0. Quest Mechanics and Details
0
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                         NOTICES
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Cacophonous Interlude is NOT active
  (the QMPC does NOT hear what you write right now)
Next story update : Sometime in July would be nice
Next vote closing : TBD
Progress toward next update : 3,146 words
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Anything I post that's not in text blocks or in spoilers
may be understood to be said by the QMPC, with the
exception of the Collaboration Post
  (see Collaboration Post for details on itself)
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Players do not need to use code blocks or spoilers
outside of cacophonous interludes

If you use code blocks, please limit yourself to 32 lines
and your lines to 57 characters, so that people on mobile
can read them without scrolling within the code block
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This is not meant to be Plagiarism Quest.

You're not discouraged from using outside reference
material or quoting other sources.  When you do, please
cite your sources in spoilers or a code box.
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 I have added some players who contributed a fair amount
the last two times as thread collaborators who can update
   the collaboration post. If you'd like to update the
collaboration post too, contact me by PM and we'll talk
                        about it.




Check the Collaboration Post and read the latest story post in the Threadmarks to get a rough idea of where things are at.

If you're not already involved in the game, portions of either of these may be difficult to follow. But you can skip to the line that says "B R E A K" in the latest threadmarked story post and skim from there to get an idea of what's going on.

If there's no corresponding Closing The Vote post in the Informational threadmarks for the latest story post in (normal?) Threadmarks, then the game is in a cacophonous interlude and the QMPC will hear what you post, unless you do so with spoilers or code boxes. The NOTICES portion at the top of this post should also tell you if the game is in a cacophonous interlude.

So you can engage with other players, make suggestions, ask questions, and propose plans and you can compose a message to the QMPC all whether or not the game is in a cacophonous interlude. And once it is, you can vote and/or send a message to the QMPC by creating a post in the thread.

If you want to vote, simply do so as you would in other quests on this board. You may look at other players' votes to see how yours should be formatted. And you may check the tally to see that yours are counted as you intend them.

If you want to send a message to the QMPC, though, keep in mind that they are a creature of their time. They may not understand what you mean if you don't take the time to make it clear. This game rewards and demands work from its players. When a player wants to introduce a concept or tool or technology to the QMPC, that player will probably need to expend effort to explain it carefully, and take into consideration the limits of the QMPC's understanding of the world.

I think this is similar enough to Graeber's 'interpretive labor' that we can use the term colloquially to describe what is being asked of players. Put yourself in the mind of the QMPC and ask yourself how such a person can be made to understand what you want to tell them.

The QMPC has different values than we do. They have different assumptions about the world and objects and forces within it. Their goals may not align directly with number-go-up or color-get-big gaming agendas. But they want something, and will listen most attentively to players that tell them how to get more of or closer to what they want.
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                    Collaboration Post!
  1. The Quest Master posts story updates that have 3 parts.
    • Quest Master Player Character responses to player posts made during the last cacophonous interlude
    • An update by the QMPC following a break of varying length but usually some number of years, covering what the character believes is worth mentioning
    • Requests by the QMPC for direction on a number of issues, which the players will provide in the form of votes
  2. Following each story update, players posts are audible to the QMPC until voting is closed.
    This is the cacophonous interlude.
    • Players may convey any information they can represent in text.
    • No images, sounds, or hyperlinks will get through (this is my limitation, not a limitation of the game, so please do not try to transcend it with clever protocol tricks).
    • Players may use spoilers or code blocks to communicate with each other without doing so in ways the QMPC can hear.
  3. When votes are tallied, the QM collects player posts so that it may be known what the QMPC heard.
    • Votes are tallied in the conventional fashion. So only votes in the most recent post by each player are counted. [X] marks what the player is voting. And only identical write-ins accumulate.
    • Some votes are querying the players for their preference, in which case the only suboptimal answer is that which does not accurately reflect the preference of the players who nonetheless chose it (I don't think these kinds of misunderstandings can be helped).
    • Other votes are intended as puzzles where there is a choice the QM believes would best meet what they believe to be the goals of the players.
      • However, in these sorts of votes the QM has in mind a choice that would provide the players with what the QM thinks they most want, but which is not listed in the available votes.
      • In this way, clever write-ins are encouraged.
  4. QM reads player posts, researches their suggestions, checks notes for precedent, determines what the QMPC thinks they already know on the topic, what they're right or wrong about, how likely they are to engage with the topic, how likely the QMPC's followers are to follow-through in the matter, and finally what the result is going to be later on.
  5. QM composes QMPC's responses to player posts made during the cacophonous interlude and updates their notes.
  6. When narrative benefits from uncertainty and chance, QM devises tests for QMPC or other characters and makes those tests using die rolls on a post made just for that purpose.
    • Skill or attribute tests will be made with a largely undocumented homebrew modification of the Burning Wheel system, mangled to suit the format of this game. (The Burning Wheelis a good system and I encourage you to check it out.)
      • Tests may be a contest between two characters or against a static target with tiered results.
      • The rules being used and followed will be described in each post in which tests are made by die rolls.
      • Normal mortals count 7s and better as successes.
      • Heroic characters and characters who are otherwise innately magical count 6s and better as successes.
      • Demigod characters and characters who otherwise possess some spark of divinity count 5s and better as successes.
      • New gods and characters who have otherwise stolen the power of Old Gods count 4s and better as successes.
      • Old Gods count 3s and better as successes.
      • Sorcery and other magic skills lower the threshold of success by 1 to a minimum of 3 only when they are the skill being tested, not when they provide a bonus to other skills. Players may note that Old Gods' threshold of success does not improve when they use magic.
      • Bonus dice provided by Kahl's Warhorses and any incendiary devices more complicated than a burning arrow reroll 9s & 10s and keeps successes. These same bonus dice cancels successes on 1s & 2s, rerolls those, and additional 1s & 2s cancel additional successes. More 1s, 2, 9, or 10s mean more rerolling and more successes or cancelations, but only in the manner of the original die. That is, a 1 or 2 that comes up when a 9 on a bonus die is rerolled don't cancel successes or lead to further rerolling.
    • Research project results are determined by percentile dice with results falling into 5 tiers.
      • Uh oh: something has gone horribly wrong
      • Nuh uh: failure, but the boring kind
      • Huh: partial success
      • Uh huh: full success
      • Whoa: superior special case success
    • When players expect a test to be coming up -- for example if they vote for an invasion or to send a diplomat to manipulate a foreign leader -- they can improve the odds of the test turning out the way they want by providing the QMPC with advice specific to that matter. If the advice is not mistaken or outright bad, there will be at least a chance it will help. That is, decent advice adds dice.
  7. QM composes the QMPC's post-break update, player vote questions, and player vote options.
  8. GOTO 1
The QMPC is intended to be the only character the players will interact with in this game. (It's kind of possible that the players could maneuver the QMPC to surrender control of the Astute Cacophony to another character, but unlikely.)

