You Are: A sector admiral of a strained imperium.

If we live past Imhotep debacle, we could just buy out Sword of Democracy our of the fleet with our wealth and use the "overflowing" sector budget to expedite the shit out of fleet repairs.
And possibly commission another ship or two.
I definitely agree with this plan. The onlything I would add is buy a Share with PC.
1) To keep your ship between assignments? I figure about a quarter of its cost if you are transferring to another command where a battlecruiser would be an appropriate flag vessel, half otherwise. Full cost would be if you get put in command of a fortress or a fleet academy or similar where you might only have patrol cutters or old corvettes under your command.

2) A lot depends on the current situation. If there is a full on war then you likely do not need to worry about that at all with your current track record. Also do not dismiss academy superintendent as a bad posting! It could be a way to print infinite Political Capital. A bad posting would be being sent to command a deep space fleet base on a peaceful border. Mostly this comes down to your current Political Capital, if you keep it at 100+ then you are not going to get a bad posting, if it dips, then you might have to spend 50 points (possibly going negative) to avoid it.

Also if you buy ships with political capital then you can expect to get about 1/2 of the budget increase required to maintain them in active service, the reason that you have not received this for previous ships is that you were still bringing your fleet back up to the strength it was supposed to be. Remember you had about 1/3 of your ships transferred away before you arrived without a budget cut.

To add, you cannot buy the Sword of Democracy with wealth, the navy bought her. You got half the cash they paid in doing so.

So if we can, we definitely want to try and buy out the Sword, with the lowered PC and probably the lower wealth needed since we would be sitting in it, probably about 100-150% of the cost of a regular Battlecrusier without the wait. I could accept that. Since we would get a lot of utility out of it. As for the second, part, we definitely want to save up PC after getting a Share and the Battlecrusier with the stuff. We would get enough PC in the next battle to not worry about the short dip below 100 PC.
 
I definitely agree with this plan. The onlything I would add is buy a Share with PC.

We can't, not at the current point in time if we want to get a BC to support our response here. And buying the Sword from the navy is never going to fly with the Imperium in its current state - 20 BCs in the Imperial Navy at the moment.
Adhoc vote count started by Snowfire on Sep 3, 2018 at 3:47 PM, finished with 2184 posts and 13 votes.

  • [X] Harass. If you combine your ships with those of the newly arrived heavy cruiser squadron then you can try to pick apart the rogue fleet over Imhotep.
    [X] Raid Chuang Mu, Again. You can force these battleships off Imhotep if you threaten their home system in greater force.
    [X] Their problem. The Imperial Fleet is exhausted. Now is the time for the Duchies to show their patriotism!
 
We can't, not at the current point in time if we want to get a BC to support our response here. And buying the Sword from the navy is never going to fly with the Imperium in its current state - 20 BCs in the Imperial Navy at the moment.
Just spend some PC to grease the wheels, tell the Governor that his nephew will get the Endeavor since he isn't completely useless anymore. Make the XO on the Capital Ship someone with some connections.
 
With that information, buying a BC is completely feasible. Estimate that we'll need 60PC to budget for it, probably 90 or so to actually purchase it... So we're well within range of that with a successful action.

Also, guys, super important: we get Captain Wilson to take temp command of the Endeavor when we move our flag. Instant fulfillment of the quest for her, and ahead of schedule
 

No it isn't if we keep our position or become the rear admiral over the entire border. It isn't a waste if Fleet Command sees a well secured sector when our time is up.


No it isn't if you want Reinhard to keep his position or become the rear admiral over the entire border. It isn't a waste because the state the sector is left in will affect his review by Fleet Command. I know you came in this thread late and Packrat doesn't threadmark every one of his posts but posts like these by Packrat are why nobody was against increasing our Sector Budget.

@Gunman and @Mortenkam It is gone midnight here, so no update until I am awake tomorrow, though I am taking the day off work.

