Our fictional gens is one too, seeing as we claim descent from one of Romulus' bodyguards, right?

I think in the who's who in the threadmarks a few of them were described as... poison, wasn't it?
*coughClodiuscough*, *coughClodiacough*

All the good it did us in the end.:p

The gens Cingulla, while ancient, is not counted among the gentes maiores. The Great Families are those who have a consul elected from among their ranks not a few times a generation, but a few times a decade. In every election you care to name, there's probably a Claudian or a Flavian running in it. Name a powerful position, and a member of the Great Families has held it twenty times over, at the least.

For an American analogue, think the Kennedys or the Clintons or the Bushes, if they were all several centuries old and had hundreds of members.
 
Finally, here's the hand-counted vote tally (with the built-in vote tally below -- I set it to count 'by line' and look for any vote with a 'Plan' in it).
I can't help but wonder if it would help if the plan makers used the X only for the name of the Plan and left all the other brackets empty. I believe that used to work to cut down on the tally, but they might've changed that.

[X] Plan Publicola
[X] Plan Publicola Plus
 
He was offered a chance to essentially turn the First Triumvirate into a Quadrumvirate, but, despite realising that he was being offered "a very close alliance with Pompey, and if I want, with Caesar as well, and a reconciliation with my enemies, peace with the mob and security in my old age," refused it in one of his occasional fits of courageous principle. (The refusal, incidentally, lead to Pompey and Caesar turning Publius Claudius Pulcher into Clodius and letting him entirely off the leash.)

While we're on the topic of waifus, as @Nurgle points out, Julia Minor is a pretty good option - her ancestry is absolutely impeccable, her living family has ties to both sides of the civil war (I've gone into the tangled web of Caesar's ties to Marius and Sulla before) but is not quite prestigious/wealthy enough to turn their noses up at us, and it ensures that Caesar won't sleep with our wife. On the downside, she won't have much of a dowry (unless Marius chips in, which has complications of its own), a living Marius makes her much more attractive in the marriage market, it draws us into Caesar's orbit, and there's a non-zero chance that a hypothetical victorious Sulla would tell us to divorce her or face proscription. Oh, and it butterflies Octavian, which may be a plus or a minus depending on one's own point of view.

There are a handful of other appropriately aged young Roman noblewomen I can think of, but they're all some combination of already wed, above our station as things stand, or heavily optimate/Sullan aligned. (Aemilia Scaura may be all three.)

Anyway, a consideration for the future.

I'd have thought you'd be more protective of dear young Julia, Caesar. But I suppose a Caesar for a bride wouldn't be too terrible...
 
But yeah getting Julius' sister as wife would be cool. But Sulla would gaze disapprovingly at us for a LONG LONG time.
 
No.

Firstly, each level in Command costs us several times more XP than an equivalent boost to Logistics for the same bonus on the die roll, because of how XP cost scales with level.

Secondly, we can delegate supply trains to subordinates, but we have no guarantee that our immediate subordinates will be better at Logistics than we are. By the time we get to the point where we're commanding our own armies and making critical strategic decisions that directly alter the fate of Rome, we need to be able to win Logistics rolls ourselves, or be very good at finding subordinates who can do it for us. And it'll be hard for us to find and identify experts if we ourselves are ignorant.

Thirdly, some Logistics rolls (like the ones for sieges) seem to be made directly by the overall commander, and we can't automatically have a subordinate make ALL such rolls for us, any more than we can ensure that a subordinate bodyguard makes all our Combat rolls for us while remaining on the front lines of a battle.
Ehh, he is not wrong. To quote myself:
During the Samnite Campaign a generic Officer had Proficient Logistics (+1), so even at Average we would probably try to outsource logistics actions. That is, as stated in the edit of my previous post, my main issue with pushing Logistics. No matter if our skill is at -4,-2, -1 or 0. We are most of the time going to let a more skilled subordinate handle it.
So in general the xp equivalent of boosting a often used skill, lets take Command, one Level (15-16k), would be to boost Logistics to something higher than the generic officer, which is all the way up to Accomplished at Rank 10.
These generic officers should almost always be available. If we talk about more skilled subordinates, such as Rufus, Mercator or Pompolussa, outsourcing specialised actions becomes even more likely.

Your stated connection between having a higher skill level and being better at recognising talent for that skill in others, while absolutely realistic, has not been reflected in the mechanics.

Regarding the commander Logistics rolls in sieges:
That is something I originally speculated, based purely on the Siege of Nola. We have no confirmation, if this roll is always based on the commanders Logistics skill, or whether Seratorius simply had the highest one in the entire legion. (@Telamon Could we outsource siege Logistics rolls to say Carcellus?)
Also, sieges is something we are likely to see coming at least one turn ahead. So I'm happy to wait until then to spend our bonus XP on Logistics. In the meantime, I will push for more Study Logistics actions, preferably when we have a skilled mentor at hand to expedite the process.

