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Tales of History - A Civ-Builder Quest

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Ghostdevil said:
As soon as @Azel came back the vote starts to literally shift after about 3 weeks of silence... Funny.
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Indeed. And I didn't even announce my return here, thinking it pointless after the eternal silence.

Preliminary Tally. Vote stays open for 24 hours more, due to the consensus shifting greatly.
Adhoc vote count started by Azel on Sep 1, 2018 at 10:49 AM, finished with 158 posts and 39 votes.
  • [X] Plan Jolly Cooperation
    [X] Refuse the deal. Raid Brushcrest as planned. Whoever these People of Makar are, they are no danger to Greenvalley.
    [X] Plan Acceptable Cooperation
    -[X] Accept the deal. Instead of raiding Brushcrest, the Valley People will march with them against the People of Makar.
    --[X] Brushcrest will allow Speaker to Preach in Brushcrest.
    --[X] Water Maidens are allowed access but are NOT allowed to preach.
    --[X] Brushcrest will not build another village or outpost along the river of the Valley People.
    [X] Plan Brushcrest Delenda Est (& Longhouses)
    -[X] Train the workers to do more specialized things:
    --[X] Train Hunters
    ---[X] Heavy Infantry
    --[X] Train Fishers
    -[X] Raid someone:
    --[X] Brushcrest
    ---[X] 1 x Heavy (Veteran), 1 x Archers (Veteran), 1 x Light Infantry from the Valley Peoples
    ---[X] Offer 0.25 Tools (Obsidian) total and a share of the loot/pop to Antler Clans for up to two hunter pops.
    ---[X] Offer 0.2 -- 0.4 Tools (Obsidian) total to be split amongst volunteers from White Clans and a share of the loot/pop (see Council Action)
    -[X] Preach
    --[X] Continue the work with the White Clans:
    ---[X] Bring Bone-Tenders to the mountains and establish them among the wandering groups of clansmen.
    -[X] Try to make contact with someone.
    --[X] With whom: White Clans
    ---[X] Council of Three Representative authorized to offer up to 0.4 Tools (Obsidian) in total, split amongst each pop of volunteer hunters (expected: 0.2 Tools/pop). Also, a share of the loot, with one pop of hunters = 1 share. Note: subjugated pops do not count as "loot".
    [X] Accept the deal. Instead of raiding Brushcrest, the Valley People will march with them against the People of Makar.
    -[X] A Portion of the loot as well as allowing Speaker to talk in Brushcrest.
    [X] Refuse to send warriors to assist Bushcrest. However, offer a truce. You will agree not to attack or raid Bushcrest for an entire generation, and in turn Bushcrest will not attempt to secure Lakefort, and will allow Greenvally to build their own fortifications there unimpeded.
    -[X] Offer to buy some of Bushcrest's goods peacefully by establishing trade ties.
    [X] Accept the deal. Instead of raiding Brushcrest, the Valley People will march with them against the People of Makar.
    -[X] Brushcrest will bend the knee and become a tributary of the Valley Peoples. A tributary payment will be sent every turn from Brushcrest to the Valley, with exact terms to be negotiated later. In return their chieftain and council will gain the right to represent themselves before the Council of Three, but not a voice in the succession, and the other rights expected will be withheld. Though, should Brushcrest ever become a village of the Valley Peoples, said rights will be accorded.
    -[X] Brushcrest will give up the right to make alliances, declare war or raid other powers without Council approval, but smaller things are fine. Current alliances will be respected unless broken.
    -[X] Brushcrest will allow the Speaker and Bone tenders to preach freely in Brushcrest, and will see to it that no harm will come to them.
    -[X] The Water Maidens will not be allowed to preach in Greenvalley or to the Clans. They may send expeditions up the Gentle River, but they must not set foot on Greenvalley soil under penalty of summary execution. They may, however, request help from river dwellers if necessary.
    -[X] Members of the water faith will not be allowed to settle in the Valley or amongst the Clans.
    -[X] Brushcrest will not build north into the lands of the Valley People, or attempt to block passage down the river. They may expand east or west or try to cross the seas, if they wish.
    -[X] In return Brushcrest will be under the protection of the Valley People, and the Valley People will see to it that they are not destroyed.
    -[X] Explain that they are asking us to turn from an enemy to an ally on basically nothing but their word. Tribute might seem a steep cost, but the benefits will be worth it; no more raiding from all sides, destroying their every effort. Without raiding taking its toll, they should easily be able to pay tribute and continue to grow. A few shells is a cheap price for safety.
    [x] Plan Loot and only loot
    -[x] Clarify the war goal of Brushcrest. If it is defense without raiding Markar then we ask for 4 units of seashell in exchange. If it is counter raid then we ask for 1.5 unit of seashell and at least 2/3 of the spoil of war.
    -[x] Maintain that Greenvalley will be the sole commander of GV force, but our chosen commander will try to work with Brushcrest.
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The question here is ultimately if you trust Brushcrest to abide by the terms of whatever long-term deal you make.