Also from a strictly selfish point of view you should probably be looking at building up the sector fleet purely as a vector for increasing your wealth and political capital gain, or securing individual allies and skilled or influential officers with high Loyalty.

Of course the better you do the more opportunities you have there and the better your chances of getting promoted or being given prestigious postings, you are also drastically under strength right now especially with all of your light cruisers out of action. You still have at minimum 9 or so Strategic turns before the standard time period for reassignment comes up so you are only 1/4 of the way in. Leaving a nice, safe, well secured sector at the end would probably also lead to Political Capital bonuses.

Command of the entire border would mean being a Rear Admiral with two Commodores running sectors under you and personal supervision over whichever sector was most strategically important, so you would need to be a noble to get the promotion. Also at that point I would start increasing the level of abstraction, you might not get to see Commanders for example and only care about Captains and Commodores unless somebody makes particular waves.

So assuming we can get the Sword at a discount...yeah, we'd need to rake in some serious PC in the rest of this turn to make it viable. I still think that that's doable, however, and if we can get a BC I'd be marginally confident in hitting the ships above Imhotep for that sweet, sweet PC that defeating/driving off three battleship would net. My desire to fuck with Chaung Mu is still high, but the need to push up our budget to cover maintenance is a concern. And this would require that we buy our Share with Wealth, given I can't see us being allowed to command a BC for any great period longer without one.

Please don't tag me twice. I've been inactive in this thread because this thread is getting too fast. The last update had doubled the amount of votes and I don't want to spend all day arguing with 3 or more of which one will cherry pick what to respond to and shift goalposts.
 
[X] Harass. If you combine your ships with those of the newly arrived heavy cruiser squadron then you can try to pick apart the rogue fleet over Imhotep.
 
I think the answers above just made getting the Sword viable, assuming the discount on it is high enough. Grab our first Share with Wealth and increase the Sector Budget as we can - 70 to cover the maintenance payment. Assuming, idk, a 30% decrease to the cost of the Sword due to emergency...that's 147 PC needed. We currently have 237, so all we need is another 10 to stay at 100 PC. I'd expect that either of our offensive options should give us that and more.

In this case, I'd probably still argue to hit Chuang Mu again, to replenish our Wealth stocks and work strategic coalition fracturing magic, but that's me.

Edit: also means we can give our political captain an Elite crewed HC.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than 30%, as the Navy clearly knows that with three battleships above an Imperial world this sector needs some strength particularly if they're also aware the border is being further reinforced. Then there's the Governor himself whose part of the Imperial family, and no doubt he also very much wants that Battlecruiser to remain within this sector. Particularly if his nephew then just happens to get command of a Heavy Cruiser.
 
Im down for grabbing the BC. Im hesitant about hitting chang mu again.

And the reason for that are its defenses. It has heavy defenses around the main world. And those are meant to slow down battleship flotillas for weeks.

If we get hung up there, the enemy battleships at imhotep could sally to other areas and leave us unable to respond, and therefore fucked.
 
Im down for grabbing the BC. Im hesitant about hitting chang mu again.

And the reason for that are its defenses. It has heavy defenses around the main world. And those are meant to slow down battleship flotillas for weeks.

If we get hung up there, the enemy battleships at imhotep could sally to other areas and leave us unable to respond, and therefore fucked.

Yeah if they run a muck it'll be on us.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than 30%, as the Navy clearly knows that with three battleships above an Imperial world this sector needs some strength particularly if they're also aware the border is being further reinforced. Then there's the Governor himself whose part of the Imperial family, and no doubt he also very much wants that Battlecruiser to remain within this sector. Particularly if his nephew then just happens to get command of a Heavy Cruiser.

I mean, it's generally better to err on the side of caution in my experience, to make sure you have enough to work without risking things. You're probably right, but still.

And the reason for that are its defenses. It has heavy defenses around the main world. And those are meant to slow down battleship flotillas for weeks.