The QMPC is a small, evil woman who knows magic and has not died, despite looking like she probably should have at some point. She goes by the name Bianca the Undying. Her early life took place in the Paleolithic, in which she has said that she traveled around quite a bit and came to understand the malleable nature of populations of people and animals and even the land itself. At some point she was trapped underground, to her displeasure. She remained trapped for a very long time.

When Bianca got out, she found her way to a community of eight tribes living pastoral and agrarian lifestyles in the local Copper Age. She made these people hers and they relied on her for magically enriching their fields so that they did not need to slash, burn, and move around a bit, unlike their neighbors. Bianca and her followers formalized their relationships into the Eight Ways Pact. Later, another tribe joined Bianca's followers bringing small horses and the Bronze Age and their pact was updated with a ninth directive.

Bianca has an agenda that requires her to have more power than she does right now. She believes that achieving divinity will get her that power.
 
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[X] [Term] 5 years
[X] [Reply] They may then go to Burgeck and petition you where you are. If they are willing to make the trip the matter might actually be worthy of your personal attention.
[X] [Leave] Go to Burgeck and correct their missteps
 
I just wanted to say that this is an awesome and very informative quest that I have really enjoyed reading so far. I probably won't actively participate, but I am sure I will continue to enjoy it going forward.

Thank you for doing such a great job @LoserThree
 
Demon, if you like bronze more than iron, and at our current shitty quality of ironmaking this may be even sensible, then I assure you that even production of such iron can offer us more bronze - by selling iron in exchange for bronze or tin.

I prefer not to give iron to anyone, until we become so overflowing with iron goods that someone will get a sample of it.
 
Demon, if you like bronze more than iron, and at our current shitty quality of ironmaking this may be even sensible, then I assure you that even production of such iron can offer us more bronze - by selling iron in exchange for bronze or tin.
The laborious gathering of the ores for iron, and the work and fuel needed to smelt it, and its limited utility and high weight makes such trades probably unprofitable.
 
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11.a Doyalist & Watsonian rationalizations for information gaps
11a
@LoserThree

How did glazing and inkmaking go?
I think the imperfectly reliable narrator is an important part of this work and so I want information about Bianca's world to pass through Bianca. And I think the next obvious question is, "Why didn't Bianca mention glazing and inkmaking?"

The Watsonian answer is that Bianca remarks on what she finds remarkable in the moment that she speaks to the Cacophony. And in this case the waterproofing of pottery isn't a big part of her life and there isn't much call for inks since parchment isn't commonly used. Things happened. She even knows about some of those things.

From a Doyalist perspective this is, of course, a choice I'm making as the author of the work. Instead, I could have Bianca run through a report all business-meeting-like. That would certainly be the most effective way to go about it. And I think I'd enjoy playing a game where that happened. But I wouldn't enjoy running it.

A player voice could ask for updates on a list of items. And I think I'd be fine writing in response to that. And if I find I'm not then, like anything else, Bianca can communicate that. A player, voice or not, could even assemble a tally of all the topics advised, when, and what updates there've been. I think that players as a whole would find that useful, but it could be a bit of work. Unlike the last game I probably won't share mine, just so you know.

And in the Doyalist sense in specific regard to the glazes, I was undecided at the time of writing. I was torn between finding it overly anachronistic for the 9N to already have glazing while at the same time finding seepage from chamber pots to be absolutely horrific.

The chamber pots, I am now thinking, are probably a use pots get put to when they accidentally get some degree of glazing from the manner in which they're fired but aren't best suited to other tasks. And maybe some people's chamber pots seep and that's awful but these people live in the low-to-middle bronze age in minimally-governed collectives and lots of things about their lives are awful. That's still shaky as shit but it's the best I've got right now and the work can move past that. It doesn't even have to come up in the canon of Bianca's words.

But unlike glassmaking, for example, ash glazing is really straightforward and just about anyone who pays attention to their process and product has a good chance of figuring out what they're doing wrong and how to do it better. So unofficially, yeah, glazing is fine.

To be clear, I'm not going to make a habit of passing information around Bianca like this. So I advise against making a habit of expecting it.

As always, thanks for playing, everyone.
 
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No, but it tell them that it can be done.

I think that foreginers-outsiders would believe our iron to be like much worse meteroic iron. I mean, not forever, but for many years. What reason would they have to suspect soon that we are able to produce iron from rocks?

I truly think that we should sell some of that shitty stuff for a very overpriced prices as long as we can. Of course we should also improve our ironmaking to be better.
 
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Either way, it is silly to go through any (non-trivia) effort keeping secrets. Our whole thing is that we are a veritable FONT of new secrets. Each one building upon the last. Any one secret is thus inconsequential. In fact, it benefits us in the long one for these secrets to spread because it gives us a larger base to build upon. For instance, large deposits of Tin & Copper tend to be separated by a great distance, so the best long term way to get more bronze is to promote the spread of better mining techniques to these far off places, while supporting a strong network of traders who can get the goods back to you.
 
I think the imperfectly reliable narrator is an important part of this work and so I want information about Bianca's world to pass through Bianca. And I think the next obvious question is, "Why didn't Bianca mention glazing and inkmaking?"

