[X] Plan Firm Foundations
-[X] Make Terms
-[X] Promote Centurions
-[X] See To Repairs
-[X] Brothers in Arms
-[X] Correspondence
--[X] Scaevola
-[X] Brotherhood
-[X] Para Bellum
-[X] Res Publica
-[X] The Crone of Bithynia
-[X] The Prince
-[X] Study

[X] Plan Dual Command
 
That's a false dichotomy if I've ever seen one. You're equating not taking the Law Beyond the Sword option as us essentially abdicating our position and role as a lawgiver. Furthermore you seem to be operating under the assumption that we've always been the sole "giver of laws" when we've already seen plenty of instances where that wasn't true. In the case of the murder of the Equite by the Legionary while we have acted as the chief judge within the tribunal and led the proceedings we were not solely the one who dealt with the case as we had our other Tribunes assisting us. When we listened to the grievances of the men the first time around at Bovianum we also were not alone in that capacity as Rufus was there at the table as well. Furthermore we don't normally deal with all of the disciplinary issues in the first place as it has been shown before that the Centurions have leeway when it comes to punishing the legionaries in their Century and the Camp Prefect can also do so as well. So I find your assertion that we would give up the ability to intercede in these types of dispute to be wrong at the face of it.

Considering how the Make Terms option seems to be one where we'd be tasked with negotiating our roles I doubt that as we have yet to begin negotiations and push for what we want that not taking this option now would be tantamount to losing it during the negotiations as we don't even know what role we want to negotiate for yet anyways.

So once again, I find your argument unconvincing.

Edit: Also this:

[X] Plan Firm Foundations
-[X] Make Terms
-[X] Promote Centurions
-[X] See To Repairs
-[X] Brothers in Arms
-[X] Correspondence
--[X] Scaevola
-[X] Brotherhood
-[X] Para Bellum
-[X] Res Publica
-[X] The Crone of Bithynia
-[X] The Prince
-[X] Study

[X] Plan Dual Command
I'm sorry, but your argument boils down to: if we don't take the repair option, Cassianus will do so and look good. So yes, with the same argument I can say that he will choose the Law option and get a good foot in.
Besides, the other tribunes did nothing and barely even listened to the verdict when we held the tribunal, with only Rufus as our right hand assisting. He does so as our right hand however. And sure, there is the Camp prefect who can also deal with those issues, but I didn't choose the phrase 'giver of law' without reason. That is exactly how the legionaries see us as we can tell from the updates on the Samnite War.
 
While it is true that our reputation at 8/10 (or potentially even higher after succesful Brotherhood and Tribune actions) will have a strong impact on the Make Terms roll, lets not forget that Cassianus is also well liked and will recieve similar boni (at most 2 to 3 points lower). The Cult option explicitly activates the good will we cultivated with tribunes and officer of the legion to . Even if we roll terribly, these hard earned relation should ensure that we get a favourable deal. I really don't see why taking both Res Publica and Para Bellum (in addition to Study) should be prioritised over locking down the most important roll of this turn!

Again, I'm not disputing that the Cult choice would help when it comes to negotiating with Cassianus for making terms. It's just that with our reputation of 8/10 with the Legion I feel that Cassianus will have a hard time usurping our position when he's a relative newcomer. Furthermore when you compare our 8/10 with the only other person we've known with that reputation with the Legion:

Commanding Officer Reputation: 8/10 -- Sertorius is the soldier's ideal, a young man who rose from nothing and won the Grass Crown, the Republic's ultimate military honor. Held to be a champion of his soldiers and a defender of the common people, there are many in the Sixth who would die for Sertorius without question.

I think we can afford to take some of the study actions as it's been implied that we're about to not have much time for personal actions, and looking at the previous Si Vis Pacem action, these study actions will give us bonuses for a long period of turns.
 
"Love" includes A Law Beyond The Sword. I don't think this is as good a use of our time as Training. Remember, we are going to be fighting with pros. We will be fighting alongside Marius' veteran legions, and he literally invented the modern legion fighting style. And we will be fighting Mithridates' army, which is going to be considerably more professional and hardened than the Samnites were. Unless the Sixth Legion has gotten dramatically better trained in the past year 'off screen,' we need to up our game. Too many mediocre cohorts, not enough good ones.

