I will not concede anything on Varys except for the fact that his only allegiance is to stability. He is fine, as long as we are for stability.

Bullshit, If you think that you evidently haven't read the books. "Mr. Stability" killed Kevan Lannister in ADWD for do to good a job at fixing the realm. He never told Robert about the Twincest despite the fact he damn well knew about it.
 
Varys is only for stability when its achieved by a dragon (his preference for a red or black dragon remains to be determined). Granted, he's definitely not an anarchist psychopath like Baelish, so he's preferable in that context, but relying on Varys is asking for trouble just as much as relying on Baelish would.
 
I wrote my suggestions as a means to reform the feudal society in the first place by getting everyone united.
No, what you wrote was a brilliant way to undermine the authority of the Iron Throne even further after the train wrecks of the Reigns that were Aegon V's and Aerys II's. There are hardly any Tarayrens left, the LPs are forming an alliance to further lame the King's power so dear old dad can't do any more damage, and in general, our dynasty has never been weaker. Now is not the time to launch a series of reforms even more invasive and provocative than Egg's comparatively minor and benign laws. I mean, best case the whole thing just fails and we look like morons. Worst case scenario there's a civil war.
Lord Fatfuck of Nowhere being a prick should not mean the King is unable to excercise his sovereignty on his own realm.
And that's just the thing, you clearly don't understand the situation. This attitude didn't really work when the Targaryen's had dragons, it's sure as shit not going to work now.

I will not concede anything on Varys except for the fact that his only allegiance is to stability. He is fine, as long as we are for stability.
And that's not even getting to this bit. Good shit, man. Read the damn books. He buys slaves, cuts out their tounges, and uses them as spies before killing them so they can't learn the language and this try to escape. He was heavily involved with the Rebellion, and no doubt planned to cause further chaos and bloodshed so that F!Aegon could ride and save the day. You are wrong. Utterly so.
 
I generally agree. However, I would argue that ASoIaF has regularly demonstrated that people there get started earlier than us, or our feudal ancestors. Ned and Stannis were young men, basically boys during the Rebellion but were put in charge of large bodies of men and ably proved themselves. ITTL there's no Rebellion (as yet) but that doesn't necessarily mean that Stannis, or anyone else, is 'unproven'. Conflict in this world is not hard to come by.
No reason as yet. However, we are/will be in a position to hear from Jon Arryn, Lyanna, and his potential spouse Ashara about him. And dumber appointments have been made than 'the husband/fiance/partner of a close friend to the family'.
Sure, but we're establishing our initial Small Council. We can appoint Stannis to something later on, but on our first days of ruling it makes no sense. Same thing with Ned.
Putting aside for the moment my reluctance to see a man with nothing beyond a whistling wind between his ears elevated so high,
I mean, he's a fucking Lord-Paramount. There are not many higher places for him to even climb. I also don't really get your beef with Mace. Sure, he's a moron, but the man's like a 3 out of 10 on levels of westerosi detestability. The man's predictable, easily appeased, and brings with him the Reach which is easily the strongest kingdom in Westeros. Additionally, the 'no legitimacy' issue for the Tyrells has honestly become little of an issue for them. It's been three hundred years and they've deftly woven their bloodline through pretty much every major player in the region besides the Rowan's, who are just regularly loyal. Having them in our corner is important, as with them and the Lannister's we have the power to handle the STAB alliance.
I'm not sure what your concerns are with bringing the Tyrells into the family (Mace excluded, they all appear to be smart, cunning and [generally] decent people) and about marrying Viserys to Margaery--currently he's third in line to the throne and on track to be far less of a douchecanoe than IOTL.
I asked you to think about why exactly I'd be alarmed about a marriage between Viserys and Margaery, and that clearly went nowhere. So let me spell it out. The Tyrells are powerful, ambitious, and really only hamstrung by Mace's incompetent leadership. Otherwise they're in a perfect position to leverage their influence, and they will do so, no matter how 'nice' they are. So it would be a terrible idea to give them such a perfect method to claim the Iron Throne. You were talking about how Viserys is 'only' third in line for the Iron Throne, but you gotta understand that this is just the law. In the end so long as you can say you've the blood and an army, you can start a war to be king, and even assuming Viserys turns out much better than his canon self, there's no gurentee his children won't get ideas. I'm also not happy about giving them a claim through Rhaenys, but ultimatly we need them and it's much less of a potent claim, if not by much. The only claim Robert Baratheon has is that his grandmother was one of Egg's daughters, but he made that work.
 