The Watsonian answer is that Bianca remarks on what she finds remarkable in the moment that she speaks to the Cacophony. And in this case the waterproofing of pottery isn't a big part of her life and there isn't much call for inks since parchment isn't commonly used. Things happened. She even knows about some of those things.

From a Doyalist perspective this is, of course, a choice I'm making as the author of the work. Instead, I could have Bianca run through a report all business-meeting-like. That would certainly be the most effective way to go about it. And I think I'd enjoy playing a game where that happened. But I wouldn't enjoy running it.

A player voice could ask for updates on a list of items. And I think I'd be fine writing in response to that. And if I find I'm not then, like anything else, Bianca can communicate that. A player, voice or not, could even assemble a tally of all the topics advised, when, and what updates there've been. I think that players as a whole would find that useful, but it could be a bit of work. Unlike the last game I probably won't share mine, just so you know.

And in the Doyalist sense in specific regard to the glazes, I was undecided at the time of writing. I was torn between finding it overly anachronistic for the 9N to already have glazing while at the same time finding seepage from chamber pots to be absolutely horrific.

The chamber pots, I am now thinking, are probably a use pots get put to when they accidentally get some degree of glazing from the manner in which they're fired but aren't best suited to other tasks. And maybe some people's chamber pots seep and that's awful but these people live in the low-to-middle bronze age in minimally-governed collectives and lots of things about their lives are awful. That's still shaky as shit but it's the best I've got right now and the work can move past that. It doesn't even have to come up in the canon of Bianca's words.

But unlike glassmaking, for example, ash glazing is really straightforward and just about anyone who pays attention to their process and product has a good chance of figuring out what they're doing wrong and how to do it better. So unofficially, yeah, glazing is fine.

To be clear, I'm not going to make a habit of passing information around Bianca like this. So I advise against making a habit of expecting it.

As always, thanks for playing, everyone.
The main reason I asked OOC is because I didn't in fact know if it was deliberate left from the after timeskip summary, or if you'd forgotten about it, which is perfectly possible with such lengthy turns. I appreciate the clarification that it was left out because Bianca didn't think to mention it.
[X] [Cacophony] Demonic Spoon

"What would you advise?"
[X] [Leave] Pretyranny Tour

I believe I have made my opinions on the pressing need to conquer cities clear before.

"I mean to spend five years at this, but I could spend more. What say you?"
[X] [Term] 5 years

"And I will leave First Singer Huo in charge, as before. But when the people do not take her word as mine, what should she do?"
[X] [Reply] Keep a record for Bianca's return

Oftentimes to humans, knowing that their complaint has been heard and will be passed along to the one they view as the highest authority is as important to them as the complaint itself. In this way you will soothe their egoes, and cement your own ultimate authority. Of course, the problem is the workload related to this, but all things carry prices, as the demonic proverbs go.

You must understand Bianca, as a Demon I have needs. Needs that can only be sated by you describing to me how the making of ink has gone. The smells you understand.

And the knowledge of glazing I have so generously endowed upon you, has it been useful?
"The hounds of the Nine Nations serve a number of purposes, Demon, and have come to have differing shapes and dispositions better suited to those purposes. Wardogs, especially those of the tribe of Tash, are larger and more relentless in a struggle. Hunting dogs track and run better. Guard dogs raise alarm more readily and are overall more suspicious. And the dogs that watch herd are of necessity better at keeping company with sheep and cattle while being light sleepers as guard dogs are. When Sleomjash Tribe came to the Free People, they brought with them lanky hounds that kept up with chariots at any speed slower than a full charge, and there is some sign of those still in the hunting dogs of the Sleomjash and Lan tribes. But I think those dogs were suited to certain chariot-ridden hunts on the plains the Sleomjash came from, and not the lands of the Nine Nations.
and also many beasts of burden that are like horses, but different and also louder.
Of Dogs and Donkeys:
Most enlightening. Perhaps take of the hunting and wardogs to create your own specific breed of dog with a distinctive appearance to guard your hoard and track stolen treasure? Having a breed of "Bianca Dogs" who can track and take down any thief would be good for your prestige and further add to the legend of your hoard no?

As to the fake horses, they sound to be donkeys. Useful creatures those. They can interbreed with horses to produce sterile offspring. This is far more likely to occur from a male donkey mating with a female horse, with the resulting offspring from such a pairing being known as mules. The reverse, a male horse mating with a female donkey to produce a hinny, is possible, but such matings are less likely to result in offspring and harder to bring about. Hinnies are generally also less useful than mules.

Mules are good work animals, combining some of the better traits of horses and donkeys. You may test this to see how you feel about it.

Donkeys can help guard sheep to a certain extent, and reportedly have a calming effect on nearby nervous horses if pastured with them.

"Burgeck Tribe has brought me a tribute of glass. It is greenish and murky in its ingot form. But when they break it up and cut it like gems they can choose the best pieces, like any precious stone. And so I have a fine crown of silver and glass, which I find suites me. I may wear it for a few years. They have tried, again, to hide evidence of their failures, but I know that many of their attempts do not produce ingots of glass and that they do not know why. Before you tell me of the uses of glass, voices, you may need to tell me more of its making.
Glass
I will once again repeat my request for more information. What is the nature and details of their failures? Do they sometimes fail and sometimes succeed while using the same type of sand with the same type of soda from the same place and the same type of lime in the same furnace with the same fuel?

If not, then the problem does not appear to be with the process itself, but with what they are using to make. The most likely cause of the problem is the Soda, as various plants, even of the same type, will tend to vary widely in quality depending on where they're growing. The second most likely culprit is the sand, which can also have large differences from region to region.

If you want consistent results, you should use a consistent process and consistent ingredients.

However, even in one batch some crucibles may succeed in making glass and some may not. This is perfectly normal. The failed, semi-melted proto-glass can be ground up and mixed in for the next firing, and can result in better quality glass.

If there is a large variance in success even when everything else is constant, rather than merely some failures with every firing, then I would like to request a thorough explanation on the exact process that is being carried out, and a description of the furnaces being used, before I can help more definitively.