Furthermore, Training will also accustom the legion to following our instructions as a whole on the battlefield. That is itself pretty important. It may furthermore reassure Marius and his clients that we're taking our obligations seriously and may not fuck it up too badly.

"Love" also has the IMO risky move of writing to Scaevola, while leading a legion for Marius. I don't like that one.
In my opinion, Cassianus is extremely likely to take the Training action, if we choose not to, so I don't think about it in terms of "this action will not get taken", but in terms of "who will take that action". And I'm okay with Cassianus taking it - it's an important action that would make legionaries respect him and his authority, but also not the one that would particularly endear him to them. Also, it would allow us to see how good he is at command and military, and therefore we would able to battle plans our actions with the knowledge of his skills in our minds.

Any risk from writing letter to Scaevola is, in my mind, entirely overshadowed by the fact that Scaevola is our patron in the first place. So I do not believe it would add any more risk.
 
I'm sorry, but your argument boils down to: if we don't take the repair option, Cassianus will do so and look good. So yes, with the same argument I can say that he will choose the Law option and get a good foot in.
Besides, the other tribunes did nothing and barely even listened to the verdict when we held the tribunal, with only Rufus as our right hand assisting. He does so as our right hand however. And sure, there is the Camp prefect who can also deal with those issues, but I didn't choose the phrase 'giver of law' without reason. That is exactly how the legionaries see us as we can tell from the updates on the Samnite War.

I've already addressed Cassianus potentially taking the Law option. Even if he does take that option I don't believe him doing so will be enough to usurp all of the headway we've made in that role as we've spent months on campaign with these men addressing a myriad number of issues ranging from the minor to the serious, assuming he takes that option I believe that we have enough history and precedent to make it so that Cassianus cannot easily overtake our position. That is why I chose the repair option rather the the Law option because one is something both of us could easily accomplish and win support for doing so, repair, while the other is something that we already have a head start in, the law option.

You also said "Sole" giver of law, which is obviously not the case as the Centurions and Camp Prefect, alongside the Legate, also are able to dispense justice and discipline to the Legion.

Once again, you've failed to convince me.
 
I really, really think we should take a plan that involves the Training action. Remember that the quality of the legion's cohorts was iffy as of the end of the Fourth Samnite War:

3 half-green Cohorts, 5 Average, 1 Skilled, 1 Elite,

On the die roll that's three -1's, five 0's, a +1 and a +3, if I recall rightly. We're going to look pretty weak compared to legions of highly experienced soldiers, and are going to be more vulnerable than average to experienced enemy troops.

Like, I get that it's important for us to position ourselves to be popular, but it's also important for us to position ourselves to win.

In my opinion, Cassianus is extremely likely to take the Training action, if we choose not to, so I don't think about it in terms of "this action will not get taken", but in terms of "who will take that action". And I'm okay with Cassianus taking it - it's an important action that would make legionaries respect him and his authority, but also not the one that would particularly endear him to them. Also, it would allow us to see how good he is at command and military, and therefore we would able to battle plans our actions with the knowledge of his skills in our minds.
OK. In fairness you have a point. I hope Cassianus is active about the training. My concern is that:

1) He may neglect that in favor of more politic actions, and
2) It will cause the Sixth to become more accustomed to looking to him for direction in battle.

Also, See to Repairs may involve us rolling an Engineering check, which is not our best skill. :p

Any risk from writing letter to Scaevola is, in my mind, entirely overshadowed by the fact that Scaevola is our patron in the first place. So I do not believe it would add any more risk.
It might make the difference between Marius thinking

"The boy learned how to lawyer from Scaevola, well, I never said the bastard wasn't a good lawyer,"

and

"The boy is a spy for Scaevola, off with his head!"

It might not, but it might.
 
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[X] Plan Publicola
[X] Plan Dual Command
[X] Plan Firm Foundations

Reading the update again, Marius really got screwed over by Cinna didn't he? Requests three Legion to make up for his setbacks but only receives one under the command of Asiaticus. Although to be fair to Cinna he isn't in a much better position, having to hold Rome without a single Legion with the additional threat of Pompey and his Legions still in the Italian countryside. Mayhaps we'll see a change in history with Cinna marrying his daughter Cornelia to Pompey to secure his Legions rather than to Caesar.