I'm pretty much certain that this isn't the case. It has heavier defences, yes, but not on the scale of the Rana Salient or the New Theia fleet base. I'd have to go rooting back to check, though. I also highly doubt that their direct democracy will allow their heavy metal to do anything but burn home at max to save them if we hit their primary.
 
Also, how did we not know about the three battleships posted on the rana salient (aka our border). We were told that the local nasp fleet was gutted and that is clearly not the case.
 
No it isn't if we keep our position or become the rear admiral over the entire border. It isn't a waste if Fleet Command sees a well secured sector when our time is up.
Winning has a bigger impact than how much budget we have. In fact I would argue that doing really well with a small budget would be more impressive.
No it isn't if you want Reinhard to keep his position or become the rear admiral over the entire border. It isn't a waste because the state the sector is left in will affect his review by Fleet Command. I know you came in this thread late and Packrat doesn't threadmark every one of his posts but posts like these by Packrat are why nobody was against increasing our Sector Budget.

Again, our budget is something that will most likely end up out of our hands. Investing PC into Shares, ships, and other useful things is better than wasting it on a Sector Budget. Again, prizes are superior to any other form of wealth/PC generation. Investing PC into ships to capture ships is far more effective than spending PC for the Sector Budget.

Also keeping our PC high will ensure a decent posting. As long as we keep coming out of head in our engagements, we won't be in that much trouble for our review. With how prizes are divided up, it would be better to stay where we are and stick to the front lines ourselves. That is where we can get the most bang for our buck with our strategy and tactics through the roof.
 
Let's be honest here, this is a brilliant for us. However, we should not attack Chuang Mu. I don't doubt we could cripple them, but in doing so, we would end up potentially causing a war which we and the imperium are not yet ready for.

Let's instead focus on this 'rogue' Fleet, attack, cripple and capture as much of them as possible.

[X] Harass. If you combine your ships with those of the newly arrived heavy cruiser squadron then you can try to pick apart the rogue fleet over Imhotep.
 
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Also, how did we not know about the three battleships posted on the rana salient (aka our border). We were told that the local nasp fleet was gutted and that is clearly not the case.
Nobody ever said the fleet in the Salient was gutted. The cruiser fleet we wiped came over the main border, and our retaliation raids were over the main border. We've never done any damage to the Rana Salient, and they're always had a crapload of ships.
 
Good points @Snowfire. It might just be that kinectic impactors like asteroids are informally banned in war because of the chance for catastrophic casualties if a sufficiently large asteroid impacts the planet behind the defenses with sufficient velocity. I'm guessing both the Empire and NASP want to rule planets and aren't pursing a victory at any cost doctrine.

Or to put it another way, given the fixed orbit of planets and the fact that ships could jump in near an asteroid belt and volley up literally thousands of asteroids for every planet in that system...even small forces could genocide an entire system. That may not be the kind of war NASP or the Empire want to fight. Does that make sense or am I totally missing your point?

Asteroids make awful weapons. They are massive and have uneven densities and compositions. So for a given energy of attack, the asteroid is slow relative to a smaller manufactured munition and is at risk of breaking up during boost phase. Against an interplanetary civilization it's really dang easy to foil an asteroid attack and it's far more lethal to land on the asteroid, refine some iron railgun slugs on-site, and then shoot those at the enemy.

Attacking with an asteroid only makes sense against civilizations that are pretty pathetic (which, to be fair, most space opera civilizations are).

The Empire and the NASP in this setting don't seem pathetic to me.

Ultimately, i believe most sci-fi require a certain suspension of disbelief on some cases, I dont see why that would be different with this quest. I think Packrat would not enjoy writing a setting where all physics are consistent and space battles is done fully realistically. I doubt the questers would prefer seeing that compared to the napoleon-esque space combat.

To have Nelson-in-space, you do have to have some suspension of disbelief, it's true, since some made-up physics is required.

But there's really no reason why it can't be fun AND internally consistent. It's not like physics is a particularly difficult science and this isn't a quest that has a high level of detail to struggle to keep straight.