If all else fails however, increase the heat and increase the firing time, as I have previously instructed, and as a final resort, add more soda.

The greenishness of the glass is likely from iron rust, and can be counteracted to some extent by putting a layer of lime on the inside of the crucibles in which the glass is smelted.

The key point to forming glass is to be able to work with it while it is still molten. To this end a variety of metal tools that can withstand the high heat are needed. Bronze is probably the most practical in this regard.

Making Vessels

Two techniques are of interest when making vessels such as bowls, bottles, cups, goblets, jars, vases and jugs. The first is core-forming.

First, make a the core from dung, clay, sand and water, and insert the end of a metal pole into it. The core should be in the shape that you want the inside of the vessel to look like. After drying, the core may be further carved and filed to gain the final shape. Once finished, the core should be fired in a kiln similar to pottery, with the pole sticking out of the entrance.

Second, make glass as normal, but while it is still molten in the furnace, dip the core at the end of the long metal pole into the crucible of molten glass to cover the core in glass. Then remove the pole from the furnace. The vessel can be rolled on a flat surface such as a stone tabletop to smoothen and flatten the outside.

At this point, the basic vessel is complete, but you may shape the outside of the vessel with metal tongs and pincers, reheating it in the furnace as needed, or press it inside two half pottery molds to achieve a desired shape.

Handles can be added to the vessels by dipping a second metal pole into the molten glass in a crucible and dabbing the molten glass onto the heated vessel, stretching and shaping it with tongs as desired.

Once done, let the vessel cool slowly in a low heat oven. Once cooled pull out the pole, and scrape out the core to leave behind a useful vessel. Glass vessels should not leak if everything was done correctly, and do not react with many things that other materials might react with, like acid.

A method to make bowls is to remove a crucible from the furnace with a pair of long metal tongs while the metal is still molten and poured out in a shallow basin to form flat planes, which can then be heated on a mound in a furnace to form a bowl, or directly put into windows in houses to keep out the wind while still letting in light.

Alternatively, make a mound of sand outside the furnace and remove the crucible while the glass is viscous and fluid, but not too runny, and pour the glass directly onto the mound outside the furnace so that it will slowly flow over it into a bowl shape and then solidify into a bowl.

Greenhouses

It is possible to make special houses entirely from panes of glass on a wooden frame, that will be hotter inside than the surroundings due to letting in heat but keeping out cold wind. This is useful for growing certain types of plants that don't do well in the cold.

Casting Glass

Like metal, glass may be poured into a mould to make solid shapes. This might be most useful in the making of lenses which can increase the apparent size of objects viewed through it. Make moulds for round glass plates which slightly bulge out from the center at each side, that is to say convex, and they should function as magnifying lenses to some degree or other.

"I also have in my hoard dark stones which cling to each other, but only in certain configurations. In a differing configuration they struggle against being made to touch. They were stronger, I think, when they first came to me. I do not know the nature of their manner and would like to learn more. And I will tell the people to be on the lookout for such things, though surely they already are. No one could come across such a thing and not think it is a wonder. And I will show the stones to the elders of Burgeck Tribe which oversee the bloom-seeking, so that they might know at least one sort of stone to seek, in addition to the bogstones.
Lodestones:
These do indeed sound like lodestones. In addition to reacting with each other they should also react with non-rusted iron, pulling it towards themselves or being pulled towards it. This may help you test some ores for iron, but not all such ores are in a form that reacts to the lodestones, unfortunately.

As to the nature of their manner, the inner essence of the lodestones have been changed by a baptism of lightning. Both the resulting magnetism and the lightning itself are manifestations of the forces of electromagnetism, which is not currently relevant to you.

If you do manage to find more magnetite, an experiment which you might try to is to place long copper poles pointing at the sky in stormy regions, preferrably on higher ground such on a hill or mountain. Then place unprocessed magnetite rocks around the base of the copper pole, or even strap them directly to the pole.

The copper pole invites lightning to strike it, and theoretically will conduct the lightning to the magnetite which may then become new lodestones. I am not sure whether this will actually work, and await your results eagerly.
Compass:
As is hinted at by its name, lodestones are useful for orienting yourself and telling direction. If, for example, the lodestone is placed on a floating disk of wood in a bowl of water, it should consistently shift to be orientated along the earth's north-south axis due to the earth's own magnetic field.

Alternatively a piece of lodestone could be carved in a curved spoon such that it will remain balanced on the larger spoony bottom when at rest. If placed on a smooth plate, the spoon should theoretically turn to orientate itself on the north-south axis of the world.
"We have found little use for any tongue of fingers. Some among my singers took up its making as a means to communicate between themselves in secret, even though they might be in the company of others. But there's little that can be said in such a way in the small number of signs that may be given without others known that signs are being given. If any who is without hearing but still has their voice is young enough to learn to do so, they will learn to hear words in the silent motions of lips. And if they're too old to comfortably learn that, then surely they are too old to learn the tongue of fingers. And how would that work? All those around them would also need to know hand-signs. I do not understand when this would be useful. And my singers, though there are many among them fascinated by any chance to be clever, have found no case in which it is worth the trouble.
Sign-language:
Those who lose their hearing when they are older can still read if they were taught, and can learn the tongue of fingers from another who knows it, who can write down the meanings for each sign, and point to it before or after showing the sign to the person learning. Then this could also be taught to that person's close family so they can talk to their loved one, or serve as an interpreter with outsiders.

Of course, there is much to be said for every person having at least some competence in a shared sign language. While yes, overall spoken communication is capable of a greater range of meaning and is more convenient, there are often situations in which making noise is inconvenient, or existing noise makes it impossible for you to hear each other.

Two new parents might sign at each other to avoid waking the baby, people near a waterfall or a blacksmith hammering on an anvil might sign becauase they cannot hear each other's words, you already know the use of sign language in hunting, and of course in combat, and it is also useful when in diplomacy, when dealing with outsiders you may speak to them and also communicate vital information with each other, like asking if we have enough glass tokens to buy all of their fine spears, for example.