Doing some mercenary work for them in return for immediate payment is a pretty straightforward thing, but Jolly Cooperation goes far beyond that.
 
Well, what I want most is to attempt to convert them, since our religion would make it easier to make them bend the knee.
So, as long as they respect having our preachers in their village for at least the rest of the time we have Speaker, then we might at least have a minority of supporters in Brushcrest.
So,@Azel I would like to ask about how much longer can we expect Speaker to stay alive?
 
Mortenkam said:
Well, what I want most is to attempt to convert them, since our religion would make it easier to make them bend the knee.
So, as long as they respect having our preachers in their village for at least the rest of the time we have Speaker, then we might at least have a minority of supporters in Brushcrest.
So,@Azel I would like to ask about how much longer can we expect Speaker to stay alive?
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He will still be alive for the next turn.
 
@Azel Is vote pledging allowed in this quest?

If so I'd be willing to pledge future votes for this one, I think agreeing is a quest losing black-hole we will slowly circle around.
 
I'm really not sure if it's for the best but I agree with ritos.

[X] Refuse the deal. Raid Brushcrest as planned. Whoever these People of Makar are, they are no danger to Greenvalley.
 
vote tally
Adhoc vote count started by thefoolswriter on Sep 2, 2018 at 4:43 AM, finished with 5236 posts and 40 votes.
  • [X] Plan Jolly Cooperation
    [X] Refuse the deal. Raid Brushcrest as planned. Whoever these People of Makar are, they are no danger to Greenvalley.
    [X] Plan Acceptable Cooperation
    -[X] Accept the deal. Instead of raiding Brushcrest, the Valley People will march with them against the People of Makar.
    --[X] Brushcrest will allow Speaker to Preach in Brushcrest.
    --[X] Water Maidens are allowed access but are NOT allowed to preach.
    --[X] Brushcrest will not build another village or outpost along the river of the Valley People.
    [X] Accept the deal. Instead of raiding Brushcrest, the Valley People will march with them against the People of Makar.
    -[X] A Portion of the loot as well as allowing Speaker to talk in Brushcrest.
    [X] Refuse to send warriors to assist Bushcrest. However, offer a truce. You will agree not to attack or raid Bushcrest for an entire generation, and in turn Bushcrest will not attempt to secure Lakefort, and will allow Greenvally to build their own fortifications there unimpeded.
    -[X] Offer to buy some of Bushcrest's goods peacefully by establishing trade ties.
    [X] Plan Jolly Cooperation
    [X] Accept the deal. Instead of raiding Brushcrest, the Valley People will march with them against the People of Makar.
    -[X] Brushcrest will bend the knee and become a tributary of the Valley Peoples. A tributary payment will be sent every turn from Brushcrest to the Valley, with exact terms to be negotiated later. In return their chieftain and council will gain the right to represent themselves before the Council of Three, but not a voice in the succession, and the other rights expected will be withheld. Though, should Brushcrest ever become a village of the Valley Peoples, said rights will be accorded.