Edit: Let me just add this to expand a bit on my reasoning for pushing to be so frugal with our Bonus XP:
For one I see Intelligence and Military as our main Stats. While self-study is still quite easy for low ranking secondary skill (Logistics, Engineering, Seafaring, Siegcraft, Espionage or whatever new skill the QM adds to tempt us...), it will become harder and harder in the other two.
Also we are roughly 13k XP away from Renowned Military (+4). This turn we are gonna take either 2 or 3 Military study actions and as the campaign get going we are surely going to see more gains there as well. Wouldn't it be nice in the near future to have ~ 5k bonus xp banked, ready to level up before an important battle? (The Military boni is applied to basically every battle roll our our direct command.)
 
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Are you sure you want to say such dangerous things?

It's almost August, after all. Wouldn't want to make him mad.
Now I'm regretting the fact that I'm taking Etruscan archaeology this semester instead of Roman Archaeology because that would be the prefect line to use the next time my Roman Archeology professor started talking about how Augustus was basically a scrawny nerd IRL .
 
Now I'm regretting the fact that I'm taking Etruscan archaeology this semester instead of Roman Archaeology because that would be the prefect line to use the next time my Roman Archeology professor started talking about how Augustus was basically a scrawny nerd IRL .

You mean how he was a 5 foot nothing skinny dork who couldn't lead an army to save his life, wore high heeled shoes to look taller, and was sick every other day?
 
You mean how he was a 5 foot nothing skinny dork who couldn't lead an army to save his life, wore high heeled shoes to look taller, and was sick every other day?
Still outplayed people like Cicero and put him on the proscription lists, so I wouldn't talk this cavalier about him.

That reminds me, I have a list of people in this thread who asked about the possibility of joining Mithridates. For purely administrative purposes... :p
 
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All the good it did us in the end.:p
I mean, for all I know, it made the difference between our soldiers being half-mad from hunger and quite capable of storming the city and tearing it apart, versus the soldiers being so weak from hunger they could hardly lift their weapons before finally abandoning the city.

I'm not sure it can be said that this distinction "did us good," but it culd very well have made a difference.

The gens Cingulla, while ancient, is not counted among the gentes maiores. The Great Families are those who have a consul elected from among their ranks not a few times a generation, but a few times a decade. In every election you care to name, there's probably a Claudian or a Flavian running in it. Name a powerful position, and a member of the Great Families has held it twenty times over, at the least.
Ah, so the distinction between the gentes maiores and the, ah, also-rans, isn't necessarily that these are the only ancient lineages in Rome, but rather that they are the most illustrious such lineages. The Cingulii might have been higher up the Who's Who list 200-300 years ago, but have been rather down on their luck since the Punic Wars.
 
I mean, for all I know, it made the difference between our soldiers being half-mad from hunger and quite capable of storming the city and tearing it apart, versus the soldiers being so weak from hunger they could hardly lift their weapons before finally abandoning the city.
We failed the roll, and from the update, got several loaves of bread here and there, so that particular action in fact didn't do us good. Outriders did, though.
 
The Cingulii might have been higher up the Who's Who list 200-300 years ago, but have been rather down on their luck since the Punic Wars.
That's what we get for breakig sacred oaths. Remind me, what blasphemous acts did Marius and Sulla commit again? I think one plundered Apollo's temple at Delphi, the other read the Sybilline Books without permission.
 
I'd have thought you'd be more protective of dear young Julia, Caesar. But I suppose a Caesar for a bride wouldn't be too terrible...
I mean, as noted, being one of the handful of men in Rome with fairly solid assurance that Julius Caesar won't seduce your wife is worth a lot all by itself. :D

I can't help but wonder if it would help if the plan makers used the X only for the name of the Plan and left all the other brackets empty. I believe that used to work to cut down on the tally, but they might've changed that.

[] Plan Publicola
[] Plan Publicola Plus
It didn't used to be necessary. But things are, of course, in flux.

Ehh, he is not wrong. To quote myself:

So in general the xp equivalent of boosting a often used skill, lets take Command, one Level (15-16k), would be to boost Logistics to something higher than the generic officer, which is all the way up to Accomplished at Rank 10.
These generic officers should almost always be available. If we talk about more skilled subordinates, such as Rufus, Mercator or Pompolussa, outsourcing specialised actions becomes even more likely.
I don't want to count on this kind of thing indefinitely. It creates a lot of point of failure situations, and also will make it difficult for us to train up promising clients when we get into middle and old age.