Cinna still has the ten legions he raised to take Rome at Marius' side. They're not full-strength, they're scattered across Italia, and they consist mostly of Italian auxiliaries and veterans from the social war, but they exist. The Marians aren't so lax as to send the entire army overseas and leave Rome undefended.

If Sulla marched back to Rome, Cinna could probably merge them all to form a fighting force equal to four full-strength legions with a decent chunk of auxiliaries within the year. And he's got enough money to raise another two or three on top of that if absolutely necessary.

The full power of the Marian cause when rallied is quite impressive, actually — at the Battle of the Colline Gate, where Sulla and Pompey defeated the Marians once and for all, the Marians, fighting with a combined force of Romans, Samnites, Gauls, and various Italians, lost well over 50,000 men — the equivalent of ten legions. More fled or were taken captive, and nearly ten thousand were taken as slaves.

This is not their day-to-day strength, but rather their full strength when they pull together all their loyal legions and raise every single auxiliary that Italia can support. It is, quite literally, an army of the people, and though it dwarfs the optimate forces in number, Sulla has more veteran legionnaires on his side than the Marians do. And as Marius himself showed when he turned aside a Gallic tribe of 200,000 with less than half that number, veteran legionnaires are a vital force multiplier.

EDIT: Remember your histories. Sulla and Pompey the Elder butchered the Italiotes during the Social War. They razed cities and genocided entire tribes out of existence, and those who remain still remember. Even the Samnites, who hate Rome, would die for Marius ten times over just to spit in Sulla's face. Cinna raised ten legions there to take Rome from Sulla in the blink of an eye. Unless and until the Marians are killed to a man, they will always find willing swords for their cause in Italy.
 
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[X] Plan Firm Foundations
-[X] Make Terms
-[X] Promote Centurions
-[X] See To Repairs
-[X] Brothers in Arms
-[X] Correspondence
--[X] Scaevola
-[X] Brotherhood
-[X] Para Bellum
-[X] Res Publica
-[X] The Crone of Bithynia
-[X] The Prince
-[X] Study

[X] Plan Dual Command
 
Again, I'm not disputing that the Cult choice would help when it comes to negotiating with Cassianus for making terms. It's just that with our reputation of 8/10 with the Legion I feel that Cassianus will have a hard time usurping our position when he's a relative newcomer. Furthermore when you compare our 8/10 with the only other person we've known with that reputation with the Legion:



I think we can afford to take some of the study actions as it's been implied that we're about to not have much time for personal actions, and looking at the previous Si Vis Pacem action, these study actions will give us bonuses for a long period of turns.
I'm all for taking as many study actions as possible, in fact I included 2 out of those 3 in my own plan. But your plan, to minimises our effort on dealing with Cassianus and instead maximise our personal study time, seems like a huge gamble to me. A bad result on Make Terms could cripple this campaign before it ever really got going.
Anyway I feel we simply have very different risk tolerances for this vote, and I will admit that IF your gamble pays off, we will benefit from having gone for an additional study action.

@Simon_Jester have you seen that, after the XP gain from the sea voyage and thus activated Omake bonus, we should be at Seafaring Rank 2? I agree that boosting Seafaring is important, but I feel it is not as time sensitive as other options. I feel your plan would profit more from the potential synergy between Training and Res Publica/Para Bellum OR Study and Si Vis Pacem.

I'm actually quite ambivalent between Make Terms, Overshadow and Connect so these are my currently prefered plans in each category (mostly based on synergies):
[X] Plan Dual Command
[X] Plan Off with the gloves
[X] Plan Publicola
[X] Plan Make Connections and Study v2
 
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You also said "Sole" giver of law, which is obviously not the case as the Centurions and Camp Prefect, alongside the Legate, also are able to dispense justice and discipline to the Legion.
If you want to nail me to that word, then Sertorius isn't here anymore, the Camp Prefect has asked us to look into the Barracks Tyrant (so I assume he has been deferring that role after he had already done so with two major incidents), the tribunes were next to useless until the siege of Nola went into its final phase and Rufus is "our creature". I give you the centurions, who are the first recipient for inter century conflict.
Like, I get that it's important for us to position ourselves to be popular, but it's also important for us to position ourselves to win.
I have been thinking about switching to training, mostly because I really expect Marius to lay into us if we don't. I don't think Atellus' silver tongue is developed enough to talk himself out of that.

