Voting is open
Bear in mind, the few direct examples of Reaper experimentation that went horribly wrong were conducted under the supervision of the Illusive Man, who has been a Reaper thrall since the First Contact War. The other major example is the Batarians, but we can attribute that more to a lack of forewarning that subverted the initial research team, who then exposed Batarian leadership.

Again, I don't recall any instance of research being conducted with both proper warning and a clean research team. In fact, the Thanix Cannon was developed and nothing seemed to go wrong, since the Council had proper warning from Shepard. Practically speaking, unless Reaper indoctrination is MUCH more dangerous than it was ever portrayed as in the franchise, I don't see why we can't safely study it from a distance with drones and sensors.

So there is one instance of a similar level of preparedness in canon that had a purely positive result...

okay put it on ice then. We just have to follow that example and we should be good. Proper reaper reverse engineering procedures are going to be invaluable. And then we should shortly have proper reaper resistance protocals for when we eventually fight them. We need these techs to win the end game. We can't win it without them. It is just that simple.
 
So, this is a Reaper artifact, right? Mind control based on proximity with no apparent means of propagation? Is there any reason not to fire it into the sun?

SO 4 is at least nominally Precursor ruins, and while the Reapers do (or at least, did in canon) have Indoctrination that doesn't mean any & all mind control is automatically their doing. I still don't trust it but I don't think we should be immediately assuming it's Reaper/Leviathan tech, especially given Poptart's known fondness for messing with our heads.
Plus, we saw what happened.

Despite handpicking for loyalty, it caused them to go nuts in.... 240 hours or so. IE, 10 days.

Which means we can just expose our people to it for, say, at most 5 days at a time. Set them up on a rotation. The fact that we have hard data on this makes the risk of suffering the same problem almost nil. Exciting new problems are of course always a possibility, which is one of the main arguments I can see in favor of plan "INTO THE FIERY ORB WITH YE" (along with the possibility of someone unsavory getting their hands on it).
 
Its not really fair to count the number of positive outcomes like that. There basically wasn't any time between ME1, when the wider galaxy was given access to Reaper artifacts, and ME3, when the invasion starts. Considering how slow research usually is, how secret this project would have been and how dangerous the Council knew it was, I'm not really surprised if no actual research had even started by the time shit hit the fan. Honestly, I'm surprised the Thanix Cannon was even developed so quickly, but, once Shepard warned the galaxy that the Reapers were just months away, the galaxy did a relatively great job at preparing with what little time they had.
 
Its not really fair to count the number of positive outcomes like that. There basically wasn't any time between ME1, when the wider galaxy was given access to Reaper artifacts, and ME3, when the invasion starts. Considering how slow research usually is, how secret this project would have been and how dangerous the Council knew it was, I'm not really surprised if no actual research had even started by the time shit hit the fan. Honestly, I'm surprised the Thanix Cannon was even developed so quickly, but, once Shepard warned the galaxy that the Reapers were just months away, the galaxy did a relatively great job at preparing with what little time they had.

I'm not trying to count successes, I'm looking at whether success is even reasonably feasible. The Thanix Cannon is a good point, but we don't know whether the pieces used to study Sovereign's gun gave off the indoctrination signal. This artifact doesn't even do anything else, so having any example of successfully studying the effect without going nuts would be nice, even if the study didn't succeed in any way.
 
I'm not trying to count successes, I'm looking at whether success is even reasonably feasible.

Well, that depends on what you consider a success. For me, I consider learning how it works and how to detect the big prize. Reversing it is not really a priority, nor is replicating it.

The Thanix Cannon is a good point, but we don't know whether the pieces used to study Sovereign's gun gave off the indoctrination signal. This artifact doesn't even do anything else, so having any example of successfully studying the effect without going nuts would be nice, even if the study didn't succeed in any way.


Again, its not really fair to ask for canon examples of something mundane like that, especially given the time constraints. We only have meta-understanding of how it works to go on and nothing suggests long-distance experimentation would be dangerous with proper warning and safety precautions. Also, I don't really care about practical technology right now, I just want more information on indoctrination.
 
So there is one instance of a similar level of preparedness in canon that had a purely positive result...

okay put it on ice then. We just have to follow that example and we should be good. Proper reaper reverse engineering procedures are going to be invaluable. And then we should shortly have proper reaper resistance protocals for when we eventually fight them. We need these techs to win the end game. We can't win it without them. It is just that simple.
There's also the Reaper programs that upgraded the Geth in ME3, and the M-597 Ladon missile launcher.
The M-597 Ladon blends human workmanship with Reaper technology to devastating effect. After the battle of the Citadel, Alliance intelligence studied fragments of Reaper-based code recovered from Sovereign. One of the few systems successfully decoded was that of face and object recognition; it was notably advanced, but considered academic until recently.

