- Location
- Europe
Frankly I expect the men to have forgotten what it feels like to sit in the cold after a whole week.
Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome
- Thread starter Telamon
- Start date
- Original Historic
- Location
- USA
Considering the vote option in question seems to reference possible death as a consequence of neglecting this choice, I would not be so flippant as to assume that things will just be alright, especially when the same thing could be said for their complaints against each other.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ah, there's the disconnect, I thought we would be negotiating terms near the start of the next update, which this plan would have to violate in spirit if not letter. Your plan is effectively having us act like we're going for Overshadow for most of the next update then make terms at the end of our stay in the city with the added weight of "look, i've already started to overshadow you". That doesn't seem like a course that would be easy to flip into a friendship, and once again, if we can't befriend him then we need to defeat him.
We don't have forever, but we're not extremely pressed for time either. I do not believe that Make Terms would make our later actions all that more complicated, whether they'll be more for connection or overshadowing.
- Location
- USA
The thing is, you can construe any of our Master of the Cohorts duties as potentially overshadowing Cassianus because almost all of the options deal with ways we could be earning either the respect or admiration of the Legion. These are all duties that need to be performed no matter what. Furthermore Cassianus likely knows that we're simply doing what is pragmatic and shoring up our base of support, as any good young ambitious Roman would, something he likely will do as well, so I don't think he'll begrudge us if we are doing what he is likely to do.
I wouldn't mind a friendship developing between us and Cassianus, I just don't think we should bet on it so early on when we don't know anything about it. By making terms now and clearly delineating our roles and responsibilities, I think we could still develop a friendship as we won't have to worry about overtly jockeying for position.
- Location
- Europe
Yes, I'm flippant because you seem to assume that no one is going to build it, or that Cassianus will do so. Well, I fully expect either Rufus or Cassianus to see to it, but then, after a week of the new normal, I don't believe the legionaries will keep praising us throughout the entire winter. At the same time they'll always have reason to bitch about this and that, like the cooks trying to poison them or the centurion trying to steal their boots. So while the repairs are very important, I think it's a short term boost to our popularity (while ensuring our men are in fighting condition).
- Location
- USA
Yes, I am assuming that Cassianus will take the repair option as it is an easy way into the hearts of the men even if he doesn't have good Engineering skills.
As we've already shown that we're willing to address the issues and complaints by the man I feel like taking the Law By the Sword action is just going to show us diminishing returns. The men will always have a reason to bitch and complain, that's just the nature of soldierly life. We don't lose much if we don't address these issues here and now.
On the contrary I see the Repair Options as more likely to pay dividends as it is a one time option that addresses a more basic and essential need for the men, while also showing that we care for their well being enough to address this issue personally for them.
At this point we're arguing in circles. I've already laid out my reasons for why I don't feel we need to take the Law By The Sword option, past precedence having shown that we don't need to take it every time, and it's clear that you think that the boost gained by the repair option is not higher than that of the Law By the Sword. So in order to save time it's probably better to just agree to disagree as I've already stated my position and so far your points have been far from convincing to me.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Marius is a ticking time bomb, and the end of the update said of these 6 personal actions that
given that dealing with Cassianus will need to share space with all the other demands on our personal actions, I very much believe that we are pressed for time here.
Yes, almost any action could be viewed as an Overshadow attempt. That is why it is best for us to make terms as early as possible, clearly defining our roles so that we may both achieve renowned. Instead, your plan is to force him to experience a few weeks of overshadow,and hope it cows him.
That ability to make an informed choice is indeed one of the great benefits of augmentic's plan. Your brinksmanship slants it far towards rivalry, diminishing that flexibility greatly.
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- Location
- USA
I don't think we get to choose when the Make Terms actions occurs.
If we are working on the assumption that almost all of the actions can be viewed as an overshadow attempt then every single plan could be seen as spending a month to overshadow him, so your point is rather moot. The only difference between my plan and @agumentic plan in terms of Master of Cohort's actions is that I chose Repair instead of Law By the Sword. Both of our plans have Make Terms as the choice for approaching Cassianus, so I'm not entirely sure how my plan is slanting towards rivalry when the only noticeable difference is one single action that achieves a similar effect.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If we don't get to choose when Make Terms occurs and it happens EARLIER in the update so that it applies to this turn, then your plan results in us claiming engineering as one of our areas of expertise in order to allow us to pull it off.