    -[X] Brushcrest will give up the right to make alliances, declare war or raid other powers without Council approval, but smaller things are fine. Current alliances will be respected unless broken.
    -[X] Brushcrest will allow the Speaker and Bone tenders to preach freely in Brushcrest, and will see to it that no harm will come to them.
    -[X] The Water Maidens will not be allowed to preach in Greenvalley or to the Clans. They may send expeditions up the Gentle River, but they must not set foot on Greenvalley soil under penalty of summary execution. They may, however, request help from river dwellers if necessary.
    -[X] Members of the water faith will not be allowed to settle in the Valley or amongst the Clans.
    -[X] Brushcrest will not build north into the lands of the Valley People, or attempt to block passage down the river. They may expand east or west or try to cross the seas, if they wish.
    -[X] In return Brushcrest will be under the protection of the Valley People, and the Valley People will see to it that they are not destroyed.
    -[X] Explain that they are asking us to turn from an enemy to an ally on basically nothing but their word. Tribute might seem a steep cost, but the benefits will be worth it; no more raiding from all sides, destroying their every effort. Without raiding taking its toll, they should easily be able to pay tribute and continue to grow. A few shells is a cheap price for safety.
    [x] Plan Loot and only loot
    -[x] Clarify the war goal of Brushcrest. If it is defense without raiding Markar then we ask for 4 units of seashell in exchange. If it is counter raid then we ask for 1.5 unit of seashell and at least 2/3 of the spoil of war.
    -[x] Maintain that Greenvalley will be the sole commander of GV force, but our chosen commander will try to work with Brushcrest.
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[X] Refuse the deal. Raid Brushcrest as planned. Whoever these People of Makar are, they are no danger to Greenvalley.
 
I am legitimately concerned about my tsundere luck lately...

so im going with...cause frankly I don't trust these guys to hold to the deal...and I KNOW they will eventually find a way to break it, we would do it to. we have no real way of making sure they keep their word of things, plus if we are building tall they are going to go wide with shit ton of people to attack us back.

[X] Plan Acceptable Cooperation
-[X] Accept the deal. Instead of raiding Brushcrest, the Valley People will march with them against the People of Makar.
--[X] Brushcrest will allow Speaker to Preach in Brushcrest.
--[X] Water Maidens are allowed access but are NOT allowed to preach.
--[X] Brushcrest will not build another village or outpost along the river of the Valley People.
 
We are being very WH-Dawi right now. A diplomatic mission arrives, it gets a rather humiliating deal amidst some grumbling. Then when the general agreement has been settled, and not insignificant time passes while the details are being discussed, more grumbling happens and any agreement is suddenly under a rotten support beam now.
 