I also don't really get your beef with Mace. Sure, he's a moron, but the man's like a 3 out of 10 on levels of westerosi detestability. The man's predictable, easily appeased, and brings with him the Reach which is easily the strongest kingdom in Westeros.
I'm a fan of competence and intellect. I don't have a problem with him existing or being a Lord Paramount, but draw the line at the Small Council. Frankly, 'dumb but loyal' is the opposite of a selling point for me--it makes me think of how the 'Baratheon' Lannisters operate, and in my experience 'dumb but loyal' tends to carry the side trait of 'incompetence'. Personally I'm a fan of merit.
I asked you to think about why exactly I'd be alarmed about a marriage between Viserys and Margaery, and that clearly went nowhere. So let me spell it out. The Tyrells are powerful, ambitious, and really only hamstrung by Mace's incompetent leadership. Otherwise they're in a perfect position to leverage their influence, and they will do so, no matter how 'nice' they are. So it would be a terrible idea to give them such a perfect method to claim the Iron Throne. You were talking about how Viserys is 'only' third in line for the Iron Throne, but you gotta understand that this is just the law. In the end so long as you can say you've the blood and an army, you can start a war to be king, and even assuming Viserys turns out much better than his canon self, there's no gurentee his children won't get ideas. I'm also not happy about giving them a claim through Rhaenys, but ultimatly we need them and it's much less of a potent claim, if not by much. The only claim Robert Baratheon has is that his grandmother was one of Egg's daughters, but he made that work.
I think you may be worrying too much about the Tyrells and the succession--as far as I can tell, the Rebellion only got anywhere because a.) Robert and the senior Starks were butthurt over our foolhardy actions with Lyanna, b.) Aerys was at peak levels of Aerys, and c.) Jon Arryn was more loyal to his wards than to Aerys. Any one of those factors is changed or removed and the rebellion either doesn't happen or goes nowhere. If we take actions to fracture the STAB alliance further (for instance, enlisting their families into our circle) it becomes even less likely. Once Aerys is out of the picture and we're in power, we can do a lot to shore up our succession and our power, and make successful rebellion a hazy pipe dream instead of a whispered plot.

The Tyrells are powerful and ambitious, yes, but they are neither ruthless nor reckless. More than anything else, they're patient, as you've pointed out with their careful weaving of bloodlines and family alliances--why waste blood and coin on a war you might not win and risk your heads if you can marry your scion to the future king and get in twenty-thirty years from now? Like, in canon, they could have decided to off Cersei and slip Margaery into Robert's bed, but they took the slower, safer, more methodical routes, which in the long run have probably worked out better for them.

Also, the Usurper's claim has much more to do with right of conquest and the lack of any other available candidate for the Throne than it does a tenuous blood connection. It bears remembering how much Robert is inspired by the Tudors: Henry VII had the throne by conquest alone--his 'blood legitimacy' would be laughable if it weren't so pathetic--and Henry VII & Henry VIII methodically exterminated the Plantagenet bloodline and consolidated military power in order to prevent any challengers arising the same way they did.
 