Perhaps the best way to resolve this is to once again summon @Telamon to say when we start negotiations.
Perhaps the best way to resolve this is to once again summon @Telamon to say when we start negotiations.
While we will undoubtedly have less time during the campaign proper, it will most likely last at least several turns, and some of the actions we choose now should be unneeded. We are doing most of the studies we would need right now, and we should be as entrenched in the legion as we could be, without a couple of good victories. Of course, there will be other things, like sacrificing our personal actions to personally fight and/or diplomance, but I believe we should have enough actions left to advance our relationship with Cassianus one way or the other. An early boost we could get from committing fully turn 1 is not something to disregard, but I do not think it would be especially critical either.
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- Location
- Earth
[X] Plan Publicola
[X] Plan Dual Command
[X] Plan Firm Foundations
Reading the update again, Marius really got screwed over by Cinna didn't he? Requests three Legion to make up for his setbacks but only receives one under the command of Asiaticus. Although to be fair to Cinna he isn't in a much better position, having to hold Rome without a single Legion with the additional threat of Pompey and his Legions still in the Italian countryside. Mayhaps we'll see a change in history with Cinna marrying his daughter Cornelia to Pompey to secure his Legions rather than to Caesar.
[X] Plan Dual Command
[X] Plan Firm Foundations
Reading the update again, Marius really got screwed over by Cinna didn't he? Requests three Legion to make up for his setbacks but only receives one under the command of Asiaticus. Although to be fair to Cinna he isn't in a much better position, having to hold Rome without a single Legion with the additional threat of Pompey and his Legions still in the Italian countryside. Mayhaps we'll see a change in history with Cinna marrying his daughter Cornelia to Pompey to secure his Legions rather than to Caesar.
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- Location
- Europe
I think you are wrong about this, because setting up a table isn't just about listening to complainers. It's also about sitting as judge in arguments between soldiers. Not only do I think that many small conflicts have piled up for it to get this bad, small grievances and accusations which won't just disappear because Atellus gave a sweeping speech about Roman unison in the face of mortal enemies, but as a judge we have tremendous power and influence on the men since we are who decides who's right at the end of the day, even if we keep to fair verdicts. And from my perspective you want to give up the ability to intercede in the quarrels of the legionaries and be the sole 'giver of law'.
(I saw that you wanted to put the argument to rest, but I think the point about sitting in judgement should still be made.)
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Cornelia is already married to Caesar, I think.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
[] Plan Dual Command
-[] Make Terms
-[] Promote Centurions
-[] Brothers in Arms
-[] Training
-[] Correspondence:
--[] Cicero
-[] The Crone of Bithynia
-[] The Cult
-[] The Marians
-[] Study (Marius' Campaigns)
-[] Seafaring
-[] The Prince
(EDIT: This version of plan disabled. I replaced 'Seafaring' with 'Res Publica' after learning of some details regarding Seafaring XP that I didn't know at the time)
This is my plan notion. I want the "Crone," "Seafaring," and "Prince" actions. I think "The Marians" may help us network with some of the people who can get us better favor with Marius, and who are solid commanders in their own right. "Study Marius' Campaigns" synergizes with that potentially, and is a good idea in general.
"Brotherhood" is a good idea but something we probably CAN do on campaign. Postponable, at least a bit. Another action I'd love to fit in here is "Study Logistics;" this is likely to be an area where we are most vulnerable to screwing up in a way that makes Marius dismiss us or otherwise flip out. Our Military and Command and Combat skills are high enough that we probably won't disgrace ourselves on the battlefield- we might lose, but we'd lose fighting. Our Logistics skills are at a level that leaves us more vulnerable to humiliation.
Now, I'm thinking about what other plans to support...
-[] Make Terms
-[] Promote Centurions
-[] Brothers in Arms
-[] Training
-[] Correspondence:
--[] Cicero
-[] The Crone of Bithynia
-[] The Cult
-[] The Marians
-[] Study (Marius' Campaigns)
-[] Seafaring
-[] The Prince
(EDIT: This version of plan disabled. I replaced 'Seafaring' with 'Res Publica' after learning of some details regarding Seafaring XP that I didn't know at the time)
This is my plan notion. I want the "Crone," "Seafaring," and "Prince" actions. I think "The Marians" may help us network with some of the people who can get us better favor with Marius, and who are solid commanders in their own right. "Study Marius' Campaigns" synergizes with that potentially, and is a good idea in general.
