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Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest

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Guys, I'm not sure "put it on ice" is very viable.

If you're worried about the artifact doing horrible things to people, in the long run it's more likely to resurface. A hundred years from now there will be no one with living memory of why we buried it aside from asari; someone who finds out about the artifact suddenly may be curious about it and try to dig it up without the government's knowledge. Or they may just decide to start experimenting on it without having our present-day understanding of the risks.

Plus, while in the short run people will be willing to keep looking over logs of the mysterious device, if we're waiting to study it with future technology we're going to be disappointed. Several hundred years from now, if the artifact hasn't been dug back out of deep storage, it will have been essentially forgotten by the scientific community and you'd practically need an archaeologist to even resume the research where the Lystheni's notes left off. If we only wait a few decades, well... our technology isn't going to be that much better a few decades from now; Mass Effect tech evolves on a timescale of centuries, not decades, once you get out of the industrial revolution and the digital age.

If it's "too dangerous" to do even super limited experiments on the artifact now, it is likely to remain too dangerous to do so. Until such a time, so far in the future, that the probability of anyone actually running safe experiments on it decreases to effectively nil. And the risk of someone "dismissing those claims" that the artifact is dangerous as a bunch of old rumors and deciding to perform unsafe experiments begins to increase.

I don't think we're likely to gain much out of keeping around something we're afraid to touch ever. And barring us actually running some experiments of this kind, we're certainly never going to reach a point where we're NOT afraid to touch maybe-Reaper-maybe-not artifacts. While I favor some cautious experimentation, I don't favor just archiving the thing and trying to make sure nobody ever gets at it.

...

[X] Write-In: Super limited experiments. Perform ONE course of experiments, with short exposure of a small number of volunteer subjects, using every sensor available to see if we can detect the mind-affecting mechanism. Run every known form of brain scan on the volunteers to see if we can spot signs of those who have been affected by every means, OTHER than simply monitoring their behavior. If we learn anything, put it on ice and figure out what to do next. If we can't detect the mind control process and can't detect signs of it in victims, throw it into the sun.

[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
 
[x] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.

Not worth it, plain and simple, we can spend resources and time in other things.
 
[X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
 
I don't think we can afford to pass the opportunity to get indoctrination countermeasures going. In canon, indoctrination is underused, unless you are of the opinion the council's utter incompetence is a subtle form of it. But this shit could easily decapitate a government if one artifact slips in undetected. We should definitely try to at least be able to detect the process. I have no interest in replicating it, but now that we know it exists, we can't let it go unanswered. Since limited experiments sound the safest of the analysis options and the likeliest to win, I'll go with that.

[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
 
[X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
 
[X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.​
 
Simon_Jester said:
We know that some races in the past managed to at least make a dent in one or more of the Reapers trying to develop countermeasures or counterweapons, and if this turns out to be one of those countermeasures, it would be good to have it in the archives for later.
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We know the Protheans had indoctrination research ongoing.
That's because the Prothean VI Vendetta was able to detect indoctrination; it detected Kai-Leng.

Hell, there are indications in canon(the Leviathan DLC) that the Reapers themselves developed indoctrination by studying Leviathan mindcontrol, according to one of the Leviathans.

We also know Reaper indoctrination is not infallible.
We know that it can be overwritten by Thorian mindcontrol, as with Shiala, and when she was freed from that, she was clean.
Mass Effect mind control all seem to share similar vectors.

Simon_Jester said:
As noted, though, it's not clear whether anyone really tried this. The only groups researching indoctrination prior to Mass Effect 3 were reckless groups that themselves became indoctrinated in short order.
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Again, see the Protheans.

I think the point needs to be made that people overestimate the danger of indoctrination. It's primary advantage is in it's secrecy.
Literally the only nation-state crippled by indoctrination in canon were the Batarians, and that's because they moved a fucking Reaper wholesale into the heart of their homeworld, home of their entire government and military high command.