Desperately preparing for the Reaper invasion, the Alliance has identified that this recognition software can make a weapon differentiate between friend and foe. The result is the Ladon, a missile system that can survey the field, assign a homing warhead to each hostile, and then deliver incendiary payloads without accidentally targeting allies. It is sophisticated enough to avoid friendly targets even if they've changed out of uniform or grown facial hair since the last time the weapon was fired. Its major shortcoming is the time it takes to process this information before every launch, delaying the attack for a few critical moments while the trigger is held down.

The antipersonnel capability of the Ladon is fearsome, but the mythology Alliance soldiers have created around it makes it a contender for "most hated weapon." The targeting display system was adapted so quickly that alien alphanumeric characters are still visible around the edges, a constant reminder that it is partially of Reaper origin. Rumors abound that a Ladon can indoctrinate its owner if the soldier sleeps next to it or that it will hit friendly targets the first time it's used in the field against Reaper creatures. More than one Alliance unit has left Ladons at the bottom of a supply crate before heading on a mission, proof that superstition survives even in this advanced age.
Yeah there was a superstition around that it could indoctrinate, but said superstition was never proven despite people being on the lookout for such things.

I'm not trying to count successes, I'm looking at whether success is even reasonably feasible. The Thanix Cannon is a good point, but we don't know whether the pieces used to study Sovereign's gun gave off the indoctrination signal. This artifact doesn't even do anything else, so having any example of successfully studying the effect without going nuts would be nice, even if the study didn't succeed in any way.
We know it's possible to detect the effects of Indoctrination as the Protheans could do it(something that will require extensive study of indoctrinated individuals to reproduce) and the only way to figure out if it's possible to detect how Indoctrination happens or find a means to defend against it would be for an exhaustive amount of research to be done on technology that's known to have Indoctrination effects.

At the very least having the artifacts around and extensively documenting their effects will mean that modern races in the galactic community(in both Citadel Space and the Terminus) will know that it's possible to alter and effect the mind technologically, and that some precursor artifacts are capable of doing so and therefore they will be on the lookout for such things in the future rather then getting blindsided. To just shoot the artifacts into a sun and bury the information on them, pretending they didn't exist would be the same as if the people who discovered that some minerals are radioactive just buried their discovery out of fear that fear that people studying the minerals will get poisoned via a means they cant detect or defend against.
 
If it's Reaper, we need to destroy it. The Alliance military operation in Arrival had reasonable precautions for a Reaper artifact that they were aware existed and still ended up indoctrinated.

And we're supposed to believe that Salarians with tech several thousand years older managed to detect every way someone could be indoctrinated?

Can it be done? Yes. Do we have the tech for it? Almost certainly not.
 
To me the artifact sounds suspiciously as a desperate last-measure anti-Reaper device, made to break indoctrination and disrupt enemy thralls. Still, even if it's made by a race at the end of it's sucks it might be beyond us right now.
 
If it's Reaper, we need to destroy it. The Alliance military operation in Arrival had reasonable precautions for a Reaper artifact that they were aware existed and still ended up indoctrinated.

And we're supposed to believe that Salarians with tech several thousand years older managed to detect every way someone could be indoctrinated?

Can it be done? Yes. Do we have the tech for it? Almost certainly not.
Of course we don't. We would need to study the damn things first in order to figure out how they work and how to develop the means to detect them. Technology like that doesn't develop in a vacuum and it doesn't come about by anything less then several decades of exhaustive research.
 
Of course we don't. We would need to study the damn things first in order to figure out how they work and how to develop the means to detect them. Technology like that doesn't develop in a vacuum and it doesn't come about by anything less then several decades of exhaustive research.

And you think we can do that?

Are you sure you aren't indoctrinated? You're showing the signs. Arrogance, a belief that indoctrination is something that happens to other people, the belief that your mind is still your own...

Being serious, if people with tech thousands of years ahead of us couldn't work out how indoctrination works, then we won't be able to.

The tech difference is too great. It's like assuming that a person who has just recently learned how to bash someone's head in effectively with a rock will be able to safely fire a rocket launcher with no real instruction other than seeing how some others managed to get themselves killed.

The worst part is that all it takes is a single indoctrinated person to bring down the safeties, leading to exponential indoctrination. Then they claim that it's safe, that they discovered a blocker or a cure and the indoctrination spreads.

This tech is an armed, unexploded bomb. Every moment it exists is a moment it could go off. Unless we destroy it, it will go off eventually.
 
Of course we don't. We would need to study the damn things first in order to figure out how they work and how to develop the means to detect them. Technology like that doesn't develop in a vacuum and it doesn't come about by anything less then several decades of exhaustive research.

Okay, so what sort of in-character justification would you use to support studying it, since our character knows nothing about the Reapers?

"Studying it would let us know whether someone has already been affected."
"There may be more of these things with this sort of effect, and I want to be able to protect our researchers going forward."