Rhaegar is a very popular and competent Prince who will be a relief to everyone after Aerys being, well, Aerys. Also, this time there is no need for a rebellion from Robert. He seems just fine with Rhaegar and is probably pissed at Lyanna instead. And Aerys even more so than canon because this time Aerys personally spited and humiliated him in front of basically the entire continent. He is probably daydreaming about Rhaegar finally finishing the deplorable cunt off. Honestly, not one Lord Paramount would oppose Aerys being overthrown and quietly dying of a suicide by several crossbow bolts to the back of the head. The reason I proposed the radical reforms is so that we can use the popularity Rhaegar has and the general relief over Aerys being dead to at least put the country on track to slowly unify. This is so that we at least have some common ground against the ICE DEMON ZOMBIE HORDE. I am very much aware of how impractical a fully professional army is for non industrial nations @LonelyWolf999 (I had to point this out since for some reason I touched a nerve on your rage boner while trying to propose the optimal long term goal). If anyone can pull it off (or at least lay the foundations), it is a Rhaegar who is a sorceror and with no civil war to deal with.
Also, Rhaegar has no IC reason to suspect any Blackfyre's even survived. As for FAegon's existence, the actual baby Aegon was just born to a very much more rationally behaving Rhaegar who also happens to be literally fucking Jon Connington, the man whose grief is responsible for FAegon's state of mind. As far as Varys is concerned, there is a very strong and promising dragon about to rise from the pile of shit that was Aerys's reign. Varys is shifty at the best of times, but he has never acted against the interest of the general public (in the long term, because he knows a dragon is the only thing that can unify culturally divided people). As far as anyone is concerned, the Blackfyre's are done for. The real threat would have been Petyr, but with no Robert's Rebellion he is a nobody lordling whose sole claims to fame is being rich and having been humiliated by Brandon Stark. In an attempt to be safe rather than story, you are throwing away a massive asset out of paranoia. I had also adressed Vary's problems with sorcery in that post. We can give him a leave of absence so he can deal with the guy who cut his balls off and he will be privately appreciative of us helping him take care of the one thorn in his ass.

End rant and moving onto more short term matters. Can we train our stewardship and try to increase our mana reserves next turn? The former is our one weak spot and we should get to the latter as early as possible due to obvious reasons.
 
I'm a fan of competence and intellect. I don't have a problem with him existing or being a Lord Paramount, but draw the line at the Small Council. Frankly, 'dumb but loyal' is the opposite of a selling point for me--it makes me think of how the 'Baratheon' Lannisters operate, and in my experience 'dumb but loyal' tends to carry the side trait of 'incompetence'. Personally I'm a fan of merit.
So this all clearly comes down to personal opinion, and an utter lack of familiarity with realpolitik. To put this in simple terms, appeasing stupid but powerful subordinates by giving them fancy positions in court that don't actually let them do much harm is a tactic as old as politics.
I think you may be worrying too much about the Tyrells and the succession--as far as I can tell, the Rebellion only got anywhere because a.) Robert and the senior Starks were butthurt over our foolhardy actions with Lyanna, b.) Aerys was at peak levels of Aerys, and c.) Jon Arryn was more loyal to his wards than to Aerys. Any one of those factors is changed or removed and the rebellion either doesn't happen or goes nowhere. If we take actions to fracture the STAB alliance further (for instance, enlisting their families into our circle) it becomes even less likely. Once Aerys is out of the picture and we're in power, we can do a lot to shore up our succession and our power, and make successful rebellion a hazy pipe dream instead of a whispered plot.

The Tyrells are powerful and ambitious, yes, but they are neither ruthless nor reckless. More than anything else, they're patient, as you've pointed out with their careful weaving of bloodlines and family alliances--why waste blood and coin on a war you might not win and risk your heads if you can marry your scion to the future king and get in twenty-thirty years from now? Like, in canon, they could have decided to off Cersei and slip Margaery into Robert's bed, but they took the slower, safer, more methodical routes, which in the long run have probably worked out better for them.

Also, the Usurper's claim has much more to do with right of conquest and the lack of any other available candidate for the Throne than it does a tenuous blood connection. It bears remembering how much Robert is inspired by the Tudors: Henry VII had the throne by conquest alone--his 'blood legitimacy' would be laughable if it weren't so pathetic--and Henry VII & Henry VIII methodically exterminated the Plantagenet bloodline and consolidated military power in order to prevent any challengers arising the same way they did.
I think you kind of missed my point here. First of all, don't make assumptions about the Tyrells. They are not genetically smart or nice or patient. They are powerful vassals, and this need to be handled as such.

