degree of Might is required to get someone to listen to you, but he has never cared about Might for its own sake.
Little wonder that it bars the way to becoming an Immortal. To be Immortal is to be True to oneself--even in the face of uncounted tribulation--a theme that's pretty well shared throughout the literature as a whole, after all, one needs not be good or bad to pass Immortal Tribulation, merely to have made suitable preparations and have a firm grasp on their own heart. However, to manifest the Ring of Might here in this final hour? To accept that Truth merely exists to be the midwife of Might and to be cast aside for lacking inherent beauty in itself? It's little wonder that the mysterious path that showed itself when we touched Truth for the first time is forever barred to us for this act.
And putting aside flowery tones and whatnot? It feels to me like an uncounted waste to invalidate the vote to set on this path in the first place because we were offered a shiny of great power. People surrendered the fucking vaults so that they could get Titanic gimmicks without setting aside the path to Immortality. We already have the power of a Titan while being on the path of the Immortal. To be a double Titan is just redundant when you could transcend such things and walk all the paths you want to instead.
Hrm, that went on for quite a while, but maybe it'll have a non-trivial impact on the outcome here.
The core of my argument boils down to "What does Nameless actually want in life, and how do we achieve it"
To that end? Let us look upon the choices that stand before us.
2,000 Word Essay and Analysis ahead @Rihaku , for what it's worth
Tyranshal's Distillation is a frighteningly potent step on the same path as many of the self-augmentation procedures. A legitimately insane level of optimization brought forth by the genius of the Thrice-Great bent to utter grandmastery of a field in his purview. The Further Beyond manifestation of this is already impressive, providing a full Cultivation Stage in all aspects, no small thing. But less focused upon is the augmentation to Potentiation. Where once a 100% draw would augment the impact of a spell the equivalent of a full Cultivation Stage--the Further Beyond Manifestation would create a spell that struck with force two Cultivation Stages beyond its means. Utility spells are augmented fourfold. This is monstrous when you consider how powerful the Nameless Scion's utility spells already are. How terrifying is a Cerebation effect with fourfold the strength? How fast could an already transcendent intellect and body go under a 16x speed multiplier from Haltsuphrect's Quickening?
Taking it Even Further Beyond? It just blows all of these to pieces. A Cerebation operates at quintuple the power, Quickening will take you to a 40x accelerator. An Unravelling can potentially balk the very magics of the Fates themselves. And yet many people are just focusing on the "Vampiric Horde" aspect, which is...
Well, yes, it's monstrously powerful, a way to literally print off less esoteric Titan equivalents. But how does that help Nameless with his actual, honest to goodness goals? Outside of physical strength and durability (Quite literally something that all of his greatest threat vectors can work around), it doesn't give him the esoteric might he'd need to bring Kong to battle and win, as in a battle between experts of comparable Cultivation--the more skilled fighter tends to win.
And it would be strange for the Living Embodiment of the Age of Might to be a poor fighter. Certainly he can be expected to be superior to Nameless--who has always scorned learning to fight in favor of simply winning without struggle.
It might be able to defeat the Fates through sheer force of arm, but Kong remains an active threat who we can't quite be sure we can bring to heel. Furthermore, overuse of the "Create Vampire" effect gives far to many opportunities for a known researcher like Kong to study them and develop personal upgrades accordingly. Let alone any residual bullshit the Heroine might have left--and we can't even be absolutely sure we'll actually kill the Fates by assaulting Heaven--even if we can defeat them, if they just get discorporeated and reincarnate somewhere else without consequence (Like, say, if they're Immortals, but not limited to this), then we haven't actually solved our most pressing issue of surviving the age.
And frankly, there's a worrying possibility that overuse of this will automatically manifest an Age of Blood--which if we haven't disarmed the Nameless Prince's killswitch by then, is an automatic dead end. Even dismissing that though? I'm not entirely certain Nameless will be able to be happy in this environment--the only ones who we could trust to uplift to this level are his immediate cohorts and possibly elves--and while the Loyalty compulsion is strong, it's not quite absolute.
And that's a very dangerous distinction to make.
Finally, while it's not a high priority, the Blood Ascension requires the Necromancer's assistance. He is likely to charge a dire price for using it on people we actually care about and want to bring up, because he's a fucking prick that way--exactly because Nameless would probably do the same to someone else in a similar boat.
As powerful as the Distillation is, I do not feel it is a path that will lead Nameless to much happiness.
I have stated before that I favor Rain, and this hasn't changed even after my extensive meditations while driving today. It calls back to one of the longer running plot threads of the game--the constant jokes that we'd make Suzhen a peerless sword--and finally makes it a reality. The Further Beyond manifestation of this is what you might expect from a weapon meant to wage war on a trans-titanic scale, granting our strongest defender battle strength equal to 1.25 stages on Nameless' own, as well as the formidable esoteric benefits provided by the perfected Ego Barrier, Organ Refining, and Soul Chrysalis powers. A Perfect Immunity to anything that would cause her to fail at being a bodyguard is no small thing either, given the scarcity of Absolute Effects.
But, as always, to go Even Further Beyond transcends the merely good and becomes myth.
At the cost of rendering forever inert the tool that the Nameless Prince was granted on the whim of the Fates--a toy they granted him "On the House" in their confidence--t creates a sword beyond swords, a transcendent divider that knows no limits. It can cleave skies, stars, and natural laws with the same ease an ordinary blade can sever flesh. Suzhen is freed from the shackles of the Dao--granted a Path of great freedom and flexibility, as well as to have Gone Further Beyond in every single stage of Cultivation before Titanic Ascension
In this case, we have--for all practical intents and purposes--created the Ultimate Titan, a Sword that Cleaves the Cosmos. And it scales accordingly no matter how far Nameless grows.