Or perhaps something like the icehouse spirits may happen again, but this time the spirits require silence in their presence or they will attack people. Certainly stranger things seem to be possible with magic.

The main utility to my mind however, is keeping people who lose their hearing useful, because a large amount of resources is invested into raising every single person, and thus it is imperative to get as much work and use out of them as possible, for as long as possible.

You will not truly lose anything great by not developing sign language however.
"Additionally, there is at least one matter of what I believe to be an unnoticed gap in information. If woven cloth is cut, its edges will fray in time and especially with washings. For this reason, knitting is preferred for shapes of cloth such as socks and leggings. You state so plainly, though, that a tunic-shape should be cut from woven cloth and sewn to itself. So perhaps you know something of how fraying may be prevented. In the immediate, Burgeck will make do.
Overcast Stitching:
The solution to this is thankfully relatively simple. Fold the edge of the fabric over itself slightly, forming a small edge which you then stitch into place by hand, using a bone or metal needle if you have such. Needles being thin, sharp tools with a point at one end and a small hole or eye at the other, which thread is pushed or threaded through and tied into knot too large to go back through the hole. The needle is then pushed through the fabric and guides the thread behind it.

Proposition: encourage and advise people to create bathhouses. A bathhouse is a stone building owned by the whole village, able to be well-heated with chimneys even during winter, where all healthy people can wash themselves and their clothes in warm, well-heated water, if conditions in their own houses are less well-suited for that. A few outhouses for common use could be added outside. Only healthy people should be allowed inside, to not contaminate bathhouse with bad germs. A concrete floor that is clean and can be easily washed would be nice, and of course big containers with frequently changed and heated water. Keeping ill people safely away, bathhouses clean and constantly bringing fresh water and removing dirty water should be custom - I heard once about great lovers of baths, the Romans, but they lacked the germ theory and thus sometimes their bathhouses promoted the spread of illness instead of preventing illness.
Bathhouses are a waste of resources.

The distance from water should be decent, at least like 32 average human feet. After many years full pit latrine can be either buried, or emptied for use in the compost pile, though this would be unhealthy and dangerous work.
"You were right and many people have come to prefer emptying their bladder and bowels into a covered pit outside their home, into which the chamberpot is also emptied. And if one pit comes close to being filled, if it was not dug deep enough, the squatting place overhead can be moved and the pit emptied by slaves and dug deeper. There will be problems, I think, when certain disused and poorly looked after squatting places rot in their timbers. Then some unfortunate who does not know they are the last person to enter the place will fall and, if they do not die in the falling, will be buried by broken timber in something like the worse place to be buried. But the people will learn and do mostly better afterward.
Cholera
Naive! Bianca, I strongly urge you to promulgate a new law forbidding the digging of pit latrine within a hundred feet of wells used for drinking water, and stating that pit latrines may not be dug into the groundwater, the depth of the soil where water seeps from the dirt as in wells. Otherwise many sicknesses will spread from the feces to the water, contaminating it and sickening those who drink from the water wells.

For pits that are emptied, a system of two paired pits may be considered. Once one pit is filled, usage moves to the second pit, when the second pit is close to full, the first pit is emptied, and once the second pit is full, usage moves back to the first pit and so on.

By giving the feces time to decompose, it will be significantly safer for the slaves. A healthy slave is a good slave after all, since then there is then less risk of them spreading diseases to other people.

"I don't know if I could kill a god by myself. But I don't plan to. All of the gods who have died were killed by people. Those were clever people, people in great numbers, and people with cunning strikes from ambush. But they were only people, and they killed gods. Hawk hides somewhere among the Fisher People. Hare rarely leaves the underworld. Fish may already be slain, so long have pleas to Her gone unanswered. Wolf is… as wolves which are not gods are, skittish and everready to bolt but also to strike. Only Rorqual faces every challenger who travels to the depths to seek Her, breaking their boats and crushing them. Aside from Rorqual, each acts with the knowledge that they can be killed at any time and not as though it is an impossible and unexpected doing.
Then we seem to have a goal for the distant future. Make great ships of metal, armed with spear-launchers to hunt whales and sail to meet Rorqual upon the high seas. No doubt her blubber shall be delicious.
 
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[X] [Cacophony] CraftingDragon

Well met again Bianca, this is the voice of Dragon. I will again try to answer your questions, and in the end give my advise on matters at hand.

About cloth, weaving etc..

I had a feeling you might not have as wide cloth as in my description, and using smaller pieces. All fabrics in the same direction will be fine until you master the wider loom that I will try to explain. First to your easier question:

The fraying of the edge of the fabric: It is true that fabric frays when cut and used, the amount of fraying depends on your weave (the pattern your threads goes in the fabric, tough most of them fray at least a little). To protect your clothes from this you should do something called hemming. The idea is to fold the edge of the fabric first once and then again so that the edge of the fabric is hidden inside the second fold. This is then sewn fast like this with a stitch you want, for example putting the thread just half way trough the the outermost layer will make the seam hidden. Also when sewing seams in your fabric they will be more durable if both edges of the fabric are fastened. So when sewing a seam you could first sew the seam leaving some edge to the both fabrics and then turn both edges flat on their pieces and sew them either turned like in the hem or unturned, this will lessen fraying. You can use something flat and hard and smooth like a slip of smoothed horn or bone to drag over the fold of the fabric to make it fold more sharply.

Keep in mind that these explanations are made with the tough of only one layer of fabric, but you can also fold several layers together. In the gambeson with multiple layers it might be enough to turn the outer layer/layers around the rest instead of turning all to not get too thick of a seam. The important thing is just to hide and fasten all the edges of the fabric.
A hem could be at least as wide as your smaller fingers, but it can be even wider, some extra fabric in hems and seams will make it possible to make clothes bigger when needed by opening and moving the seams, or they can be moved inward to make them smaller.