On to the extended section on Robert Baratheon and STAB. I just used Bobby B as an example of how marriages through even the female line can come and bite you in the worst way. I'd be careful with using RL examples - they're not the same situation or culture. I think your point is how 'bigger army diplomacy' determines who's king, and that's absolutely correct. That's why we need to ensure we have the biggest army, and the only way to do that is through political marriages because the Crownlands aren't giving us shit.

My main issue with your plan is that you want to betroth Viserys to the Tyrells. Viserys is Aerys' son, and thus no matter what will always have a strong claim on the Iron Throne, and so will his children. You are making one very dangerous assumption in that this will never come to bite us in the ass.
 
Rhaegar is a very popular and competent Prince who will be a relief to everyone after Aerys being, well, Aerys. Also, this time there is no need for a rebellion from Robert. He seems just fine with Rhaegar and is probably pissed at Lyanna instead. And Aerys even more so than canon because this time Aerys personally spited and humiliated him in front of basically the entire continent. He is probably daydreaming about Rhaegar finally finishing the deplorable cunt off. Honestly, not one Lord Paramount would oppose Aerys being overthrown and quietly dying of a suicide by several crossbow bolts to the back of the head.
Okay, this is actually really complicated. You gotta remember that Westeros is feudal society with a different set of ethics and beliefs than the one you hold. So while just killing Aerys and being obvious about might seem perfectly fine to you, IC there's a lot more complexity to the situation. Just try to keep that in mind.
The reason I proposed the radical reforms is so that we can use the popularity Rhaegar has and the general relief over Aerys being dead to at least put the country on track to slowly unify.
That's not going to work, man. While Rhaegar is generally viewed positively that isn't nearly enough to enact 'radical reforms' - and just be clear, what you're doing isn't necessarily a reform. It's centralizing power to the crown. If you think about it in those terms, perhaps the wide resistance to such a thing will make more sense to you.
This is so that we at least have some common ground against the ICE DEMON ZOMBIE HORDE.
Yes, we are all well aware of the threat that the Others pose. You don't need to capslock. What I'm saying is that what you're proposing will do the opposite of unifying Westeros.
I am very much aware of how impractical a fully professional army is for non industrial nations @LonelyWolf999 (I had to point this out since for some reason I touched a nerve on your rage boner while trying to propose the optimal long term goal).
Oh, don't be a facetious ass. I could tell immediately that we weren't exactly going to engage in stimulating discourse, but I'd appreciate it if you don't cherry pick your points and actively distort what I'm saying and doing. 'Rageboner.' Really? And if that was the case, why did you propose it? What exactly is your 'achievable long term goal?'
f anyone can pull it off (or at least lay the foundations), it is a Rhaegar who is a sorceror and with no civil war to deal with.
Well, Rhaegar isn't a bad king. He's charismatic, well-intentioned, and widely liked. He's also an undead revenant who is being actively opposed by the order of the Maesters and whose dynasty is on its last legs. Not to mention, seeing as you use this for a point later on, how would Rhaegar have any IC inclination for large scale centralization? Where would he have any of these ideas?
Also, Rhaegar has no IC reason to suspect any Blackfyre's even survived. As for FAegon's existence, the actual baby Aegon was just born to a very much more rationally behaving Rhaegar who also happens to be literally fucking Jon Connington, the man whose grief is responsible for FAegon's state of mind. As far as Varys is concerned, there is a very strong and promising dragon about to rise from the pile of shit that was Aerys's reign. Varys is shifty at the best of times, but he has never acted against the interest of the general public (in the long term, because he knows a dragon is the only thing that can unify culturally divided people). As far as anyone is concerned, the Blackfyre's are done for. The real threat would have been Petyr, but with no Robert's Rebellion he is a nobody lordling whose sole claims to fame is being rich and having been humiliated by Brandon Stark. In an attempt to be safe rather than story, you are throwing away a massive asset out of paranoia. I had also adressed Vary's problems with sorcery in that post. We can give him a leave of absence so he can deal with the guy who cut his balls off and he will be privately appreciative of us helping him take care of the one thorn in his ass.
And then we get to this part.