(I have more, but they're mostly jokes)
 
And you think we can do that?

Are you sure you aren't indoctrinated? You're showing the signs. Arrogance, a belief that indoctrination is something that happens to other people, the belief that your mind is still your own...

Being serious, if people with tech thousands of years ahead of us couldn't work out how indoctrination works, then we won't be able to.

The tech difference is too great. It's like assuming that a person who has just recently learned how to bash someone's head in effectively with a rock will be able to safely fire a rocket launcher with no real instruction other than seeing how some others managed to get themselves killed.

The worst part is that all it takes is a single indoctrinated person to bring down the safeties, leading to exponential indoctrination. Then they claim that it's safe, that they discovered a blocker or a cure and the indoctrination spreads.

This tech is an armed, unexploded bomb. Every moment it exists is a moment it could go off. Unless we destroy it, it will go off eventually.

Okay, seriously, can we not with the Indoctrination metagaming? We don't know (IC or OOC) if that's actually what's going on here; IC we don't even know it's a possibility. There are valid arguments for throwing the damn thing into the sun anyway, but we shouldn't be writing off the research options based solely on OOC knowledge that may or may not even apply here.
 
For my money, I'd like to ask Durrahe what he thinks we should do if we want to keep it - obviously he wants to throw it into the sun and OOC that definitely seems the best idea, but IC this is 'weird mind control device' not 'herald of the robot doom-squid' so I think jumping straight to sun-launching is a bit of a knee-jerk reaction IC.

Leaning towards releasing the research papers and putting it on ice right now - leave the station somewhere hidden, declare the place a no-fly-zone, and send some Explorer Corps or whatever to check in on it every now and then, until we maybe have a better idea of how to investigate it or some bright spark comes up with a feasible sounding idea or whatever and it becomes worth dragging out of storage. Or we can foist it off on the Citadel - after giving them appropriate warnings about how dangerous it is, obviously.
 
Okay, seriously, can we not with the Indoctrination metagaming? We don't know (IC or OOC) if that's actually what's going on here; IC we don't even know it's a possibility. There are valid arguments for throwing the damn thing into the sun anyway, but we shouldn't be writing off the research options based solely on OOC knowledge that may or may not even apply here.

We have effects similar to indoctrination.

We are either in a setting where indoctrination exists or in a setting based off that.


If we ignore this knowledge and act as if there is no chance that this is a Reaper artifact that can indoctrinate then we clearly don't need our brains and should sign up to be Reaper Husks.


In quests, every decision is a mixture of OOC and IC information. That's just how things work. It's not a bad thing.

If you know but the character doesn't that they have a high chance of kicking an unexploded bomb, would you let them kick the weird metal thing just to avoid using your brain instead of the character's?
 
I would like to point out that we were informed that the Lystheni did perform rather stringent protocols to try and have it only affect their test subjects. The paranoid nation state bent on attempting to control these affects failed at keeping the affects contained only to their subjects. I would be all for trying to figure out the how of it working, but we would end up sacrificing people figuring it out.
 
Any arguments for not shooting the experiment into the nearest sun? Besides using it to research a way to counter it?
The best thing that I can come up with is that, potentially, tech derived from it could be used to 'fix' the Rachni.

If this isn't Reaper-tech and, since it encouraged rebellion against order rather than blind submission as Reaper-tech seemed to with the Batarians, this may have been a Precursor effort at countering Reaper Indoctrination.

May have, mind you. Big, big Maybe right there.
 
Last edited:
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
 
Last edited:
We have effects similar to indoctrination.

We are either in a setting where indoctrination exists or in a setting based off that.


If we ignore this knowledge and act as if there is no chance that this is a Reaper artifact that can indoctrinate then we clearly don't need our brains and should sign up to be Reaper Husks.


In quests, every decision is a mixture of OOC and IC information. That's just how things work. It's not a bad thing.

If you know but the character doesn't that they have a high chance of kicking an unexploded bomb, would you let them kick the weird metal thing just to avoid using your brain instead of the character's?

Okay, y'know what, let's just go straight to the source here.

@PoptartProdigy without commenting on this particular scenario (for obvious reasons), can you tell us whether in the abstract we're likely to encounter situations where using purely OOC knowledge about the Mass Effect universe is crucial to avoiding negative outcomes?
 
I'll vote for pretty much any option other than destroying it. It may be Reaper-tech, but in my humble opinion, it probably isn't.

Even if it is, though, it represents a great chance to go into studying Indoctrination with eyes wide open and aware of the dangers it represents. Whether or not it's Reaper-tech, we probably won't ever get another chance like this again, so...

[X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.

[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.

[X] Continue full experimentation. While the Lystheni's direction of research was utter madness, they weren't wrong about the sheer potential of this artifact. If it can be invented once, it can be invented again -- and you'd like to know if there's a countermeasure. Authorize a full and proper team, and tell them to get you answers.
 