I would also add that shields add more distance to an attack and having maneuvering jets doesn't take away from battle stations purpose. You still cut out the FTL, scanners, a lot of communications, life support systems, and you have a stationary mobile platform controlled from a central location. Sensors could be geared more towards detecting movement that is counter to the relative movement of the system. So if something is coming in hot from out of the system it would flash big on sensors. That would also be a good reason why ships don't move at near C speeds to quickly move in and out of engagement radius, too easily spotted.

The fact that railguns are dodged so easily lends this idea some credence.

Even firing a "cold" object from a ship (let's generously assume the ship is about room temperature) is gonna stick out like a sore thumb against the cold as all hell microwave background radiation. Even with modern technology, an alien bullet fired at Earth would stand out like a hot coal in Siberia.

And the fact that railguns are dodged so easily and don't vaporize ships on impact points to munitions going pretty "slow" in this setting.

I'd be very surprised if anything we were firing was moving faster than 10% of light speed (which is still screaming fast) and probably railgun rounds are pretty small. Under a kilo probably.

I'm still extremely confused as to why battleships are barely as massy as top of the line military naval craft today, but that's a separate conversation. Seriously though, we've built cruise liners twice that mass, and if you've got the industrial capacity to curtain a planet in minefields, building bigger should be trivial. Given the systems present weapons wise, bigger is also almost certainly better.

It may be a limitation of the jump drives we use.

Bahahahahaha no. Our PC can probably 1v1 a battleship with his cruiser. 3 battleships? No. Not happening. Especially because they have support ships.

Yeah, the multi-attack bonus those 3 capitals could get against our cruisers would be insane.

I'm not too worried about Endeavour, but we could take painful losses to the rest of our fleet. And charging the BBs with Endeavour alone is probably unwise.

No. 110PC for a ship we can't keep is too high a price.

Betcha if we gave it to Adald we could get a PC refund.

If we could buy the BC now for 110PC, use it to smash the 3BBs over Imhotep, then give it to Adald and gain 55PC from the governor... Well, I'd say it was worthwhile.

But it looks like we will also get the BC at a discount due to the emergency. I think this works. We can still buy Reinhard his own BC later and give Sword to a loyal captain.

[X] Harass. If you combine your ships with those of the newly arrived heavy cruiser squadron then you can try to pick apart the rogue fleet over Imhotep.

I am voting for harass because it seems we can get a discount BC for this and I want to capture a battleship. (Also, gutting the fleet over Imhotep will make next turn much more manageable.)

@Packrat: Is there any chance we can get Hompsand transferred to our command in time to launch our attack on Imhotep?

[] Captain Dame Rynie Sarea Hompsand – Your XO in your previous command, she has just been promoted but not yet assigned. A member of a minor noble house, you mentored her extensively and she is, you feel, probably now one of the most effective ship commanders in the empire. (Diplomacy 11, Strategy 15, Tactics 16, Prowess 9, Subterfuge 13, Loyalty 16)

Having a subordinate with stats like hers would be really useful right now.

fasquardon
 
Again, our budget is something that will most likely end up out of our hands.

That is fucking wrong when we have an action to increase our Sector Budget. Don't make things up.

ships, and other useful things is better than wasting it on a Sector Budget. Again, prizes are superior to any other form of wealth/PC generation. Investing PC into ships to capture ships is far more effective than spending PC for the Sector Budget.

Guess what happens when you spend political capital on a ship? We requisition a ship from the Imperial Navy, that is maintained by our Sector Budget. Don't ignore what Packrat said because you find it inconvenient. Let me guess, you want to support those ships through buying Shares with PC? You want to spend 120 PC on a Share that generates 1 Wealth per quarter instead of spending that 120 PC on 12 Sector Budget points? Or do you want to take it out of our already pressed Wealth reserves with all of the different things there is to spend it on?