...

Okay, I can tell I'm not getting anywhere here. I enjoy debating, especially on topics I know a lot about, but this is pretty clearly something you're never going to budge an inch on.

If you really want to continue this conversation, can you PM me? I think everyone would appreciate that.
 
The Most Interesting Man in the World, Part 1
The day of the Red Viper's arrival is marked by a late winter snowfall. Elia stands admiring it from the window of your breakfast room when the messenger's knock sounds at the door: the Feathered Kiss has docked, and Prince Oberyn Martell will be arriving with two of his daughters shortly.

Elia rolls her eyes. "Of course he's going to make us rush," she says, but the thought of seeing her brother still makes her smile. In actuality there is not that much work to be done – you order the main rooms of the castle to be hastily cleaned, a bedchamber prepared, extra beds added to the nursery, and so on. Elia plans meals with the head cook. Of course, both of you must reevaluate your outfits – you change your plain black coat for a fancier one, embroidered with silver thread – and when you meet Elia in the nursery you see that she is in the same dress, but with a changed hairstyle and added jewelry. Your wife is sitting down with Rhaenys in her lap, combing your daughter's hair. It is still only shoulder-length, but very fine and silky, and it curls up pleasingly at the ends. Your silver hair and Elia's black have mixed to give Rhaenys a light brown, but her dark eyes and olive skin are her mothers' through and through. The nurses have gotten her into a flower-embroidered winter dress, with thick stockings to protect against the cold. As soon as she sees you, she lets out an excited squeal and slips off her mother's lap to greet you. Smiling, her mother lets it happen. Then she looks at you and her expression becomes annoyed.

"Papa! Papa! Up!" Rhaenys is jumping by your feet, holding out her arms; you indulge her and pick her up. With that pressing business taken care of, she then informs you, "Uncle Oberyn is here!"

"He's coming to the castle soon," you tell her. "Do you remember the last time you met him? You were very small." She shakes her head.

Elia approaches. "Rhaegar," she whispers, pressing close to you, "must you always dress like you're in mourning? This is a happy day."

"I can wear black and be jovial at the same time," you say, somewhat defensively.

"It makes you look like Aegon III."

"Aegon III was a good king, and if you count stillbirths, I've lost more siblings than him. I have the right to wear black if I choose." She purses her lips and you sigh. "I just like the way it looks, Elia." She lowers her eyes and lets it go, as Rhaenys outstretches her arms in the hope of being passed to her mother.

"What, tired of me already?" you say as Elia takes your daughter. "Where's Aegon?"

"Syalla has him," she replies, referring to the pale-haired, cheerful woman who served both your children as wet-nurse. "He was ready, so she took him out for a look at the sea. He likes that, she says." It is sad to say that neither of you have much to do with your young son. But, in all fairness, he makes it hard, what with hating to be touched by unfamiliar people. Or his parents.

"I see…I suppose we're ready, then." Putting an arm around your wife, the three of you walk out toward the entrance courtyard, where you will receive a much-anticipated Dornishman.

"Dragonstone has lost none of its beauty," announces a tall figure from the gate, "and neither, I see, have its inhabitants."

"Flatterer!" Elia calls. "Come here so we can see each other properly, and then compliment us." Snowflakes still fall lightly on the stone paving, but the temperature is not cold, and you estimate that the snow will start melting as soon as it stops falling. You inspect your goodbrother as he approaches, accompanied by one small figure and tailed by a gaggle of brawny porters carrying an intriguing collection of boxes, baskets and casks. Oberyn Martell is a tall, lithe man, whose glittering black eyes stare out of an expressive - and handsome - face. Beside him walks a girl in boy's clothes who seems like nothing so much as Oberyn, awkwardly squashed down by giant's fingers to a miniature size. You search a bit for the other daughter until you realize he's carrying her, a little dark-skinned babe somewhere between Aegon and Rhaenys in age.