Not even humanity, which had Cerberus playing Quisling, suffered more than intelligence loss and sabotage.
Simon_Jester said:
Because if we keep this thing buried at the south pole or something, there's always a risk of someone digging it up later. Or someone finding out that we buried an artifact at the south pole, NOT knowing what it does, and stealing it because they figure it must be valuable or the government wouldn't be covering it up.
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I assume they want to stick it in a guarded government facility while the notes are disseminated into the scientific community. Depends on how long we choose to do so.
Nothing stops us digging it out and starting again ten years hence.

I mean, I think sticking it in storage is unwise, and that letting the exposed lystheni die without a program to monitor them is a waste and sets us back decades or centuries, but it's not especially risky.
Simon_Jester said:
Mira's lifetime is about eight hundred years; it's not unlikely we'll run across a(nother) Reaper artifact in that timespan.
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1) This is not a Reaper artifact.
Finding more Precursor artifacts is in no way a given.

2) Reaper artifacts are actually pretty rare; witness all the Asari matriarchs who never heard of Reaper artifacts before canon.
Do recall that the Collectors were active in ME space and policing it.

EDIT
Nurgle said:
[X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
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When you discover chemical weapons lying around, do you immediately destroy them as unclean and something you'd never use?
Or do you figure out how they work, so that if your forces run into them in the hands of your enemies, they have a defense?
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Apr 11, 2018 at 8:10 AM, finished with 116 posts and 46 votes.
  • [X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
    [X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
    [X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
    [X] Continue full experimentation. While the Lystheni's direction of research was utter madness, they weren't wrong about the sheer potential of this artifact. If it can be invented once, it can be invented again -- and you'd like to know if there's a countermeasure. Authorize a full and proper team, and tell them to get you answers.
    [X] Write-In: Super limited experiments. Perform ONE course of experiments, with short exposure of a small number of volunteer subjects, using every sensor available to see if we can detect the mind-affecting mechanism. Run every known form of brain scan on the volunteers to see if we can spot signs of those who have been affected by every means, OTHER than simply monitoring their behavior. If we learn anything, put it on ice and figure out what to do next. If we can't detect the mind control process and can't detect signs of it in victims, throw it into the sun.
    [X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.​
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[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
[X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
 
Lets have a Tally.
Adhoc vote count started by Thors_Alumni on Apr 11, 2018 at 8:17 AM, finished with 118 posts and 47 votes.
  • [X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
    [X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
    [X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
    [X] Continue full experimentation. While the Lystheni's direction of research was utter madness, they weren't wrong about the sheer potential of this artifact. If it can be invented once, it can be invented again -- and you'd like to know if there's a countermeasure. Authorize a full and proper team, and tell them to get you answers.
    [X] Write-In: Super limited experiments. Perform ONE course of experiments, with short exposure of a small number of volunteer subjects, using every sensor available to see if we can detect the mind-affecting mechanism. Run every known form of brain scan on the volunteers to see if we can spot signs of those who have been affected by every means, OTHER than simply monitoring their behavior. If we learn anything, put it on ice and figure out what to do next. If we can't detect the mind control process and can't detect signs of it in victims, throw it into the sun.
    [X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.​
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[X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.

[X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productivelystudy it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisitexperiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
 
Wiadi said:
Okay, y'know what, let's just go straight to the source here.

@PoptartProdigy without commenting on this particular scenario (for obvious reasons), can you tell us whether in the abstract we're likely to encounter situations where using purely OOC knowledge about the Mass Effect universe is crucial to avoiding negative outcomes?
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You have more information on certain topics than Mira does, so on those topics I suppose it's inevitable that with your information you'd make different decisions than hers. Engineering those situations is not my objective, though. There's just only so much I can do about that when working in an established universe.
Spacegnom said:
@PoptartProdigy When I compare the flavor text of limited vs full experimentation, it seems to me that limited is intended to be the 'Slow, but safe' option. Is this correct? Or, would both options contain the same amount of security measures?
If we choose to put it on ice, we'd still constantly check up on the people who guard it, right?
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To simplify, limited vs. full is a matter of what you're willing to sacrifice in the name of what. Limited prioritizes safety at the expense of results, full prioritizes results at the expense of safety. Again, simplified, but limited would focus on things like observation of previous exposure subjects — the Lystheni have an extensive lineup of individuals at every point of exposure from one hour to five hundred hours — and remote observation of the artifact. Full would focus on direct (animal, of course, and only maybe, once results were gained, informed sapient) exposure studies on the artifact.
 