@Gunman and @Mortenkam It is gone midnight here, so no update until I am awake tomorrow, though I am taking the day off work.

Also from a strictly selfish point of view you should probably be looking at building up the sector fleet purely as a vector for increasing your wealth and political capital gain, or securing individual allies and skilled or influential officers with high Loyalty.

Of course the better you do the more opportunities you have there and the better your chances of getting promoted or being given prestigious postings, you are also drastically under strength right now especially with all of your light cruisers out of action. You still have at minimum 9 or so Strategic turns before the standard time period for reassignment comes up so you are only 1/4 of the way in. Leaving a nice, safe, well secured sector at the end would probably also lead to Political Capital bonuses.

Command of the entire border would mean being a Rear Admiral with two Commodores running sectors under you and personal supervision over whichever sector was most strategically important, so you would need to be a noble to get the promotion. Also at that point I would start increasing the level of abstraction, you might not get to see Commanders for example and only care about Captains and Commodores unless somebody makes particular waves.

In fact I would argue that doing really well with a small budget would be more impressive.

So what? This is a non-sequitur.
 
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Also, how did we not know about the three battleships posted on the rana salient (aka our border). We were told that the local nasp fleet was gutted and that is clearly not the case.

Well, imagine NASP as early USA.
There is federal army, and then there are militias of constituent states.

We gutted federal army stationed there, so feds are moving several more in the area.
And while they are at it, we went and fucked governor's daughter, so he commanded state militia to attack us, while feds are screaming at him due to leaving forts vital for their grasp on the region.
 
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That is fucking wrong when we have an action to increase our Sector Budget. Don't make things up.
I am speaking to how we can be assigned elsewhere. Yes we have an action. But that PC will be wasted if we are transferred. Stop misunderstanding things.

Guess what happens when you spend political capital on a ship? We requisition a ship from the Imperial Navy, that is maintained by our Sector Budget. Don't ignore what Packrat said because you find it inconvenient. Let me guess, you want to support those ships through buying Shares with PC? You want to spend 120 PC on a Share that generates 1 Wealth per quarter instead of spending that 120 PC on 12 Sector Budget points? Or do you want to take it out of our already pressed Wealth reserves with all of the different things there is to spend it on?
Again, if you actually read what I have wrote, I have made the point time and time again that prizes are the most efficient way of PC/wealth generation. Getting more ships to get more prizes is a more efficient investment compared to anything else. I did say we should a single Share in order to get the benefits of being nobility. I never suggested using the wealth generated by the Share to support anything. Again, read what I wrote instead of imagining things.

In terms of paying for ships, we clear out our sector and then raid into NASP space if we need to get more wealth. Kind of like what they did with the 'pirates'.
So what? This is a non-sequitur.
You made the argument that having a larger budget would be more impressive. I am arguing the opposite. Making do with less, rather than asking for handouts. Since that is what using PC to increase the budget means. At least with actual ships, we can point at them and say, 'We need ships to beat other ships, but we can find our own money and income.'
 
Again, if you actually read what I have wrote, I have made the point time and time again that prizes are the most efficient way of PC/wealth generation.

I read what you wrote. It goes back to pressing our wealth reserves that we spend on our lifestyle, have to be higher than before so our crewmen can make up for the debt absolution terms being doubled and maintain their lifestyle, investing money, intelligence operations and private ships Fleet Command doesn't touch, is loyal to us first and can be used to take actions we can't with Imperial Navy ships.

But that PC will be wasted if we are transferred.

No it isn't if we keep our position or become the rear admiral over the entire border. It isn't a waste if Fleet Command sees a well secured sector when our time is up.

Leaving a nice, safe, well secured sector at the end would probably also lead to Political Capital bonuses.

Stop ignoring what I write when I take the time to find quotes by the QM and respond to you. It isn't a waste. It is more of a waste to spend our Wealth on Imperial Navy ships because we"ll always have our Wealth no matter what happens to Reinhard.

You made the argument that having a larger budget would be more impressive.