*peeks at tally*

Well...
Adhoc vote count started by Azel on Sep 2, 2018 at 12:06 PM, finished with 5239 posts and 40 votes.
  • [X] Refuse the deal. Raid Brushcrest as planned. Whoever these People of Makar are, they are no danger to Greenvalley.
    [X] Plan Jolly Cooperation
    [X] Plan Acceptable Cooperation
    -[X] Accept the deal. Instead of raiding Brushcrest, the Valley People will march with them against the People of Makar.
    --[X] Brushcrest will allow Speaker to Preach in Brushcrest.
    --[X] Water Maidens are allowed access but are NOT allowed to preach.
    --[X] Brushcrest will not build another village or outpost along the river of the Valley People.
    [X] Accept the deal. Instead of raiding Brushcrest, the Valley People will march with them against the People of Makar.
    -[X] A Portion of the loot as well as allowing Speaker to talk in Brushcrest.
    [X] Refuse to send warriors to assist Bushcrest. However, offer a truce. You will agree not to attack or raid Bushcrest for an entire generation, and in turn Bushcrest will not attempt to secure Lakefort, and will allow Greenvally to build their own fortifications there unimpeded.
    -[X] Offer to buy some of Bushcrest's goods peacefully by establishing trade ties.
    [X] Plan Jolly Cooperation
    [X] Accept the deal. Instead of raiding Brushcrest, the Valley People will march with them against the People of Makar.
    -[X] Brushcrest will bend the knee and become a tributary of the Valley Peoples. A tributary payment will be sent every turn from Brushcrest to the Valley, with exact terms to be negotiated later. In return their chieftain and council will gain the right to represent themselves before the Council of Three, but not a voice in the succession, and the other rights expected will be withheld. Though, should Brushcrest ever become a village of the Valley Peoples, said rights will be accorded.
    -[X] Brushcrest will give up the right to make alliances, declare war or raid other powers without Council approval, but smaller things are fine. Current alliances will be respected unless broken.
    -[X] Brushcrest will allow the Speaker and Bone tenders to preach freely in Brushcrest, and will see to it that no harm will come to them.
    -[X] The Water Maidens will not be allowed to preach in Greenvalley or to the Clans. They may send expeditions up the Gentle River, but they must not set foot on Greenvalley soil under penalty of summary execution. They may, however, request help from river dwellers if necessary.
    -[X] Members of the water faith will not be allowed to settle in the Valley or amongst the Clans.
    -[X] Brushcrest will not build north into the lands of the Valley People, or attempt to block passage down the river. They may expand east or west or try to cross the seas, if they wish.
    -[X] In return Brushcrest will be under the protection of the Valley People, and the Valley People will see to it that they are not destroyed.
    -[X] Explain that they are asking us to turn from an enemy to an ally on basically nothing but their word. Tribute might seem a steep cost, but the benefits will be worth it; no more raiding from all sides, destroying their every effort. Without raiding taking its toll, they should easily be able to pay tribute and continue to grow. A few shells is a cheap price for safety.
    [x] Plan Loot and only loot
    -[x] Clarify the war goal of Brushcrest. If it is defense without raiding Markar then we ask for 4 units of seashell in exchange. If it is counter raid then we ask for 1.5 unit of seashell and at least 2/3 of the spoil of war.
    -[x] Maintain that Greenvalley will be the sole commander of GV force, but our chosen commander will try to work with Brushcrest.
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Damn wish that other guy came earlier about Albion, I didn't even THINK of that. Which is why i swapped over as soon as he made that reference.
 
God, people. We reached a consensus, someone made an argument that had already been addressed, and a reverse bandwagon appeared out of nowhere.

We are getting an incredibly good deal with Jolly Cooperation. We are putting ourselves on the top of a pre-existing regional network without making them all hate us. If Brushcrest doesn't take the deal? Then we can go murder mode. If they go back on the deal? Then we can go murder mode. But right now, we are being given an opportunity to dictate demands and extend our reach way outside the valley. By the time bronze rolls around, we can be a regional hegemon that have established ourselves over the lowlands or we can be a band of backwards highland raiders that get wiped out by a coalition.

Absolute worst case scenario, they steal our military upgrades and tell us to bugger off, and we slaughter them anyway because we're much better warriors. Nothing to fear, everything to gain.
 
[X] Refuse the deal. Raid Brushcrest as planned. Whoever these People of Makar are, they are no danger to Greenvalley.

Would prefer to take the deal for shells but just refusing is better than trying for a deal we cannot enforce.
 
natruska said:
God, people. We reached a consensus, someone made an argument that had already been addressed, and a reverse bandwagon appeared out of nowhere.

We are getting an incredibly good deal with Jolly Cooperation. We are putting ourselves on the top of a pre-existing regional network without making them all hate us. If Brushcrest doesn't take the deal? Then we can go murder mode. If they go back on the deal? Then we can go murder mode. But right now, we are being given an opportunity to dictate demands and extend our reach way outside the valley. By the time bronze rolls around, we can be a regional hegemon that have established ourselves over the lowlands or we can be a band of backwards highland raiders that get wiped out by a coalition.