"Mmm, yes," he says, drawing near. "Still beautiful," he kisses Elia on the cheek, "still beautiful," he winks at you, "and YOU," he reaches out and fluffs Rhaenys's hair, causing her to squeal, "are especially beautiful. No, adorable." He smiles. "Hello your graces. Sister, brother. May I present to you my eldest and my youngest: the brave and charming Obara Sand," he indicates the rough-looking girl by his side, who has mud on her clothes for some reason, "and the very young, very curious, Sarella Sand." The child in his arms is staring at you with that wide-eyed look that babies have, baffled by the entire world. Aegon is wearing the same look.

"My father is a liar," Obara announces. "I'm not charming."

"Maybe I'm biased," he admits, ruffling her hair. She is, he mouths at you.

"Hello again, Oberyn. And it's wonderful to finally meet you," you say to young Obara. "Your father loves talking about you. I've heard that you're learning the spear?"

She nods vigorously. "Yes, and I'm very good at it! I practice every day!"

"How tall you've grown, Obara. Perhaps you'll be bigger than your father one day," says Elia. Your niece's eyes glow at the thought. "Sarella's new," Elia continues, shifting Rhaenys so she can get a better look at her youngest cousin. "Wherever did you find this one, Oberyn?"

"On my way here, actually. This isn't the first time I've used the Feathered Kiss, and my relationship with the captain turned out surprisingly fruitful! She'll be coming back to Sunspear with me and Obara," he explains. "Hello there," he says to Rhaenys, who is looking at him cautiously. "You probably don't remember me, but my name is Oberyn. I'm your uncle. That's my sister right there."

Rhaenys shakes her head. "No, this is Mama."

Oberyn raises his eyebrows. "No, that's my sister."

"No," Rhaenys insists, "this is my Mama."

"No, that's my sister," Oberyn says calmly.

"This is my Mama! Go away!" Rhaenys cries, before burying her head in Elia's shoulders. Your wife gives her brother a mild glare; he is smiling.

"That trick isn't funny, Oberyn."

"Oh? You thought it was hilarious when I did it to Obara."

"He did that to me?" Obara says, shocked and offended.

"Yes," Elia says, "but it was only funny then because you tried to hit him and you were very ineffectual. All you've done this time, Oberyn, is made Rhaenys hate you."

"I don't know if I've hurt her as badly as that. But even if I have, perhaps our relationship could be mended with a special…" He leans in closely, so that Rhaenys is sure to hear him, and whispers: "…present?"

She peeks out at him. He raises one eyebrow, then the other, then lowers both…then raises them again. Your daughter giggles. Triumphant, Oberyn smiles. "Why don't we move inside?" he asks. "This present won't do well in the cold." Oh, that's right. Snow means cold. The living people here are probably rather uncomfortable. With some embarrassment, you agree and the entire party moves toward the keep – save for Obara, who grabs a certain basket from their pile of luggage and runs to catch up with you.

Elia sets down Rhaenys as you enter – her arms are probably tired, and your daughter can walk just fine. "Balerion!" she calls, and a black cat trots out of the shadows by the walls to join his mistress. Only a kitten when she got him, Balerion is now full-grown, though that doesn't prevent your girl from picking him up in an awkward jumble of tail and legs. "I'm going to have a present, Balerion," she tells him excitedly. He squirms and she lets him back down, laughing and chasing after him.

"Rhaenys," Elia calls, "That's not a good dress for running!"

"Your daughter's lovely," Oberyn says to you. "I'm tempted to take her with me when I leave."

"What," you say, "and leave one of yours here in trade?"

He smiles. "Jokes aside, though, have you considered fostering her at Sunspear? Arianne is close to her in age – only four years older, and she will have my daughters as companions as well. And you know Doran would take excellent care of her."

"We haven't thought of such things yet," you say. "I can't say whether we'll foster her or not."

"Of course, you have years to decide. But keep Sunspear in mind – Dorne is a good place for women. I think she would bloom, there." A tug on his coat makes him turn around.