Okay, so what sort of in-character justification would you use to support studying it, since our character knows nothing about the Reapers?

"Studying it would let us know whether someone has already been affected."
"There may be more of these things with this sort of effect, and I want to be able to protect our researchers going forward."

(I have more, but they're mostly jokes)
The fact that the artifacts are capable of effecting and altering the minds of those around them via unknown means is all the reason for studying them, because they are demonstrating something nobody has ever seen before. It's like finding uranium and discovering that people around it end up poisoned via means they cant detect or understand. They only way to figure out what's going on(and discover radioactivity) is to start researching the stuff(even if it means you have a few marie curie's in the early years).

And you think we can do that?

Are you sure you aren't indoctrinated? You're showing the signs. Arrogance, a belief that indoctrination is something that happens to other people, the belief that your mind is still your own...

Being serious, if people with tech thousands of years ahead of us couldn't work out how indoctrination works, then we won't be able to.

The tech difference is too great. It's like assuming that a person who has just recently learned how to bash someone's head in effectively with a rock will be able to safely fire a rocket launcher with no real instruction other than seeing how some others managed to get themselves killed.

The worst part is that all it takes is a single indoctrinated person to bring down the safeties, leading to exponential indoctrination. Then they claim that it's safe, that they discovered a blocker or a cure and the indoctrination spreads.

This tech is an armed, unexploded bomb. Every moment it exists is a moment it could go off. Unless we destroy it, it will go off eventually.
Bullshit. The Alliance never had the chance to truly study the effects of Indoctrination. Mass Effect is not some easy scifi universe where it's only a matter of months(or even just a few hours) to go from an unprecedented discovery to practical applications, not outside copy and past engineering. Reaper Indoctrination technology is the type of thing that requires a bare minimum of decades of exhaustive research, the few months(at best) that the Alliance was able to do in a secret, isolated facility before the Batarians started messing around wouldn't have even allowed them the chance to do an in-depth study of the effects of Indoctrination in sentient beings.

Will there be casualties while studying the technology? Yes, just like with the RL early study's of radioactivity the researchers will have no idea what so ever of how the Indoctrination effects work or how to protect against it, despite the researchers best efforts there will be marie curie's, that's inevitable. That's just the natural result in the scientific study of dangerous phenomena, especially in the early days where nobody knows anything.

But shooting the things into a sun while going "La la la la la, it cant get me now, I'm perfectly safe" wont help at all. In fact it do exactly fuck all when it comes to combating Indoctrination because 2000 years from now no study into Indoctrination technology will have happened, no means of detecting the effects of Indoctrination in people will exist(outside of that Prothean VI on Thessia), no understanding on how it happens, no means of protecting against it will have been developed, and even the knowledge that it's possible will have been long forgotten. Because if you think that all that could get developed in a vacuum without having long term study of Reaper Indoctrination technology then you clearly must have flunked all your science classes because that's not how science works.


[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
 
Okay, y'know what, let's just go straight to the source here.

@PoptartProdigy without commenting on this particular scenario (for obvious reasons), can you tell us whether in the abstract we're likely to encounter situations where using purely OOC knowledge about the Mass Effect universe is crucial to avoiding negative outcomes?


And why is if it's crucial relevant? At what point have I been saying that knowledge of the setting is the only thing that'll save us?

I've been saying it's useful. That it's smart. That it's normal. But where have I been saying it's the only way?

It's mind control tech that we don't have control of and that we have no real idea of how it works. We don't even have the basics to build off of. People several thousand years from now didn't have those basics.

Knowing this, with the included small chance it's Reaper Tech, throwing it into the Sun is reasonable. The only way to actively study to gain those basics is through the blood of innocents, because to assume that anyone fed into mind control tech is ever completely free of it is folly. So to me our only options are to throw it into the Sun or to ice it in the hopes that we find those basics through another way.
 
People several thousand years from now didn't have those basics.

I mean, this part also only applies in the event that it's Reaper tech. On the other hand, if it's tech from our Precursors (who never appeared in canon at all), we obviously have no idea how a canon-era techbase would have handled it.
 
I mean, this part also only applies in the event that it's Reaper tech. On the other hand, if it's tech from our Precursors (who never appeared in canon at all), we obviously have no idea how a canon-era techbase would have handled it.


While it is possible, I have severe doubts that both these Precursors and the Reapers managed to both create mind control tech and yet somehow have them both work on completely different tech paradigms.

The basics of mind control tech probably remain the same even if it isn't Reaper Tech.

To many probablies and ifs in this post. Really, we just don't know enough.
 
Last edited:
[X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
 
What would happen if we'd fire the artifact on a Rachni planet? Anarchistic queens?
 
Voting is open
Back
Top