It's like, being genuinely bad at Logistics is a weakness. It's a weakness that in theory you can bypass, but it's still a weakness. And it's a weakness that you can buff out of the character fairly easily with a handful of Personal actions.

Why not?

I mean, during the campaign against Gemino, for instance, we didn't succeed in finding anyone genuinely good at Logistics. We had "generic officers," but that was literally the first Logistics roll we'd ever seen, @Telamon himself was still fleshing things out, and quite frankly we were fighting the war in tutorial mode.

We can expect to make loads and loads of Logistics rolls; getting good at it ourselves eventually in case our pet quartermaster dies or defects or whatever is just basic prudence.

Edit: Let me just add this to expand a bit on my reasoning for pushing to be so frugal with our Bonus XP:
For one I see Intelligence and Military as our main Stats. While self-study is still quite easy for low ranking secondary skill (Logistics, Engineering, Seafaring, Siegcraft, Espionage or whatever new skill the QM adds to tempt us...), it will become harder and harder in the other two.
Note the difference between stats and skills.

Leveling up stats can be done only with difficulty through personal actions, and often seems to come about as a side-effect of some other desired goal (we didn't write to Cicero the first time in hopes of intellectual stimulation, but we got Intelligence XP; we definitely didn't brush up on our Greek with Theo for that reason, but here we are! :) )

About the only thing that can still give us truly significant stat XP gain at the level of our stronger skills (e.g. Intelligence and Military) is prolonged association with someone even better at them than we are. Sertorius provided a quite substantial trickle of Military XP this way; I suspect that prolonged association with Cicero would do something similar for our Intelligence XP just from keeping up with the guy, as might something like going to Athens or Alexandria to study under prominent scholars.

Skill gain, on the other hand, we can pick up from all over the place. Book study is a good way to grind out glaring deficiencies, and after that we can pick up XP from all over the place. Consider how we've gained Command XP from so many different sources, for instance; I suspect it's the fastest single increase in XP we've had so far.

Also we are roughly 13k XP away from Renowned Military (+4). This turn we are gonna take either 2 or 3 Military study actions and as the campaign get going we are surely going to see more gains there as well. Wouldn't it be nice in the near future to have ~ 5k bonus xp banked, ready to level up before an important battle? (The Military boni is applied to basically every battle roll our our direct command.)
I'd love that and it IS a good idea given that we're fairly close, now that you mention it. It'd be great to pull that extra +2 bonus out of our hat and start actually surprising or impressing people.

That's what we get for breakig sacred oaths. Remind me, what blasphemous acts did Marius and Sulla commit again? I think one plundered Apollo's temple at Delphi, the other read the Sybilline Books without permission.
The former was Sulla (I wrote omakes about it and everything!). The latter was Marius (or at least, Marius is rumored to have looked at the Sybilline Books; I don't know if it's confirmed in-story).

...Historically, the Sybilline Books were lost in a temple fire in 83 BC. That is, next year.

In the context of this setting such an event could be disastrous since prophecy seems to actually work here. On the other hand, events may have butterflied that, depending on the sequence of events by altering the political balance in Rome.
 
Note the difference between stats and skills.

Leveling up stats can be done only with difficulty through personal actions, and often seems to come about as a side-effect of some other desired goal (we didn't write to Cicero the first time in hopes of intellectual stimulation, but we got Intelligence XP; we definitely didn't brush up on our Greek with Theo for that reason, but here we are! :) )

About the only thing that can still give us truly significant stat XP gain at the level of our stronger skills (e.g. Intelligence and Military) is prolonged association with someone even better at them than we are. Sertorius provided a quite substantial trickle of Military XP this way; I suspect that prolonged association with Cicero would do something similar for our Intelligence XP just from keeping up with the guy, as might something like going to Athens or Alexandria to study under prominent scholars.

Skill gain, on the other hand, we can pick up from all over the place. Book study is a good way to grind out glaring deficiencies, and after that we can pick up XP from all over the place. Consider how we've gained Command XP from so many different sources, for instance; I suspect it's the fastest single increase in XP we've had so far.
That's the other way around, I think. You can gain XP for stats from your villa in Italy indefinitely, but to gain skill XP, you need to go out and do things, after certain limit.
 
Why not?

I mean, during the campaign against Gemino, for instance, we didn't succeed in finding anyone genuinely good at Logistics. We had "generic officers," but that was literally the first Logistics roll we'd ever seen, @Telamon himself was still fleshing things out, and quite frankly we were fighting the war in tutorial mode.