"Can I put this down now?" asks a bored-looking Obara of the large, lidded basket she's holding.

"Is that Rhaenys's present?" you ask. They nod. "We should open it in the nursery, I think. I've arranged for your daughters to sleep there as well, by the way." You call for Rhaenys and Elia, and the whole group heads to the nursery, save the cat, who runs off on his own business. Your children sleep on the first floor, to avoid any danger of falling on the stairs.

"Can I open my present now?" Rhaenys asks as soon as you arrive. Her brother fusses, and Syalla mutters a "Begging your pardon" before sitting down in her favorite chair to breastfeed him.

Oberyn passes Sarella to you – you're a little taken aback, but thankfully she seems calm – before taking the basket from his daughter. He settles down on the floor, basket resting on his crossed legs. Rhaenys joins him excitedly. He undoes the ties on the lid and lifts it away with a theatrical flourish, allowing your daughter to look inside.

"What is it?" she says, leaning over the basket. Oberyn gently pushes her back and dips a hand into the basket. It comes out, draped in a sinewy rope of velvet black.

"This," he says, "is a young female black adder from the summer isles. It's a very rare coloring." Holding the snake in one hand, he gently guides Rhaenys's fingers to pet it with the other. "You have to be gentle. This is a living thing. And never pet a snake against the scales. You should always follow them, from the head to the tail." It's a beautiful creature, you have to admit. Its scales are a black so complete they hardly seem natural; it hangs on Oberyn's hand like a piece of material cut from a starless night sky, only the thickness of your thumb. As you watch, it raises up its stubby head, a black tongue darting out to scent the room. Your daughter looks absolutely enchanted, and even Obara is watching curiously. But, well…

"Aren't adders poisonous?" Elia says, apparently thinking the same thing.

"Well, technically they're venomous," Oberyn mutters.

Elia is not having it. "Oberyn. How badly can it hurt her?"

"I brought lots of antivenom, so you never need to find out the answer."

"Oberyn!" Elia marches over to your daughter and snatches her up, dragging her away from her dangerous uncle and present.

"But I want it!" Rhaenys cries as her mother comes to stand next to you.

"Your uncle needs to explain himself," Elia says sternly.

"Look, Elia, don't be hasty. I know I promised not to bring anything poisonous as a present – I was originally going to get her a python – but I was on Koj and the dealer had this rare snake and I thought that, given her coloring, she would look so beautiful with Rhaenys. Don't you think they would look beautiful together?" His sister continues glaring at him. "These adders are very non-deadly as poisonous snakes go. They only bite when seriously provoked! And their venom is rarely fatal, especially not if properly treated."

Elia objects. "My daughter is two! Her cat brought her a dead mouse the other day, and she tried to eat it!"

"Yes, her cat! You let Uncle Lewyn give her a cat – well, those are dangerous too, with teeth and claws. This snake only has the former."

Obara pipes up: "If the princess doesn't want it, we could give the adder to Nym or Tyene."

"No! I want it!"

"I'm not giving up yet," Oberyn tells her. He looks at you, hopefully. You haven't yet offered your opinion on this issue. You think:

[ ] Let her keep the snake As long as she's supervised, and gets medical attention in the case of a bite, there should be no problem.
[ ] This is a bad idea Small children and dangerous animals should never mix.
 
Uh, handing fucking poisonous snakes to toddlers is a horrendous idea. How on earth did Oberyn think this was a good plan? Even relatively non-venomous examples can cause serious damage to children.


[X] This is a bad idea Small children and dangerous animals should never mix.
 
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Oberyn, Oberyn, Oberyn. *shakes head* Really, what made you even think that your sister or Rhaegar would accept this?

From a normal perspective, accepting this is just stupid.

From a magical perspective however....
 
[X] Let her keep the snake As long as she's supervised, and gets medical attention in the case of a bite, there should be no problem.

Proper supervision, anti-venom, teaching on how to handle animals, and magic.

These are my reasons in rough order of why this is acceptable.
 