"Brotherhood" is a good idea but something we probably CAN do on campaign. Postponable, at least a bit. Another action I'd love to fit in here is "Study Logistics;" this is likely to be an area where we are most vulnerable to screwing up in a way that makes Marius dismiss us or otherwise flip out. Our Military and Command and Combat skills are high enough that we probably won't disgrace ourselves on the battlefield- we might lose, but we'd lose fighting. Our Logistics skills are at a level that leaves us more vulnerable to humiliation.
Now, I'm thinking about what other plans to support...
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On top of the thread, expandable menu marked with three periods.
- Location
- Australia
I've just discovered this quest and holy crap, the work you have put into the history, the writing and the system are beyond god-like. And you write it all in a style that feels so human and in the moment, a fresh change from what's normally a very clinical topic. You've done better than any fiction writer I can think of to make the Roman world and its people feel alive and present, as opposed to a textbook highlights tour or relics of impossibly distant history. Plus I'm always a sucker for Forest Gump-style adventures to meet all the important people and take part in all the important happenings of the period, plus the Roman Republic political hierarchy lends itself well to RPG-style progression. And I've barely begun to read the quest - and definitely eager to catch up and take part!
I rate this quest an immortalize the QM as a god out of ten, truly extraordinary work!
I rate this quest an immortalize the QM as a god out of ten, truly extraordinary work!
- Location
- Earth
Around 83 BC, although sources aren't exactly clear. They could well be already married or not depending on how closely we're following historic events. It was more an interesting thought on my part, Pompey is a wildcard. He still possesses three Legions in Italy and may not be as amenable to the Optimates as he was historically due to his failed plot. Binding him through marriage would be a valid way for Cinna to bring him into the fold, shoring up his control, and maybe even use him to fight Marius should they turn on one another.
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- Location
- USA
That's a false dichotomy if I've ever seen one. You're equating not taking the Law Beyond the Sword option as us essentially abdicating our position and role as a lawgiver. Furthermore you seem to be operating under the assumption that we've always been the sole "giver of laws" when we've already seen plenty of instances where that wasn't true. In the case of the murder of the Equite by the Legionary while we have acted as the chief judge within the tribunal and led the proceedings we were not solely the one who dealt with the case as we had our other Tribunes assisting us. When we listened to the grievances of the men the first time around at Bovianum we also were not alone in that capacity as Rufus was there at the table as well. Furthermore we don't normally deal with all of the disciplinary issues in the first place as it has been shown before that the Centurions have leeway when it comes to punishing the legionaries in their Century and the Camp Prefect can also do so as well. So I find your assertion that we would give up the ability to intercede in these types of dispute to be wrong at the face of it.
Considering how the Make Terms option seems to be one where we'd be tasked with negotiating our roles I doubt that as we have yet to begin negotiations and push for what we want that not taking this option now would be tantamount to losing it during the negotiations as we don't even know what role we want to negotiate for yet anyways.
So once again, I find your argument unconvincing.
Edit: Also this:
[X] Plan Firm Foundations
-[X] Make Terms
-[X] Promote Centurions
-[X] See To Repairs
-[X] Brothers in Arms
-[X] Correspondence
--[X] Scaevola
-[X] Brotherhood
-[X] Para Bellum
-[X] Res Publica
-[X] The Crone of Bithynia
-[X] The Prince
-[X] Study
[X] Plan Dual Command
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
OK. So the leading plans seem to be "Publicola," "Love," and "Firm," which I'm going to call them for brevity.
"Love" includes A Law Beyond The Sword. I don't think this is as good a use of our time as Training. Remember, we are going to be fighting with pros. We will be fighting alongside Marius' veteran legions, and he literally invented the modern legion fighting style. And we will be fighting Mithridates' army, which is going to be considerably more professional and hardened than the Samnites were. Unless the Sixth Legion has gotten dramatically better trained in the past year 'off screen,' we need to up our game. Too many mediocre cohorts, not enough good ones.
Furthermore, Training will also accustom the legion to following our instructions as a whole on the battlefield. That is itself pretty important. It may furthermore reassure Marius and his clients that we're taking our obligations seriously and may not fuck it up too badly.