Absolute worst case scenario, they steal our military upgrades and tell us to bugger off, and we slaughter them anyway because we're much better warriors. Nothing to fear, everything to gain.
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Thats incredibly optimistic, thinking about it for a second, we have Zero way to enforce any of these terms. They let us die and sacrifice to defend them and their allies and then they can deny us anything. Were not so much better that we can do whatever we want. If this guy is a diplo hero, he'll use our hubristic demands to backfire as most are unenforceable at this moment. Nevermind after a battle that if were unlucky could FUCK US UP. Since we don't know how strong they are.
 
Ghostdevil said:
Thats incredibly optimistic, thinking about it for a second, we have Zero way to enforce any of these terms. They let us die and sacrifice to defend them and their allies and then they can deny us anything. Were not so much better that we can do whatever we want. If this guy is a diplo hero, he'll use our hubristic demands to backfire as most are unenforceable at this moment. Nevermind after a battle that if were unlucky could FUCK US UP. Since we don't know how strong they are.
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We enforce these terms by kicking the crap out of them if they back out. What's your alternative plan? I doubt we can directly rule them from all the way up in the valley if we take over in a raid. This is an opportunity to get a tributary who'll actually feel protected and grateful, which is pretty valuable. If they deny it, we kick the crap out of them. If they back out, we kick the crap out of them.
 
natruska said:
We enforce these terms by kicking the crap out of them if they back out. What's your alternative plan? I doubt we can directly rule them from all the way up in the valley if we take over in a raid. This is an opportunity to get a tributary who'll actually feel protected and grateful, which is pretty valuable. If they deny it, we kick the crap out of them. If they back out, we kick the crap out of them.
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In a raid, I plan to demolish them. Even if we can't destroy them, its better than Pretending we own them. If we were stronger or they were absolutely desperate then we MIGHT have been able to get away with a lot more. But Their not.
We don't even know how well the fight will go so assuming it'll go perfectly is faulty.
 
Azel said:
"Nothing of the sort, I swear thus. In blood if you wish it, for I was given to understand you value such oaths greatly." He was serious about it, for he stretched out a hand to the hunters standing guard over the proceedings as if to request a knife, though he was waved off. "What you took by force from us in the past, we are willing to offer freely in return for aid. The people of Makar are stirring, their boats once again prowling the rivers to make prey out of every man, woman and child they find. All we ask for is that you bring your might to bear on them and we will gladly offer the bounty of the sea in return for your aid. Other have already joined our cause already, likewise victims of their depravities and with the great warriors of Greenvalley on our side, we can do more then just weather the attacks. We can march upon their villages and end this threat. Once and for all."
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Ghostdevil said:
Thats incredibly optimistic, thinking about it for a second, we have Zero way to enforce any of these terms. They let us die and sacrifice to defend them and their allies and then they can deny us anything. Were not so much better that we can do whatever we want. If this guy is a diplo hero, he'll use our hubristic demands to backfire as most are unenforceable at this moment. Nevermind after a battle that if were unlucky could FUCK US UP. Since we don't know how strong they are.
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As far as I understand it, the risk of armies getting crushed is shared with Brushcrest and its allies and we would get a chance to see what forces they can muster. We will get to raid and loot a village either way, but if we actually raided the Makar, we would likely end up with in the range of 10 units, which might be enough to put what seems to be a violent raider tribe out for good, which would mean that we would not have to duke it out later with fewer men at our side.

Also, we got the ability to use our religion to make people respect our rule and we got a hero, who has the focus of proselytizing, so if they at least respect the deal of letting our preachers proselytizing next turn, then we might have a short at making them a permanent tribute.

I will admit, that the offer from Jolly Cooperation are hard to ensure happens in the long term, but even the short term benefits are worth it to me.
 
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