I'm not comfortable with this, but I'll give tenuous agreement. I'm not happy with it, I could be convinced otherwise, but...

I'm certain that someone will get bit some time but it will probably be some idiot noble out-of-towner who would expect a snake to recognize their title. If Joffrey existed, he would be bitten every hour on the hour. But if its like real life European adders I'm actually not that worried. Oberyn is dead accurate about both their temper and the quality of their venom.

My advice is to not say no but to be... skeptical and reluctant. "Convince me."

If he can convince our gut instinct that, yeah, the snake is fine with her... a few hours with him and her and it... then I'd be willing to at least try and get Elia to go along with it. I wouldn't somehow try to make this a unilateral decision, Elia's voice here matters a much as ours in regard to our children, but its not the most dangerous choice she will be taking as a princess of the Iron Throne.

Either way, it will be a long time before she is carrying the thing around on her all day. Its not a two year old getting a danger noodle. Its an older child getting one and a two year old getting acclimated. And if anything happens to our little girl we get to take the Red Viper's balls and pecker to mount on our wall.

[X] Let her keep the snake As long as she's supervised, and gets medical attention in the case of a bite, there should be no problem.

I'd actually be okay with a fostering in Dorne. Those are some sharp tacks over there and they love their families. Hell, I hope we get our own court set up to the point we can foster one of his.


Fucking Dornish, man. And fuck me for thinking this.
 
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[X] This is a bad idea Small children and dangerous animals should never mix.

Nope, not even for magic.
 
[X] Let her keep the snake As long as she's supervised, and gets medical attention in the case of a bite, there should be no problem.
 
I'm certain that someone will get bit some time but it will probably be some idiot noble out-of-towner who would expect a snake to recognize their title. If Joffrey existed, he would be bitten every hour on the hour. But if its like real life European adders I'm actually not that worried. Oberyn is dead accurate about both their temper and the quality of their venom.
You found my real-life inspiration! Yes, this snake is basically a melanistic vipera berus. It was going to be a boa, like this, but I thought a poisonous snake would be more interesting...plus, this way the snake will be the right size for your daughter to wear as a stunning fashion accessory when she gets older (if you let her keep it).
 
...plus, this way the snake will be the right size for your daughter to wear as a stunning fashion accessory when she gets older (if you let her keep it).
SOLD :V

[X] Let her keep the snake As long as she's supervised, and gets medical attention in the case of a bite, there should be no problem.
 
My advice is to not say no but to be... skeptical and reluctant. "Convince me."

If he can convince our gut instinct that, yeah, the snake is fine with her... a few hours with him and her and it... then I'd be willing to at least try and get Elia to go along with it. I wouldn't somehow try to make this a unilateral decision, Elia's voice here matters a much as ours in regard to our children, but its not the most dangerous choice she will be taking as a princess of the Iron Throne.
Yep, that's my feelings in a nutshell. We shouldn't overrule Elia, but at the same time she can relax a little bit. Really, if Rhaenys is able to handle a cat and not get scratched or bitten, she can handle a (generally tolerant) snake with a similar temperament. I'm also not opposed to fostering in Dorne, but I'd lean more in favour of that if she keeps the snake. Like Oberyn says, they don't do well in cold, and since I'm guessing Rhaenys doesn't have a heatlamp it'd probably be better for the snake to be in/around Dorne while we're still not in spring/summer. How long, canonically, before we're into the warm seasons?

[X] Let her keep the snake
As long as she's supervised, and gets medical attention in the case of a bite, there should be no problem.
 
@Vocalist query: how willing/able are you to go into detail about the whole 'thrall' process?
Okay, here is what Rhaegar learned from the Others that day:

Manipulating minds and emotions is his personal magical specialty. He may have others as well.

When a bearer of the Pact of Ice raises a dead person, a hierarchical bond is established that allows the former to (attempt to) take control of the latter, root around in their memories, and other stuff.

The Others gave him advice that amounts to, "Kill them, raise them, and brainwash them into being obedient servants! All this free will is inefficient!"
 
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