"Love" also has the IMO risky move of writing to Scaevola, while leading a legion for Marius. I don't like that one.
...
Now, "Love" drops some personal actions I'd rather have, but is broadly acceptable to me- there are justifications for the substitutions.
"Publicola" is a "Connect" plan, which I am okay with. I think personally that @Publicola is being strongly over-literal in how he interprets the text of A Law Beyond The Sword. Firstly, because this is unlikely to do so much for our image with the men that it overrides things like "make sure they are in shape and can trust us on the field." Secondly, because it's not like we get grumbling that we're neglecting our duties every turn that we don't choose this- I don't buy the argument that we will be seen as negligent for not taking this action. Remember, the areas we choose as actions for the legion like this are above and beyond just doing the minimum in our capacity as a tribune. These are the areas where we choose to do things we arguably didn't have to do. And thirdly, our de facto position just changed sharply. We are not just a tribune running around as Sertorius' XO anymore; we are de facto the legate, or trying to be the legate. That means that our remit is in the nature of things going to be broader, and seeing to the readiness of the legion is going to be a higher priority compared to settling minor individual disputes.
With that said, I am, again, broadly satisfied with Publicola's personal action choices.
...
"Firm" again has the risky 'write to Scaevola' thing going on. I'm less unhappy with See to Repairs than I am with A Law Beyond The Sword, but am still ambivalent on it. The big thing I don't really like about "Firm's" personal actions is that it doesn't use The Cult to synergize with Make Terms, which increases the risk that we'll be unable to make a favorable or at least reasonable arrangement for the command of the legion.
"Love" includes A Law Beyond The Sword. I don't think this is as good a use of our time as Training. Remember, we are going to be fighting with pros. We will be fighting alongside Marius' veteran legions, and he literally invented the modern legion fighting style. And we will be fighting Mithridates' army, which is going to be considerably more professional and hardened than the Samnites were. Unless the Sixth Legion has gotten dramatically better trained in the past year 'off screen,' we need to up our game. Too many mediocre cohorts, not enough good ones.
Furthermore, Training will also accustom the legion to following our instructions as a whole on the battlefield. That is itself pretty important. It may furthermore reassure Marius and his clients that we're taking our obligations seriously and may not fuck it up too badly.
"Love" also has the IMO risky move of writing to Scaevola, while leading a legion for Marius. I don't like that one.
...
Now, "Love" drops some personal actions I'd rather have, but is broadly acceptable to me- there are justifications for the substitutions.
"Publicola" is a "Connect" plan, which I am okay with. I think personally that @Publicola is being strongly over-literal in how he interprets the text of A Law Beyond The Sword. Firstly, because this is unlikely to do so much for our image with the men that it overrides things like "make sure they are in shape and can trust us on the field." Secondly, because it's not like we get grumbling that we're neglecting our duties every turn that we don't choose this- I don't buy the argument that we will be seen as negligent for not taking this action. Remember, the areas we choose as actions for the legion like this are above and beyond just doing the minimum in our capacity as a tribune. These are the areas where we choose to do things we arguably didn't have to do. And thirdly, our de facto position just changed sharply. We are not just a tribune running around as Sertorius' XO anymore; we are de facto the legate, or trying to be the legate. That means that our remit is in the nature of things going to be broader, and seeing to the readiness of the legion is going to be a higher priority compared to settling minor individual disputes.
With that said, I am, again, broadly satisfied with Publicola's personal action choices.
...
"Firm" again has the risky 'write to Scaevola' thing going on. I'm less unhappy with See to Repairs than I am with A Law Beyond The Sword, but am still ambivalent on it. The big thing I don't really like about "Firm's" personal actions is that it doesn't use The Cult to synergize with Make Terms, which increases the risk that we'll be unable to make a favorable or at least reasonable arrangement for the command of the legion.
- Location
- Central Europe
While it is true that our reputation at 8/10 (or potentially even higher after succesful Brotherhood and Tribune actions) will have a strong impact on the Make Terms roll, lets not forget that Cassianus is also well liked and will recieve similar boni (at most 2 to 3 points lower). The Cult option explicitly activates the good will we cultivated with tribunes and officer of the legion to . Even if we roll terribly, these hard earned relation should ensure that we get a favourable deal. I really don't see why taking both Res Publica and Para Bellum (in addition to Study) should be prioritised over locking down the most important roll of this turn!
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