I do not know of your knitted leggings, if this word is the same as for us, made from loops with long needles without holes. Similar have been used where I come from for smaller things like socks, mittens and hats, but not for leggings. Won't it unravel from a hole the first time you fall and scrape a hole in the fabric?
More than knitting for the socks and things there have been used a method called "needle-binding", as a knitted thing will start to unravel when broken, where a needle-bound wont, this I think will however bee a lesson for another time.

I think the loom you are describing is something I would call a backstrap loom, which is nice in the way that you can move it easily, but the fabric you get is not that wide. There is many possible looms, but I have chosen one to try to describe called the Warp-Weighted loom, it is a standing frame and hard to move but you can get fabric as wide as a man is long. There are other looms as well, but I chose this as it wont take up too much room and is still easy to explain with only words and no pictures.

I will now try to explain a new loom called a Warp-Weighted loom: This is a upright standing loom, that you can not really move around with you as the one you have had before, but it will make it possible for you to make bigger. fabrics. I am not an expert on weaving myself, so bear with me, and ask your weavers and builders for help in trying to interpret my instructions.
I will first define some words in the instruction, so we talk about the same part, and for my fellow voices to understand what I am saying too:
Warp: The support threads, that goes in the direction of the fabric, these will go vertically and have weights in the lover end to keep them taunt.
Weft: The threads that is passed between the warp to get fabric, these will go horizontally.

Next the pieces of the frame:
Beam: This is maybe the hardest piece to construct. The beam will be lying Horizontally highest up in the frame. The length of this will decide on how wide the fabric can become, I suggest not making your first try more than twice the width of your current loom, and then make wider ones when you see if you get the design working. In wide fabrics you might need more than one weaver.
To make the beam you take a even width piece of wood, around the width of the arm, so that it is wide enough to not bend from the weight of the fabric but thin enough so that it is possible to lift. then, not on all of the width you want to make a channel.
Into the channel you want to fasten a much thinner piece of wood, so make the size of it so that the edge of this next piece fits but is not loose. This thin thing should have holes drilled to it evenly. in the other edge. Now fasten the thin piece of wood into the beam so that you can see both ends of the holes (they should not get into the beam). Use glue to hold this in place.
If you don't want to fasten pieces into each other with glue, you can instead make the form of the beam so that it is thinner in the other edge, instead of completely round, we call this a teardrop shape. and drill the holes in this thinner part, the holes will be a bit deeper so will think the one from two pieces will be easier to use. The width of the area with holes will be the width of the fabric you will be able to use
Close to both ends of the beam you could make thinner parts to make the beam not slide to the side. These will go into hooks on the uprights which I will explain next. These is not on every design I have seen so they are not mandatory, but it will make everything more stable.
When weaving you might want longer things than here, that is achieved by wrapping the ready made fabric around the beam, to do this you want to fasten a rod to the end/ends of the beam, this way the beam will not be able to turn by itself as the rod will stop it fro rolling by touching the wall.

The Uprights: You need 2 of these. They will be the vertically standing beams of your loom, the length depends on how high loom you want and how big an angle they will have when they lean. Keep in mind you want to be able to reach the top. And making a loom shorter than a man is not really useful. If you do not need to move the loom put the lover ends of the uprights into the ground, or earth floor of the house, make the lower end so that wen they slightly lean against the wall the bottom end is flat on the ground.
The thickness of these can be again like an arm, but they can be wider. They should not bend under the weight of the beam and a fabric hanging from the beam.
Now on the top of the Uprights make by fastening some pieces of woods "hooks" where the beam can rest, So that when the uprights are leaning against the wall you can put the beam highest up resting on the hooks. If you made the beam have thinner part close to the edges these should go into the hooks.
Next make some holes in the upright, starting from a bit under the hooks with a bit less of a foot length distance of each other. It is important that the hooks and the holes are on the same heights on both of the uprights and facing outward from the wall.

Now to get some stability take a rod of wood, do not have to be as thick as the other beams, take a piece that is around as long as the beam and fasten it to the uprights around 1.5 foot from the ground. It should be fastened so that the uprights are on the same distance of each other here at the bottom as they are at the top with the beam resting on them. This is called the Shed Rod

Next let's get back to the holes in the upright: You want to make some Heddle rod supports; The hole in the upright should be big enough for this to fit.
Make a piece of wood that is round in the other end to fit the hole in the upright and in the other end is of a shape so that when there is one of these in both sides of the upright on the same height they can keep a rod in place.. You might want more than 2 of these but you do not need to fasten them all, they should be possible to move from one hole to another, to get it on different heights. Now you can put a Heddle rod, that is just a rod of wood, laying from one support to another. The heddle rod support should have more than one notch where the heddle rod can lie, so that the threads do not pull it closer. In an easy weave it is enough wit just close to the uprights and farther from the uprights, but to get more interesting weaves for example 3 different distances could be good.

You will still need weights, these can be bags with sand, or burned clay with a hole in the middle or something similar, try to keep all of them of the same weight.

Now when you have a loom, you can warp the loom.
There is many ways to do this, and I am sure your weavers will get a hang of it, as it is not too different from your loom, so I will mostly give some pointers, but not go too much into details.

firstly you want to fasten your warp to the beam, you can sew the warp to the beam using to help the holes you have there, the warp thread should not go trough the holes, instead this should be done with a different thread, you can do this either by sewing the warp or using tablet weaving or similar technique that that you use to make bands with. Just see that they are secure and even.

How the warp is divided depends on your weave. In my instruction I will refer to the basic dividing in 2 way, but in other weaves you can get different nice patterns in the fabric, as your weavers might know.