And that was before Telamon stressed that veterans are kinda important.
 
OK. In fairness you have a point. I hope Cassianus is active about the training. My concern is that:

1) He may neglect that in favor of more politic actions, and
2) It will cause the Sixth to become more accustomed to looking to him for direction in battle.

Also, See to Repairs may involve us rolling an Engineering check, which is not our best skill. :p
1) Training is a more political action for him. The legion is his greatest power right now, but he is not well known in it. Sure, men has taken a liking to him, but they still don't know anything about him as a commander. So, what would be the best way to ensure they do know something about his command? Actually command them in drilling. I am 99% sure he will take the action, it would be very stupid of him not to. And he would understand the importance of not actually losing the battles, too.
2) It will familiarize them to his command somewhat, true. But I do not think that some drilling from him would outweigh the fact that we not only drilled them ourselves during Samnium War, but also actually led them in battle there several times. So even after his training, we would still be more looked for during the command. In fact, the legion being familiar to his command might do us good, because we are most probably not locking him out of battle completely, and him losing his part due to break down in command could get really bad.
It might make the difference between Marius thinking

"The boy learned how to lawyer from Scaevola, well, I never said the bastard wasn't a good lawyer,"

and

"The boy is a spy for Scaevola, off with his head!"

It might not, but it might.
Marius might not be the most stable and calm of individuals, but he is not a madman either. Us writing to our patron for help and contacts is absolutely normal behavior, so saying we're a spy and killing us for it would be complete madness. What would we even spy about, really, the dismissal of the consul? The entire Rome is going to know about it the moment first ship from Nicomedia arrives there, anyway. Also, killing one of the commanding officers of the legion before you set out on the campaign sounds really, really stupid, especially when that officer is quite popular.
 
EDIT: Remember your histories. Sulla and Pompey the Elder butchered the Italiotes during the Social War. They razed cities and genocided entire tribes out of existence, and those who remain still remember. Even the Samnites, who hate Rome, would die for Marius ten times over just to spit in Sulla's face. Cinna raised ten legions there to take Rome from Sulla in the blink of an eye. Unless and until the Marians are killed to a man, they will always find willing swords for their cause in Italy.
So, what do we learn here? Don't be more of a dick than you have to when you loot and conquer a people. They might remember.
(So I assume that Sulla has an Enemy of Italiotes trait with rank 4 or 5?)
 
I'm all for taking as many study actions as possible, in fact I included 2 out of those 3 in my own plan. But your plan, to minimises our effort on dealing with Cassianus and instead maximise our personal study time, seems like a huge gamble to me. A bad result on Make Terms could cripple this campaign before it ever really got going.
Anyway I feel we simply have very different risk tolerances for this vote, and I will admit that IF your gamble pays off we will be better off with an additional study action.

Fair enough, I simply view the actions chosen, alongside the Brotherhood action will be more than enough to cement the loyalty of our men when it comes time for negotiation.

Though these arguments are likely moot considering Plan Publicola seems to be winning still, which doesn't have us making terms with Cassianus, so unless all of the make term voters can coalesce around a single vote, our debate won't matter.

If you want to nail me to that word, then Sertorius isn't here anymore, the Camp Prefect has asked us to look into the Barracks Tyrant (so I assume he has been deferring that role after he had already done so with two major incidents), the tribunes were next to useless until the siege of Nola went into its final phase and Rufus is "our creature". I give you the centurions, who are the first recipient for inter century conflict.

The reason for why the Camp Prefect asked us to look into the Barrack Tyrant was already stated:

Harshness is valued, even enforced, in the legions, but when Carcellus comes to you one afternoon with a quiet request to look into the centurion --a boundary he, as an officer, cannot cross himself without incurring the wrath of his peers -- you are fully convinced Scemperio has overstepped his remit as a centurion.