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
 
[X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
 
[X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.

Everyone who says this isn't Reapertech: is there a WoG I missed that confirmed or hinted at this?
 
[X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.

Fucking around with this stuff is a bad idea
 
QuietlyObserving said:
Everyone who says this isn't Reapertech: is there a WoG I missed that confirmed or hinted at this?
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Besides the general "I won't tell you whether there are Reapers in this quest." statement by the QM, no. Then again: Edit: Wrong quest.
Still I feel the following question is valid, to me this looks more like the Leviathans than the Reapers.
Everyone who assumes this is Reapertech: is there a WoG I missed that confirmed or hinted at this?
 
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[X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
 
QuietlyObserving said:
Everyone who says this isn't Reapertech: is there a WoG I missed that confirmed or hinted at this?
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Mind control =/= Reapertech.
Canon had at least three different species capable of total mind control: Reapers, Leviathan, and Thorian. The Leviathan were actually the best at it, and indoctrination was allegedly developed from observing them.

There is no WoG I am aware of. But none of the people are ACTING like indoctrinated people from Mass Effect.
We know how Indoctrination manifested in canon salarians. None of this.
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Apr 11, 2018 at 8:49 AM, finished with 128 posts and 54 votes.
  • [X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
    [X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
    [X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
    [X] Continue full experimentation. While the Lystheni's direction of research was utter madness, they weren't wrong about the sheer potential of this artifact. If it can be invented once, it can be invented again -- and you'd like to know if there's a countermeasure. Authorize a full and proper team, and tell them to get you answers.
    [X]Plan Sunshine
    --[X] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
    --[X] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
    --[X] All Lystheni military assets placed under your command.
    --[X] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
    --[X] A network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister).
    --[X] Full lystheni intelligence records
    --[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (claim the LBZ).
    --[X] Claim all Lystheni research sites. Allow joint access to vetted lystheni scientists on condition of full data disclosure.
    --[X] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (basically civilian Marshall Plan by Virmirean companies OR the FDO).
    [X][SISTER] Imprisonment. People in favor of the death penalty would object to this one, but those against would love it, so it comes out to as popular.
    [X][DAD] Imprison him in Virmirean space. More proportional to anything he's actually done, and Shereel asked that he live, so it's not a hard concession.
    [X] Write-In: Super limited experiments. Perform ONE course of experiments, with short exposure of a small number of volunteer subjects, using every sensor available to see if we can detect the mind-affecting mechanism. Run every known form of brain scan on the volunteers to see if we can spot signs of those who have been affected by every means, OTHER than simply monitoring their behavior. If we learn anything, put it on ice and figure out what to do next. If we can't detect the mind control process and can't detect signs of it in victims, throw it into the sun.
    [X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.​
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[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
 
[X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.

He who fights monsters should take care not to become a monster.
 
Spacegnom said:
Besides the general "I won't tell you whether there are Reapers in this quest." statement by the QM, no. Then again:
Everyone who assumes this is Reapertech: is there a WoG I missed that confirmed or hinted at this?
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Pretty sure Reapers are confirmed by the Win Condition.
PoptartProdigy said:
Your goal is twofold: to reach a certain level of galactic prominence -- more on that later -- and to survive the coming of the Reapers in 2186 CE.
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[X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
[X] Continue full experimentation. While the Lystheni's direction of research was utter madness, they weren't wrong about the sheer potential of this artifact. If it can be invented once, it can be invented again -- and you'd like to know if there's a countermeasure. Authorize a full and proper team, and tell them to get you answers.
 
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
 
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
 
Alliterate said:
Pretty sure Reapers are confirmed by the Win Condition.
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Yeah you are right, I got my ME-quest all bungled up. :oops:

Anyway, here is what made me think this isn't the Reapers:
PoptartProdigy said:
By the time Lystheni irregulars seized control of the platform, the researchers were in the process of attempting to overload its power core.
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Taking control of someone and then force them to destroy the artifact/ kill themselves sounds much more like the Leviathans than Indoctrination.
 
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