We can expect to make loads and loads of Logistics rolls; getting good at it ourselves eventually in case our pet quartermaster dies or defects or whatever is just basic prudence.
I agree, we should absolutely level up those skills. The thing is, not only can't we be sure to find competent minions, we can't even be sure they stay absolutely loyal. One of Caesar's most important liutenants Labienus was unwilling to follow him over the metaphorical Rubicon (which could have been desastrous if he had decided to try and rile up Caesar's veterans against him).
 
That's the other way around, I think. You can gain XP for stats from your villa in Italy indefinitely, but to gain skill XP, you need to go out and do things, after certain limit.
I think I may have explained poorly.

What I mean is, you can gain stat XP just by sitting in libraries and studying and talking to people, sure- but it comes slowly and sometimes serendipitously, or as small awards for doing vaguely related practical things (e.g. Charisma XP for giving a great speech). The only way we know to gain a lot of stat XP is through mentorship under someone better in those stats than we are.

Skill XP we can pick up almost at will just by doing the relevant things; we don't have to scrounge for it as hard because as long as we remain active it keeps flowing in.

To some extent this is probably a consequence of how we AREN'T just sitting back and chilling and catching up on our reading. Atellus is a very active young man who's doing a great deal of very practical high-stakes work, for the first time in his life if you count the past year or so as a single continuous arc of time. As such, it's unsurprising that his practical skills are growing by leaps and bounds, including entire categories of specialized knowledge he barely realized even existed back on his father's country estate. And that, conversely, his "stats," the things that reflect what his natural talents and inclinations are, are only growing gradually and as a side-effect of his other activities, except for the one most closely related to what he's doing (Military XP, since we're at war).

It's no wonder we're not finding it easy to gain XP in Intelligence or Education or Charisma; if we wanted to do that we'd need to be back in Rome studying oratory, going to parties, debating philosophers, and so on.

Of course, some of our other skills (Oratory, Law) are in much the same boat since they're not being used as actively as the military skills.
 
[X] Plan Make Connections and Study v2

[X] Plan Dual Command

I...basically, I think we must have firm command of logistics. Aside from engineering skills, biggest advantage of Rome in war were, frankly, numbers. As in, big population which they had the ability to field and deploy.
They threw legion after legion into wars until they won. Nobody else could pull it off.

That required militaristic culture, discipline and...and loads and loads of logistical skills to use them remotely efficiently. Army without food or armor or other supplies is just a rabble - or a mutiny in motion.


And unless we get some sort of unquestionably loyal supremely skilled quartermaster who will never think of betraying us - and I doubt this is going to happen - we have to be good at logistics, just to be a marginally decent Roman military leader. Logistics is how they won...most of things they won, honestly.

edit: wait a sec i think i misvoted?
 
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The gens Claudia, descended from a powerful Sabine family, were famed in Rome for their arrogance, their pride, and their selfishness. Seen as haughty and vain tyrants, the Claudians often boasted a disrespect for the rules of Rome and her Republic. A legendary branch of their dynasty, the Julio-Claudians, would produce the first of the emperors -- and the most infamous. Their most famous cognomen is Nero, a Sabine name meaning 'heroic'. It will be reviled in later times.
Some people just jelly they can't strut their stuff like h-er, she can.
The gens Fabia, another family of famed populares, were honored in Roman legend for the day when every single man of their family, 306 in all, rode out to accomplish a personal vendetta against the Etruscan city of Veii. Aided by none, every single Fabian save one perished fighting for their family's honor. Their descendants have been honored as a race of warriors.
... well, in an era where one kid's blood oath before the gods basically kicked off a then-known-world war, that is kinda a big deal. It's one thing to die for your honor. Everyone? Now that's special.
The 'first family' of Rome was the gens Cornelia, the Cornelii. Scipio, Sulla, Cinna, and more all belonged to this family. The greatest of their branches was the Cornelii Scipiones, the family of the legendary Scipio Africanus. More generals and consuls of Rome hailed from the Cornelii than from any other bloodline, and all the civil wars saw multiple Cornelii on either side.
The fact they kinda kicked off this whole thing with the Gracchi brothers is something they're either trying to bury or embrace. Either way, something to keep in mind.
The gens Julia, of ancient heritage and storied history, descended, it was said in later times, directly from Aeneas and the goddess Venus. Their most famous branch was the Julii Caesares, who in Atellus' time have risen in Rome due to their association with Gaius Marius. Their name will last a dozen centuries, even when their line has ended.
Given we're 'blessed' by Athena, things're about to get complicated in the near future.
You mean how he was a 5 foot nothing skinny dork who couldn't lead an army to save his life, wore high heeled shoes to look taller, and was sick every other day?
*looks at clip above*
... suddenly things make more sense.
 
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