Beyond that? We get a mutually unbreakable loyalty to one another--the Wise Empress and her sorcerer-vizier. She cannot be turned against us, nor can we be driven against her in turn. For all intents and purposes, we've put an honest to goodness Paladin in position of ultimate power, and granted her the thumbs up and ability to genuinely make the world a better place.
And in doing so? Nameless is freed. The Fates cannot stand against the Swordmaiden in her full glory--the Elder Beast of Reason will submit or be destroyed by the creature he wronged in his calculus. The Age of Might will last for eternity, content that it has an invincible guardian who rules wisely and well. And most importantly? Nameless is free to kick back and be a useless NEET studying magical interactions and exploring Immortal Cultivation without needing to fear the vagaries of hateful gods. A most equitable trade for a hammer he's already largely traded in for a Scepter after all, and it's not like he's lost his ability in Artifice--or the potential to exercise Naturalism now that he has time and leisure after all--it just is slower and less setting breaking than it was before.
But with Immortal Ascension on the horizon, with the tantalizing glimpses of the Logos beyond the Diagram we've already seen--does he need to be able to churn out epic artifacts on a monthly basis? Does he need a weapon greater than the Empress he created, or the Scepter he wields? No, I don't feel he does.
And finally, there's the High Hand of the Norn. Straight up executing a KALI-MA on the beating heart of the Fates and wringing from gossamer potential the Ring of the Age. Surrendering all of our knowledge, all of our studies, and bending it all to the cause of Might. And Might he recieves in this case--his Physical, Mental, and Spiritual Power all raise by three stages--enough for a common man to reach the height of Soul Chrysalis, and even a mere Dao Cleaving expert given the chance to touch upon the realm of a Titan. Schemes and tricks are crushed under the uncaring gravity of Might, as its first lesson is "To be Strong is to be Righteous, and favored by the heavens. No weaker hand can be raised against me". It doesn't require awareness of the effect, just to know that the Master would consider it undesirable. It provides a torrent of the Power of All and Nothingness, uncaring about what realities one might have entered. The Ring of Truth enables the Diagram--and the Diagram summons forth the Ring of Might. In this synergy is one made Twice Great throughout all of the unending cosmos.
And of course, the cherry on the already absurd sundae that is the High Hand? Any Reality Effect you've crushed, is something you can reverse engineer and employ for yourself, for it is the right of Might to take whatever it pleases from those it has conquered.
But Might is not perfect, it has flaws--chief among them the fact that Might doesn't care about feelings, about ideals, or about anything other than its own propagation and exercise. The Ring of Truth as we have seen is unabashedly a good thing--the Ring of Might? Not so much.
And there's a good reason for this too.
The Forge of Destiny said:
Old words, from an old post, but there is a lesson involved in this. To call forth a Ring before an Age has truly died is to invoke Doom upon its scions. The greed and avarice of Might's Scions is formidable to begin with. But here is a treasure of incalculable worth, that any Cultivator--should they have the cunning and ability to seize it--can become the strongest. It grants unparalleled ego, and amplifies the worst traits of an already aggressive and hostile people. To do this while Titans still work the earth risks breaking the world itself under the weight of their magnified greed.
Oh how the Diagram Magi would have raged to collect the Ring of Truth. For to hold it is to hold the dream they all aspired to in their hand. They would respect the holder, yes--but they would always seek to claim the right to the pinnacle of their Art for themselves. And for all that the Truth is not inherently a thing of war--it can wage it with an uncounted sharpness. We've already seen even the humble Mordant Fire becomes a functionally absolute attack, bypassing all defenses to scorch away that it touches. To imbue a War Spell with Truth is to create a power that even Might must crumble before.
So, yes, such a temptation is something liable to tear the world asunder in its wake. Perhaps Nameless would survive--after all, he is already grotesquely powerful--he could simply crush any claimants?
But would there be anything left but cosmic dust when the smoke clears? With the few people he cared about being among the uncounted dead?
No, Might has never cared about being happy, about being satisfied. For all that it is the route that wins the battle ahead of him, it's the one least True to Nameless as a person. Yes, he always understood that a certain degree of Might is required to get someone to listen to you, but he has never cared about Might for its own sake.
Little wonder that it bars the way to becoming an Immortal. To be Immortal is to be True to oneself--even in the face of uncounted tribulation--a theme that's pretty well shared throughout the literature as a whole, after all, one needs not be good or bad to pass Immortal Tribulation, merely to have made suitable preparations and have a firm grasp on their own heart. However, to manifest the Ring of Might here in this final hour? To accept that Truth merely exists to be the midwife of Might and to be cast aside for lacking inherent beauty in itself? It's little wonder that the mysterious path that showed itself when we touched Truth for the first time is forever barred to us for this act.
And putting aside flowery tones and whatnot? It feels to me like an uncounted waste to invalidate the vote to set on this path in the first place because we were offered a shiny of great power. People surrendered the fucking vaults so that they could get Titanic gimmicks without setting aside the path to Immortality. We already have the power of a Titan while being on the path of the Immortal. To be a double Titan is just redundant when you could transcend such things and walk all the paths you want to instead.
Hrm, that went on for quite a while, but maybe it'll have a non-trivial impact on the outcome here.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Yeah, but I'm kinda curious why he decides to bring the goddess of Fate up as the naming convention for his insta-win button, considering he's actually fighting the gods of Fate right at this moment.
Maybe he's a troll.
Yeah, probably the troll thing.