Don't make up lies. I made the argument having a secure sector will look better to the Governor General and Fleet Command. It isn't going to be a good look for us when upon our transfer all of those ships leave because they can't be supported by the sector budget.
 
It's sad really. Gunman leaves the thread for a day or two and all our sober budgetary policy leaves with him. Instead we have people pissing wealth and PC away left and right because 'we ken earn zit ageeen'.

Let me make clear where I stand. No throwing away PC to get a battlecruiser or a battleship. Period. Part of playing a high strategy character is that we make do without. No wasting PC on buying a Share. In case people haven't noticed, it's much easier to earn wealth than it is PC. We raid anything? We capture a ship? Guaranteed wealth.

Also, no fucking timidity. We're playing a tactical genius; that means having some balls. Means taking gambits. We're not here to be Ranca's house-husband, we're here to be the fucking Emperor. And we're not going to be the fucking Emperor if we pussyfoot around, and pussyfooting around seems to what the thread drifts towards if it isn't pushed another way. We wouldn't have captured Sword of Democracy if we'd chickened out, and we didn't chicken out because Gunman and quite a few others kept pushing, pushing, pushing.

The gameplan is we raid Chaung Mu, we make out like bandits, we spend PC to fix the sector budget and we buy ourselves a private fleet.

[X] Raid Chuang Mu, Again. You can force these battleships off Imhotep if you threaten their home system in greater force.
 
No throwing away PC to get a battlecruiser or a battleship. Period.

If we can get it for cheap enough, would you reconsider this given what the QM has said about sector budget getting pushed up by about half what you need to support any vessel requisitioned with PC? Just given what we're up against and likely to be up against, the need to bank 300 odd PC to maintain a battlecruiser, and how long it will take to get a personal BC built for us. Also that Packrat said that we could keep a BC with us as long as we're in a sector that needs it for a quarter of its PC cost and are basically never going to get 'bad' postings so long as we keep our PC about 100.

I'm completely against letting our PC drop below 100, for any reason, but I'm willing to shell out a discounted amount for the power of a battlecruiser. I mean, for one thing, can you imagine the sheer panic that would break out on Chuang Mu if we revert to realspace with four heavy cruisers and a battlecruiser, with escorts? They know very well what we did to them with just ships of the line. Having a proper capital ship? Brown pants will sell out.
Adhoc vote count started by Snowfire on Sep 3, 2018 at 4:32 PM, finished with 2198 posts and 17 votes.

  • [X] Harass. If you combine your ships with those of the newly arrived heavy cruiser squadron then you can try to pick apart the rogue fleet over Imhotep.
    [X] Raid Chuang Mu, Again. You can force these battleships off Imhotep if you threaten their home system in greater force.
    [X] Their problem. The Imperial Fleet is exhausted. Now is the time for the Duchies to show their patriotism!
    [X] Harass. If you combine your ships with those of the newly arrived heavy cruiser squadron then you can try to pick apart the rogue fleet over Imhotep.
    -[X] conscript every ship you can, and use political favour to borrow more from every local ducal House and crush the rogue fleet over Imhotep
 
[X] Raid Chuang Mu, Again. You can force these battleships off Imhotep if you threaten their home system in greater force.

We can probably bullshit our way through Chuang Mus defenses. If we succeed well enough, we might even be able to get the local democracy to order the battleships to stand down and surrender to the Empire on pain of their home getting nuked from orbit.
 
[X] Raid Chuang Mu, Again. You can force these battleships off Imhotep if you threaten their home system in greater force.

With three top-of-the-line CAs we can easily shred the monitor, and the other ships won't even be a distraction. Note that each Dragon class matches the monitor for firepower.

As for the battlecruiser debate, I'm torn. This is probably our best opportunity to get a BC, and I instinctively want to spring for it, but I generally lean towards the stingy side. Luckily, that isn't a question right at this moment.

RIP Colonel Chalet.
 
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