So that was more the exception than the rule in regards to the Camp Prefect giving us a duty to uphold.

That is why I am not worried about Cassianus usurping us in this regard, we've already had more than enough instances of us upholding and dispensing justice that Cassianus cannot easily take our position, even if he should choose to do so.
 
I really, really think we should take a plan that involves the Training action.
*cough*
If I may.... blow my own horn a little, what do you think about my plan?
[X] Plan Make Connections and Study v2
[] Connect:
You make an attempt to connect with him. Cassianus' father was a farmer and his mother a tavern maid -- you come from different worlds, yet if you can form a friendship, or at least an understanding of sorts, it will make both your lives easier in the long run.

[] Training: Your men are well-trained enough, but the Samnite campaign did not offer many opportunities for the sort of combat they will soon be facing. It may be chilly, but you drill them in the fields outside Nicomedia.
[] Promote Centurions: A few centurions and lower-ranking officers left the legion in Rome, their service having ended. Several soldiers who served with distinction during the Samnite campaign may well stand to replace them. Men you raise up may be loyal to you in the future.
[] Brothers in Arms: You strive to mend the frayed relations between the patrician cavalry and the plebian legionnaires, which have grown worse over time.

[] Correspondence
--[] Cicero

[] The Scipians: Unlike Sertorius, who traveled with a single slave, Scipio has brought along a veritable entourage of slaves, clients, friends, and cronies. These Scipians are largely plebian men of all stripes, and you attempt to integrate yourselves with them in order to learn something more of their new master, Cassianus, who seems to have become a focal point for them -- a novus homo who has risen from their ranks to lead a legion.
[] The Marians: The soldiers and legions now serving under Marius are devoted in their loyalty to the great general. You seek to make connections with these men, and form relationships which may serve you well back in Rome. Perhaps the greatest of these Marians is the legatus Gnaeus Papirus Carbo, legatus of the Seventh Legion and Marius' second in command.
[] The Prince: Bithynia is not short on royalty. Ptolemy, one of the princes of Egypt, long exiled from his native land, made himself a guest of Mithridates and remained in Nicomedia after the city fell to Rome. Famed as a great partier and player of the flute, he has resided in a palatial estate here in the city with his family and retainers. You could pay the heir of the Pharaohs a visit.
[] Si Vis Pacem: The Greek city-states in Asia and the Greek mainland have long maintained their independence and autonomy, even as nominal vassals of Rome. You read up on their histories, rivalries, and old friendships, that you might make use of these in your campaign.
[] Para Bellum: You begin studying the campaigns against the Macedonians and the Greeks over a century ago, hoping to learn more about Greek tactics, that you might counter them better.
[] Study: You study the campaigns of Marius in Africa, hoping to learn something about defeating a hostile kingdom while protecting Roman clients. That Marius himself is here does not hurt matters either.
 
@Simon_Jester
Do you have any reason for choosing "Seafaring", "Crone" and "Prince" beyond really wanting to? Especially "Seafaring" is a really strange choice. Sure, we have a free level upsecured, but it's the least pressing of all the options. Chances are we'll need it only when we return to Rome or embark for Greece.
In addition I'm a bit sceptical of the Crone, mostly because Gemino's prophecy doesn't really make this option that desirable, if you ask me.
 
[X] Plan Firm Foundations
-[X] Make Terms
-[X] Promote Centurions
-[X] See To Repairs
-[X] Brothers in Arms
-[X] Correspondence
--[X] Scaevola
-[X] Brotherhood
-[X] Para Bellum
-[X] Res Publica
-[X] The Crone of Bithynia
-[X] The Prince
-[X] Study
 
[X] Plan Firm Foundations
-[X] Make Terms
-[X] Promote Centurions
-[X] See To Repairs
-[X] Brothers in Arms
-[X] Correspondence
--[X] Scaevola
-[X] Brotherhood
-[X] Para Bellum
-[X] Res Publica
-[X] The Crone of Bithynia
-[X] The Prince
-[X] Study

[X] Plan Dual Command
 
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