Now when the top is fastened into beam you want to divide the threads in 2 to the front and back warp the back threads should go behind the shed rod and the front warp in front of it, then weights should be fastened into the threads a weight in a bunch of thread, the bunch of thread should only contain threads from back or from the front (or from one "group" of thread if you use a different pattern with more than 2 groups of threads). The weight should be just over the floor with the rest of the length of the warp knot into a bunch maybe 15-20 threads in one bunch. (The warp can be longer than from the beam to the floor, and needs to be if you want a longer fabric). Then you take a thread, fasten it to the upright and with it "chain the warp" which means you take all back threads and with the thread fasten them evenly and this fastened chain to both ends of the upright (loops around the threads should be enough). This will keep them hanging evenly. Do the same thing to the front group (and all the others you have).
Next you want to fasten the back warp to the heddle beam trough the front warp fasten a chord to every back thread and the other end to the warp. This gives you the second shed.
Now take your weft and pull it between the warp with a shuttle, as in your loom. then moving the heddle rod to a notch farther away from the uprights on the heddle rod supports the threads will switch and you can pull the shuttle trough again. Here as in your weave you want to beat the thread into the wave with a batten or something similar.

When you have woven a bite you can wrap the loom on the beam by turning the beam and thus lifting the weave upward, loosen some more warp from the weights to have them still dangling close to the floor.

if you have problems with this design or any other instructions please try to give as detailed descriptions as possible on the problems for us voices to be able to help.

Here is the English links I used to write on the loom, I used some other sources as well.
construction:
Constructing a Warp-Weighted Loom
warping:
Warping the Loom



On the making of thread Black Cat is already explaining to you about the spinning wheel. I would just like to add, that the time when it will really be useful is the second step in the mechanization that is yet not explained. Without going to detail I will just say that it is possible to add a mechanism where pushing with a foot on a piece of wood will make the wheel turn without using a hand to turn it. I will not go into detail on this at this time.


On the matter of Erweh: It is true that he has set himself against you, but still I will advise to use cunning in these matters as much as possible, It seem to have gone well this far.

The dark stones clinging to each other are doing it because of a force we call magnetism, if you try they will probably cling to your iron as well.

On the growing of plants from far away places
: When talking about these things it could be good to know about a new concept called "Climate". It is similar to weather but still not. When you talk about weather you talk about the everyday temperature of the day and cloudiness of the sky, like "today the weather is warm and sunny", when talking about climate you talk about how the weather usually are. Like if I have understood correctly you live in a place where the climate is cold snowy winters and warm, but not hot summers with rain quite evenly happening around the year, please correct me if this is not so.
As have been explained some plants might come from a different climate like "warm and wet all year around", and these will not grow well outside in your climate. That is why when getting new seeds trying to get them from similar climates (which yes you can usually find west and east more than in the south). Also usually plants from colder climates is easier to get growing in yours than those from warmer.
I can sadly not help you with the secrets of glass, but when you get your glass production working I can give some ideas on how to get plants from warmer climates to grow at your home.

Instead of burning the field after harvest you could also just turn it again and let the germs break down the plant pieces left after the harvest.

The watermill saw:
I do not remember what exactly were said by this when it was explained, but making a saw round like a plate or shield with the teeth on its rim could be easier to get working well than the knife -like saw. The saw plate would be spinning all the time in one direction cutting the wood.

On your problems with sailing and boatbuilding: Could you try to give some better description on the issues with the boats so that I can try to help.
If the problem is that the boat falls over try to make it wider and add some heavy stones to the bottom of the boat (under a floor), as to not break your leg on them).

Now to the matters at hand:

[x] [Leave] Go to Burgeck and correct their missteps
But if you have more time than needed, or just want a break from the Burgeck, then travel to other tribes as well. For example checking on the problems with Zouchaud's boats could be worth your while as well.

[x] [Term] 5 years
I would say 5 years is enough for now. After that go back and see how your people are faring, and if all is well you can go away for another 5 years, maybe with a 1-2 year break between.

[X] [Reply] There is a new idea: If Servant and Huo share the same solution, then the solution is undisputably valid, but if they don't come to an agreement they could send the petitioner to Bianca for "higher ruling", possibly with an need for additional tribute for possibly wasting her time.

So have Huo and Servant discuss difficult matters with each other.

- A better mill than the monjolo
- How to fix the glass problems
 
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[x] [Reply] Still open for opinions, I would like an opinion where we realise the fact that Huo is just a person and might make mistakes, and things could be taken to Bianca if important. For example if Servant and Huo has the same solution, then the solution is probably valid, but if they don't come to an agreement they could send the petitioner to Bianca for "higher ruling", possible with an need for additional tribute for possibly wasting her time.

Excellent whisper, Dragon. I added exactly that now. Thank you for your great idea.

Salt
Did you know? You can get salt by boiling seawater until it's dry, with the white residue which is left behind being salt.

They do that, even without boiling and with natural evaporation of seawater. It was mentioned a long time ago.
Adhoc vote count started by liberty90 on May 31, 2019 at 1:21 PM, finished with 20 posts and 5 votes.

  • [X] [Leave] Go to Burgeck and correct their missteps
    [X] [Term] 5 years
    [X] [Leave] Pretyranny Tour
    [X] [Term] 10 years
    [X] [Cacophony] CraftingDragon
    [X] [Reply] There is a new idea: If Servant and Huo share the same solution, then the solution is undisputably valid, but if they don't come to an agreement they could send the petitioner to Bianca for "higher ruling", possibly with an need for additional tribute for possibly wasting her time.
    [X] [Cacophony] liberty90
    [X] [Reply] "Here is a stone. Speak to it for all the good it will do you."
    [X] [Cacophony] Ciber
    [X] [Reply] They may then go to Burgeck and petition you where you are. If they are willing to make the trip the matter might actually be worthy of your personal attention.
    [X] [Reply] They may cast and carry their own record of their complaint
    [x] [Reply] Still open for opinions, I would like an opinion where we realise the fact that Huo is just a person and might make mistakes, and things could be taken to Bianca if important. For example if Servant and Huo has the same solution, then the solution is probably valid, but if they don't come to an agreement they could send the petitioner to Bianca for "higher ruling", possible with an need for additional tribute for possibly wasting her time.
 
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They do that, even without boiling and with natural evaporation of seawater. It was mentioned a long time ago.
Now that you mention it I do recall something to that effect. Probably why I didn't mention it in previous turns. But with the large time gap I forgot that factoid, got reminded of salt while searching for glass making videos, and decided that salt is always useful and added it in. :p
 
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Demon. I also see a contradiction, at first you point out to me that mass-production of glass may be impossible for hundreds of years, and then you suggest... glass greenhouses. A few glass windows, to allow light inside of the building without allowing heat to escape during winter, may be possible if we explain how to make reasonably flat and transparent glass, but whole houses made out of glass? For growing vegetables? Eeeeew... I don't think so, i mean not now and not for a long time.
 
Demon. I also see a contradiction, at first you point out to me that mass-production of glass may be impossible for hundreds of years, and then you suggest... glass greenhouses. A few glass windows, to allow light inside of the building without allowing heat to escape during winter, may be possible if we explain how to make reasonably flat and transparent glass, but whole houses made out of glass? For growing vegetables? Eeeeew... I don't think so, i mean not now and not for a long time.
Growing vegetables in greenhouses is of course impractical. I was considering high-return for lower volume plants such as spices. For example saffron. Greenhouses do not need to be large after all.
 
Fired clay tablets, wax tablets for temporary stuff, alphabetic writing, arabic-style numbers. Research to create parchment is ongoing. Do you need to know anything else?
What sort of filtration do they have, if at all? Do they have wire mesh, plant fibers, fabric filtration, etc? I'm hoping we can bypass parchment and move straight to high-grade paper, with the appropriate agricultural techniques needed to sustain the forestry supply. Will probably still need Leather or Parchment as a stopgap, tho
 
What sort of filtration do they have, if at all? Do they have wire mesh, plant fibers, fabric filtration, etc? I'm hoping we can bypass parchment and move straight to high-grade paper, with the appropriate agricultural techniques needed to sustain the forestry supply. Will probably still need Leather or Parchment as a stopgap, tho
They have fabric and plant fiber iirc. Which can presumably be stretched over frames to use as a filter. I've suggested this to Bianca for sifting sand for glass but no idea if they actually did it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I doubt the Nine Nations have the metallurgic knowhow to create wire meshes.
 
They have fabric and plant fiber iirc. Which can presumably be stretched over frames to use as a filter. I've suggested this to Bianca for sifting sand for glass but no idea if they actually did it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I doubt the Nine Nations have the metallurgic knowhow to create wire meshes.
Well, theoretically, it should be fairly simple. Cast a thin sheet of metal in clay a poke a fuck ton of holes in it. Wouldn't last as long, and would take a while to make, but would probably suffice for some degree of paper production. Of course, the sheet would need to be perfectly smooth and clear of imperfections and bubbling...

Feh, I might just wait until their metallurgy gets up to par and talk about primitive Precision Machining instead. Precise measuring devices should allow for a better accounting of assets.
 
They have fabric and plant fiber iirc. Which can presumably be stretched over frames to use as a filter. I've suggested this to Bianca for sifting sand for glass but no idea if they actually did it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I doubt the Nine Nations have the metallurgic knowhow to create wire meshes.

I mean, in theory, wire isn't that hard to make if I recall correctly? Use a crucible with a stoppered hole at it's lowest point with the diameter of whatever wire you want to make. Once the metal is molten, unstopper it, and let the rope of molten metal drop into a water basin. I guess you need to set things up so that the fire heating your crucible and the drainage hole and water basin don't get in each other's way, and the stopper needs to be fireproof and tightly fit into the hole while being removable, but those are solvable problems.
 
Well, theoretically, it should be fairly simple. Cast a thin sheet of metal in clay a poke a fuck ton of holes in it. Wouldn't last as long, and would take a while to make, but would probably suffice for some degree of paper production. Of course, the sheet would need to be perfectly smooth and clear of imperfections and bubbling...

Feh, I might just wait until their metallurgy gets up to par and talk about primitive Precision Machining instead. Precise measuring devices should allow for a better accounting of assets.
I mean, in theory, wire isn't that hard to make if I recall correctly? Use a crucible with a stoppered hole at it's lowest point with the diameter of whatever wire you want to make. Once the metal is molten, unstopper it, and let the rope of molten metal drop into a water basin. I guess you need to set things up so that the fire heating your crucible and the drainage hole and water basin don't get in each other's way, and the stopper needs to be fireproof and tightly fit into the hole while being removable, but those are solvable problems.

I didn't say that it's impossible for them to make wire, just that they currently don't have the know-how, just like they previously didn't have the know-how to make monjolos. By all means, teach them how to make wire or metal meshes if you think it's useful! :)
 
For the those saying we should correct the missteps of the Bugreck, I would like too state my opinion that spreading out our territory away from the growing threat of the Ghost Forest is far more important than perfecting various toys, my own toys included among that number. I would strongly urge you to reconsider. Iron will not be useable for quite some time, and even then it would take even more time to make a sizeable amount of weapons or armour from it. We should scout out the targets, and then strike like the wrath of the gods we plan to murder.
 
Wow. None of you guys have ANY idea how wire is actually made.
Wire Drawing :
You begin by cutting strips from a sheet of metal. Then draw those strips through a succession of ever smaller holes in a drawing plate until they are the desired size. The drawing plate is typically made of the hardest available substance. Often high carbon tool steel or even diamond for extremely small wires. To fit the wire into the next smaller hole you hammer it into shape. The holes in the drawing plate need to be tapered and well lubricated for best results. Drawing can be made easier by heating the wire, but cold working the metal results in a stronger product.

Sluice :
Regardless, wire mesh is not a great way to sort sand. For coarse filtering just run through loosely woven baskets. To finely separate your sand by particle size, use something like a gold sluice. A flat sided trough with regularly bumps on the bottom through which a mixture of water and sand is directed. The water should flow from a stream into a settling tank where it comes almost to a standstill, allowing any foreign particles suspended in the water to settle out. The the water is let out through an outlet half way down the tank walls with a gate to precisely control the waters speed. A hopper above this inflow feeds the sand we wish to filter.
By carefully controlling the inflow of water and sand, you can cause heavier particles to sink and collect on the bumps, while lighter particles are carried further before being deposited. Also useful for concentrating metals from finely crushed ores.
 
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